• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo

The Singularity is not near?


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Biogod Entity

  • Guest
  • 11 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Xewkija(gozo), Malta

Posted 08 July 2009 - 09:23 AM


I found this rebuttal to the singularity being near on wired.com and just wanted opinions on it from people who understand these things better than me. I don't buy this for one bit simply because I have yet to see any peer-reviewed evidence supporting the claims in it. It reminds me alot of creationist arguments against evolution. Alot of "RECENT EVIDENCE SHOWS (x600)" but never any peers involved.

Here's the article:

Many computer scientists take it on faith that one day machines will become conscious. Led by futurist Ray Kurzweil, proponents of the so-called strong-AI school believe that a sufficient number of digitally simulated neurons, running at a high enough speed, can awaken into awareness. Once computing speed reaches 1016 operations per second — roughly by 2020 — the trick will be simply to come up with an algorithm for the mind. When we find it, machines will become self-aware, with unpredictable consequences. This event is known as the singularity.

These techno-utopians should pay closer attention to developments in neuroscience. Sure, artificial intelligence techniques like neural networks have led to better spam filters. But research suggests that the current approach to AI won't result in a conscious machine on anything like Kurzweil's timeline. The latest evidence shows that, when it comes to consciousness, the brain simply doesn't work the way computer scientists think it does. Almost nothing is known about how the brain produces awareness, and current models of brain function don't accord with the little that is known.

Singulatarians would respond by predicting that exponentially growing scientific progress will fill the gap. This notion sweeps under the rug a messy philosophical problem: An algorithm is only a set of instructions, and even the most sophisticated machine executing the most elaborate instructions is still an unconscious automaton. Philosophy aside, a constellation of recent scientific findings indicates that no matter how fast CPUs become in future decades, they'll be no more aware than a toaster. Building a conscious machine will likely require paradigm shifts in brain science — conceptual leaps that, by definition, won't come on a schedule. Here, then, are five reasons why the singularity is not near.

The mind is synchronized, but no one knows how. New York University neurologist E. Roy John has established that the hallmark of consciousness is a regular electrical oscillation, or gamma wave, readily detected by electrodes attached to the scalp. More recently, Wolf Singer and his colleagues at the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research in Frankfurt, Germany, confirmed that brain cells flicker in time with the gamma wave. This flickering takes place among widely dispersed neurons throughout the brain with no apparent spatial pattern. What keeps these ever-shifting, widely distributed groups of cells in sync? Neurochemical reactions take place too slowly to explain the phenomenon. This mystery alone seems to demand a wholesale rethinking of AI's underpinnings.

Current brain maps are of little use in explaining awareness. For more than a century, the brain cell, or neuron, has been seen as a tiny switching station with multiple signals coming in through many input wires, known as dendrites, but only one signal going out through a single output wire, or axon. AI is based on this circuitry model. When it comes to consciousness, though, the model has its wires crossed. Singer has discovered that gamma waves — the indicators of consciousness — issue from the neuron's supposed inputs, not its output. Confusing matters further, researchers, including Takaichi Fukuda and Toshio Kosaka of Japan's Kyushu University, have revealed that many inputs interconnect, forming an altogether different set of networks. In other words, the vast strides made by neuroscientists in their attempt to map the brain may reveal little about consciousness.

The brain is faster than singularity theorists think. AI assumes that the neuron is analogous to a single computer bit. But it turns out that each neuron is supported by a supercomputer's worth of additional circuitry. MIT bioengineer Andreas Mershin and UCLA psychologist Nancy Woolf have independently confirmed the importance of microtubules, the scaffolding that undergirds each neuron, in animal memory and learning. At the University of Alberta, physicist Jack Tuszynski has developed computational models suggesting that these supposedly dumb structures could be smarter than previously recognized. Stuart Hameroff at the University of Arizona argues that trillions of computations per second take place in the microtubules of each neuron. If he's right, the brain's speed is 1028 operations per second — a trillion times faster than is generally thought — which pushes the vaunted singularity back by decades.

The on/off switch isn't where it's supposed to be. As it happens, doctors have a handy way to flick the switch of consciousness: anesthesia. When you're under, awareness is disabled, but everything else in the brain operates normally. So how does anesthesia work? Hameroff has come up with a simple model in which anesthetic drugs interact almost exclusively with microtubules; the rest of the neuron plays only a marginal role. This model is the closest anyone has come to a unified theory of anesthesia — yet it flatly contradicts the notion that consciousness arises from firing neurons.

Understanding consciousness may require new physics. In his 1989 book, The Emperor's New Mind, Oxford physicist Roger Penrose proposed that the classical physics ruling neurobiology can't explain consciousness. The mind, he declared, relies on the baffling mechanics of quantum physics. Although his point remains controversial, evidence in its favor is accumulating. Most recently, physicist Efstratios Manousakis at Florida State University showed that certain confounding quirks of visual perception are most easily explained by quantum mechanics. If consciousness is indeed a quantum phenomenon, then AI becomes an entirely new game. The singularity will have to wait for engineers to catch up.

#2 Ghostrider

  • Guest
  • 1,996 posts
  • 56
  • Location:USA

Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:40 PM

It's not a matter of computing power that is the issue. It's the intelligent software that will most limit the singularity. Also, the human mind is a product of evolution. Things that are evolved are usually not very efficient and contain a lot of unnecessary garbage. How much of the mind is actually being used?

I found this rebuttal to the singularity being near on wired.com and just wanted opinions on it from people who understand these things better than me. I don't buy this for one bit simply because I have yet to see any peer-reviewed evidence supporting the claims in it. It reminds me alot of creationist arguments against evolution. Alot of "RECENT EVIDENCE SHOWS (x600)" but never any peers involved.

Here's the article:

Many computer scientists take it on faith that one day machines will become conscious. Led by futurist Ray Kurzweil, proponents of the so-called strong-AI school believe that a sufficient number of digitally simulated neurons, running at a high enough speed, can awaken into awareness. Once computing speed reaches 1016 operations per second — roughly by 2020 — the trick will be simply to come up with an algorithm for the mind. When we find it, machines will become self-aware, with unpredictable consequences. This event is known as the singularity.

These techno-utopians should pay closer attention to developments in neuroscience. Sure, artificial intelligence techniques like neural networks have led to better spam filters. But research suggests that the current approach to AI won't result in a conscious machine on anything like Kurzweil's timeline. The latest evidence shows that, when it comes to consciousness, the brain simply doesn't work the way computer scientists think it does. Almost nothing is known about how the brain produces awareness, and current models of brain function don't accord with the little that is known.

Singulatarians would respond by predicting that exponentially growing scientific progress will fill the gap. This notion sweeps under the rug a messy philosophical problem: An algorithm is only a set of instructions, and even the most sophisticated machine executing the most elaborate instructions is still an unconscious automaton. Philosophy aside, a constellation of recent scientific findings indicates that no matter how fast CPUs become in future decades, they'll be no more aware than a toaster. Building a conscious machine will likely require paradigm shifts in brain science — conceptual leaps that, by definition, won't come on a schedule. Here, then, are five reasons why the singularity is not near.

The mind is synchronized, but no one knows how. New York University neurologist E. Roy John has established that the hallmark of consciousness is a regular electrical oscillation, or gamma wave, readily detected by electrodes attached to the scalp. More recently, Wolf Singer and his colleagues at the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research in Frankfurt, Germany, confirmed that brain cells flicker in time with the gamma wave. This flickering takes place among widely dispersed neurons throughout the brain with no apparent spatial pattern. What keeps these ever-shifting, widely distributed groups of cells in sync? Neurochemical reactions take place too slowly to explain the phenomenon. This mystery alone seems to demand a wholesale rethinking of AI's underpinnings.

Current brain maps are of little use in explaining awareness. For more than a century, the brain cell, or neuron, has been seen as a tiny switching station with multiple signals coming in through many input wires, known as dendrites, but only one signal going out through a single output wire, or axon. AI is based on this circuitry model. When it comes to consciousness, though, the model has its wires crossed. Singer has discovered that gamma waves — the indicators of consciousness — issue from the neuron's supposed inputs, not its output. Confusing matters further, researchers, including Takaichi Fukuda and Toshio Kosaka of Japan's Kyushu University, have revealed that many inputs interconnect, forming an altogether different set of networks. In other words, the vast strides made by neuroscientists in their attempt to map the brain may reveal little about consciousness.

The brain is faster than singularity theorists think. AI assumes that the neuron is analogous to a single computer bit. But it turns out that each neuron is supported by a supercomputer's worth of additional circuitry. MIT bioengineer Andreas Mershin and UCLA psychologist Nancy Woolf have independently confirmed the importance of microtubules, the scaffolding that undergirds each neuron, in animal memory and learning. At the University of Alberta, physicist Jack Tuszynski has developed computational models suggesting that these supposedly dumb structures could be smarter than previously recognized. Stuart Hameroff at the University of Arizona argues that trillions of computations per second take place in the microtubules of each neuron. If he's right, the brain's speed is 1028 operations per second — a trillion times faster than is generally thought — which pushes the vaunted singularity back by decades.

The on/off switch isn't where it's supposed to be. As it happens, doctors have a handy way to flick the switch of consciousness: anesthesia. When you're under, awareness is disabled, but everything else in the brain operates normally. So how does anesthesia work? Hameroff has come up with a simple model in which anesthetic drugs interact almost exclusively with microtubules; the rest of the neuron plays only a marginal role. This model is the closest anyone has come to a unified theory of anesthesia — yet it flatly contradicts the notion that consciousness arises from firing neurons.

Understanding consciousness may require new physics. In his 1989 book, The Emperor's New Mind, Oxford physicist Roger Penrose proposed that the classical physics ruling neurobiology can't explain consciousness. The mind, he declared, relies on the baffling mechanics of quantum physics. Although his point remains controversial, evidence in its favor is accumulating. Most recently, physicist Efstratios Manousakis at Florida State University showed that certain confounding quirks of visual perception are most easily explained by quantum mechanics. If consciousness is indeed a quantum phenomenon, then AI becomes an entirely new game. The singularity will have to wait for engineers to catch up.



sponsored ad

  • Advert

#3 n25philly

  • Guest
  • 88 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Holland, PA

Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:48 PM

I don't think we will have the singularity by 2020, but we will definately have AI that is powerful enough to learn and think. It likely won't be up to the speed of human level yet, but unless memristors end up being a complete failure, I don't see how it can't happen by then

#4 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:05 PM

The mind is synchronized, but no one knows how. New York University neurologist E. Roy John has established that the hallmark of consciousness is a regular electrical oscillation, or gamma wave, readily detected by electrodes attached to the scalp. More recently, Wolf Singer and his colleagues at the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research in Frankfurt, Germany, confirmed that brain cells flicker in time with the gamma wave. This flickering takes place among widely dispersed neurons throughout the brain with no apparent spatial pattern. What keeps these ever-shifting, widely distributed groups of cells in sync? Neurochemical reactions take place too slowly to explain the phenomenon. This mystery alone seems to demand a wholesale rethinking of AI's underpinnings.


Gamma oscillations arose spontaneously in Blue Brain. I think this guy is not terrifically well informed. In Wired? Imagine that...

Edited by Mind, 03 August 2009 - 09:14 PM.
fixed quote


#5 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,146 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:20 PM

Also, I am amazed at how easily people dismiss advances in AI over the last couple decades. Not just spam filters, AI is for all practical purposes in control of energy distribution, most stock trades, the internet, traffic, communication systems, etc... Without out it, the vast majority of us would be lost or dead. Most of it is on autopilot (the unabomber's nightmare is coming true). Yet a few people claim it is nothing...yawn. I don't know if or when true AGI will be developed, but the advances that have been made - just in my short lifetime - have been amazing.

#6 RighteousReason

  • Guest
  • 2,491 posts
  • -103
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:29 PM

... the real point about the Singularity is that one would want to derive the core, productive algorithms of intelligence and consciousness, and merely implement these in computer code. I think the whole idea of trying to replicate in a computer the biological processing of the human brain down to the molecular level or whatever will never amount to anything more than an academic exercise. That would be like trying to use evolutionary algorithms to evolve an intelligence on a computer, or other such insanity that sounds like the idea of Hugo de Garis.

-me

There are lots of people who think that if they can just get enough of something, a mind will magically emerge. Facts, simulated neurons, …, raw CPU power, whatever. It's an impressively idiotic combination of mental laziness and wishful thinking.

- Michael Wilson

There are three schools of Singularity thought. This article argues primarily against one of them. Please read these articles

http://yudkowsky.net...ularity/schools

I find it very annoying, therefore, when these three schools of thought are mashed up into Singularity paste. Clear thinking requires making distinctions.

But what is still more annoying is when someone reads a blog post about a newspaper article about the Singularity, comes away with none of the three interesting theses, and spontaneously reinvents the dreaded fourth meaning of the Singularity:

Apocalyptism: Hey, man, have you heard? There’s this bunch of, like, crazy nerds out there, who think that some kind of unspecified huge nerd thing is going to happen. What a bunch of wackos! It’s geek religion, man.


http://www.accelerat...erintelligence/

The point of this article is to remind the reader that there are three schools of Singularity thought — this is so fundamental, but so few people are aware of it. It should be the first thing that people learn when introduced to the concept. As I argued in 2007, the word “Singularity” has lost all meaning, but if we’re stuck with it, we should at least pull apart three of the major meanings it tends to have.


Edited by RighteousReason, 03 August 2009 - 09:41 PM.


#7 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:32 PM

I found this rebuttal to the singularity being near on wired.com and just wanted opinions on it from people who understand these things better than me. I don't buy this for one bit simply because I have yet to see any peer-reviewed evidence supporting the claims in it. It reminds me alot of creationist arguments against evolution. Alot of "RECENT EVIDENCE SHOWS (x600)" but never any peers involved.

You don't buy Ray's claims or their's? I seriously hope the former, if you want your post to make sense, because it's much rather Ray who's going against the mainstream.

No, the singularity is not near, even if we apply Kurzweilian optimism, it's still ungodly 40+ years away.

Edited by kismet, 03 August 2009 - 09:33 PM.


#8 Delorean

  • Guest
  • 78 posts
  • 23

Posted 05 August 2009 - 01:13 PM

I found this rebuttal to the singularity being near on wired.com and just wanted opinions on it from people who understand these things better than me. I don't buy this for one bit simply because I have yet to see any peer-reviewed evidence supporting the claims in it. It reminds me alot of creationist arguments against evolution. Alot of "RECENT EVIDENCE SHOWS (x600)" but never any peers involved.

You don't buy Ray's claims or their's? I seriously hope the former, if you want your post to make sense, because it's much rather Ray who's going against the mainstream.

No, the singularity is not near, even if we apply Kurzweilian optimism, it's still ungodly 40+ years away.


Around 36 years according to Kurzweil.

#9 Akagi

  • Guest
  • 12 posts
  • 0

Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:17 PM

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. "

- Benjamin Disraeli

Statistically speaking, disposable razors will have an infinite number of blades in 2015 and we will have reached the Schick singularity.

Posted Image

Now, that power-law curve predicts 14-bladed razors by 2100, but that’s not the interesting curve. The interesting one is the hyperbolic one, for two reasons:

1. It matches the real-world data.

and

2. It goes to infinity in 2015.

So how are you going to get an asymptotically-accelerating number of blades on a razor? Why, you need super-technology on a level that impinges upon god and transcends the human imagination to do that.

So there you have it - proof of the approaching Vingean Singularity, sooner than anyone expected it, clear as the chin on your face.

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#10 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 18 September 2009 - 12:17 AM

So there you have it - proof of the approaching Vingean Singularity, sooner than anyone expected it, clear as the chin on your face.

Now that is a great post!




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users