<thefirstimmortal> I also have concerns about wether or not Alcor or CI would welcome the types of arguments I would advance
<kzzch> are you talking about the religious freedom arguments? i for one think that they're inspired.
<thefirstimmortal> Thank You, yes that's the central and most powerful one I can find
<planetp> Well, arguments based in Religious freedom have been hit and miss over the last 50 years. It helps of course if your religion is part of the mainstream
<planetp> It's an angle worth pursuing of course
<kzzch> i don't know about all religious freedom arguments, but the one bill posted on the alcor thread was really well argued, IMHO
<thefirstimmortal> My case research suggest otherwise, and all religious arguments have fared well
<planetp> What about all of the psychedelic churches that were harassed, hounded and shut down in the 60's & 70's. The onlu survivor is the Peyote Church.
<thefirstimmortal> There are several arguments that can be made, several I have...
<planetp> Well, it's definitely a good legal foundation to start from, and you have my support.
<kzzch> What about them? Cryonic suspensions aren't illicit substances
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<thefirstimmortal> The peyote case won in Supreme Court and advanced the idea of carving out exceptionss
<planetp> Cryonics could easily be made illegal, as it almost was done in AZ. legality/illegality is what we're talking about here.
<kzzch> Perhaps, but with the way things are going so far in AZ, it looks like Alcor's willingness to participate in it's own regulation is going to end up being a good thing for cryonics in general.
<thefirstimmortal> To the best of my knowledge, Alcor may not have standing to advance the religious argument
<kzzch> It will give other states more leverage in openeing their own cryo facilities.
<kzzch> People in other states, I should say.
* BJKlein Official Chat Starts
<BJKlein> Immortality & Future Hi
<BJKlein> Creator of the site Future Hi - Celebrating the Rebirth of Psychedelic Futurism, Paul Hughes (planetp) joins ImmInst to chat about the future and the possiblity of immortality.
<thefirstimmortal> It may not be a good thing, it may be the camels nose under the tent
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<BJKlein> welcome Randolfe
<planetp> Great, does anyone have any questions to start it off?
<Randolfe> Glad to be back.
<BJKlein> we're just starting now..
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<BJKlein> what got you into transhumanism Paul?
<planetp> Long story, but it started when I was age 4, and watched Apollo 11 on TV, then to immortality at age 12, when I read about it in Future Magazine.
<kzzch> Funny, I was listening to some Tim Leary mp3's earlier.
<planetp> So it was something I evolved into, rather than took all at once.
<Randolfe> I have always liked psychedelic art. I used to own a psychedelic shop. I'm wondering if psychedelic art like that with the two articles is a recognized art form at this time?
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<BJKlein> Why did you create Future Hi?
<planetp> I think Psychedelic Art is definitely recognized... Alex Grey being the most maintstream.
<kzzch> I'm fond of acid and the hallucinations it produces, also, my own ability to reason during those experiences.
<planetp> I created Future Hi for lots of reasons, but first and foremost to provide people a positive framework in which to embrace these coming powerful
<planetp> technologies
<BJKlein> I love the idea of looking into the future..
<planetp> 9-11, PATRIOT ACT, terrorism, The dot-com crash has got people real down
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<weirdnrg>
<planetp> Additionally, I'm attempting to bring different types of transhumism under one roof.
<Randolfe> You mention having trouble finishing your book. My experience has been that psychedelics undermine discipline.
<planetp> I don't do psychedelics anymore. LOL!
<MichaelA> Which types of transhumanism?
<thefirstimmortal> Apologies for the interuption, Randi that is March 14, Mea Culpa
<MichaelA> Ha, you don't? *surprised*
<kzzch> A good friend of mine claims that marijauna helps her focus on her writing (not that it's an hallucinogen)
<Randolfe> Neither do I. They were great experiences but I would be afraid to trip again.
<planetp> No, the psychedelic experience leaves a permanent set of imprints which forever effect your way of looking at these topics
<kzzch> I just have a hard time finding it
<planetp> I think the psychedelic experience has something very important to teach us.
<MichaelA> I'm not so sure, I've spoken to many others who haven't had any psychedelics and they seem to converge towards many of the same conclusions as I have
<kzzch> chemognosis?
<thefirstimmortal> Planetp, would you consider yourself a libertarian?
<planetp> I agree Michael, I don't think you have to have them, to get the message
<Randolfe> I agree. It was originally developed as a learning tool for our intelligence services wasn't it?
<planetp> Yes, very libertarian,
* BJKlein has never used drugs (other than caffeine, etc)
<weirdnrg> heh
<BJKlein> and nootropics
<weirdnrg> ephedra+caffeine here
<weirdnrg>
<weirdnrg> made me more alert
<BJKlein> so.. i guess i'm a junkie, really
<weirdnrg> also sexually
<Randolfe> I've never taken a drug I didn't love. That is why I always avoided addicting drugs.
<planetp> I think the future of intelligence will be psychedelic in nature.
<MichaelA> Which versions of transhumanism are you trying to integrate with Future Hi, Paul? Hedonistic Imperative-type stuff with general transhumanism and a little bit of SL3+ stuff?
<kzzch> is anyone here on orkut yet?
<thefirstimmortal> Well, since the statutes of limitations has run out, I think I've tried them all
<Randolfe> Psychedelics, LSD, Peyote, Mescaline, give you an intensity of experience. You see colors more brightly, etc. You notice little details you never noticed before.
<BJKlein> yeah, im a orkut addict
<BJKlein> you need an email kzzch?
<planetp> SL2,3,4 + Extropian empiricism, hedonistic imperative type stuff, the psychedelic experience, yes, yes.
<kzzch> if you would, BJ. thanks!
<BJKlein> sure.. anyone else just PM me
<BJKlein> click on PM in this chat now.. thanks
<BJKlein> double click on my username
<MichaelA> Why do you say it would be psychedelic in nature, when all our past experiences with psychedelics merely involve Homo sapienses experiencing highly incremental changes to brain chemistry, relative to the space of all physically possible minds and so on? Isn't using psychedelics as anything more than an abstract analogy somewhat misportray the true opportunities that would be opened up with brain modification/intelligence enhanc
<Randolfe> It is almost impossible to describe a psychedelic experience to someone who has not had one.
<planetp> Becuase psychedelic experiences are the first break from regular consciousness. The space of psychedelic experience is VAST, way more vast than experiences available to ordinary consciousness.
<MichaelA> I would say that the future of brain modification will abstractly relate to psychedelics because they involve SLIGHTLY stepping outside of our 50,000 year box, but not at all to the degree that transhumanist technologies would offer..
<MichaelA> I do agree with that
<planetp> Future intelligence means more intelligence, more consciosness, more expansive states in which to see the universe
<MichaelA> I would still be cautious to use it as more than an analogy
<MichaelA> Randolfe: agreed
<planetp> I disagree... a LOT.
<Randolfe> Maybe a few good art movies convey the visual effects of a psychedelic experience but the emotional aspects are not experienced.
<planetp> I see the future intelligence ecompassing all existing psychedelic experience and then vastly exceeding it paramaters.
<MichaelA> So do I
<Randolfe> The outer parameters of psychedlic experience is the utter loss of contact with reality. I would never want to go beyond that.
<Nuzz-Away> Last night I was at this party... it was kinda weird because my perception was distorted... Looking at the shadows of liquid dancers, the shadows seemed to be the real thing and everything else seemed to me like shadows
<thefirstimmortal> So if we all have a conference, who's gonna' Bomb the wrappers
<planetp> Randolfe, I would agree. Because afterall, you are still human, and in order to survive you need to integrate those experiences with your human expereince.
*kzzch* thanks
<Nuzz-Away> whenever your perception changes like that you're not always yourself, I'm not even aware that things are different at the time
<Randolfe> Nuzz-Away, you description is a very good simulation to what tripping is like. Just make the colors float and shimmer, etc. as well as tghe shadows becoming the dancers.
<planetp> I want to make everyone aware of a facinating article I read last night. It's by Mark Pesce, the original author of VRML. It's called, Bios and Logo, and talks about the singularity in an entirely new way.
<Nuzz-Away> I was smoking a lot
<planetp> Bios & Logos:
http://www.hyperreal...osandlogos.html<Randolfe> Has pot gotten that much stronger?
<Nuzz-Away> that's the rave site!
<Nuzz-Away> =D
<Nuzz-Away> well ive smoked pot a lot of times but its never done that to me
<Nuzz-Away> I had bad drymouth in the first 5 minutes
*planetp* Was hopinh we could keep the conversation on topic, and not about silly drug experiences. :-)
<MichaelA> I think Nuzz might be talking about something else
<MichaelA> We need to be careful to not lump all psychoactives into the same broad category
<Nuzz-Away> i thought the eschaton was another word for the omega point
<Nuzz-Away> not the singularity
<MichaelA> Eh, I also fear overuse of the word "Singularity"
<Randolfe> I rarely smoke pot these days but the government argues that the pot they have today is 100 times (or 1000 times) stronger than the stuff they had during the late 1960s
<Nuzz-Away> I read a sci fi book a long time ago and thats when i heard about the omega point... they used the word eschaton
<MichaelA> "Eschaton" somewhat derives from McKenna's largely unfounded confabulations
<kzzch> immanentize the eschaton!
* kzzch throws out discordian vibes
<MichaelA> Yes, it's so bad that you hear the phrase more often in making fun of it
<BJKlein> Paul, what is the best path toward physical immortality?
<BJKlein> are you trying to take care of your health for example?
<planetp> Wow, that's a good one. First and foremost, we should take of ourselves today to maximize our odds of catching the accelerating returns of longeivity mediciine.
<planetp> It was that hope, that got me into immortality in the first place.
<Randolfe> Avoiding all drugs. Starving yourself on calorie restriction. Working yourself to near deatha t the gym. Going broke on supplements.
<planetp> That anti-aging research continues to accelerate, and there will come a point where they can extend life faster than we age chronologically, giving us indefinite lifespams
<weirdnrg> lifespans
<weirdnrg>
<planetp> lol!
<weirdnrg> :D
<MichaelA> You worry very little about existential risks?
<planetp> Existential Risks? please elaborate..
<BJKlein> good plan.. and then do you see yourself uploading to a more robust substrate?
<MichaelA>
http://www.nickbostr...tial/risks.html<Randolfe> What about the argument that the rise in age expectation has more to do with sanitation, anti-biotics, etc. The Bible talks about three score and ten. We haven't come that far if you take a 2000 year perspective.
<MichaelA> human extinction scenarios, where everyone dies, no matter how many anti-oxidants they took
<weirdnrg> Bruce, I definitely do see it happening gradually
<planetp> Yes, longevity cannot happen in a vacuum. But in the meantime, cleaning house should start at home.
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<planetp> And I think that since we are now hacking the genome, we will extend life, no question.
<Randolfe> But what about all the Immortalists who smoke tobacco to excess, are overweight, drink too much etc.? Why do we, of all groups, find ourselves plagued by these problems?
<planetp> As for Human extinction scenarios, there are lots of way it can happen, but I still stick to my theory that we will have utopian, either chosen or forced, OR oblivion.
<planetp> Perhaps, because they think it's inevitable, and will happen soon, so no need to take of themselves.
<planetp> take care of themeselves.
<MichaelA> Randolfe, are you talking about immortalists specifically or just life extensionists?
<BJKlein> thus, you would advise protecting the continuation of your consciousness via cryonics if necessary?
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<Randolfe> I think it shows that are of us are fallible human beings, no matter how bright we may be. We are animals ruled by illogical emotions.
<MichaelA> I agree Paul, so isn't influence over the binary outcome of oblivion vs. transcension even more important than selectively taking advantage of anti-aging approaches as they arrive?
<planetp> Yes, I will be frozen should i not make it.
* BJKlein nods
<planetp> Some people are filled with horror when they start to sense the shape of this new world, and retreat into the various forms of fundamentalism. We’re only too familiar with that.
<planetp> Other people are blindly optimistic, willing to accept any form that this world might offer them, even if it’s only in some sort of symbiosis with a machine intelligence that little knows or cares of their human existence.
<planetp> These are the Scylla and Charybdis of the modern age.
<BJKlein> thus, you would also subscribe to the idea that a life lived for 1 billion years and then death is the same as death tommorow?
<MichaelA> Paul, can you name one group or person that subscribes to the latter view?
<planetp> I think a third path, a middle path is the best approach.
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<planetp> Hans Moravec.
<MichaelA> Bruce, that idea seems to be based on holding up immortality as a goal unto itself, rather than as a means to having more fulfilling and interesting experiences
<MichaelA> Paul, I thought you might say him
<MichaelA> Aside from Hans Moravec, anyone?
<MichaelA> I definitely agree on that count, btw
<weirdnrg> I wasn't aware that cryonics was a promising way to preserve life today until I read that recent cryonics article on your site..
<Randolfe> Planetp, I think you are right about many being wildly optimistic. With those concerned about the singularity, it seems they are wildly optimistic and wildly pessimistic at the same time.
<planetp> There are many others that I've run across in the course of 10 years on the Extropian/tranhumanist lists.
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<MichaelA> I see very VERY few of them
<MichaelA> Even on Mind-X
<weirdnrg> many, I'm sure, are like me..
<BJKlein> welcome ct, thanks for joining us
<weirdnrg> we are disconnected from the knowledge we should all know in detail
<planetp> I think a lot of people think that as long as we can achieve Strong AI, we have nothing to worry about, and I think that's foolhardy.
<MichaelA> You all have a responsibility to sit down and do the reading
<weirdnrg> connect the minds <~> let no barrier keep consciousness from being more free :O)
<MichaelA> (re: the knowledge we should know in detail)
<MichaelA> Paul, I actually think that very few people believe that
<MichaelA> Kurzweil's ideas, for example, are based on accelerating change in general, not strong AI specfically
<MichaelA> on wta-talk in the past two years, I've never seen anyone push the view you speak of
<planetp> I
<weirdnrg> Michael, not everybody has the time.. resources
<MichaelA> and among hundreds or thousands of websites on man-machine mergers, very few promise apotheosis without difficulties
<planetp> 've seen it many, many times in 10 years michael, sorry.
<weirdnrg> and they choose not to, because there are many other things in our circular world..
<planetp> I don't question that.
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* weirdnrg blowing wind :Oo
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<MichaelA> Okay, I'll take your word for it, but would appreciate links to any websites pushing this view, because I don't see any (but plan to continue looking)
<planetp> I don't see people PUSHING this view, rather accepting thier fate at the mercy of machines.
<planetp> Or surrendering to it.
<Randolfe> No machine is ev er going to master me. I'm human and that beats any machine.
<planetp> Eli, for example used to speak in these terms.
<MichaelA> He did, didn't he
<planetp> Somewhere in the last year or two, he changed.
<weirdnrg> I have personally made the immortalist view digestible to those that would not consider it by just pointing to www.imminst.org
<MichaelA> Heh, more like 5 or so years ago, I think
<weirdnrg> It is in the way we represent & express that information to others that makes all the difference
<BJKlein> excellent, thanks weirdnrg
<weirdnrg> and making it useable in their context
<planetp> No, I found him talking like this as recently as 2000-1.
<weirdnrg> thanks Bruce
<MichaelA> Does a specific statement come to mind? I thought he began making Friendliness a major priority as early as 2000
<Randolfe> What makes imminst such an effective site is that visitors get the impression they are "overhearing" discussions and not getting preached at.
<weirdnrg> They do NOT need to read a huge amount to change their long standing beliefs
<MichaelA> He was predicating his belief on the notion that as a self-improving AI reaches an arbitrary level of intelligence, it is sure to converge on an optimal morality
*wittyusername* Do the "naysayers" like Randolfe make too much a commotion around Imminst? (this is David "the" Duke)
<weirdnrg> you must know the correct tools for expression & intimate knowledge of their context
<planetp> I think strong AI doesn't have a chance until it can model the human mind.
<MichaelA> Homo sapiens is just a particular incarnation of general intelligence; there is no magical stuff in the human mind an AI will inevitable be forced to steal
<MichaelA> Anyhoo, in that case you can build a weak AI specifically dedicated to the purpose of doing an atom-level brainscan of a human using brute-force nanocomputing
<Randolfe> Every species has some "magical stuff" in it. Dolphins have better radar than we can yet produce.
<MichaelA> (if nanocomputing happens to be available)
<planetp> I'm not saying that greater than human intelligence can be totally alien and distinct from human, I'm saying WE humans will not create one, unless we use our human mind to model it after.
<MichaelA> To understand the function of a radio does not require scanning every atom in the radio, but understanding the general principles of its operation, of which there are only a few dozen
<BJKlein> Randy, would you say that machine intelligence is the next step in evolution of life?
<weirdnrg> Michael, that sounds pretty similar to Stephen Thaler's creativity machine
<Randolfe> No, I believe machine intelligence is a step "backward" in life.
<MichaelA> Requiring a totally thorough simulation is just what you do when you figure that the general principles of intelligence are so insoluble that it is impossible to get them right by chance
<weirdnrg> ie - you do not need to recreate the wheel in order to emulate the essential features
<planetp> I disagree with both Randolf and michael. :-)
<weirdnrg> or the human mind, even
<MichaelA> Are you assuming that I consider machine intelligence as necessarily the next step in the evolution in life? I don't...
<ravi> Randolfe: "Backward" in life ? why?
<planetp> I think machine intelligence is an addendum, a tool, which will merge with human entelechy.
* MichaelA tries to imagine a 10^17 ops/sec human talking to a 10^24 ops/sec superintelligence and calling it a tool...
<MichaelA> Superintelligence: I can now represent all of human civilization's intellectual accomplishments as a single mental symbol.
<planetp> speed is definitely not everything michael come on!! lol
<MichaelA> Human: can you help me make this coffee?
<MichaelA> Speed is just one factor among millions
<MichaelA> The other factors are more complicated
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<BJKlein> Randy, you do believe in evolution right
<planetp> If I gave you a general purpose computer right now, that could do 10^30 ops/sec., I bet you still couldn't createa an SI
<thefirstimmortal> weirdnrg, what I like about Imm, is that it seems like a good cross road, and the resources are vast
<weirdnrg> hi John!
<John_Ventureville> howdy!
<weirdnrg> eclecticd chris here
<BJKlein> sup John_Ventureville~!
<Utnapishtim> PlanetP: Maybe not but as I have said previously, people tend to underestimate the extent to which quantitative differences amount to qualitative differences as well
<John_Ventureville> hello, BJ
<MichaelA> Forget the many ops per second then
<Utnapishtim> Hey John
<Randolfe> Because machines lack human emotional controls. If a machine is designed to kill every moving object in a rat infested basement, it won't have the nuances to spare the family tiny pet that wanders in its way.
<planetp> Yes, speed is probably the least important factor actually.
<John_Ventureville> hi, Utnap
<planetp> Randolfe, machines as they are, you are correct, but we are taling about machines that match the complexity of the human mind.
<BJKlein> Randy, humans are machines too.. and we don't kill everything (i hope)
<BJKlein> we're just biological machines
<planetp> exactly!
<Randolfe> BJ, of course I believe in evolution.
<hkhenson> there are real problems with the human machines
<BJKlein> heh, i know.. just joshing with ya
<hkhenson> they have built in destruct mechanisms that are only starting to come to light
<wittyusername> Machines would probably be less inclined to kill humans, unless they were deliberately programmed to (or super-powerful and amoral at the same time)
<MichaelA> "Machines" and "humans" are not a dichotomy; there will eventually be a smooth continuum
<planetp> BJ, in answer to your earlier question, I look forward to having a faster, denser, more compact and durable substrate over my 3-lb gret matter now. :-)
<BJKlein> Randy, we can get machine intelligence very wrong and kill all of us.. and we can get it right too... it will happen either way.. sooner or later.
<Randolfe> I find the concept of machines with human emotions very difficult to accept. I also find the idea of life without my human body difficult to imagine and accept.
<planetp> I agree Michael, exactly.
<hkhenson> I wonder how many of you would opt for the far edge party if that was a choice?
<MichaelA> Randolfe, you're not a transhumanist, in that case?
* BJKlein excellent planetp. I will join ya
<planetp> Randolfe, please read my Reality 3.0 at
http://www.futurehi....ves/000041.html<planetp> Hi Keith!!
<planetp> Okd member of L5 here!
<John_Ventureville> my concern about machines being used to kill humans is that it is human nature to use new tools TO kill other humans.
<planetp> Yes, I will be at the Far Side Party!
<hkhenson> oh really? cool!
<Randolfe> MichaelA, now we have "formal" definitions for transhumanists?
<planetp> I spoke with you at Extro 3 about it where I first met you in person.
<Utnapishtim> I'd personally describe myself as a very conservative transhumanist
<hkhenson> ah
<hkhenson> sorry I don't remember much of that conf.
<MichaelA> A transhumanist is someone who wants to go beyond being a human being, I thought
<planetp> no worries, either do i.
<MichaelA> It's not a crime not to be one
<hkhenson> I think I was busy and was only there a little
<Utnapishtim> Compared to most people there aren't aone heck of a lot of changes I'd like to make anytime soon
<planetp> but i remember you. :-)
<John_Ventureville> "conservative" transhumanists? "liberal" transhumanists? "moderate" transhumanists?
<John_Ventureville> I never thought of it that way
<Randolfe> A transhumanist is someone who wants to go beyond what a human being can be today.
<planetp> Urnapisttim, what makes you conservative? Could u elaborate?
<thefirstimmortal> member of L5, I've recall hearing the term L5 a long time ago, what is that?
<MichaelA> I'm not even a radical transhumanist anymore, I just want to survive the next 30 years
<hkhenson> first, try L5 Society in google
<MichaelA> Randolfe: okay, understood
<planetp> Langrange 5 - a gravitataion stable point 60 degrees to the side of the moon, in the same orbit.
<BJKlein> heh, i suspect the term immortalist is more universal than transhumanist
<hkhenson> location proposed for space colonies
<Utnapishtim> PlanetP: I would like to get my aging turned off.. I'd like to oprimise my physical health. Perhaps fiddle with my appearance a little but other than that I am in no hurry to transform myself
<planetp> A nice place to build out a space colonization effort.
<Randolfe> MichaelA, since you are not yet 20, why do you worry about reaching 50? Chances are you will live to be 90 or more even if things don't improve more rapidly.
<Utnapishtim> I am uninterested in increaing my intelligence by orders of magnitutde for instance
<hkhenson> I want a mix of very radical and very conservative things
<MichaelA> Because rapid movement is not the issue, blowing ourselves up is the issue
<thefirstimmortal> Thank You, I was mistaken as to what I thought it was.
<Utnapishtim> because I believe that to do so would sever any meaningful connection between my current and future selves
<MichaelA> Technology is outpacing wisdom
<hkhenson> I want many orders of improvement in memory
<John_Ventureville> Any conservative Southern Baptist transhumanists here who wish to upload to get the word out in a better way?
<planetp> Utnapisthme, good points, I think are reasoning is that with more intelligence you get more fun, excitement, love, compassion, etc. Do u not want those things?
<ravi> how old are u Michael A?
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<Randolfe> Utnapishtim, I agree with you. I want to take the basic Modet-T me and turn it into a 2023 Super Sedan.
<hkhenson> any zin druids?
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - why not a smoother ride to greater intelligence and wisdom??
<MichaelA> 239 months old
<Utnapishtim> not at the cost of losing my sense of personal continuity no
* BJKlein age
<BJKlein> [Age][29.906033 Years]
<BJKlein> MichaelA is 10yrs younger than I
<kzzch> technology has always outpaced wisdom.
<hkhenson> on that point I agree with utn
<BJKlein> minus one day
<Utnapishtim> I also find my current life to contain all those thigns you describe
<Randolfe> Yes, personal continuity is what cryonics folks are always talking about. Living on in a later-born twin just doesn't make it for them.
<hkhenson> plus I am a matter chauvinist
<planetp> So you are supremely happy and satisified now?
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<Randolfe> What's a matter chauvinist?
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<Ge> Randolf: and what human body shop will you go to to do that?
<hkhenson> I am not inclined to travel by radio waves
<MichaelA> technology has always outpaced wisdom because human intelligence and morality is basically constant, but we can make that change
<MichaelA> without the enhancement of wisdom along with technology, we will surely run into huge problems
* BJKlein nods to MA
<planetp> I don't agree. If you look at human history, we have definiely evolved morally, ethically.
<Randolfe> Ge, I'll have Genetic Engineering Garages Inc.
<Utnapishtim> I think if I took my Dog and increased his intelligence to that of a man I'd be creating a new creature. I'd also be killing my dog in a way.
<hkhenson> that seems like a good bet MA
<MichaelA> our moral and ethical progression is so small in comparison to the increasing power of technology
<kzzch> i'd argue that the moment one man killed another with a tool, technology was already outpacing wisdom. although I may be saying that tongue in cheek.
<Randolfe> My dog was in many ways more intelligent than I to begin with.
<MichaelA> because our cognitive architecture has essentially been the same; to a nonhuman, Einstein and the village idiot would basically look like the same people
<MichaelA> kzzch, interesting statement
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - you are dying a little each day now, and waking up a slightly different person than who went to asleep.
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, not if you did it slowy enough.. your dog would maintain its identiy
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<Ge> what we call wisdom only makes sense if moral laws remain constant; if we change our bodies enough, we will change the moral laws as well
<kzzch> Michael, I've got weird ideas on what constitutes technology.
<hkhenson> It will be interesting in the future. people upgraded from goldfish . . . . .
<MichaelA> we can be incredibly minimalist and call "wisdom"; "anything that prevents us from killing ourselves"
<planetp> I also think, that the hedonisitic imperative shows that human nature can be changed radically.
<MichaelA> kzzch, so do I
<kzzch> But if you think about it, using a rock to kill someone is a technological advancement over using ones bare hands.
<Randolfe> Utnapishtim, if both you and your dog grew in intelligence at the same rate, perhaps not thawt much would be changed. Except, perhaps your dog wouldn't want to just be your dog anymore.
<Utnapishtim> Bruce: I would want that process to occur VERY slowly.. I feel that any increase in intelliegence greater than an IQ point every 18 months or so would be disruptive to a sense or personal continuity
<MichaelA> a massive one, especially viewed relative to Earth's entire evolutionary history
<hkhenson> chimps use sticks as weapons sometimes
<John_Ventureville> human aggression/war has been a primary driver for technological progress
<kzzch> In which case, you might argue that technology came before wisdom was even a gleam in socrates eye
<MichaelA> John: which only serves to prove how twisted humanity can be
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - have u ever taken a nootropic?? That increases your general IQ by proably 5% or more, and trust me, you don't die.
<hkhenson> john, i don't think so.
<John_Ventureville> Michael, yep!
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<kzzch> how many points is 5% though?
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<Ge> All the rock does is reduce the physical strength needed to kill.
<kzzch> i suppose it depends on what you started out at
<planetp> depends on your current iq!! lol!
<Randolfe> Where do you get nootropics? What are they?
<serenade> cognitive enhancing drugs
<planetp> Antiaging-systems.com is one place, there are several,. Do a seach on Piracetum.
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, reference: Max More's Identity, Continuity, Transformation
http://www.maxmore.com/disscont.htm<kzzch> Heh, i just started taking nootropics, but they seem to help a little.
<Ge> Nootropic: class of drugs that enhances mentation; some legal, some not
<serenade> i get mine from www.sherwyns.com
<Utnapishtim> BJ thanks for the link!
<BJKlein> sure
<kzzch> I think i'm going to order piracetam in bulk and cap my own
<kzzch> seems more cost effective that way.
<Utnapishtim> 5 % for me might end up being an every 8 or 9 points I guess
<BJKlein> Paul, do you have a family?
<planetp> Piracetum + hydergine ( very small amounts) is my favorite combo.
<kzzch> does anyone else get a mild headache from vinpocetine?
<serenade> i take it with choline
<Ge> Ut, you IQ = 180?
<kzzch> i'm taking a rather large stack of supplements right now
<BJKlein> we're coming up on the end of the official chat.. feel free to stay longer
<John_Ventureville> I would love to have an additional 50 IQ points, but I would like a cognitive augmentation program which I could reverse if I wanted to
<planetp> I am polyamorous - so I have my wife, and another lady who lives with us full-time. I don't have children.
<Utnapishtim> aactually.. what the hell am I talking about
<Utnapishtim> more like 6.something
<Jonesey> planetp=player player
<kzzch> how's that working out planetp? i've wanted to try it
<BJKlein> planetp, are any transhumansit?
<BJKlein> *transhumanist
<planetp> not a player, polyamorous. LOL!
<Jonesey> how many wives u need kzzch
<planetp> All of us are transhuamnists.
<Jonesey> planetp:uh huh
<BJKlein> wonderful!
<planetp> Two is plenty, thank you.
<kzzch> heh, i'd settle for one 'mate' don't know that i want a wife per se
<Jonesey> play chess kzzch
<kzzch> i'm thinking more along the lines of s-family though
<kzzch> so you could combine resources
<Utnapishtim> For most people an increaeer in IQ of 20 points would be HUGELY disruptive to their goals their values and their worldview
<Randolfe> I've been married. I've been single. I don't know which is really better.
<Utnapishtim> and that is peanuts compared to what will be possible
<kzzch> Jonesey: I would, but I don't have the patience to learn good strategy.
<hkhenson> there is probably time to raise one more generation of kids
<planetp> I agree UTnapisthtim, if t\you had an increase of 20 iq points, you would no longert settle for mediocre, life as usual, you would fight for more.
<MichaelA> what I would give for 20 IQ points...
<planetp> me too!!!!!
<hkhenson> and of course if the singularity takes longer, we better :-)
<Jonesey> kzzch:hence you will certainly get a lot of "mate"
<wittyusername> I'd give alot more for a attention span
<Ge> You could say that about any primary body parameter.
<Jonesey> marriage sux
<Utnapishtim> By whose definition is my current life mediocre?
<thefirstimmortal> Remember what I said about marriage and war Randy
<MichaelA> Keith, have you read
http://www.singinst....ingularity.html before?
<MichaelA> I also mention this due to something you brought up on the AGI list
<planetp> relative to an increase in intelligence you would think that most probably.
<hkhenson> probably.
<kzzch> Jonesey: You slid that past my pun detector.
<planetp> Same would happen to everyone who raised their iq that much, i suspect.
<MichaelA> I would try giving it another look if you don't remember this document specifically
<Randolfe> O'Rights, how could I ever forget. Those love fests can kill you.
<kzzch> a five percent increase puts me at 140
<ddhewitt> Perhaps IQ is not what we need but better ways to deploy the intelligence we have.
<Jonesey> hehe kzzch
<MichaelA> Tried it for 50,000 years, hasn't gone so well, Duane
<Jonesey> we need conflict resolution q, not i q
<thefirstimmortal> War and Marriage, the best way to win, is not to play
<planetp> I disagree, I think with more iq all around, we would more quickly deploy more connectivity and implemtation tools.
<Ge> 1st, I agree
<hkhenson> just skimmed it. good stuff
<kzzch> now i just need a drug that makes me do homework instead of sitting on the interent.
<wittyusername> exactly ddhewitt, I need a larger attention span
<Randolfe> War and Marriage: the one with the most money wins.
<planetp> conflict resolution doesn't happen becuase of stupidity, pure and simple!
<ddhewitt> I would disagree Michael but that is probably a long discussion.
<planetp> And not just IQ, lets not forget the equally important
<MichaelA> No, it also has to do with certain values that tend to correlate with stupidity among humans
<planetp> EQ - emotional intelligence
<MichaelA> Duane, it probably would be
<Utnapishtim> planetp: Rationality and intelligence are not the same thing...
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - i agree.
<hkhenson> humans are poorly suited to the current environment
<Utnapishtim> and lots of conflicts are down to irationality more than they are due to a lack of intelligence
<planetp> emotional intelligence is very important.
<Randolfe> Common sense and IQ are not even related sometimes.
<hkhenson> that's the lesson from evolutionary psychology
<ddhewitt> Intelligent people operating with the wrong premises are worse than stupid people.
<ddhewitt> They are more dangerous.
<MichaelA> The relative desirability of enhancing the brain physically versus coming up with better ideas at human-level intelligence has to do with how difficult each one is, and the degree of returns they would offer
* BJKlein official chat ends
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - agree, irrationality, emotiaon instability, are the biggest problems, the probelm we are in is more dues to an
<MichaelA> Rationality, intelligence, and values are all somewhat separate items
<planetp> Emotional plague
<hkhenson> any of you on the virus or sl4 list who read the thing about wars I put up?
<planetp> no, do u have a link?
<kzzch> Hey, anyone want to speculate what the world would be like if we hadn't had to worry about the cold war? less paranoid politicians perhaps? more advanced technology that wasn't related to the military in some fashion?
<hkhenson> ah, can someone pull up a link?
<MichaelA> kzzch, it sounds like you're asking "how would our civilization be if human nature were fundamentally different?"
<hkhenson> or I can email you a copy
<kzzch> i was thinking how far that may have set us back progress wise.
<ravi> does any one knw if Kerry would allow stem cell research in the US
<Randolfe> No, fear of being defeated in war is the only thing that would motivate investment in technology.
<thefirstimmortal> Who is the guest speaker for the march 14 Alcor HB-Stump bill?
<planetp> well, we probably wouldn't have gone to space like we did - no moon landing without cold war.
<John_Ventureville> kzzch, think about this one....
<Utnapishtim> PlanetP: Look at school.. FAR more emphasis is placed on 'respecting each others feelings' than on understanding each others thoughts
<MichaelA> I would rather target human nature in general rather than specific people like politicians, which are just surface results of the underlying causes of human nature
<hkhenson> for all the good a moon landing did . . . .
<hkhenson> since we didn't stay
<kzzch> MichaelA: Not necessarily, because I would argue that communist dictatorships go against human nature
<Randolfe> I believe Kerry does support stem cell research, including therapeutic cloning.
<BJKlein> O'Rights.. I will Invite Alcor Leadership to the Mar 14 Chat
<BJKlein> a number of peoplee
<MichaelA> That's still human nature; if communists are compelled to ignore human nature, then part of human nature is ignoring human nature
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - current methods of increasing EQ are completly inadequate, including so-called school sensitivity training.
<MichaelA> The cause: still human nature
<thefirstimmortal> Which one will be the actual guest speaker?
<hkhenson> paul, did you get involved in L5 when it was round? politically that is
<BJKlein> no firm guest yet
<planetp> Yes, I joined in 1979, at age 14.
<John_Ventureville> what if the ancient Greeks had taken the primitive steam engine they had and improved it to spearhead an industrial revolution? As Carl Sagan said, we might have starships coming back from Alpha Centauri right now if that had happened!
<planetp> I went to college at UofA, and was still involved.
<MichaelA> Visualize humanity's inherent nature as an abitrary sector in a vast space of potential alternatives
<kzzch> Ah, fair enough Michael, in that case I don't consider it an issue of human nature.
<hkhenson> wow.
<kzzch> Wait, never mind, I'm all confused now.
<hkhenson> what years were you there?
<BJKlein> Randy, you get my mail to you?
<planetp> When I came to Tucson in 1983, i think you already left town, right?
<planetp> 1983-89
<thefirstimmortal> Well, if they don't come, I would consider that spot.
<hkhenson> no, I left in 1985 summer
<ddhewitt> Good night, immortalists.
<BJKlein> night duane
<MichaelA> Paul: re 14 years old: dang
<kzzch> John: I hadn't known about that. Is there some form of irrational belief system that we can blame that on?
<planetp> Ok, I didn't actually meet you until 1997. lol.
<hkhenson> the local L5 and Mensa tended to co party
<Utnapishtim> John.. Now THAT is a great premise.. for an alternate future type science fiction novel
<hkhenson> did you know bill weigle?
<planetp> When i first got to Tucson, I got invloved with SEDS.
<John_Ventureville> goodnight
<Utnapishtim> Alexander the great crosses Persia with Tanks!
<BJKlein> take care john
<hkhenson> ah. was never involved with them.
<hkhenson> shame, they could have invited me to speak or something
<MichaelA> bye bye all
<planetp> Yeah, they should of.
<hkhenson> were you reading the L5 News at that time?
<BJKlein> seya MA.. Randy you still here?
<hkhenson> do you remember the memetics articles from 85 or 86?
<thefirstimmortal> hkhenderson, are you talking about the Alcor 14th chat?
<planetp> Yes, I was reading the news most of that time, between 82-85, i got really bogged down with school,
<planetp> Yes, i do remember those!!
<John_Ventureville> kzzch, I think you could blame it on a lack of intellectual & practical curiosity and also the fact that their slave economy stultified things. Also, Persian and Macedonian invasions overran some of the cities where this was going on.
<hkhenson> I scanned them in for historical reasons a while ago and posted them on the memetics mailing list
<planetp> I first heard of Nanotechnology in 1985, through people in the optics department who were friends with Drexler.
<wittyusername> tata
<kzzch> Well, I suppose there's no point in lamenting things that can't be changed.
<hkhenson> ah. what were you studying?
<John_Ventureville> But I think we should probably be grateful things worked out as they did....
<thefirstimmortal> <thefirstimmortal> hkhenson, are you talking about the Alcor 14th chat?
<planetp> I started out in Aerospace Engineering, then tranferred over to the Physics department.
<hkhenson> no.
<Utnapishtim> John Ventrueville: I really like this premise... I may put together a short story based on it...
<John_Ventureville> because think of the world 1504 A.D. having our level of technology...., SCARY!!
<kzzch> anyone else on orkut that i can add to my friends list to pad it out a bit?
<planetp> me!
<BJKlein> "The supernatural is the natural not yet understood." -- Albert Einstein
<planetp> Kzzch- whats your real name?
<kzzch> Jeremiah Biard
<planetp> I like that quote BJ!
<kzzch> I'm on BJ's list
<hkhenson> I started hearing about nanotech from eric about 1979
<Utnapishtim> John: Can you imagine the peloponesian war with industrial age technology?
<planetp> Wow, yeah, that's fantastic.
<hkhenson> so by 85 I signed up iwth alcor
<BJKlein> i'll be happy to add anyone as an Orkut.com friend.. just PM me
<kzzch> I like his quote on human stupidity being infinite.
<John_Ventureville> I would like to think the increases in technology would have an effect on the ethical development of civilization, but that might not have been
<planetp> I first heard of Drexler in that famous photo og him and Geral K Oneil testing the desktop mass driver.
<Utnapishtim> John: Well the Athenian greeks WERE pretty much ahead of everyones else up to the renaissance intellectually and morally
<John_Ventureville> Utnap, Athens would have really kicked the conservative Spartans into submission
<hkhenson> the UofA physics dept has deep connections to L5.
<John_Ventureville> the Spartans were tough as nails, but not technically innovative to say the least
<Utnapishtim> I know
<weirdnrg> "The mind-boggling possibility is that we may ultimately be capable of reconnecting, through massively parallel connections, to various so-called inanimate objects such as trees, rocks, and stars, and directly feeling their consciousness."
<Utnapishtim> Has this been done before?
<hkhenson> friend of mine there, one Dan Jones, high energy type dude brought me the original 1974 physics today space colony article the day it came to them
<Utnapishtim> Athenians developing steam power?
<weirdnrg> "Once intuitively in communication with another biological sentience, consciousness may join like two fusing drops of water. We may thus mind-meld with specially prepared clones, sharing cumulative cognitive and emotional experience. As the old body withers and dies, it will be much the same as an amputated limb. Biological immortality will thereby be achieved."
<planetp> Jermiah - just added you on Orkut.
<weirdnrg>
http://www.imaginati...lution/devo.htm<weirdnrg> Stephen Thaler - Devolution of Consciousness
<kzzch> cool beans
<hkhenson> what is orkut?
<weirdnrg> nice writing
<Utnapishtim> in science fiction?
<planetp> Keith, what's your email address, i'll invite you!!
* BJKlein is starting to focus on Brain-Computer Interfacing Tech more
<Utnapishtim> Seems like the sort of thing Harry Turtledove would write
<planetp> or u can email me directly = psiphius@yahoo.com
<hkhenson> done, see PM
<planetp> :-)
<thefirstimmortal> So Bruce, do you know what is going on at as far as the legal issues?
<BJKlein> hmm.. i know it's much less attention vs biotech
<BJKlein> thus i suspect much less legal as well
<BJKlein> don't really think there's any law or pending bill to regulate BCI yet
<John_Ventureville> alternate worlds fiction has been quite popular lately, Turtledove's alternate America series was a big hit
<kzzch> I'm assuming I just added you, paul
<planetp> yep!
<kzzch> I took your name from the chat topic
<thefirstimmortal> So would it be fair to say that Alcor isn't too interested in legal research
<planetp> Kieth, i didn't get your pm, was it sent thru imminst.org??
<BJKlein> planetp, it may have been Chat PM
<BJKlein> check the top for red buttom in chat window
<planetp> oh! got it!!
<Utnapishtim> I REALLY like the Classical Industrial revolution the more I think about it
<BJKlein> thefirstimmortal, i would think Alcor would be very interested in legal help..
<BJKlein> just building a relationship is needed.. they already have individual lawyers helping
<thefirstimmortal> What does their legal staff consist of right now?
<John_Ventureville> the Greeks would have probably been in an ideal position to deal with the ethical/philosophical issues of an industrial revolution
<thefirstimmortal> Paid legal help?
<BJKlein> no legal team though.. this is from from Tanya
<planetp> Ok, Kieth , you have an Orkut invite, hopefully its in your inbox, and not in your spam folder.
<BJKlein> hmm.. i don't know if they have paid legal help
<Utnapishtim> They would have struggled to extrapolate practical applications of course
<thefirstimmortal> I don't gel well with paid lawyers
<BJKlein> you're a primo, ti's understandable
<Utnapishtim> because it would have seemed a course and vulgar preoccupation with practicvalities to their slaveholder society mindsets
<John_Ventureville> supposedly a Greek inventor made a small steam engine about the size of a lawnmower and had it zip down a road, it was seen as a highly amusing toy and nothing more
<John_Ventureville> *lack of vision*
<thefirstimmortal> a primo?
<BJKlein> Randolfe Randolfe Randolfe Wicker
<BJKlein> primo = BJ slang for great
<Utnapishtim> What happens when the romans get their hands on it
<Randolfe> Yes, BJ, I took a shower.
<planetp> I came up with an optical communication system that would have allowed romans to communicate from briton to Rome in 24 hours.
<BJKlein> ha.. good to have a clean Randy
you get my package per chance?
<BJKlein> or rather your package
<thefirstimmortal> I could work with Caliban no problem, but regular lawyers are too concerned about their reputations, or working relationships with the other side
<Randolfe> Yes, I did. Thanks a lot.
<BJKlein> thought you may like to have a few extra.. great
<John_Ventureville> there is a great alternate universe series about a 20th century engineer who travels through time by accident to medieval Poland and gives them the technology to repel various invaders
<Utnapishtim> The idea that greater efficiency/utility should automatically invalidate older ways of doing things seems a very western idea, even today
<John_Ventureville> goes from being an ordinary guy to the king's friend and quite a lady's man
<planetp> Doesn't anyone find it interesting, that most authors who ventured close to the Singularity have retreated and are now writing hisotorical fiction?
<John_Ventureville> *and they say science fiction is porn for engineers*
<planetp> or contemporary science fiction.
<John_Ventureville> : )
<planetp> Gibson, Sterling, Neil Stephenson.
* BJKlein is still awaiting Kurzweil's "The Singularity is Near"
<Utnapishtim> John: I like that!!!
<Randolfe> I think it is interesting how different people become fixated on different ideas--nanotechnology, the singularity, cloning, cryonics, etc.
<kzzch> eh, maybe because it's not cutting edge any more?
<John_Ventureville> Utnap, it's a cool series!
<John_Ventureville> I just can't recall the name
<kzzch> I don't think I'll get around to reading quicksilver
<hkhenson> paul, the french implimented that system just before the telegraph came along
<planetp> It's always cutting egde, because the singularity keeps retreating... by definition.
<BJKlein> Randy, i'm interested in this also.. how individual humans seem to work on different important projects.. and have deep conviction
<Utnapishtim> BJ: Given Kurzweils optimistic timeframe for his books publications perhaps we need to wonder about his prediction timeframe in general!
<kzzch> and while i liked pattern recognition, it just didn't have the same bite as his older stuff
<planetp> Kieth, you mean an optical/mirror system? :-)
<John_Ventureville> Utnap, LOL!
<hkhenson> yes
<Randolfe> I just got Io cable TV which has about 200 channels. We need a posting site on Imminst so we can share interesting programs coming up on certain channels.
<John_Ventureville> I'm really looking forward to Max More's upcoming book.
<planetp> Cool, i wasn't aware of that.
<hkhenson> john, I know the author of that series, frankowsky
<John_Ventureville> very cool!
<John_Ventureville> thank you
<planetp> Utnapisthtim - i think Kurzweil prediction will turn out to be TOO CONSERVATIVE
<BJKlein> Randy, please feel free to start a topic under the Action & Reaching out forum
<hkhenson> he lives in russia now
<Randolfe> I taped an HBO "on demand" documentary about this fellow who was executed in Texas, gave his body to science and ended up being frozen, sliced into thousands of mm size slices and turned into "the virtual human" which is used in medical schools and is somewhere on the internet.
<John_Ventureville> I read about that.
<John_Ventureville> not quite the kind of upload that I want
<hkhenson> actually he was not sliced
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<BJKlein> talk about cutting edge
<hkhenson> they used a milling machine . . . . .
<Randolfe> I'll do that BJ. I am still catching up from being away for eight or nine days and all that damn tax stuff I have been ignoring.
<BJKlein> take your time there Randy, take care of your health first
<planetp> Wow, it takes a major stomach to be the one soing the slicing on that milling machine.
<Randolfe> Yes, they said they "ground" him up. I didn't understand the difference.
<utnapishtee> Re Churchills History... It reads like an informal lecture from a dogmatic old man but brilliant old man
<utnapishtee> you can almost smell the cigar smoke and the brandy
<thefirstimmortal> See you all next week for the Alcor Chat. Sorry hkhenson for my spelling error, and of course, Live Long and Well. William Constitution O'Rights
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<Randolfe> What was interesting from our standpoint is how the idea of "him" continued to be attached to the milled up body.
<BJKlein> seya next week Bill
<John_Ventureville> my school a few years back offered a super-concentrated 400 level summer class on Churchill but I was not able to take it
<Randolfe> Good night, everyone.
<John_Ventureville> bye, immortal
<utnapishtee> A truly fascinating man
<planetp> I'm heading out too, night all.
<John_Ventureville> bye!
<utnapishtee> night!
<BJKlein> fun chatter tonight.. thanks planetp!!
<planetp> thank you Bruce!!
