45 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I'm calling BS on this unless you have a study to back up your claim.

The difference between you and I is that I speculate a little more than you. I don't rely solely on studies, many of which conflict, to gain a pathway to truth.

If dietary factors were significantly driving up testosterone levels in American men, Okinawan men would not be reporting higher serum testosterone than Americans.

Not if that greater testosterone intake is converting to DHT before it can hit the cell receptors as free testosterone.

In this study [source], isoflavones such as those found in soy, were administered to healthy Japanese males to lower DHT levels. While the isoflavones succeeded in lowering DHT, they also lowered serum testosterone.

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

[GoodFellas]

How does this *testo diet* look?


Meal 1:
24g Whey Protein
1 Egg
150g of Oatmeal




Meal 2 (after workout):
1-2 Bananas.
50g Whey Protein




Meal 3:
3 Tomatoes (A vitamin that raises the testosterone levels)
Some garlic (garlic raises the testosterone)
150g of Oatmeal
A little bit of celery (celery raises the testosterone)





Meal 4:
2 Pieces of bread
100g of Cashew Nuts (need to find something cheaper though)





Meal before going to bed:
1-2 carrots (A vitamin)
2 eggs
Some spinach
Some broccoli and cabbage
Extra bananas if I feel hungry
24g whey protein







I'm aiming for having a diet with more carbohydrates than protein, because if I did vise versa would decrease the testosterone levels. I'm also trying to keep the fat at 30%. Also, I'm I getting enough B5, B6 and folic acid?



Don't be afraid to criticize;)

Edited by GoodFellas, 09 August 2009 - 11:26 AM.

[Skötkonung]

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

[JLL]

In this study [source], isoflavones such as those found in soy, were administered to healthy Japanese males to lower DHT levels. While the isoflavones succeeded in lowering DHT, they also lowered serum testosterone. That is because the two share a causative realtionship. This would imply that any dietary influence that lowers DHT concentrations, would also be lowering serum testosterone.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, I don't think this is true. See for example this study: Soy protein isolate reduces DHT in healthy young men.

Soy protein isolate and testosterone

Halfway through the experiment, testosterone levels were slightly lower in the low-isoflavone diet (19.8 nmol/L) than the high-isoflavone diet (22.0 nmol/L) and the milk protein diet (22.1 nmol/L). At the end of the experiment, there was no statistically significant difference between testosterone levels. Levels of free testosterone were similar during all three diets.

Soy protein isolate and DHT

Serum dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and was decreased by the low-isoflavone diet (1952 pmol/L) and the high-isoflavone diet (1962 pmol/L) compared to the milk protein diet (2155 pmol/L) at the end of the experiment. The ratio of DHT to testosterone was also decreased.

So there are ways to change DHT/T ratio through diet. Basically anything that acts as a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor would do this. Furthermore, even when both DHT and T increase/decrease, the rate at which they do may not be the same (see for example this). In most cases an increase in testosterone probably means an increase in DHT and a decrease in testosterone means a reduction in DHT, but not always.

[kenj]

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

O/T: Well, I don't think a higher protein-to-carb ratio is a disaster, considered u got (relatively) "low air pollution level in the big cities"; "high percentage of the population having access to the clean portable water and good sanitary conditions"; "low children death-rate level"; "low level of the tuberculosis expansion rate"; "high physician density per 1000 of people" (from a list of most healthy countries -- Forbes magazine), -
as you may know northern europe share these excellent living conditions, which ISTM will carry you far. However I'm not sure if there really are so many 'vigorous' centenarians in Iceland, at least not like you find among the japanese (Okinawa).

[TheFountain]

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

The most important part of what you said is the word 'second'.

[TheFountain]

In this study [source], isoflavones such as those found in soy, were administered to healthy Japanese males to lower DHT levels. While the isoflavones succeeded in lowering DHT, they also lowered serum testosterone. That is because the two share a causative realtionship. This would imply that any dietary influence that lowers DHT concentrations, would also be lowering serum testosterone.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, I don't think this is true. See for example this study: Soy protein isolate reduces DHT in healthy young men.

Soy protein isolate and testosterone

Halfway through the experiment, testosterone levels were slightly lower in the low-isoflavone diet (19.8 nmol/L) than the high-isoflavone diet (22.0 nmol/L) and the milk protein diet (22.1 nmol/L). At the end of the experiment, there was no statistically significant difference between testosterone levels. Levels of free testosterone were similar during all three diets.

Soy protein isolate and DHT

Serum dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and was decreased by the low-isoflavone diet (1952 pmol/L) and the high-isoflavone diet (1962 pmol/L) compared to the milk protein diet (2155 pmol/L) at the end of the experiment. The ratio of DHT to testosterone was also decreased.

So there are ways to change DHT/T ratio through diet. Basically anything that acts as a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor would do this. Furthermore, even when both DHT and T increase/decrease, the rate at which they do may not be the same (see for example this). In most cases an increase in testosterone probably means an increase in DHT and a decrease in testosterone means a reduction in DHT, but not always.

On another note the study shows that a low isoflavone high soy diet can promote estrogen production as well.

'At the end of the study, serum estradiol and estrone were increased by the low-isoflavone diet compared with the milk protein diet. Levels of SHBG, gonadotropins, and 3-alpha-AG (a marker of 5-alpha-reductase activity), did not vary significantly between the diets. DHEA-S was increased by the low-isoflavone diet, but DHEA levels were not significantly different.'

I wonder if Okinawan men tend to be moody. Or maybe they don't consume low isoflavone soy.

Edited by TheFountain, 10 August 2009 - 12:22 PM.

[GoodFellas]

How does this *testo diet* look?


Meal 1:
24g Whey Protein
1 Egg
150g of Oatmeal




Meal 2 (after workout):
1-2 Bananas.
50g Whey Protein




Meal 3:
3 Tomatoes (A vitamin that raises the testosterone levels)
Some garlic (garlic raises the testosterone)
150g of Oatmeal
A little bit of celery (celery raises the testosterone)





Meal 4:
2 Pieces of bread
100g of Cashew Nuts (need to find something cheaper though)





Meal before going to bed:
1-2 carrots (A vitamin)
2 eggs
Some spinach
Some broccoli and cabbage
Extra bananas if I feel hungry
24g whey protein







I'm aiming for having a diet with more carbohydrates than protein, because if I did vise versa would decrease the testosterone levels. I'm also trying to keep the fat at 30%. Also, I'm I getting enough B5, B6 and folic acid?



Don't be afraid to criticize;)

Any thoughts about this?

Please take the debate on Asian men or whatever it was someplace else;)

[Skötkonung]

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

The most important part of what you said is the word 'second'.

When second means a difference of .2 years, I would hardly call that significant

[Skötkonung]

In this study [source], isoflavones such as those found in soy, were administered to healthy Japanese males to lower DHT levels. While the isoflavones succeeded in lowering DHT, they also lowered serum testosterone. That is because the two share a causative realtionship. This would imply that any dietary influence that lowers DHT concentrations, would also be lowering serum testosterone.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, I don't think this is true. See for example this study: Soy protein isolate reduces DHT in healthy young men.

Soy protein isolate and testosterone

Halfway through the experiment, testosterone levels were slightly lower in the low-isoflavone diet (19.8 nmol/L) than the high-isoflavone diet (22.0 nmol/L) and the milk protein diet (22.1 nmol/L). At the end of the experiment, there was no statistically significant difference between testosterone levels. Levels of free testosterone were similar during all three diets.

Soy protein isolate and DHT

Serum dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and was decreased by the low-isoflavone diet (1952 pmol/L) and the high-isoflavone diet (1962 pmol/L) compared to the milk protein diet (2155 pmol/L) at the end of the experiment. The ratio of DHT to testosterone was also decreased.

So there are ways to change DHT/T ratio through diet. Basically anything that acts as a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor would do this. Furthermore, even when both DHT and T increase/decrease, the rate at which they do may not be the same (see for example this). In most cases an increase in testosterone probably means an increase in DHT and a decrease in testosterone means a reduction in DHT, but not always.

I found this interesting: High protein diets, at least in some studies, appear to inhibit the production of 5-alpha-reductase.

The Effects of Diet on Testosterone Part 1: Calories and Protein
http://www.thinkmusc...don/diet-01.htm

"A high protein diet has been shown to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase which may result in a reduction of the conversion of testosterone to DHT, a more potent form of testosterone, which has been implicated in prostate enlargement.



Conversely a low protein, high carbohydrate diet stimulates 5-alpha-reductase."

http://www.nourishin...ement_diet.html

"I was recently told by my doctor that a high protein diet (ie. Tuna, Milk, etc.) could reduce my acne because it helps inhibit the 5-alpha reductase enzyme which converts testosterone to the potent and harmful DHT."
http://answers.googl...dview?id=201874

Value of high-protein diet is clearer than drawbacks
http://www.nature.co...ll/439266b.html

I realize these aren't great sources, but I don't have time today to troll through the medical literature. Perhaps someone would like to provide some clarification on the link between high-protein diets and DHT. I also saw a study where women with PCOS, 5-alpha-reductase was linked to insulin stimulation.

http://www.biolrepro...ngAbstracts/563

I would be curious to see if that has any relevance to the Dr's recommendation in the Google Answers link listed above. If 5-alpha-reductase is linked to insulin activity, it would explain why acne occurrence is higher in cultures where processed carbohydrates are consumed more frequently.

http://www.drbriffa....ctive-for-acne/

For the Okinawans, it might be a combination of low caloric intake, high isoflavones, activity level, and low glycemic load that reduces their sex hormone linked cancers.

Edited by Skotkonung, 10 August 2009 - 07:26 PM.

[TheFountain]

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

The most important part of what you said is the word 'second'.

When second means a difference of .2 years, I would hardly call that significant

You are talking about the average mean life span. More Okinawans live to be 90 and older than do icelandic folk.

Edited by TheFountain, 10 August 2009 - 08:00 PM.

[thestuffjunky]

With no medical, psychological or scientific credentials, I have 3 things to say about my consensus of ImmInst and meme. Rule #1:Take care of what you have, for you will have it for a long time. 2:Take care of it even more effectively and efficiently from meme. and not because society forced people to be vein. 3:Do what you can to help the cause. As for the testoterone, I agree with any man that is still in his 30s and older(im 31), it is a naturally evolved hormone. If you add more and force other parts of your body to become overtaxed in their job(s), then you breached rule #1. I am 6'4" 195#s and tone(catch me if you can). I am more aware of the dangers of 'pumping' the body.(creatine, protein, hormones, etc.) then most dietatricians. heck, Id love to be 220 like I was when i was 6'2" and 18yo or so... It is a great idea to eat vitamins and supplement the body before or after a workout, however, 'pumping' hormones is like adding nitro fuel and smashing the gas. keep doing that and you will need to repair/rebuild your engine every other race... stick with vitamins and nootropics....

[Skötkonung]

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

The most important part of what you said is the word 'second'.

When second means a difference of .2 years, I would hardly call that significant

You are talking about the average mean life span. More Okinawans live to be 90 and older than do icelandic folk.

I suggest you review the data at http://www.lifetable.de/.

When you start comparing centenarians per 10,000 persons age 80 and over you see that the difference between Okinawa and Iceland aren't so big.

[TheFountain]

Remember, we are talking about aging men and DHT levels. Maybe there is another component of the Okinawan diet that inhibits the enzyme responsible for this conversion. I know I am speculating, but I do not mind, because the evidence is clear that Okinawan men are healthier and aging more gracefully than american men, and a major component of the Okinawan diet is lack of meat consumption. To say that the lack of meat consumption plays no role is silly when it is plainly obviously.

And what about Iceland, who has life expectancy second to Okinawa, and consumes a very high animal product diet?

The most important part of what you said is the word 'second'.

When second means a difference of .2 years, I would hardly call that significant

You are talking about the average mean life span. More Okinawans live to be 90 and older than do icelandic folk.

I suggest you review the data at http://www.lifetable.de/.

When you start comparing centenarians per 10,000 persons age 80 and over you see that the difference between Okinawa and Iceland aren't so big.

I was just correcting for the amount of unknown 90+ year olds there are probably dwelling in Okinawa. Statistics are only useful to a point, we don't know everything.

[immortali457]

Show me some REAL science showing DHT accelerates bone growth after puberty?

Edited by immortali457, 12 August 2009 - 03:39 AM.

[HealthologisT]

Sweet Potatoes, Yams, Carrots, Onions....