56 replies to this topic

[100YearsToGo]

The new atheist thinks on his bed before sleeping, I am more intelligent than my fellow men.
I have freed myself from this God fiction. And he goes happily to sleep.

Only a couple of night later does he slowly realize. He is now also free of morality. No longer good and evil exists. There is only opinion on the matter. No longer a higher power to be accountable to. Yet his upbringing and his culture, keeps his actions in check.
But unstoppably it creeps upon him that he can now do as he pleases. Who has moral authority to condemn him? Men like him?
If he is only more powerfull or smarter than them nothing will stop him. Certainly there is nothing spiritually wrong with his actions, as the spirit does not exist. Sooner or later the moral fabric of society breaks down, leading to the death of men.

[goodman]

ouch....christians are more likely to go to jail and commit crime than atheists...enough said

[forever freedom]

ouch....christians are more likely to go to jail and commit crime than atheists...enough said

I partially agree.. but what about communists and their massacres?




If the christian meme is to go, there should be another one, a good one, already waiting on the line to enter.. because a bad one that doesn't include any belief in God or an afterlife in which one is to pay for his sins is very dangerous.

[goodman]

ouch....christians are more likely to go to jail and commit crime than atheists...enough said

I partially agree.. but what about communists and their massacres?




If the christian meme is to go, there should be another one, a good one, already waiting on the line to enter.. because a bad one that doesn't include any belief in God or an afterlife in which one is to pay for his sins is very dangerous.

communists' massacres are solely based on a political ideology; they didnt kill because they didnt believe in god! and dont let me dig up all the massacres under the name of christianity/religion, which are basically 90% of all massively anti-human "evil" incidents ever happened on our planet...
we dont need a "meme" (whatever the f* that is lol)... if the majority of humanity gets to be so smart to realize there's no god,
they will automatically also realize that doing harm to others is not the way to go and also due to our law enforcement isn't beneficial at all

[bran319]

ouch....christians are more likely to go to jail and commit crime than atheists...enough said

Correlation does not equal causation.

As well, there are more christians than atheists. So of course the numbers will be skewed. Another confound is that one can easily claim to be christian but actually be atheist in how they truly act and believe.

[goodman]

ouch....christians are more likely to go to jail and commit crime than atheists...enough said

Correlation does not equal causation.

I know but it slightly dismisses the thesis posted by the threadstarter

As well, there are more christians than atheists. So of course the numbers will be skewed. Another confound is that one can easily claim to be christian but actually be atheist in how they truly act and believe.

the keyword is "more likely", so we're talking about a ratio...duhhh

[Connor MacLeod]

The new atheist thinks on his bed before sleeping, I am more intelligent than my fellow men.
I have freed myself from this God fiction. And he goes happily to sleep.

Only a couple of night later does he slowly realize. He is now also free of morality. No longer good and evil exists. There is only opinion on the matter. No longer a higher power to be accountable to. Yet his upbringing and his culture, keeps his actions in check.
But unstoppably it creeps upon him that he can now do as he pleases. Who has moral authority to condemn him? Men like him?
If he is only more powerfull or smarter than them nothing will stop him. Certainly there is nothing spiritually wrong with his actions, as the spirit does not exist. Sooner or later the moral fabric of society breaks down, leading to the death of men.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[Singularity]

The new atheist thinks on his bed before sleeping, I am more intelligent than my fellow men.
I have freed myself from this God fiction. And he goes happily to sleep.

Only a couple of night later does he slowly realize. He is now also free of morality. No longer good and evil exists. There is only opinion on the matter. No longer a higher power to be accountable to. Yet his upbringing and his culture, keeps his actions in check.
But unstoppably it creeps upon him that he can now do as he pleases. Who has moral authority to condemn him? Men like him?
If he is only more powerfull or smarter than them nothing will stop him. Certainly there is nothing spiritually wrong with his actions, as the spirit does not exist. Sooner or later the moral fabric of society breaks down, leading to the death of men.

Hear Ye! Hear Ye! Hear Ye some old news from the depths of time!!!

Pssst. I've got news for ya buddy. All those people who are atheists? They don't follow your Christian value rules anyway. That's right. Of course, they all pretend like they do for fear of getting chastised, but believe you me, they're all doin their own thing... you catch my drift? And, on top of thaaat, 99% of the religious people aren't following their own rules to begin with. Ya, so everyone is walking around pretending to be on their best behavior, but it's all a sham. Everyone's playing the same freggin' game and it's tell'em what they want to hear and don't get caught.

When is humanity going to start being more honest instead of continuously sweeping things under the rug. This is why humans are such a mediocre species.

[Connor MacLeod]

The new atheist thinks on his bed before sleeping, I am more intelligent than my fellow men.
I have freed myself from this God fiction. And he goes happily to sleep.

Only a couple of night later does he slowly realize. He is now also free of morality. No longer good and evil exists. There is only opinion on the matter. No longer a higher power to be accountable to. Yet his upbringing and his culture, keeps his actions in check.
But unstoppably it creeps upon him that he can now do as he pleases. Who has moral authority to condemn him? Men like him?
If he is only more powerfull or smarter than them nothing will stop him. Certainly there is nothing spiritually wrong with his actions, as the spirit does not exist. Sooner or later the moral fabric of society breaks down, leading to the death of men.

Hear Ye! Hear Ye! Hear Ye some old news from the depths of time!!!

Pssst. I've got news for ya buddy. All those people who are atheists? They don't follow your Christian value rules anyway. That's right. Of course, they all pretend like they do for fear of getting chastised, but believe you me, they're all doin their own thing... you catch my drift? And, on top of thaaat, 99% of the religious people aren't following their own rules to begin with. Ya, so everyone is walking around pretending to be on their best behavior, but it's all a sham. Everyone's playing the same freggin' game and it's tell'em what they want to hear and don't get caught.

When is humanity going to start being more honest instead of continuously sweeping things under the rug. This is why humans are such a mediocre species.

Your posts are almost begging to be put into ALL CAPS.

[bran319]

ouch....christians are more likely to go to jail and commit crime than atheists...enough said

Correlation does not equal causation.

I know but it slightly dismisses the thesis posted by the threadstarter

As well, there are more christians than atheists. So of course the numbers will be skewed. Another confound is that one can easily claim to be christian but actually be atheist in how they truly act and believe.

the keyword is "more likely", so we're talking about a ratio...duhhh

Right, so your silly little statement is meaningless in relation to the point you were hoping to make.

[Ben Simon]

communists' massacres are solely based on a political ideology; they didnt kill because they didnt believe in god!

This is incorrect. Dialectical Materialism has to do with the subversion of Judeo Christian principles. There is a well established link between the atheism of the communists and their moral worldview. People tend to want to have their cake and eat it too on this issue by denying that link. But it doesn't work that way. Religion can empower people to do evil... but so can atheism. Facts are facts.

[100YearsToGo]

Atrocities can be commited by powerfull organized people, whatever they are organized around. Religion is only another subject to organize around. And it is always us against them. This is of course bad stuff.

I'm talking about another type of problem here. The destruction of OUR morality. Not that of some enemy outside. The case where morality breaks down between us. between friends, between husband and wife, between father and son etc...How does the atheist plan to solve this problem?

The judeo christan laws are meant to preserve our society (ours..probably not theirs). You shall not kill, not steal, etc...OR GOD WILL PUNISH YOU. HE WILL FIND YOU AND PUNISH YOU EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE DOES. AND YOU WILL ALSO NOT ENTER HEAVEN. A pretty good motivator.

What will preserve the atheist's society?

[kismet]

Only a couple of night later does he slowly realize. He is now also free of morality. No longer good and evil exists. There is only opinion on the matter. No longer a higher power to be accountable to. Yet his upbringing and his culture, keeps his actions in check.

Welcome to the real world! Now, does it really matter if the tooth fairy or society itself is going to punish me for being a bad boy? Please think this thought through (TTTT).

Religion can empower people to do evil... but so can atheism. Facts are facts.

Well, so can looking at the teletubbies. The only difference is that the most important religions explicitely (or indirectly) support violence and religious elitism, whereas atheism is just an umbrella term for non-theism and strictly speaking as nonviolent as teletubbies. It is generally argued that it was not atheism but an atheistic personal cult that enabled these great attrocities. In fact atheism per se cannot empower to do anything, atheism is indeed a lack of belief. I don't think that was the word you wanted to use, although, I get your point (and think it is well-countered by saying that that stalinisms was a cult, a pseudo-religion).

If the christian meme is to go, there should be another one, a good one, already waiting on the line to enter.. because a bad one that doesn't include any belief in God or an afterlife in which one is to pay for his sins is very dangerous.

You mean the truth is not good enough for you?

I can only recommend some healthy education about the basic tennets of atheism: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Edited by kismet, 26 June 2009 - 11:18 PM.

[Singularity]

Atrocities can be commited by powerfull organized people, whatever they are organized around. Religion is only another subject to organize around. And it is always us against them. This is of course bad stuff.

I'm talking about another type of problem here. The destruction of OUR morality. Not that of some enemy outside. The case where morality breaks down between us. between friends, between husband and wife, between father and son etc...How does the atheist plan to solve this problem?

The judeo christan laws are meant to preserve our society (ours..probably not theirs). You shall not kill, not steal, etc...OR GOD WILL PUNISH YOU. HE WILL FIND YOU AND PUNISH YOU EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE DOES. AND YOU WILL ALSO NOT ENTER HEAVEN. A pretty good motivator.

What will preserve the atheist's society?

So, you are condoning lying to people for their own good?

[kismet]

The judeo christan laws are meant to preserve our society (ours..probably not theirs). You shall not kill, not steal, etc...OR GOD WILL PUNISH YOU. HE WILL FIND YOU AND PUNISH YOU EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE DOES. AND YOU WILL ALSO NOT ENTER HEAVEN. A pretty good motivator.

Yeah, they also effecitively state the following: you shall condemn homosexuals, excommunicate doctors who save 9-year old raped girls without condeming the rapist, and enable the spread of bigotry and AIDS by condemning safer-sex. Oh, and there's also quite a lot of stoning infidels, raping, killing other nations and slavery. Don't forget that you can read the bible either way, i.e. both the "you can stone infidels" and "Turning the other cheek" interpretations are fair game -- do you know why most modern christians trend towards the second? Because an external non-biblical source dictates present day morality and condemns the former. Yes, morality is not derived from the bible which is way too contradictory. Dawkins explains it pretty well in The God Delusion. 

Edited by kismet, 27 June 2009 - 12:10 PM.

[Dmitri]

The judeo christan laws are meant to preserve our society (ours..probably not theirs). You shall not kill, not steal, etc...OR GOD WILL PUNISH YOU. HE WILL FIND YOU AND PUNISH YOU EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE DOES. AND YOU WILL ALSO NOT ENTER HEAVEN. A pretty good motivator.

Yeah, they also effecitively state the following: you shall condemn homosexuals, excommunicate doctors who save 9-year old raped girls without condeming the rapist, and enable the spread of bigotry and AIDS by condemning safer-sex. Oh, and there's also quite a lot of stoning infidels, raping, killing other nations and slavery. Don't forget that you can read the bible either way, i.e. both the "you can stone infidels" and "Turning the other cheek" interpretations are fair game -- do you know why most modern christians trend towards the second? Because an external non-biblical source dictates present day morality and condemns the former. Yes, morality is not derived from the bible which is way too contradictory. Dawkins explains it pretty well in The God Delusion. 

Isn't Dawkins a bit too extreme and anti-religion to be fair in his criticisms? Anyway, while I don't dismiss that people who followed a religion have committed atrocities, is it really safe to say religion made them do it? I believe lust for power and money were the main reason and religion was merely used to manipulate the followers who were less educated or knowledgeable in regards to the religion. So, religion is not without fault since it was used as a tool to manipulate, but I don't think it was the main cause or propel people to commit such crimes.

Edited by Dmitri, 27 June 2009 - 12:58 PM.

[kismet]

Isn't Dawkins a bit too extreme and anti-religion to be fair in his criticisms?

No, he's just being true to his simple and well-reasoned philosophy: there most likely is no god, definitely no Abrahamic god in the biblical sense. I suppose atheists are accused of being "extreme" because they use pretty strong words to describe the sheer stupidity of some religious people & institutions (e.g. the pope). No sane atheist would be unfair towards religion, we wouldn't mind if gods existed; the problem is just that there is no evidence.

Anyway, while I don't dismiss that people who followed a religion have committed atrocities, is it really safe to say religion made them do it?

No, which is the reason why I hate this argument. It's irrelevant anyway. The moral implications do not change the truth value of a proposition.

[Ben Simon]

In fact atheism per se cannot empower to do anything, atheism is indeed a lack of belief.

This is a common argument, but I think it's a red herring. Atheism is a lack of belief in one thing by virtue of a belief in another. What's more while atheism may be a 'non belief', it's not the beliefs of religion that are the real problem - it's the culture. A culture of atheism has just as much destructive potential as does a culture of religion.

Let me speak clearly, I have no objection to atheism - it's perfectly sensible based on the evidence, or lack thereof. But it behoves us to know our history, and to attempt to understand it. Communism didn't occur within a philosophical vacuum... it's genesis is atheism, which lead to materialism. I'm more or less a materialist myself, but materialism can be very dangerous when used as the basis for a moral philosophy.

[kismet]

In fact atheism per se cannot empower to do anything, atheism is indeed a lack of belief.

This is a common argument, but I think it's a red herring. Atheism is a lack of belief in one thing by virtue of a belief in another. What's more while atheism may be a 'non belief', it's not the beliefs of religion that are the real problem - it's the culture. A culture of atheism has just as much destructive potential as does a culture of religion.

Let me speak clearly, I have no objection to atheism - it's perfectly sensible based on the evidence, or lack thereof. But it behoves us to know our history, and to attempt to understand it. Communism didn't occur within a philosophical vacuum... it's genesis is atheism, which lead to materialism. I'm more or less a materialist myself, but materialism can be very dangerous when used as the basis for a moral philosophy.

There's definitely more to that argument. It takes a lot of twisting to prostitute the "philsophy" of atheism to justify homicide; if you are going that far you will also manage to prostitute science (but no one's saying that science is dangerous apart from a few lunatics) or any other unrelated belief and non-belief in this world. They did it to Darwin, they can do it to anyone. The Abrahamitic religions on the other hand literally enable if not dictate homicide in many of their texts, while they contradict the same in other texts. Without an external source of morality you can't even interpret those texts.
Therefore we argue that people wouldn't be "good" in an atheist world, but necessarily - to some undetermined degree - "better".

Maybe you really need to substitute "atheism" for "materialism" even if the former correlates with the latter most of the time, Atheism per se cannot be a cause of anything as it's a lack of belief. Although, I'm not sure if I'd agree even if you replace "atheism" with "materialism". I don't see how materialism, or even nihilism for that matter, can be a dangerous moral philosophy? AFAIK we're only left with materialism as most other concepts are simply untenable. We don't seem to have a choice even if materialism was problematic...

Edited by kismet, 28 June 2009 - 01:56 PM.

[Singularity]

...Anyway, while I don't dismiss that people who followed a religion have committed atrocities, is it really safe to say religion made them do it?...

Dude, read the freakin' bible for God's sake before you waste bandwidth with your ill-informed opinions. God COMMANDS the Israelites to murder, rape, etc., their enemies; steal land, mutilate genitals, etc..

Get a clue.

[Edit] Here, read this (Exodus Killing) for chrissakes. Go to verse 27. This is just one small sample. The 3000 people they killed were NOT even enemies! God just said to kill them

Edited by Singularity, 28 June 2009 - 07:58 PM.

[Singularity]

Atheism is a lack of belief in one thing by virtue of a belief in another.

That is a total BS comment! Atheism is not a belief system! Atheism is an ABSENCE of belief!

This is another trick the theists try to use. They try to bring atheism down to their level and make atheism out to be a belief system on equal footing with any other religion based on faith, intuition, passion, wishful thinking, etc..

The Preacher says: Therefore, young naive people of the world, atheism is just another choice based on whatever you FEEL is true... they don't know anymore than anyone else... except us who have FELT the lord lift them up! What have the atheists felt??? Oh, I assure you it's evil! Atheists are just evil selfish materialists who have been led astray by Satan! So, be afraid of those atheists; be very afraid.

[Ben Simon]

Atheism is a lack of belief in one thing by virtue of a belief in another.

That is a total BS comment! Atheism is not a belief system! Atheism is an ABSENCE of belief!

This is another trick the theists try to use. They try to bring atheism down to their level and make atheism out to be a belief system on equal footing with any other religion based on faith, intuition, passion, wishful thinking, etc..

The Preacher says: Therefore, young naive people of the world, atheism is just another choice based on whatever you FEEL is true... they don't know anymore than anyone else... except us who have FELT the lord lift them up! What have the atheists felt??? Oh, I assure you it's evil! Atheists are just evil selfish materialists who have been led astray by Satan! So, be afraid of those atheists; be very afraid.

You completely missed my point. Surprise, surprise.

[Singularity]

You completely missed my point. Surprise, surprise.

Oh yeah? What was your point? Do you wish to rephrase something you said?

[Dmitri]

...Anyway, while I don't dismiss that people who followed a religion have committed atrocities, is it really safe to say religion made them do it?...

Dude, read the freakin' bible for God's sake before you waste bandwidth with your ill-informed opinions. God COMMANDS the Israelites to murder, rape, etc., their enemies; steal land, mutilate genitals, etc..

Get a clue.

[Edit] Here, read this (Exodus Killing) for chrissakes. Go to verse 27. This is just one small sample. The 3000 people they killed were NOT even enemies! God just said to kill them

True, but that was the primitive mentality of the time. What I said was that religion was not the sole cause of such atrocities; gaining power, maintaining it or having money had as much to do with it and religion was used to manipulate or justify the actions most often (example Catholic Church). I think it's foolish to place the entire blame soley on religion for the atrocities of the past and present. Science has had it's fair share of atrocities as well especially psychiatry (early treatments), big pharma downplaying the side effects of their drugs or writing false articles (ghost writing), how the most prestigious medical institutions behaved during the AIDS crisis in the early 80s and as kismet mentioned Darwin's theories were used for gains that were not so admirable as well. Despite, this I don't see people attack those evils as vehemently as they do with religion.

[Luna]

there doesn't have to be higher power for things to count as right and wrong... that's just silly!

[Singularity]

...Anyway, while I don't dismiss that people who followed a religion have committed atrocities, is it really safe to say religion made them do it?...

Dude, read the freakin' bible for God's sake before you waste bandwidth with your ill-informed opinions. God COMMANDS the Israelites to murder, rape, etc., their enemies; steal land, mutilate genitals, etc..

Get a clue.

[Edit] Here, read this (Exodus Killing) for chrissakes. Go to verse 27. This is just one small sample. The 3000 people they killed were NOT even enemies! God just said to kill them

True, but that was the primitive mentality of the time. ...

Uh, ok, it sounds like you are saying God's word was influenced by Man's state of mind and, hence, the Bible cannot be trusted since it was written by primitive Man. Is that true? If so, then how do you separate the good from the chaff?

[100YearsToGo]

there doesn't have to be higher power for things to count as right and wrong... that's just silly!

I was waiting for that to pop up.

What is right and what is wrong is always a concensus which is then enforced by law. You can actually see what is considered right and wrong shift. Gay mariage was "wrong" 20 years ago. It is now "right" in some societies. There are more examples.

Supposedly God is never wrong or never shifts, so God's laws tend to be more stable. You can take a peek at the roman catholic church, who follows that mantra. Examples; No condoms, no abortion, no gay marriage etc..).

What would an atheist society look like? What wil its law be based on. Would its law be stable? Or would it be oportunistic and unstable in nature?

BTW I hope people understand I'm not trying to proof that God exist by saying that there wil be no moral order without him. I'm just saying that we will probably have no moral order without a belief in a higher moral being. The main reason for this is, that there will be nothing stopping you in your mind. Most of us are first stopped by our moral values (traditionaly based on judeo/muslim/christian values, even if you don't believe in God) and only if this fails by the fear of punishment. If an atheist think things through, he will discover there is no good/evil, hence no moral right or wrong. When he discovers this, we are done. I agree that most atheist don't follow this to the ultimate consequences. That is only because they are still held back by traditional values that are based on judeo/muslim/christian values. Isn't that contradictory? And how long wil that hold?

Edited by 100YearsToGo, 30 June 2009 - 09:14 PM.

[Singularity]

BTW I hope people understand I'm not trying to proof that God exist by saying that there wil be no moral order without him. I'm just saying that we will probably have no moral order without a belief in a higher moral being. The main reason for this is, that there will be nothing stopping you in your mind. Most of us are first stopped by our moral values (traditionaly based on judeo/muslim/christian values, even if you don't believe in God) and only if this fails by the fear of punishment. If an atheist think things through, he will discover there is no good/evil, hence no moral right or wrong. When he discovers this, we are done. I agree that most atheist don't follow this to the ultimate consequences. That is only because they are still held back by traditional values that are based on judeo/muslim/christian values. Isn't that contradictory? And how long wil that hold?

I partially agree.

First, absolutely 100% right that morality is RELATIVE! Of course it is. Notice how there is an excuse to do absolutely anything... killing, torture, etc..

Secondly, however, in an all atheist society, every person will still have there own moral code and people who think alike will flock together and families will still pass down their own moral code. The Ten Commandments are just common sense. It's just not smart to kill people for no reason because you will soon learn that the friends and family of the one you just killed will soon be hunting you down and all kinds of ruckus will ensue. No one really likes chaos. Of course there will still be moral codes, but there will be a DIVERSITY of moral codes.

Thirdly, everyone believes what they want to believe ANYWAYS! Everyone gravitates towards the religion that makes the most sense to them. So, the only real change we would see in a 100% pure atheistic society is people would base their moral values on personal preference, but they will never be able to get away with the excuse that they have been given a God-give right to carry out their actions.

Forth, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that religion gives the world some kind of moral standard to which everyone can agree and atheism would throw everything into chaos. There is no consensus on moral values today and there never will be. People are arguing all the time about what is right and wrong. Atheists, on the other hand, are not blindly bound to their convictions and are free to change their mind whenever new evidence or thoughts present themselves, or the times change. There would be less radical stubborn f*ckers in an all atheist society.

[Dmitri]

...Anyway, while I don't dismiss that people who followed a religion have committed atrocities, is it really safe to say religion made them do it?...

Dude, read the freakin' bible for God's sake before you waste bandwidth with your ill-informed opinions. God COMMANDS the Israelites to murder, rape, etc., their enemies; steal land, mutilate genitals, etc..

Get a clue.

[Edit] Here, read this (Exodus Killing) for chrissakes. Go to verse 27. This is just one small sample. The 3000 people they killed were NOT even enemies! God just said to kill them

True, but that was the primitive mentality of the time. ...

Uh, ok, it sounds like you are saying God's word was influenced by Man's state of mind and, hence, the Bible cannot be trusted since it was written by primitive Man. Is that true? If so, then how do you separate the good from the chaff?

There are believers that argue the holy spirit guides people to the truth or it could be like you said common sense. I'm agnostic when it comes to religion but I do believe in the spiritual realm; in the soul, which is why I don't think cryonics will work. Also, I still hold some respect for the Catholic Church.

[kismet]

The argument you are advancing has been destroyed so thoroughly and so deeply, it's not even funny anymore. Your post is so friggin ridiculous. I'm calling Poe. I will go on to deliver a good dose of pharyngula-style bashing. So be aware, swear words may follow. I don't remember if that is ok in the main forums, but I hope we can make an exception for particularly silly posts. (god fucking damn it why don't you actually read some of the atheistic literature before spouting nonsense?)

there doesn't have to be higher power for things to count as right and wrong... that's just silly!

I was waiting for that to pop up.

What is right and what is wrong is always a concensus which is then enforced by law. You can actually see what is considered right and wrong shift. Gay mariage was "wrong" 20 years ago. It is now "right" in some societies. There are more examples.

Supposedly God is never wrong or never shifts, so God's laws tend to be more stable. You can take a peek at the roman catholic church, who follows that mantra. Examples; No condoms, no abortion, no gay marriage etc..).

Yeah, great example. Bringing up the static laws of the bigoted church that enable great crimes and discrimination and make every educated man despise organised religion.

What would an atheist society look like? What wil its law be based on. Would its law be stable? Or would it be oportunistic and unstable in nature?

It would be oportunistic and unstable like nature and the universe itself. Or to be more exact: adaptable. Static laws do not work in an ever-changing world. The church and organised religion demonstrate that fact very well.

BTW I hope people understand I'm not trying to proof that God exist by saying that there wil be no moral order without him. I'm just saying that we will probably have no moral order without a belief in a higher moral being.

Why are you talking in the future tense? There are more unbelievers than believers, for every billion of pseudo-christians (as only some of them practise what they preach) you have several billions of people who do not believe in this particular variety of religion or do not believe at all.

The main reason for this is, that there will be nothing stopping you in your mind. Most of us are first stopped by our moral values (traditionaly based on judeo/muslim/christian values, even if you don't believe in God) and only if this fails by the fear of punishment.

You are trying hard to piss us good people off, aren't you? If there's nothing stopping you from raping little baby girl, other than the wrath of your imaginary good, then I pitty you. You know, I don't feel like raping cute, little baby girls because I don't stand to benefit from it and I'm against killing people and I don't want to fuck up my life and ... and..., you know stuff like that (all those relative morals)?
On the other hand, if I was a crazy rapist (like those Irish clergymen that have been abusing children for decades) no imaginary or non-imaginary belief would stop me if the desire was strong enough. No, my morals are NOT based on your damned judeo-christian values because I'm not a bigoted fundamentalist. All my "morals" are just transient, unstable and relative concepts that have to be seen in the context of society, so fucking what?
Furthermore, the judeo-christian morals are not religious per se, they are simply based on the outdated morals of those times with some religious additions.

Please, better not get us started on muslim values which inspire even greater abuse than christian values.

If an atheist think things through, he will discover there is no good/evil, hence no moral right or wrong. When he discovers this, we are done. I agree that most atheist don't follow this to the ultimate consequences. That is only because they are still held back by traditional values that are based on judeo/muslim/christian values. Isn't that contradictory? And how long wil that hold?

I think You should think this thought through (TTTT). If there's no right and wrong there's nothing stopping you from raping little baby girls, but there is nothing forcing you to rape little baby girls either. I cannot imagine why exactly you should choose to rape little baby girls if you have an unlimited number of other options (well, maybe we're prone to harming others but if it is our nature religion won't do much to stop it and - surprise, surprise - ancient religious texts are full of killing, raping and abusing). If you value your earthly life you won't do it and if there are no gods more people start to value their own lives.
After all there are such "meaningless" concepts like the Golden Rule. They do not require a god. http://en.wikipedia...._of_reciprocity

Then you are also assuming that people can just choose to believe; just choose their little Pascal Wager. How can any rational person justify believing in this PARTICULAR BRAND of crazy and not another? (hint: most scientists cannot as shown by official statistics) Why judeo-christian, why not something completely different? There's zero evidence for a judeo-christian god. You cannot force free people to believe that crap and so your argument breaks down, because it is both unncessary (i.e. morals can be relative and adaptable and work perfectly well) and impossible (i.e. you cannot force people to believe). The deistic notion of god cannot be disproven, but the deistic concept does not dictate morals.
Even if we wanted to base our morals on some higher moral code, it's impossible, because the outdated judeo-christian moral codes are completely arbitrary and there's no evidence of any gods (hint: therefore we cannot deduce whether the gods we have to worship prefer little baby girl raping satanists or nice people).

There are believers that argue the holy spirit guides people to the truth or it could be like you said common sense. I'm agnostic when it comes to religion but I do believe in the spiritual realm; in the soul, which is why I don't think cryonics will work. Also, I still hold some respect for the Catholic Church.

Sorry, but I'm starting to lose respect I had for you (from your posts I assumed you are a rational person). Why the fuck do you value the Catholic Church? Is there anything this despicable bunch has done that could not have been done by Humanists? How can you say that cryonics does not work if it has been shown to work in metazoa and human organs, do you somehow argue from the unscientific notion that humans are different from animals? Have you ever heard something of teacup agnosticism?

Edited by kismet, 02 July 2009 - 05:59 PM.