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GHB as a neuroprotective agent/nootropic?


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#31 acantelopepope

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 06:16 PM

Heroin is "not addictive" if you use it less than 2 times a week. ;)

I'm not saying GHB is crap, but it's darn easy to form a habit if you got a litre or so. :) Actually, GHB is one of my fav's when it comes to the effects. But that is not making me blind and start calling it "liquid gold" and nonaddictive just because it like it. Another problem is correct dosing, since it affects you like benzo and alcohol, your judgement is not exactly 100 % when you are on it. I've seen soo much.. Hypersmart and successful people that have used it for years, but still pass out in public, etc etc..


Mortuorum:You could probably say the same about benzodiazepines and heroin too. The poison is always in the dose. Did you know that GHB-withdrawal can be lethal? Just like with benzodiazepines, another GABA-fucker. Heroin is very soft on the body, absolutely harmless in that aspect. Just like GHB, its just that little problem some ppl take too much of it, or get addicted. Does that sound familiar? Should heroin be legal?

Try googling GHB withdrawal or GHB addiction. Oh yeah, it's just a conspiracy..

GHB withdrawal is pure hell, its a great substance when used correcly but saying that it doesnt cause any addiction is just bullshit.

Heroin lowers testosterone and is not recommend for ppl that are working out, but the real big problem with heroin thats it extremely addictive so you can never recommend this shit to anyone, it shouldnt be compared.

Correctly used it doesnt cause any addiction, which was also shown by a xyrem studie (just 2 doses max a day).

GHB is also healthier then alcohol so its definatly recommend to ppl that get drunk every week, it also deepens sleep unlike benzo's.


Since there has been a big crackdown on substances which can be synthesized to create GHB, such as GBL, how are you obtaining this stuff? Are you buying it from sketchy dealers, or is it still possible to make it yourself without being part of an operation?

#32 medievil

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 06:31 PM

Heroin is "not addictive" if you use it less than 2 times a week. ;)

I'm not saying GHB is crap, but it's darn easy to form a habit if you got a litre or so. :) Actually, GHB is one of my fav's when it comes to the effects. But that is not making me blind and start calling it "liquid gold" and nonaddictive just because it like it. Another problem is correct dosing, since it affects you like benzo and alcohol, your judgement is not exactly 100 % when you are on it. I've seen soo much.. Hypersmart and successful people that have used it for years, but still pass out in public, etc etc..


Mortuorum:You could probably say the same about benzodiazepines and heroin too. The poison is always in the dose. Did you know that GHB-withdrawal can be lethal? Just like with benzodiazepines, another GABA-fucker. Heroin is very soft on the body, absolutely harmless in that aspect. Just like GHB, its just that little problem some ppl take too much of it, or get addicted. Does that sound familiar? Should heroin be legal?

Try googling GHB withdrawal or GHB addiction. Oh yeah, it's just a conspiracy..

GHB withdrawal is pure hell, its a great substance when used correcly but saying that it doesnt cause any addiction is just bullshit.

Heroin lowers testosterone and is not recommend for ppl that are working out, but the real big problem with heroin thats it extremely addictive so you can never recommend this shit to anyone, it shouldnt be compared.

Correctly used it doesnt cause any addiction, which was also shown by a xyrem studie (just 2 doses max a day).

GHB is also healthier then alcohol so its definatly recommend to ppl that get drunk every week, it also deepens sleep unlike benzo's.

I know, ive also been warning ppl against addiction and i also called the claims that its non addictive bullshit, fact is that it wont cause addiction if you take 2 days of every week and take a max of 2 doses a day, be very strict in doing this. Thos sites are very dangerous and make ppl take GHB without restriction with all consequenses.

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#33 medievil

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 06:32 PM

Heroin is "not addictive" if you use it less than 2 times a week. ;)

I'm not saying GHB is crap, but it's darn easy to form a habit if you got a litre or so. :) Actually, GHB is one of my fav's when it comes to the effects. But that is not making me blind and start calling it "liquid gold" and nonaddictive just because it like it. Another problem is correct dosing, since it affects you like benzo and alcohol, your judgement is not exactly 100 % when you are on it. I've seen soo much.. Hypersmart and successful people that have used it for years, but still pass out in public, etc etc..


Mortuorum:You could probably say the same about benzodiazepines and heroin too. The poison is always in the dose. Did you know that GHB-withdrawal can be lethal? Just like with benzodiazepines, another GABA-fucker. Heroin is very soft on the body, absolutely harmless in that aspect. Just like GHB, its just that little problem some ppl take too much of it, or get addicted. Does that sound familiar? Should heroin be legal?

Try googling GHB withdrawal or GHB addiction. Oh yeah, it's just a conspiracy..

GHB withdrawal is pure hell, its a great substance when used correcly but saying that it doesnt cause any addiction is just bullshit.

Heroin lowers testosterone and is not recommend for ppl that are working out, but the real big problem with heroin thats it extremely addictive so you can never recommend this shit to anyone, it shouldnt be compared.

Correctly used it doesnt cause any addiction, which was also shown by a xyrem studie (just 2 doses max a day).

GHB is also healthier then alcohol so its definatly recommend to ppl that get drunk every week, it also deepens sleep unlike benzo's.


Since there has been a big crackdown on substances which can be synthesized to create GHB, such as GBL, how are you obtaining this stuff? Are you buying it from sketchy dealers, or is it still possible to make it yourself without being part of an operation?

Order it online, they will send it in a package. Its still availeble on the net.

#34 frchopin

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 04:54 AM

I think these rat experiments are relevant to the question:
Study

Abstract: γ-Hydroxybutyric acid (GHB), an endogenous organic acid catabolite of γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), has been shown to have tissue-protective effects in various organs, including the brain. We examined the potential neuroprotective effect of GHB and its chemical precursors, γ-butyrolactone (GBL) and 1,4-butanediol (1,4-BD), in the rodent ischemic stroke model by intraluminal filament middle cerebral artery occlusion (MCAO). Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats underwent transient left-sided MCAO and received intraperitoneal treatment with 300 mg/kg of GHB, GBL, 1,4-BD, or control vehicle given at 30 min before, as well as 180 and 360 min after the onset of ischemia. Infarct volumes were determined 24 h after MCAO. In transient MCAO, the mean volume of infarction for control rats was 464.4 ± 17.9 cu.mm versus 273.6 ± 53.1, 233.3 ± 44.7, and 275.4 ± 39.9 cu.mm for rats treated with 1,4-BD (P < 0.05), GBL (P < 0.05), and GHB (P < 0.05), respectively.We conclude that GHB, GBL, and 1,4-BD protect against rat focal cerebral ischemia from transient MCAO.

Study
Abstract

γ-Hydroxybutyrate (GHB) and its lactone, γ-butyrolactone (GBL) have been previously shown to produce a protective effect in animal models of cerebral ischaemia/hypoxia, as well as in human conditions of head injury-induced coma.
The aim of the present research was to study the effect of GHB in experimental conditions of focal cerebral damage, either induced by ischaemia or excitotoxicity. Under general anaesthesia, rats were injected into the right striatum with either endothelin-1 (ET-1, 0.43 nmol) or kainic acid (7.5 nmol) in a volume of 1 μl. Sham-lesioned rats received 1 μl of the solvent. Both ET-1- and kainic acid-lesioned rats were randomly assigned to one of the following intraperitoneal (i.p.) treatments: (i) and (ii) GHB, 100 or 300 mg kg−1 2 h after the lesion, followed by 50 or 100 mg kg−1, respectively, every 12 h; (iii) saline, 2 ml kg−1, same schedule. Sham animals were treated with saline, 2 ml kg−1, same schedule. Treatments lasted for 10 days. The higher dose of GHB produced a significant protection against the ET-1-induced impairments in sensory-motor orientation and coordinated limb use (evaluated 24 and 42 days after the lesion) and in place learning and memory (Morris test, performed 19 and 39 days after the lesion). The same dose regimen reduced the circling behaviour induced by apomorphine in kainate-lesioned rats (10 days after the lesion), and limited or prevented at all the histological damage produced either by ET-1 or by kainic acid (evaluated 43 or 10 days after the lesion, respectively). These results show that GHB limits both histological and functional consequences of a focal ischaemic or excitotoxic insult of the brain, in rats, even if the treatment is started 2 h after the lesion.

On the other side:

Gammahydroxybutyric acid (GHB) is an endogenous constituent of the central nervous system that has acquired great social relevance for its use as a recreational 'club drug'. GHB, popularly known as 'liquid ecstasy', is addictive when used continuously. Although the symptoms associated with acute intoxication are well known, the effects of prolonged use remain uncertain. We examined in male rats the effect of repeated administration of GHB (10 and 100 mg/kg) on various parameters: neurological damage, working memory and spatial memory, using neurological tests, the Morris water maze and the hole-board test. The results showed that repeated administration of GHB, especially at doses of 10 mg/kg, causes neurological damage, affecting the 'grasping' reflex, as well as alteration in spatial and working memories. Stereological quantification showed that this drug produces a drastic neuronal loss in the CA1 hippocampal region and in the prefrontal cortex, two areas clearly involved in cognitive and neurological functions. No effects were noted after quantification in the periaqueductal grey matter (PAG), a region lacking GHB receptors. Moreover, NCS-382, a putative antagonist of GHB receptor, prevented both neurological damage and working- memory impairment induced by GHB. This suggests that the effects of administration of this compound may be mediated, at least partly, by specific receptors in the nervous system. The results show for the first time that the repeated administration of GHB, especially at very low doses, produces neurotoxic effects. This is very relevant because its abuse, especially by young persons, could produce considerable neurological alterations after prolonged abuse.

On the other hand, from http://www.ceri.com/q_v7n4q1.htm

In a long-term dosing experiment in rodents, very high doses of butyrolactone showed a surprising lack of toxicity [NTIS, 1992]. The researchers gave 0, 112 and 225 mg/kg GBL to male rats; 0, 225 and 450 mg/kg GBL to female rats; and 0, 262 and 526 mg/kg GBL to both male and female mice. Scaled to human body size, these rodent dosages are about ten times what humans would use. The GBL was administered 5 days per week by gavage (stomach tube).

At the end of 2 years (old age, for rats), the survival of male rats was 48% for the control group, 54% for the intermediate-dose group and 64% for the high-dose group. That’s right, the GBL-treated male rats lived longer! This was attributed to a decreased incidence of mononuclear leukemia. In the female rats receiving double the dose of the male rats, the survival was not significantly different between the three groups: 56%, 54% and 54% respectively. However, the body weight of the GBL-dosed females was 10-20% lower than that of the controls.



Maybe the rats were dumb and lived longer?¿


Personally I use GBL for sleep from 1 week ago ( I suffer from Idiopathic Hypersomnia not yet treated) and I haven't converted it to GHB yet. I think I am better than before in the cognitive part, but this can be attributed to proper sleeping.

Judge for yourselves, there are a lot more studies on rats on the web.

Have a nice day.

Edited by frchopin, 15 October 2009 - 05:25 AM.


#35 Steve_86

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:42 AM

Order it online, they will send it in a package. Its still availeble on the net.


Even thou the risk is small the consequences would be huge if you were caught importing GHB? How can you take that risk?

#36 medievil

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 08:30 AM

@frchopin
Be carefull to take 2 days off every week, taken a few days off will prevent eventuel bad effects, i also take GBL. There was also a study showing a 2 day break would also prevent tolerance to the HGH raising effect.
Also could you translate the doses used in that bad rat studie to human doses?

@Steve_86
To be honest i wouldnt risk it in America. I'm from Belguim and order it from Holland, allways comes true fine.

Edit, your from Austrilia, well i dont know the laws in your country, GBL may still be legal over there.

Edited by medievil, 15 October 2009 - 09:04 AM.


#37 matter_of_time

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:04 PM

I have been using GBL and GHB for 8 years now. I prefer GHB/GBL over any other drugs/alcohol.

I always feel refreshed the next day and never had any tolerance issues. I don't find it very addicted.

Sometimes I use it four to five times a week, but normally not more then twice a week.

I think the HGH and nootropic effects are overrated, but GHB/GBL is very nice substance and is far less toxic then any other rec drugs or alcohol.

I go every week to the gym, GHB/GBL it does not have any effect on your body. Other supplements like SJW or creatine works much better.

BTW I prefer GBL over GHB. Just put 1 to 1.5 ml through your bitter lemon and you will be fine.

Don't forget the two important rules:
Never use alcohol and GHB/GBL at the same time
Always measure the amount of GHB/GBL

Edited by matter_of_time, 15 October 2009 - 03:08 PM.


#38 medievil

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 04:19 PM

I have been using GBL and GHB for 8 years now. I prefer GHB/GBL over any other drugs/alcohol.

I always feel refreshed the next day and never had any tolerance issues. I don't find it very addicted.

Sometimes I use it four to five times a week, but normally not more then twice a week.

I think the HGH and nootropic effects are overrated, but GHB/GBL is very nice substance and is far less toxic then any other rec drugs or alcohol.

I go every week to the gym, GHB/GBL it does not have any effect on your body. Other supplements like SJW or creatine works much better.

BTW I prefer GBL over GHB. Just put 1 to 1.5 ml through your bitter lemon and you will be fine.

Don't forget the two important rules:
Never use alcohol and GHB/GBL at the same time
Always measure the amount of GHB/GBL

I also prefer GBL above GHB ;)

#39 frchopin

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:56 AM

@medievil: There's a similar discussion on the drugs forum where a guy tries to translate rat doses to human doses: http://www.drugs-for...p;highlight=GHB

#40 platypus

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 01:23 PM

I think the HGH and nootropic effects are overrated, but GHB/GBL is very nice substance and is far less toxic then any other rec drugs or alcohol.

Is it really studied enough so one can state it's less toxic? There must be thousands of studies of the effects of alcohol on humans but are there even hundreds about the effects of GHB on human subjects?

#41 Ben

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 03:17 AM

I think the HGH and nootropic effects are overrated, but GHB/GBL is very nice substance and is far less toxic then any other rec drugs or alcohol.

Is it really studied enough so one can state it's less toxic? There must be thousands of studies of the effects of alcohol on humans but are there even hundreds about the effects of GHB on human subjects?


If you're going to take this purely quantitative approach, don't forget to multiply the weight of each (determined by the proportion of the amount of studies on each) by the severity of the reported adverse effects.

#42 medievil

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 11:29 AM

Well GBL has given to rats for their whole life and they seemed to live longer, enough proof that its non toxic to me. I'm a skeptical about that studie that showed a decrease in cognitive function tough, i didnt notice this at all when taking GBL daily for months, and non of my friends hadnt either (in fact i've never heared anyone say it decreased their cognitive function) unlike MDMA. I'm guessing way overdosed.

Edited by medievil, 14 November 2009 - 11:30 AM.


#43 medievil

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 11:30 AM

double post

Edited by medievil, 14 November 2009 - 11:30 AM.


#44 Thorsten3

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 04:07 PM

double post


So in a nutshell GBL is non toxic?? That makes me feel a bit healthier about my 'habit'!!
Although I'm running out of my bottle in the next day or so and the 'ban' is coming in at the end of December with myself unable to purchase any more GBL with my monthly pay this month. So 'G' will soon be a distant memory that I look back on with rose tinted glasses. Probably a good thing seeing as though my habit has turned into something quite chronic with this drug. For me the effects are too euphoric and not having the means to continue with my habit will be in my long term interets.
Deep down I know that caning this substance will not be beneficial for me in the long term!!
In reflection of my experience with GBL it is a great drug but one that is hard to moderate even for any responsible user.

#45 medievil

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 10:22 PM

double post


So in a nutshell GBL is non toxic?? That makes me feel a bit healthier about my 'habit'!!
Although I'm running out of my bottle in the next day or so and the 'ban' is coming in at the end of December with myself unable to purchase any more GBL with my monthly pay this month. So 'G' will soon be a distant memory that I look back on with rose tinted glasses. Probably a good thing seeing as though my habit has turned into something quite chronic with this drug. For me the effects are too euphoric and not having the means to continue with my habit will be in my long term interets.
Deep down I know that caning this substance will not be beneficial for me in the long term!!
In reflection of my experience with GBL it is a great drug but one that is hard to moderate even for any responsible user.

If you think its causing you harm just stop using. It worked wonders for my anhedonia and i never noticed any bad side effects. I cant tell for sure that its non toxic but when i used it daily my memory even improved because i stopped using MDMA, so it definatly doesnt cause a decrease in cognition for me.

#46 Thorsten3

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:19 PM

double post


So in a nutshell GBL is non toxic?? That makes me feel a bit healthier about my 'habit'!!
Although I'm running out of my bottle in the next day or so and the 'ban' is coming in at the end of December with myself unable to purchase any more GBL with my monthly pay this month. So 'G' will soon be a distant memory that I look back on with rose tinted glasses. Probably a good thing seeing as though my habit has turned into something quite chronic with this drug. For me the effects are too euphoric and not having the means to continue with my habit will be in my long term interets.
Deep down I know that caning this substance will not be beneficial for me in the long term!!
In reflection of my experience with GBL it is a great drug but one that is hard to moderate even for any responsible user.

If you think its causing you harm just stop using. It worked wonders for my anhedonia and i never noticed any bad side effects. I cant tell for sure that its non toxic but when i used it daily my memory even improved because i stopped using MDMA, so it definatly doesnt cause a decrease in cognition for me.


I don't really feel like it is causing me harm not in the same way alcohol does. But as I say, because of the ban in the UK with GBL I won't be able to take it anymore anyway so it's more a matter of irrelevance now.

#47 medievil

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:06 PM

double post


So in a nutshell GBL is non toxic?? That makes me feel a bit healthier about my 'habit'!!
Although I'm running out of my bottle in the next day or so and the 'ban' is coming in at the end of December with myself unable to purchase any more GBL with my monthly pay this month. So 'G' will soon be a distant memory that I look back on with rose tinted glasses. Probably a good thing seeing as though my habit has turned into something quite chronic with this drug. For me the effects are too euphoric and not having the means to continue with my habit will be in my long term interets.
Deep down I know that caning this substance will not be beneficial for me in the long term!!
In reflection of my experience with GBL it is a great drug but one that is hard to moderate even for any responsible user.

If you think its causing you harm just stop using. It worked wonders for my anhedonia and i never noticed any bad side effects. I cant tell for sure that its non toxic but when i used it daily my memory even improved because i stopped using MDMA, so it definatly doesnt cause a decrease in cognition for me.


I don't really feel like it is causing me harm not in the same way alcohol does. But as I say, because of the ban in the UK with GBL I won't be able to take it anymore anyway so it's more a matter of irrelevance now.

You would allways be able to order it, there is a demand so countries like poland and china will take over.

#48 Xeno

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:38 PM

I had a big bottle of it years ago before the FDA/DEA junta began demonizing it. It was the absolute best sleep-aid I have ever tried, hands down. I even used it recreationally a few times in place of alcohol. It was remarkable how similar it was to an alcohol buzz with none of the usual alcohol downside. The only problem I noticed was that the post-GHB dopamine rebound began making me overemotional and aggressive. Once I realized this, I went back to using it only as an occasional sleep aid. Never bothered getting more, and then it was banned. Bastards.

#49 medievil

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 01:23 PM

Apperantly G's neurotoxiticy is mediated by an increase in glutamate, this is why lower doses are more neurotoxic then higher doses as GABAB agonism decreases glutamate and does the opposite as GHB agonism.

I'm guessing an NMDA antagonist would block the neurotoxiticy.

Edited by medievil, 15 December 2009 - 01:23 PM.


#50 Thorsten3

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:03 PM

Apperantly G's neurotoxiticy is mediated by an increase in glutamate, this is why lower doses are more neurotoxic then higher doses as GABAB agonism decreases glutamate and does the opposite as GHB agonism.

I'm guessing an NMDA antagonist would block the neurotoxiticy.


hmmmm is that really true though?

I take GBL ocassionally and will take up to 5m spread throughout an evening. The sedative effects which are apparantly the result of GABA-b antagonistic effects will soon wear off within a few hours. This results in minimized sleep for me so there is quite a big rebound effect if you take enough of this drug. The after effect which is stimulating (or the dopamine rebound as some people call it) I would say is the glutamte neurotoxic effect. Some people say its a nice after effect but if you abuse this drug too much it really screws with your sleep and it doesn't feel neuroprotective in the slightest to me when it's fucking around with the quality of my sleep. But I still take it regardless because it's so much fun.

So i'm presuming you're taking memantine medievil? Do you find this counteracts any stimulating after effect that is potentially caused by G? Or do you only take G in small quanties, therefore not noticing much of a stimulating after effect? For me this drug is too pleasurable to take in small doses, very addictive.

#51 russianBEAR

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:55 PM

GHB and GBL may be non-toxic, but what does it matter if there is a pronounced withdrawal syndrome after cessation of use which is similar and sometimes worse than that of alcohol. It's pretty much on erowid and every other drug and anti-drug source. 

So obviously it's a no-go for daily use, but I was thinkin more like the initial HGH release during/after use could have a one-time nootropic effect, or using it infrequently can do so.

#52 medievil

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:39 PM

Apperantly G's neurotoxiticy is mediated by an increase in glutamate, this is why lower doses are more neurotoxic then higher doses as GABAB agonism decreases glutamate and does the opposite as GHB agonism.

I'm guessing an NMDA antagonist would block the neurotoxiticy.


hmmmm is that really true though?

I take GBL ocassionally and will take up to 5m spread throughout an evening. The sedative effects which are apparantly the result of GABA-b antagonistic effects will soon wear off within a few hours. This results in minimized sleep for me so there is quite a big rebound effect if you take enough of this drug. The after effect which is stimulating (or the dopamine rebound as some people call it) I would say is the glutamte neurotoxic effect. Some people say its a nice after effect but if you abuse this drug too much it really screws with your sleep and it doesn't feel neuroprotective in the slightest to me when it's fucking around with the quality of my sleep. But I still take it regardless because it's so much fun.

So i'm presuming you're taking memantine medievil? Do you find this counteracts any stimulating after effect that is potentially caused by G? Or do you only take G in small quanties, therefore not noticing much of a stimulating after effect? For me this drug is too pleasurable to take in small doses, very addictive.

When i have GHB is take it daily, i never noticed a dopamine rebound and IMO according to a pretty good source the dopamine rebound idea is completely bullshit, so it may indeed be a glutamate rebound or just a "comedown".

Lately i ran acros alot more studies about GHB's neurotoxiticy and most seem to point to oxidative stress, however its possible that glutamate does play a big role so i wouldnt take any GHB without memantine and powerfull antioxidants (like ALA etc).

I didnt notice a difference in the effects of GHB when i was on memantine, however i allways go asleep after GHB stops working and i never noticed any "rebound"(i never take GHB during the day wich is a TERRIBLE habit and will lead to DEADLY withdrawals, only take it in the evening, its important to not start a bigger habit so your mind starts to connect GHB to other times of the day)

I did notice that ppl that complained of the rebound get addicted to ghb alot faster, i think that is because of a glutamate surge, and glutamate is the key player in all addictions, i beleive that memantine should help with that.

GHB is not just another nootropic and should be handled with care, if you have an addictive personality stay far away.

I like GHB because it can enhance my life and imo it doesnt interfere with my main goal i'm on imminst for (life extension).
My underlying conditions also play a role in my GHB use as i have bad anhedonia.

Edited by medievil, 15 March 2010 - 10:49 PM.

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#53 Lestat Rett

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 02:10 AM

Recent research suggests that GHB (and of course the ultrarapidly metabolised lipophilic pro-drug GBL) has a biphasic dose response curve, GHB at high concentrations acts as a GABAb agonist, whilst at low doses it primarily acts as a high affinity agonistic ligand upon tge GHB receptor, a novel g-protein coupled receptor, activation of this induces glutamate release, and selective ligands, or indeed low doses (IIRC it was below 10mg/kg, but I'l have to check my figures when I am not right about to go to bed) blow holes in the hippocampus, causing severe neurotoxicity.

GABAb activation at the high recreational and sedative doses usually used reduces glutamate release, so the two effects counteract each other when there is enough circulating GHB to reach the EC-50 at GABAb, but I have mixed feelings about the safety of the stuff now.

I have a fair lot of experience with the stuff, its dose-response curve is steep, and it doesn't take all that much to turn a good time into a puke fest, or a puke fest into unconsciousness, and having felt it dig its claws into me in the past, now I will only ever buy it in tiny quantities, maybe 100ml at most.

The withdrawal is absolute hell, capable of causing severe paranoid psychosis, MASSIVE noradrenaline release, and seemingly joint inflammation, my ankles swelled, and hurt so badly, as did my feet and already pretty awful knee joints, to the extent that I couldn't even stand, this took over a week to subside, and one of the two times it happened, I got BZD treatment using lorazepam (thankfully I had used the last of my GBL to keep me out of withdrawal the previous night, and write a very detailed report on the pharmacokinetics and pharmacology of GHB, as my locum GP had never even heard of the stuff), lucky I did, as even on taking a dose in the surgery loo, it wore off quick enough for cognitive ability to explain and communicate verbally, which as soon as I actually picked up the script, came the onset of myoclonic seizures, I almost bit off my damn fingers so quick did I have to stick 5mg of ativan under my tongue.

One thing that makes it so damn dangerous is the speed that its GABAb activity wears off, leaving purely excitatory effects which in WD, worsen it considerably and make seizures more likely, it wouldn't surprise me if with regular use, with GBL in particular, it upregulates its own metabolism, GBL specifically if I decide to use some, first few days at baseline, I am considerably less sensitive to a given dose, then all of a sudden, that same dose, and I do not use long enough to form a tolerance, that same dose, slaps me down flat on my arse.

Wether it applies to GHB, I am not sure, although 1,4-butanediol, which I have never tried, inhibits enzymes required for its metabolism, so has a really fruity pharmacokinetic profile, especially in combination with even small quantities of alcohol, which IIRC, prevent its metabolism to GBL, the active form (well, quasi-active in that it is ring opened to the hydroxybutyric ester in mere minutes), so it takes until the EtOH is wearing off, or little has been drunk for a while, where the unwary user may think oh, hey, it isn't working, or its weak as hell, lets take a big slug out of the bottle for more effect, and then bang! it all hits at once, ODing the poor bugger.

Great stuff in moderation though, I occasionally get some free with the bulk packs of superglue I occasionally buy (UK) that come with free accelerator and debonder (which in this brands case is a tiny bottle of GBL :D ) so whenever I need trade quantities of superglue for a DIY project, it comes with a free night in to unwind after.

Watch out though, a good few superglue removers do contain GBL, look at the MSDS, but many contain the very useful nitromethane, or sometimes DMF, think I saw acetonitrile in one too.



Neither of which one wants to drink.

#54 russianBEAR

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 09:02 AM

Apperantly G's neurotoxiticy is mediated by an increase in glutamate, this is why lower doses are more neurotoxic then higher doses as GABAB agonism decreases glutamate and does the opposite as GHB agonism.

I'm guessing an NMDA antagonist would block the neurotoxiticy.


hmmmm is that really true though?

I take GBL ocassionally and will take up to 5m spread throughout an evening. The sedative effects which are apparantly the result of GABA-b antagonistic effects will soon wear off within a few hours. This results in minimized sleep for me so there is quite a big rebound effect if you take enough of this drug. The after effect which is stimulating (or the dopamine rebound as some people call it) I would say is the glutamte neurotoxic effect. Some people say its a nice after effect but if you abuse this drug too much it really screws with your sleep and it doesn't feel neuroprotective in the slightest to me when it's fucking around with the quality of my sleep. But I still take it regardless because it's so much fun.

So i'm presuming you're taking memantine medievil? Do you find this counteracts any stimulating after effect that is potentially caused by G? Or do you only take G in small quanties, therefore not noticing much of a stimulating after effect? For me this drug is too pleasurable to take in small doses, very addictive.

When i have GHB is take it daily, i never noticed a dopamine rebound and IMO according to a pretty good source the dopamine rebound idea is completely bullshit, so it may indeed be a glutamate rebound or just a "comedown".

Lately i ran acros alot more studies about GHB's neurotoxiticy and most seem to point to oxidative stress, however its possible that glutamate does play a big role so i wouldnt take any GHB without memantine and powerfull antioxidants (like ALA etc).

I didnt notice a difference in the effects of GHB when i was on memantine, however i allways go asleep after GHB stops working and i never noticed any "rebound"(i never take GHB during the day wich is a TERRIBLE habit and will lead to DEADLY withdrawals, only take it in the evening, its important to not start a bigger habit so your mind starts to connect GHB to other times of the day)

I did notice that ppl that complained of the rebound get addicted to ghb alot faster, i think that is because of a glutamate surge, and glutamate is the key player in all addictions, i beleive that memantine should help with that.

GHB is not just another nootropic and should be handled with care, if you have an addictive personality stay far away.

I like GHB because it can enhance my life and imo it doesnt interfere with my main goal i'm on imminst for (life extension).
My underlying conditions also play a role in my GHB use as i have bad anhedonia.





I don't know exactly what is getting the "rebounds" there, but somethin is definitely rebounding well enough to be in the NBA ;))) 

There's definitely a marked effect directly opposite of how G affects you. You get restless, overly energetic (not a bad thing if you're about to go work out, but at the same time you're somewhat uncomfortable), can't sleep more than 4 hours if you pass out under the influence, and definitely something happens with the blood pressure. 

These are just my own observations from a few uses, if you do it a lot then the reboudn effect sometimes starts about an hour after ingestion. I was seriously beatin my chest in like king kong one time, and felt like I was about to spontaneously combust. :) 

Dunno if it's the dopamine rebound, but there's a marked affect taking you the other way, even from single use. Depression and being burned out is also common for the next day, if you combine it with alcohol like I do sometimes. 

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#55 medievil

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 11:22 AM

I havent noticed any of those aftereffects, i wake up feeling great and refreshed the next day, i take loads of redoses at the evening and go sleep when it wears off and have a awesome night of sleep without waking up in the midle of the night.
I gues i'm lucky ;)

For me its the best candidate for getting a sustainable daily euphoria (if properly managed that is) and taken the right ammount of precautions (antioxidants, memantine etc).

I do have ADHD-I and GHB energizes me alot, while amphetamine makes me relaxed and sometimes sleepy when i'm really tired (if i worked a long day and want to stay awake for some more time amphetamines puts me to sleep right away (therapeutic doses that is) while GHB energizes me).

Edited by medievil, 16 March 2010 - 11:25 AM.

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