29 replies to this topic

[mentatpsi]

Piracetam diminishes hippocampal acetylcholine levels in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7231039

...
That sounds beneficial...

Just wanted to cite that for a more "whole" view of Piracetam.
Another aspect to look into:

Effect of oxiracetam and piracetam on central cholinergic mechanisms and active-avoidance acquisition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Ben]

I'm no expert, but wouldn't decreasing acetylcholine in the hippocampus be a bad thing?

[Legis]

Not a real surprise, why else there would be recommendation to take choline with it?

Also elsewhere have been stated that it increases muscarinic (acetylcholine) receptors density. This is due effect of lowering acetylcholine levels.

[nito]

anything that lowers choline levels makes u less able cognitavely right?

[mentatpsi]

I'm no expert, but wouldn't decreasing acetylcholine in the hippocampus be a bad thing?

Yea, that's what I was thinking. It's possible Piracetam would be best taken occasionally rather than consistently.

Not a real surprise, why else there would be recommendation to take choline with it?

Also elsewhere have been stated that it increases muscarinic (acetylcholine) receptors density. This is due effect of lowering acetylcholine levels.

As far as increasing the muscarnic receptor density; that was found primarily in aged rats, the effect wasn't observed within young rats i don't believe. That's an interesting thought, though i would expect if that were the case it would be consistent within young rats as well. Of course i'm no biologist so this is just my own thought. Any takers?

[bran319]

I don't know if we can draw any conclusions without the full text. Besides, increasing or decreasing levels of a neurotransmitter is a bit reductionist. For example: SSRI's and Tianeptine both elicit an antidepressant response yet one increasing levels of serotonin and the other decreases serotonin.

[monid]

Piracetam diminishes hippocampal acetylcholine levels in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7231039

...
That sounds beneficial...

Just wanted to cite that for a more "whole" view of Piracetam.
Another aspect to look into:

Effect of oxiracetam and piracetam on central cholinergic mechanisms and active-avoidance acquisition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Any thoughts on the matter?

It sounds bad. You want to increase Ach levels, not decreasing Ach levels to build up memory, and the hippocampal region is responsible for memory.

But then again this study was in 1981, not sure of the dosage or methods using in this study. Again elsewhere it has been mentioned Piracetam was involved in stimulating additional Ach receptors (therefore you use choline supplement to accommodate the increasing)

Again just use it in moderation along with choline intake. Keep an eye out on new Piracetam studies...

[nito]

Piracetam diminishes hippocampal acetylcholine levels in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7231039

...
That sounds beneficial...

Just wanted to cite that for a more "whole" view of Piracetam.
Another aspect to look into:

Effect of oxiracetam and piracetam on central cholinergic mechanisms and active-avoidance acquisition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Any thoughts on the matter?

It sounds bad. You want to increase Ach levels, not decreasing Ach levels to build up memory, and the hippocampal region is responsible for memory.

But then again this study was in 1981, not sure of the dosage or methods using in this study. Again elsewhere it has been mentioned Piracetam was involved in stimulating additional Ach receptors (therefore you use choline supplement to accommodate the increasing)

Again just use it in moderation along with choline intake. Keep an eye out on new Piracetam studies...

Is that why it gives some people brainfog? It worsens their conditions when they didn't really need any nootropics in the first place.

[JonnyDoowop]

What are ways to counter this effect? I haven't experienced any brain fog while taking a 2:1 ratio of piracetam to choline every day. Although after 3-4 hours, my mind hits road block without taking another dose. Maybe a small dose of choline at night will help.

[usuallylurks]

Just wanted to say that adverse effects were experienced with my memory when taking piracetam about 5 years ago (with CDP choline). I accidentally locked my keys in my car, preheated the oven and forgot about it, and misremembered basic information that I don't have a problem with usually. Chalk me up as one of the "brain fog" responders.

Edited by usuallylurks, 12 August 2009 - 02:32 PM.

[Legis]

Just wanted to say that adverse effects were experienced with my memory when taking piracetam about 5 years ago (with CDP choline). I accidentally locked my keys in my car, preheated the oven and forgot about it, and misremembered basic information that I don't have a problem with usually. Chalk me up as one of the "brain fog" responders.

Interesting, because I have had same kind of symptoms. Some kind of general memory and ability to crosslink information has been little downhill lately at "the to floor" of the elevator.

I find it more difficult to remember various things, but mostly this shows in remebering names. I just can't remember them. Retention has gotten worse. I have also noticed downhill in verbal fluency and ability to recall words when writing and especially when speaking. It's normal that you can pick the most suitable and intelligent words from like 3 or 4 different synonyms, but now it's hard sometimes to say words like knife, scissors etc. :D When I talk to my girlfriend, I speak like "where is the ... awww... hmmm... knife" ! It's like the words don't come so fast from my memory what is needed to create sentences, lol. Not always, but sometimes my brain feels sluggish.

FYI, my main nootropics at tjis time are piracetam (dosage varies), choline citrate+dmae powder combo, deprenyl (5mg, 5 on 5 off) hydergine, centro, alcar, ala, bacopa, rhodiola, Q10, melatonin, royal jelly (4 days attacks now and then), Huperzine A (2 weeks on 2 weeks off), and I take 25mg of DHEA sometimes. I will add pregnenolone, fenugreek, ashwagandha, cat's claw soon and also I will take a cycle with Cerebrolysin soon (maybe without anything other nootropics to distinguish it's effect better).

I did not have any problems before starting nootropics :D

[mentatpsi]

Sorry, the link about the effects of Oxi- & Pir- acetam didn't really go to the article.
Here it is:

Oxiracetam at 100 and 300 mg/kg i.p. dose levels increased acetylcholine (ACh) utilization in the rat cerebral cortex and hippocampus. ACh utilization was assessed by measuring, with a gas chromatographic method, the decrease in ACh level after inhibiting its synthesis by 15 micrograms intracerebroventricularly (i.c.v.) injection of hemicholinium (HC-3). ACh steady state levels were not affected. Piracetam (300 mg/kg i.p.) also increased ACh utilization in the hippocampus. Repeated daily administration of oxiracetam 100 mg/kg i.p. caused a 31% increase in high-affinity choline uptake (HACU) in the hippocampus. A single administration of 300 mg/kg i.p. of oxiracetam and piracetam also increased HACU rate in the hippocampus. However, the effect of piracetam was over within 3 h, while 3 h after its administration oxiracetam still caused a 40% increase in HACU rate. Oxiracetam (100 mg/kg i.p.) significantly antagonized the impairment in the acquisition of an active-avoidance conditioned response (pole climbing) associated with the inhibition of ACh synthesis by HC-3. These results indicate that oxiracetam enhances the activity of the septohippocampal cholinergic pathways, and to a lesser extent, of the cortical cholinergic network.

As bran319 wrote about the anti-depressant Tianeptine, it essentially seems to be the same concept though a different mechanism.

Regardless, i feel these type of effects would require a choline supplementation. Personally i don't see the point; you end up spending a great deal of money trying to counteract the effects of decreasing ACh levels. This is just an opinion however.

[nito]

so what does piracetam increase? It seems to decrease ACh levels. I mean is there a benefit of taking it on it's own?

[mrak1979]

It states that piracetam and oxi increase ach utilization... isn't that a good thing? It increases receptors to enhance utilization and hence cognition, that's why ach is used up quicky and choline supp is necessary. I don't think just free-roaming ach is what benefits cognition... it needs to be used. And the fact that ach is being depleted faster means more is being used for benefit. correct me if I'm wrong

Edited by mrak1979, 13 August 2009 - 01:41 AM.

[mentatpsi]

It states that piracetam and oxi increase ach utilization... isn't that a good thing? It increases receptors to enhance utilization and hence cognition, that's why ach is used up quicky and choline supp is necessary. I don't think just free-roaming ach is what benefits cognition... it needs to be used. And the fact that ach is being depleted faster means more is being used for benefit. correct me if I'm wrong

That's precisely why i posted both articles; for a more complete view. One can make their own conclusions on the matter, which i hope i have provided equal information for both directions.

I don't know how to answer your assertion in terms of free-roaming ACh (synapse-based?). I don't have enough knowledge in the area.
My thought, however, is wouldn't it be possible to look at free-roaming ACh as reserves, waiting their turn to send the neural signal. If it depletes ACh levels then it could account for the fogginess that occurs without proper supplementation. I'm lurking too much in theory though.

Edit: Grammar

Edited by mentatpsi, 13 August 2009 - 02:41 AM.

[Legis]

Found an article where reduced levels of acetylcholine in hippocampus was also noticed.

"However, piracetam alone markedly increased choline content in hippocampus (88%) and tended to decrease acetylcholine levels (19%)."

Ref: Profound effects of combining choline and piracetam on memory enhancement and cholinergic function in aged rats.

Edited by Legis, 13 August 2009 - 03:07 PM.

[nito]

whats the difference between choline and acetylcholine?

[mentatpsi]

whats the difference between choline and acetylcholine?

Choline is a nutrient found in various foods.

Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter associated with memory and learning. A neurotransmitter is essentially a chemical found within the brain that transmits information, it is the chemical part that moves through the synapse in the transmission of the electrical signal.

Choline is a precursor to Acetylcholine, meaning it gets converted into Acetylcholine. Certain forms of choline are more active than others.

Edited by mentatpsi, 14 August 2009 - 03:13 AM.

[nito]

It increases choline by 88% , then why is there a need for things like CDP- choline? I'm sorry, i'm just a bit confused. Is there a danger of having too much choline roaming around not being used if i were to only digst CDP- choline?

[Legis]

It increases choline by 88% , then why is there a need for things like CDP- choline? I'm sorry, i'm just a bit confused. Is there a danger of having too much choline roaming around not being used if i were to only digst CDP- choline?

This is quite correct.

The analogy could also be that piracetam do not raise choline levels by itself but the body does (to combat the lowered acetylcholine levels, more choline = more converted ACh). This same mechanism can be also noted when interfering with hormone levels. For. ex. estrogen inhibitors tend to raise testosterone, because more testo = more converted estrogen. Mechanism really doesn't matter that much. What matters more is the reason why asetylcholine levels are lowered? I see three possible causes;

1) Piracetam increases ACh depletion/uptake,
2) Piracetam inhibits the conversion of choline into ACh and
3) sum of both.
(4) I doubt that Piracetam could boost asetylcholineesterase)

From this perspective it could be beneficial to consume some asetylcholineesterase inhibitor like Huperzine A at the same time with Piracetam to combat lowered ACh levels. I do note that piracetam is NMDA agonist/modulator and Huperzine A is NMDA antagonist, and at that regard they would be best to consume at different times. But for keeping ACh levels normal, _maybe_ they should be consumed at the same time.

Edited by Legis, 14 August 2009 - 07:33 AM.

[nito]

Sounds a bit clearer now. I have heard mention that people take Hyperzine A with piracetam. Is there anybody on this board who does that? If so, do they go well together?

[Thorsten3]

bump

[nito]

well what i thought was a cool mind boosting powder has made me to think twice regarding taking it since reading some stuff about it lowering acetylcholine etc.

[mentatpsi]

well what i thought was a cool mind boosting powder has made me to think twice regarding taking it since reading some stuff about it lowering acetylcholine etc.

Don't take one study as a word of god . I've taken piracetam before, and i must say at first i really enjoyed it. Music and art became so much more enticing and the ability to articulate (at least in writing form) was enhanced. It began to suck after awhile and i would imagine it is related to the other compounds taken in conjunction or the perfect ratio of Piracetam to Acetylcholine never being reached. In addition, I used to go to Neurofeedback for a bit, and the doctor told me (who seemed to know a lot about these types of drugs), that Piracetam should be taken with breaks if at all. He didn't really elaborate as to why.

Anyways, unless you're somewhat loaded and willing to experiment unsuccessfully at times, Piracetam isn't the best long term investment. Given the amount of experimentation needed as well as the other supplements needed to neutralize any fogginess that may occur it's not the best nootropic. At least that's what i've experienced. It's best to give it a shot at least once though.

Edited by mentatpsi, 29 August 2009 - 11:31 PM.

[nito]

well what i thought was a cool mind boosting powder has made me to think twice regarding taking it since reading some stuff about it lowering acetylcholine etc.

Don't take one study as a word of god . I've taken piracetam before, and i must say at first i really enjoyed it. Music and art became so much more enticing and the ability to articulate (at least in writing form) was enhanced. It began to suck after awhile and i would imagine it is related to the other compounds taken in conjunction or the perfect ratio of Piracetam to Acetylcholine never being reached. In addition, I used to go to Neurofeedback for a bit, and the doctor told me (who seemed to know a lot about these types of drugs), that Piracetam should be taken with breaks if at all. He didn't really elaborate as to why.

Anyways, unless you're somewhat loaded and willing to experiment unsuccessfully at times, Piracetam isn't the best long term investment. Given the amount of experimentation needed as well as the other supplements needed to neutralize any fogginess that may occur it's not the best nootropic. At least that's what i've experienced. It's best to give it a shot at least once though.

Not sure if now is the time to expirement. I enter my final year at college in a month and if it's the case that it does produce fogginess which takes time to clear then i will forever regret it. On the other hand since i am required to write a lot and i seem to have problems with putting thoughts on paper sometimes, it seems reasonable to try it.
It all seems like a gamble, of which i am not sure where to put my money in.

[sorellasotero]

I take huperzine with my piracetam and I like it. I am also on Atkins so I get a lot of choline (eggs).

[Nuclear Biscuit]

I've been taking piracetam and centrophenoxine for 4 months now. No ill effects that I can see, quite the contrary! My general ability to concentrate has definitely improved and I find I can hold my attention on things that I don't find so interesting but have to do for a lot longer than I used to. My short term memory and ability to order my thoughts also seems to be better. I wish I'd done some kind of test before I started in order to quantify this difference! It's not my imagination, friends and family who didn't know about the nootropics have commented that they notice I'm more attentive and better able to remember facts and figures. I wish I'd known about this stuff when I was at school/an undergrad.

[nito]

I've been taking piracetam and centrophenoxine for 4 months now. No ill effects that I can see, quite the contrary! My general ability to concentrate has definitely improved and I find I can hold my attention on things that I don't find so interesting but have to do for a lot longer than I used to. My short term memory and ability to order my thoughts also seems to be better. I wish I'd done some kind of test before I started in order to quantify this difference! It's not my imagination, friends and family who didn't know about the nootropics have commented that they notice I'm more attentive and better able to remember facts and figures. I wish I'd known about this stuff when I was at school/an undergrad.

Hi


Can i ask what your dosage is?
how long have you taken this for? Is centrophenoxine a cheaper version of CDP - choline?

Cheers

[mentatpsi]

I've been taking piracetam and centrophenoxine for 4 months now. No ill effects that I can see, quite the contrary! My general ability to concentrate has definitely improved and I find I can hold my attention on things that I don't find so interesting but have to do for a lot longer than I used to. My short term memory and ability to order my thoughts also seems to be better. I wish I'd done some kind of test before I started in order to quantify this difference! It's not my imagination, friends and family who didn't know about the nootropics have commented that they notice I'm more attentive and better able to remember facts and figures. I wish I'd known about this stuff when I was at school/an undergrad.

Hi


Can i ask what your dosage is?
how long have you taken this for? Is centrophenoxine a cheaper version of CDP - choline?

Cheers

Centrophenoxine is an enhanced pharma version of DMAE. I've never tried it tho. Personally when i used DMAE in conjuction with piracetam it wasn't a good effect, at least not the preferred effect i'd want from Piracetam... but then again i had issues with DMAE.

[thebluebull]

Is it possible that Piracetam causes an increase of ACh receptors ---> ACh depletion rate increase since there are more receptors using it ---> brain tries to remedy the low levels of ACh by providing choline ---> low levels of choline in the blood since it is passed to the brain ---> causes headaches if one's diet does not contain enough choline to replace normal levels in blood and/or head fog