40 replies to this topic

[caston]

Hello,

I was reading the how stuff works article on anger:

http://health.howstu...ther/anger1.htm

And there's a lot of particularly interesting stuff on page 2. A little about the parts of the brain, endocrine system and the hormones related to anger and some of the severe health affects that anger can have.

I am prone to anger. I get this from my mother. So it is about genetics and upbringing. I'm an avoidant and I primarily respond to conflict with a flight response but sometimes anger does get the better of me particularly if I've already invoked the flight response and they are still confronting me the flight response turns into a severe fight response that is difficult for me to control.

Sometimes it would be better just to be angry with the person to start with than to put energy into reasoning with them if they are being unreasonable and then have the anger come out at a later time on someone that had nothing to do with it.

Sometimes it's even better to cry than to get angry. I know that from previous girlfriends I had I much prefer the ones that cried when I screwed up than the ones that got angry at me. I didn't feel like that at the time of course but on reflection that's the way I feel. At least when they cry you feel bad and comfort them. When they get angry you just get angry back and it could escalate from there.

So I'm wondering if there is anything either in food or in supplements that can help the parts of the brain that stop the angry monster from taking over, things that could help reduce the damage to our bodies caused by anger or even supplements that may make it easier for us to cry instead of getting angry.

Although it sounds like a wussy thing to cry but it may be a more interesting and perhaps actually progressive and positive thing to do than getting angry which may solve nothing.

Edited by caston, 17 June 2009 - 01:23 PM.

[4eva]

There is a homeopathic remedy for anger, supressed anger. Many people learn growing up not to express their anger but to stuff it. This can lead to a passive-agressive approach where the anger is expressed only after it has built up to an explosive level.

I've used this remedy and it works when you feel you're on edge. It is something you could try yourself if you're interested.

[caston]

4eva,
Grrrr!
No don't get started on homepathy you .. oh wait sorry that anger thing that i'm supposed to be controlling again sorry

OK i'm not a believer in homeopathy but what remedy do you recommend?

I was thinking along the lines of non-homeopathic supplements like acetylcholine where it says in the howstuff works article

"Chronically angry people may not have the mechanism to turn off these effects. They may not produce acetylcholine, a hormone which tempers the more severe effects of adrenaline. "

[NDM]

anything that boosts serotonine levels should also reduce anger; If I were you I would get started with an assortment of glycine + gotu kola, ashwagandha, and melissa/lemon balm. All quite cheap!
In my experience all these items mellow you down - you'll be calm, relaxed, taking it easy...maybe too easy...

[caston]

Thanks NDM, might be worth trying out. I might like becoming a beatnik

What about things that might help your logical part of your brain overcome angryness?


"But at the same time, blood flow is increasing to the frontal lobe, specifically the part of the brain that's over the left eye. This area controls reasoning and is likely what's keeping you from hurling a vase across the room. These areas generally balance each other out quickly; according to some research, the neurological response to anger lasts less than two seconds"

or something that you could use to tweak your emotional response so that you actually begin to cry instead of becoming angry?

Edited by caston, 17 June 2009 - 05:24 PM.

[k10]

Avoid dairy, and have an IGG food sensitivity test which can test for a ton of other food sensitivities.

Dairy causes me to have intense anger for absolutely no reason at all. You'd be surprised what kind of an effect food sensitivities/allergies can have on your mood.

See, "Brain Allergies";
http://www.alternati...inallergies.htm

[JLL]

After a big mug of rooibos tea or a glass of red wine, I find it impossible to get angry. A mellow, pleasant haze engulfs me.

[caston]

After a big mug of rooibos tea or a glass of red wine, I find it impossible to get angry. A mellow, pleasant haze engulfs me.

That's interesting that you mention alcohol because some people do become very violent when they are drunk.. I'm not sure if they are angry and violent or just violent. I would imagine certain parts of the brain that enable rational thought and control /prevent violent urges are impaired in those people when they drink. The people that have the opposite affect must have the opposite part of their brain affected.

Edited by caston, 18 June 2009 - 09:36 AM.

[Logan]

Low dose lithium. You could do extended release lithobid once a day at 150 to 300 mgs. A plus of taking lithium is that there are potential life extending benefits of lithium supplementation. Lithium acts as an immunostimulant and neuroprotector. It also increases grey matter(if you are lacking any or lost any over the year) and promotes neurogenesis. You won't have any issues with toxicity at these lower doses.

I would also recommend therapy. That may annoy you but the truth is, your anger is coming from somewhere for some reason. Unless you deal with it or learn to channel it properly, it will always get the best of you.

Why is there a spell check on words that are spelled correctly?..annoying.

Edited by morganator, 18 June 2009 - 10:11 AM.

[StrangeAeons]

Be careful, though I certainly believe there are dispositions of the psyche that are induced through heredity and anatomical/physiological aspects of the brain, it doesn't entirely let you bypass the psychological paradigms. One mantra regarding anger is that, "depression is anger turned towards oneself". In that vein I should note that I had a very violent temper even in preschool and only managed to (partially) subdue this by high school-- at which point the bout of depression which still follows me today started. I don't allege to know what the source of all this anger is, or if it's simply a "physiologically based disposition"; but if you find something in the long term that suppresses your anger you may end up with something even worse.

[caston]

StrangeAeons:

What about crying?

I used to cry a lot when I was a kid. I can even remember crying on my first day of high school because I was at my friends house and he got in trouble with his parents for something. I felt like it sort of ruined the starting high school experience and while I was waiting while his parents yelled at him I had a really good cry.

There was a story in the news a few months ago about an air hostess was unable to give the prime minister a specific airline meal. Our prime minister (of Australia) Kevin Rudd yelled at her.


Imagine being an air hostess and having the prime minister yelling at you. You'd be worried about losing your job and all kinds of stuff. She responded by having a good cry.

http://www.smh.com.a...90403-9lbp.html

Now what are the other ways she could have responded?

She could have got angry and this would have likely got her fired. She could have zoned out and repressed her anger and bottled it up to later take it out on someone else or her self.


I spent a year working in a technical support call center for the incumbent national telco and probably got yelled and screamed at multiple times a work day yet I never excused myself and went an had a little cry.

Would I be a healthier and happier person if I did?

http://health.howstu...ther/crying.htm

The third type of tears is emotional tears. It all starts in the cerebrum where sadness is registered. The endocrine system is then triggered to release hormones to the ocular area, which then causes tears to form. Emotional tears are common among people who see Bambi's mother die or who suffer personal losses.

The phrase "having a good cry" suggests that crying can actually make you feel physically and emotionally better, which many people believe. Some scientists agree with this theory, asserting that chemicals build up in the body during times of elevated stress. These researchers believe that emotional crying is the body's way of ridding itself of these toxins and waste products.

In fact, one study collected both reflex tears and emotional tears (after peeling an onion and watching a sad movie, respectively). When scientists analyzed the content of the tears, they found each type was very different. Reflex tears are generally found to be about 98 percent water, whereas several chemicals are commonly present in emotional tears [Source: The Daily Journal. First is a protein called prolactin, which is also known to control breast milk production. Adrenocorticotropic hormones are also common and indicate high stress levels. The other chemical found in emotional tears is leucine-enkephalin, an endorphin that reduces pain and works to improve mood. Of course, many scientists point out that research in this area is very limited and should be further studied before any conclusion can be made

You know how some people just appear to be always happy? Do something upsetting to an always happy person and I guarantee you that they will cry.

Perhaps that is the secret.

Is there a way we can tweak our emotional responses so that we cry instead of expressing or repressing anger?

Edited by caston, 18 June 2009 - 03:48 PM.

[adamh]

I'd be careful about using lithium. It could have side effects. An herb I've been hearing about that I'd like to try is mulungu. It is a sedative narcotic, completely legal and helps with sleep. I think I'll get the extract rather than the herb.

Some supplements and stimulants can make you over aggressive and more prone to anger.

[lynx]

Crossword puzzles.
Online poker--impulse control.
Anything to increase the strength of your PFC.

[StrangeAeons]

caston:
we're touching on some incredibly complex subject material, a good deal of which is still in the air, when it comes to personality, stress responses, and what can be modified behaviorally vs. chemically; I will tell you that I have heard multiple times from therapists and psychologists that crying as a catharsis (ideally in a controlled environment to avoid repercussions) is considered emotionally healthy. However I will also tell you from the same sources that sadness and anger, though they can be caused by the same stimuli, are very different emotions. If you naturally feel anger from something, it's very unlikely you can alter your response to that stressor so that you will feel sad instead. Some people may use a facade of anger to mask sadness, I suppose, but the initial reaction is something that's very difficult to reprogram. Generally it's considered ideal to seek a constructive venue for your anger, so that you can suppress it when socially inappropriate and release it in a controlled setting (much like crying). Physical exercise, especially weights, contact sports, running, etc are considered venues for constructive release of anger.

Of course, I'm just telling you things I've heard from therapists, psychologists, and health class. If you've got something more profound like a depression or other mental illness (as in my case), then you may find all of this information of *ahem* limited value (and sometimes extremely frustrating to listen to). But if this is just sort of one isolated trait you're looking to gain better control of, seeking the proper venues for your emotions seems to be the key.

[StrangeAeons]

Crossword puzzles.
Online poker--impulse control.
Anything to increase the strength of your PFC.

Double-edged sword. Sometimes anger stems from logic; and I don't think I've ever heard (or will hear) a psychologist suggest online poker for anger issues.
EDIT: to elaborate, gambling is linked to reward behavior, which is different than anger. Not the same kind of impulse.

Edited by StrangeAeons, 18 June 2009 - 07:35 PM.

[yoyo]

fix the deficiency first

practice loving

your local (non-fundamentalist) religious group can sometimes help as well as personal mental practice

[StrangeAeons]

fix the deficiency first

practice loving

your local (non-fundamentalist) religious group can sometimes help as well as personal mental practice

I wouldn't contend anger is a deficiency of love; on the contrary, passionate people tend to be strongly predisposed to both. Likewise there are people who are not very inclined (or susceptible) to religious thinking who don't have any significant issues with anger; and there are people who are moderately religious that have issues with temper. I'd call religion fairly skew to the issue with the exception of those who are completely psychologically malleable.

[Logan]

From my experience in psychotherapy and some psychology courses I've taken, anger can very simply stem from not getting what we needed as children; proper love and nurture. Not being loved will make any child hate themselves and feel inward and outward anger. Then, if you have any predisposition toward mental illness, the anger is that much harder to control or process in a healthy way.

As far as lithium goes, I seriously doubt a low dose will give any healthy person noticeable side effects or health issues.

StrangeAeons, you are right that passionate people are predisposed to feeling more angry about things. They are also more likely to react to not being loved with anger. There is a way to make things more complicated than they really are. You are a very very smart person. I agree with most of what you say. Not that you need me to. And, I know things are very complicated. That said, sometimes there are some very basic principles that apply to all of humanity. Everyone has anger in them, even those that got most of what they needed. Most of us did not get what we needed and we are angry about it. You may think I'm oversimplifying things, I don't believe that I am. This is a reality that most of us do not want to face. One of the most difficult things to do in life is to get to the root of anger and sadness and deal with it. That is what we have denial. Denial, while it may protect us, it also prevents us from being able to progress and move forward. Your right about keeping anger at bay, it is not a good thing. That is why staying in denial about the truth is not a good thing either. My abnormal psychology professor and my therapist both said that denial is the most powerful coping mechanism. They both agreed that even the most intelligent people will have a difficult time overcoming the state of denial they have been in for so long.

I do agree that the cause any type of psychological issue is complicated. That is why the best explanation is usually one that involves the bio-psycho-social dynamic.

Caston, I think that the really happy stable minded people out there get angry also. They just have a different way of channeling that anger. I think if a person that appeared to be happy all of the time cried instead of getting angry, they most likely were not very stable or happy inside.

There is a way of channeling your anger and refining it so that does not just go everywhere and out of control. Unfortunately, I believe the only way to do this is through therapy. You have to get to the bottom of what you are angry about and begin to deal with it. Then, you take all of your anger and focus it on one thing and one thing only. This is not easy. Then again, the best long term solutions are usually the most difficult. I'm not doing a good job of articulating this, my mind has been a train wreck for quite a while now.

It is not easy to find a good therapist who can guide you and help you begin to give yourself what you need. I think that is why so many have bad experiences and bad opinions of psychotherapy.

I would also recommend for anyone to think about group therapy. This may be one of the best ways to learn about yourself and how you can have better relationships. I will say it is hard to find two very good psychotherapists with phd's that hold group therapy sessions.

Edited by morganator, 19 June 2009 - 12:10 AM.

[caston]

While trying to as polite as possible i'm going to completely avoid any advice to see any sort of therapist or counciling. I believe that most mental problems occur due to suppression of sexual urges but that's not what this thread is about.

I'm still pretty keen to try the "crying game" as a bit of experiment. If no one has any ideas on supplements (or something maybe even a TENS device) to help me cry more easily then i'll probably look it up.

[Logan]

While trying to as polite as possible i'm going to completely avoid any advice to see any sort of therapist or counciling. I believe that most mental problems occur due to suppression of sexual urges but that's not what this thread is about.

I'm still pretty keen to try the "crying game" as a bit of experiment. If no one has any ideas on supplements (or something maybe even a TENS device) to help me cry more easily then i'll probably look it up.

Not trying to push any buttons. I'm just curious as to why you are opposed to dealing with things that may be inside of you and causing some of things that you are having issues with? Sorry man, I'm just curious.

How can you think that our childhood does not have a major impact on how our brains are wired emotionally?

Some sexual urges are a result of deep seated anger. Sorry if I'm not respecting your wishes for this thread. Maybe I am out of line. If you have a quick answer that you don't mind sharing I would be interested to hear it. If not, I understand.

Why not try a low dose of lithium? You won't have to worry about your kidneys or your thyroid. And, you may benefit from Lithium in other ways that contribute to living a healthier longer life. I just think you may feel better. I don't think a low dose of lithium will totally cover up your anger or inhibit your ability to cry. It may just make it a bit easier to do what you want to. I doubt there are any other supplements that will help with something like anger. High EPA fish oil? I have heard piracetam puts some people in a good mood.

I'm all for crying, if you can get yourself to use this form of coping, at the right place and time of course. I still think finding a better way to channel your anger would benefit you the most.

Edited by morganator, 19 June 2009 - 05:07 AM.

[lbarber4]

Start lifting weights and meditating.

[caston]

What if it was an increasing trend that more and more people were responding to an angry confrontation by bursting into tears?

Let's say it's always appropriate to have a cry. Every time life gets you down have a cry. Every time someone makes unreasonable demands from you have a cry. Every time someone tries to hussle you for sex have a cry. Every time someone tries to get your last dollar out of you have a cry. Every time you get interrupted by relentless telemarketers have a cry. Every time someone keeps trying to talk you into something or letting them have or use something of yours and you don't want to and you've already said no a hundred times instead of resorting to yelling and screaming it them have a cry. When people dismiss your line of work and tell you that it's worthless and irrelevant have a cry. When people try to undercut you and get work out of you without paying you fairly have a cry. When the price of living is ridiculously higher than what people are willing to pay you for your work have a cry.
When you go into a shop and all the prices are jacked up beyond belief have a cry.

When people try to get you to drink more than you're willing to drink have a cry. When people try to brain wash you with religious, marketing or other assorted dribble have a cry.

When a cop pulls you over burst into tears. Every time someone puts you down, misjudges you, jumps to conclusions, excludes, ignores or doesn't invite you have a cry and so on.

After all that then have a laugh.

Edited by caston, 19 June 2009 - 08:41 AM.

[GoodFellas]

Start lifting weights and meditating.

Lifting weights just get's your testo up which doesn't help against anger;) Meditating is probably great though for those who are interested in that.

Btw, what about Theanine?

[caston]

Yeah if i've had a particularly heated day and or I need to get up early the next day I take L-Theanine before bed. It helps me sleep.

i'm not particularly going for sedated though.. just to be an individual that is far less prone to grinding teeth and getting impatient and snapping when I get asked really dumb questions and of course knowing how to respond in the least destructive and most creative way when faced with an irrational confrontation.

Edited by caston, 19 June 2009 - 01:45 PM.

[caston]

Interesting I did have a bit of a cry... when I read some of the comments to this article about a baby being born prematurely.

http://www.news.com....1-36398,00.html

[imarobot]

I've been experimenting with high doses of iodine (1,000% to 4,000% daily value) for suspected sub-clinical hypothyroidism. An unexpected side-effect is that I'm much calmer -- almost no anxiety or other negative emotional episodes.

Also consider blood sugar. Dips in blood sugar can cause anger in some people.

Glucose metabolism was measured among 49 violent males who were also antisocial and impulsive. The 17 offenders who committed at least one new violent crime during the 8 years had lower levels of glycogen than 40 normal male controls and those who did not commit another crime. All offenders and controls were around the same age and of similar weight and BMI (basal metabolic index). link

Edited by imarobot, 19 June 2009 - 10:49 PM.

[StrangeAeons]

blood sugar and thyroid are things that can be measured with fairly routine labs; but in the absence of other clinical symptoms (which would be featured more prominently in the manifestations of both hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism). It's typically hyperthyroidism that predisposes a person to spontaneous hypoglycemia.

[imarobot]

blood sugar and thyroid are things that can be measured with fairly routine labs; but in the absence of other clinical symptoms (which would be featured more prominently in the manifestations of both hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism). It's typically hyperthyroidism that predisposes a person to spontaneous hypoglycemia.

Not quite. Hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism are quite often paired in people. The reason isn't clear, but chronic inflammation from another source such as Celiac could be one reason.

People can clearly display the symptoms of hypothyroidism while blood tests show everything to be normal or normal enough. Yet when the hypothyroid symptoms are treated, the person feels normal again. This suggests that the blood tests -- or the interpretation of those tests -- aren't the final answer.

Edited by imarobot, 21 June 2009 - 12:31 AM.

[StrangeAeons]

on the first count, you're now talking about a very specific phenomenon, and to point in that direction on the basis of one "symptom" which the OP even considers quite possibly a personality trait is decidedly looking at a zebra, assuming there is even a "pathology" to this situation in the first place. Additionally, the manifestations of hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism function on different biological rhythms. Glucose levels most obviously fluctuate with diet and exposure to stress, while thyroid levels have a fairly reliable circadian rhythm. Hypothyroidism most commonly manifests as depression, while hypoglycemia should manifest with decreased cognitive function and confusion, regardless of the particular mood it induces.

On the second, that's definitely news to me; there are instances of antidepressant augmentation with thyroid hormone in the absence of hypothyroidism, but that doesn't necessarily mean that individuals who respond have hypothyroidism; you can give testosterone to people with normal T levels and they may still "benefit" from it, though potentially with long term detriment.
As per normal or "normal enough", that's really just pointing out the inadequacies of reference ranges. Yes, somebody who technically falls "WNL" but is borderline low might benefit from thyroid. A competent endocrinologist should identify this. If there's some sort of study regarding somebody who's had a full workup of TSH, T3, and T4, all clearly within normal limits, and still carrying a diagnosis of hypothyroidism I would definitely like to see some proof of this.

I'll reiterate this: technicalities aside I think it's a zebra to look at these factors for somebody simply talking about a hot temper.

[tlm884]

A temporary fix may be a beta blocker (propranolol) to calm you down or something like taurine or magnesium or bacopa or a walk load of adaptogens to help with stress. (Bacopa, Ashawaghana, Rhodila, Eleutrho, Ginseng)