28 replies to this topic

[j03]

Would supplementing DHEA be androgenic? I.E. Would it directly, or indirectly make one more masculine looking?

[OneScrewLoose]

Would supplementing DHEA be androgenic? I.E. Would it directly, or indirectly make one more masculine looking?

I don't know too much about it, but from what I read there really wasn't much of an effect for it in that regard. Some were even worried that it might bump up estrogen. Don't know if that was a valid concern though.

[j03]

I don't know too much about it, but from what I read there really wasn't much of an effect for it in that regard. Some were even worried that it might bump up estrogen. Don't know if that was a valid concern though.

I read that too. It could either raise estrogen, or testosterone. But I also read that DHEA-S is the primary hormone in the development of masculine characteristics

[stephen_b]

I supplement 7-keto dhea. My testosterone is just fine, but my dhea-s was low when last measured.

[meat250]

the 7-keto version does not convert to estrogen


Meat

[pycnogenol]

Is 7-Keto DHEA available in a 10 mg per capsule strength? The lowest strength I've seen is 25 mg per capsule.

Edited by pycnogenol, 28 July 2009 - 04:53 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Supplementing with 50mg of DHEA raised my levels of estrone way above normal, it was definitely metabolizing into a ton of estrogen. Also dropped my testosterone about 40%, experiment was a total failure.

[rwac]

Supplementing with 50mg of DHEA raised my levels of estrone way above normal, it was definitely metabolizing into a ton of estrogen. Also dropped my testosterone about 40%, experiment was a total failure.

I can second that.
My DHEA levels and Testosterone were low, so I started supplementing it.
It seemed to help for a bit.

Now, stopping DHEA actually improved libido. So I bet it was converting to estrogen.

[katzenjammer]

My understanding is that transdermal DHEA converts into test at a far higher rate, and into estradiol at a far lower rate, than oral. Do be careful with hormones like this though.

[aikikai]

Is there any way to boost DHEA production without supplementing DHEA? Any amino acids, herbs? I am 26 and I am a bit afraid of getting decline in then DHEA levels. By the age 30 you have 50% lower DHEA than you had when you where 20 years old.

[tunt01]

pretty sure pregnenolone will up your DHEA. not sure if its worth messing with though.

[aikikai]

pretty sure pregnenolone will up your DHEA. not sure if its worth messing with though.

I live in a country where hormones are not legal to buy without prescription, so I am looking for some natural choices.

7-Keto DHEA, does it have same effects as DHEA, or is it just a "wannabe-hormon-supplement-with-similar-effects"?

[2tender]

pretty sure pregnenolone will up your DHEA. not sure if its worth messing with though.

I live in a country where hormones are not legal to buy without prescription, so I am looking for some natural choices.

7-Keto DHEA, does it have same effects as DHEA, or is it just a "wannabe-hormon-supplement-with-similar-effects"?

Wild Yam, and perhaps other Yams. Early on, Wild Yam extracts were regarded as DHEA potentiators. Continued use of DHEA will increase estrogens in men, and lead to libido decrease and subsequent ED, thats why low dose cycling is prudent. JMO

[markymark]

To say it a bit schematic: DHEA is for the most part a woman's supplement. It increases testosterone in women = increased libido and wellbeing, increased bone density etc.
Before taking DHEA as a woman: check basal DHEA-Sulfate levels. The dosage of DHEA (5 mg, 10, mg, 15, 20 or 25...) is dependent on the basal DHEAS-level. Then, check DHEAS 3-5 h after taking the morning DHEA together with testosterone after, say 3-6 weeks. If the 3-5 h-DHEAS is in the upper third of a 20-30 year old woman and same with testosterone, all is good and you might be on "auto-pilot....."

There are, however, some men, who might benefit from DHEA. Those with very low DHEAS-levels. Mostly, these men are older... (55-60 plus).... But the report of FunkOdyssey, who looks like a younger man taking 50 mg, experiencing negative effects on libido, makes sense...... For men, pregnenolone is better. Pregnenolone-Sulfate is also available as lab-test....
MM

[pycnogenol]

I've used low-dose pregnenolone briefly in the past and all it did for me was make me cranky and irritable so I stopped.

Low-dose DHEA, on the other hand, improves my overall mood and I don't seem to have any side effects from taking it.

[tunt01]

fwiw: took pregnonelone for a few days as part of a nootropic regimen. didnt like it and quit.

[2tender]

I feel the same about Preg, its included in a Transdermal I occassionally use, but oral ingestion gave sides, I think the Sublihgual DHEA product mentioned is good and does improve mood, but it needs to be cycled and low-dosed to avoid breast tenderness and ED.

[markymark]

I've used low-dose pregnenolone briefly in the past and all it did for me was make me cranky and irritable so I stopped.

Low-dose DHEA, on the other hand, improves my overall mood and I don't seem to have any side effects from taking it.

Without testing blood levels of DHEA-Sulfate and Pregnenolone-Sulfate, taking those pro-homones, especially at young age, is like flying without radar.
All those reports (e. g. from 2tender and prophets) would find an explanation on the basis of baseline hormone-levels.

[pycnogenol]

I've used low-dose pregnenolone briefly in the past and all it did for me was make me cranky and irritable so I stopped.

Low-dose DHEA, on the other hand, improves my overall mood and I don't seem to have any side effects from taking it.

Without testing blood levels of DHEA-Sulfate and Pregnenolone-Sulfate, taking those pro-homones, especially at young age, is like flying without radar.
All those reports (e. g. from 2tender and prophets) would find an explanation on the basis of baseline hormone-levels.

Hi markymark, (and the Funky Bunch???)

Believe me I'm definitely not young! I take 5-10 mg per day. I consider that a low-dose. I'm well aware of any potential side effects.

Edited by pycnogenol, 03 December 2009 - 04:10 PM.

[markymark]

Hi Pinebark, äh uh Pycnogenol,

I must correct myself a bit, 5-10 mg DHEA can be taken without a lab-test since it is a very low dose
....and for a male in middle ages ;-) which you might be is Ok. Morever, from reading the forums you and most individuals here know what the Do's and Dont's, and do not need avice from an I-know-it-all-guy.

What I just wanted to say, is that measuring DHEAS and Pregnenolone at baseline and then after 3-4 weeks taking them, again 3-4 hours after taking the prohoermones another measurement is what we MDs do. If the client's budget allowes, maintanace tests are:
1 Testosteron (especially in women we can then show the slight increase in testosterone, which brings about the well being)
2. Estradiol and Estrone in men.

It gives all (Dr. and client) a good feeling to see that one indeed starts at low DHEAS (Preg-S) mornig levels and then has 3-5h-post dosing levels in the optimal range AND fells better.....

regs Mark

Edited by markymark, 04 December 2009 - 08:03 AM.

[protoject]

Supplementing with 50mg of DHEA raised my levels of estrone way above normal, it was definitely metabolizing into a ton of estrogen. Also dropped my testosterone about 40%, experiment was a total failure.

I'm assuming that you had blood tests to determine this. I'm curious, what were the subjective effects from raised estrogen / dropped testosterone?

Also has anyone here supplemented with DHEA while doing estrogen detox at the same time?

[warner]

What I just wanted to say, is that measuring DHEAS and Pregnenolone at baseline and then after 3-4 weeks taking them, again 3-4 hours after taking the prohoermones another measurement is what we MDs do. If the client's budget allowes, maintanace tests are:
1 Testosteron (especially in women we can then show the slight increase in testosterone, which brings about the well being)
2. Estradiol and Estrone in men.

It gives all (Dr. and client) a good feeling to see that one indeed starts at low DHEAS (Preg-S) mornig levels and then has 3-5h-post dosing levels in the optimal range AND fells better.....

Hi Mark. What do you think of saliva testing from ZRT? My impression is that the saliva (free) estradiol (E) is about 1/20 of the total serum (so 1 pg/ml saliva E would be about 20 pg/ml total serum). Would such saliva E (and T and DHEAS) be adequate for monitoring the effects of DHEAS supplemenation (using ZRT's 95% reference ranges)? In fact, wouldn't a saliva E be a better measurement than a total E?

Also, sounded like DHEAS could be good for an aging male with both low T and low E (or low E that did not improve with T suppl.) as a way of increasing E. Any more thoughts about this? Alternatively, would you consider applying T to scrotum (vs., for example, shoulders) as another way of increasing E production in such an individual? Thanks.

[Dorho]

I have thought about starting to use low doses of pregnenolone and DHEA for mental energy combined with some substance(s) that downregulate(s) estrogen like DIM (Diindolylmethane). DIM is also popular among bodybuilders. I've read that Saw Palmetto has anti-estrogen effects too but it also has inhibiting effects on dihydrotestosterone (source) (helps those who have prostate problems) so I think I'll skip that one. Does anyone have better suggestions for a good male DHEA+preg combination stack?

This is quite a handy picture for all those who are interested in messing around with their hormone balance:

[markymark]

What I just wanted to say, is that measuring DHEAS and Pregnenolone at baseline and then after 3-4 weeks taking them, again 3-4 hours after taking the prohoermones another measurement is what we MDs do. If the client's budget allowes, maintanace tests are:
1 Testosteron (especially in women we can then show the slight increase in testosterone, which brings about the well being)
2. Estradiol and Estrone in men.

It gives all (Dr. and client) a good feeling to see that one indeed starts at low DHEAS (Preg-S) mornig levels and then has 3-5h-post dosing levels in the optimal range AND fells better.....

Hi Mark. What do you think of saliva testing from ZRT? My impression is that the saliva (free) estradiol (E) is about 1/20 of the total serum (so 1 pg/ml saliva E would be about 20 pg/ml total serum). Would such saliva E (and T and DHEAS) be adequate for monitoring the effects of DHEAS supplemenation (using ZRT's 95% reference ranges)? In fact, wouldn't a saliva E be a better measurement than a total E?

Also, sounded like DHEAS could be good for an aging male with both low T and low E (or low E that did not improve with T suppl.) as a way of increasing E. Any more thoughts about this? Alternatively, would you consider applying T to scrotum (vs., for example, shoulders) as another way of increasing E production in such an individual? Thanks.

@Warner
Re-Saliva: Yes, saliva testing would do the same job, i. e. providing the bais for: 1. diagnosis of basline levels and 2. navigation in terms of dosage etc.... Not all hormones can be meaured in saliva but you are right in that one advantage is, that only the free forms (not bound to a transport protein such as SHBG) are being measured. To be honest, I am kind of used to interpret the hormone blood levels for some years and to completely change an MDs routines is not so easy. It is laos important to have the SHBG level, say in aging males... blood is drawn anyway.

For example, I know quite well the 3-5 h post dosing optimum levels for DHEA-S and Preg-S or Testosteron and SHBG in serum and how to interpret them for the clients, but for saliva I would need to get familiar with them. This takes months and years....

Re-DHEA: yes again, if T and E2 and DHEAS are both low DHEAS could be given a try. The place where we males need some E2 is the endothelium. If I remember correctly there is even aromatase over there to convert T to E2 on site.... Well, IMO, males should not aim to increase E at all costs... but don't bother, if a male uses T, say transdermal route, E2 will increase automatically. I do not know the exact number of males who have a real aromatase problem, i. e. a relative lack of E2, but the number is probably low.

regs
Mark

[warner]

Re-Saliva: Yes, saliva testing would do the same job, i. e. providing the bais for: 1. diagnosis of basline levels and 2. navigation in terms of dosage etc.... Not all hormones can be meaured in saliva but you are right in that one advantage is, that only the free forms (not bound to a transport protein such as SHBG) are being measured. To be honest, I am kind of used to interpret the hormone blood levels for some years and to completely change an MDs routines is not so easy. It is laos important to have the SHBG level, say in aging males... blood is drawn anyway.

For example, I know quite well the 3-5 h post dosing optimum levels for DHEA-S and Preg-S or Testosteron and SHBG in serum and how to interpret them for the clients, but for saliva I would need to get familiar with them. This takes months and years....

Re-DHEA: yes again, if T and E2 and DHEAS are both low DHEAS could be given a try. The place where we males need some E2 is the endothelium. If I remember correctly there is even aromatase over there to convert T to E2 on site.... Well, IMO, males should not aim to increase E at all costs... but don't bother, if a male uses T, say transdermal route, E2 will increase automatically. I do not know the exact number of males who have a real aromatase problem, i. e. a relative lack of E2, but the number is probably low.

Thanks Mark. I feel a little guilty getting all this free advice. Perhaps you can suggest somewhere online where I might be able to pay someone like yourself for advice like this to complement my endo - who I think is a bit challenged by all of this, probably because he spends most of his time dealing with diabetes. I had to push the "system" to even recognize that I had a problem, and don't have much faith that, left to their own devices, that I'll get optimal treatment.

Anyway, here are some followup questions to your last post...

- I assume that your interest in SHBG is so that you can calculate free/bioavailable T from total? So direct measurement of free T would be even better? Otherwise it seems like knowing SHBG doesn't help much, since one can't change that easily(?), and one's body is self-adjusting (via LH and T) to free T, not bound T anyway.

- I had borderline serum total T, which led to measurement of free T (low), which I confirmed with saliva testing, which also showed borderline E2, which led to DEXA scan showing osteopenia (presumably caused by low T and E2, and several years of prilosec use w/o adequate mineral supplementation, and some calorie restriction). So that's why I have a heightened concern about E2 levels (also because of low E2 being associated with heart disease in males).

- Finally, after the first 2 weeks of Androgel use (the last time I measured anything), I found that saliva E2 was actually lower(!), leading me to wonder whether the replacement of my endogenous T with exogenous T applied to shoulders was actually producing less E2. Presumably (if measurements are confirmed), this can be fixed with greater T application. Anyway, what I'm wondering is if any of this sounds familiar? Also wondering, if most MDs are doing measurements of total serum E, whether they actually have a very good handle on free E2 in males, including those taking supplemental T?

(I would normally be reluctant to post this personal info, but perhaps others will find it useful, and it sort of illustrates the state of the science in 2010, and some of the possible implications of DHEA use. In other words, if one is contemplating taking DHEA, you should probably first know something about all this T and E stuff.)

[panhedonic]

bump ** wanted to know how this goes for you after you posted, warner.

I'm considering taking DHEA (and other stuff, like Tongkat Ali, TMG, Zinc, Ginseng) with the purpose of boosting my libido) and I wanted to know if you have fresh advice regarding this.

thanks.

[balance]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22588361

Done on young healthy males. Surprising outcome.

[Cycnut]

Has anyone tried indole-3-carbinol to prevent aromatization of testosterone to estrogens? They're found in cabbage, broccoli, and cauliflower, but also available in supplement form

[Kevnzworld]

Has anyone tried indole-3-carbinol to prevent aromatization of testosterone to estrogens? They're found in cabbage, broccoli, and cauliflower, but also available in supplement form

I've taken I3C and DIM for years. I don't believe they are aromatase inhibiters though. My understanding is that they mitigate some of the harmful effects of estrogen metabolites. Chrysin, and zinc are aromatase inhibiters.