17 replies to this topic

[Annan]

My mother decided not to have me vaccinated, and most of the time I've not thought much about it. After reading through the imminst forum and becoming interesting in the recent swine flu pandemic I've started thinking that maybe I should get some vaccines.

Should I get vaccinated? If so which vaccines?

[castrensis]

My mother decided not to have me vaccinated, and most of the time I've not thought much about it. After reading through the imminst forum and becoming interesting in the recent swine flu pandemic I've started thinking that maybe I should get some vaccines.

Should I get vaccinated? If so which vaccines?

So long as you don't have any contraindications to vaccination, of course you should get vaccinated! Vaccines are an upgrade to your organism, rendering you invulnerable to deadly diseases.

Talk with your physician to determine an optimal vaccination schedule & to determine which vaccines are appropriate for a person of your sex, age & condition. The following upgrades are available to most adults in the US: Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, acellular pertussis) with a Td booster every ten years, MMR (measles, mumps, rubella), Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Pneumococcal (protection against 23 pneumonia causing bacteria!), Meningococcal (goodbye, meningitis!), Varicella, Herpes Zoster &, of course, yearly influenza vaccinations.

It's silly to me that some people will gladly purchase & religiously upgrade their computer's antivirus software, but are somehow averse to having their body's anti-infective software upgraded.

[rwac]

My mother decided not to have me vaccinated, and most of the time I've not thought much about it. After reading through the imminst forum and becoming interesting in the recent swine flu pandemic I've started thinking that maybe I should get some vaccines.

Should I get vaccinated? If so which vaccines?

My personal opinion now is that a vaccination may not be good for you if you have inflammatory issues.
Like chronic fatigue, brain fog etc.

I feel ill for about 2-3 weeks after a vaccination.

I'm probably not going to vaccinate any more, however, I've had most of the standard vaccinations, as well as some non-standard ones (small-pox!).

[kismet]

I feel ill for about 2-3 weeks after a vaccination.

Is feeling ill for a week or two really worse than dying from deadly but preventable infections? What actual evidence suggests that vaccination is a. not benefical for people with an underlying inflamamtory condition or b. contradicts all the other evidence, showing that vaccination is a net benefit in the population at large (i.e. scientific consensus).

Furthermore, why should we trust our body? I feel ill after strength and endurance training, yet the long-term benefits are well-established. Some people may feel ill or weak on CR, yet most evidence supports health benefits. The body lies...

Edited by kismet, 22 August 2009 - 05:16 PM.

[rwac]

Is feeling ill for a week or two really worse than dying from deadly but preventable infections? What actual evidence suggests that vaccination is a. not benefical for people with an underlying inflamamtory condition or b. contradicts all the other evidence, showing that vaccination is a net benefit in the population at large (i.e. scientific consensus).

Furthermore, why should we trust our body? I feel ill after strength and endurance training, yet the long-term benefits are well-established. Some people may feel ill or weak on CR, yet most evidence supports health benefits. The body lies...

First thing, most of those deadly infections are far more dangerous to children rather than adults. And then mostly to immune-weakened adults.

Second, excess inflammation is a trigger for diabetes and autism. A vaccine can trigger excess inflammation. Mind you, I'm not saying vaccination is directly a cause.
Just that you might want to watch out if you already have inflammation issues.

Third, the yearly flu shot is probably not terribly useful if you're not immune-compromised. For me personally its a choice between being somewhat ill for atleast a couple of weeks after the shot vs taking the chance of being more ill for a couple of weeks. The same probably holds for H1N1. From the casualty rates, it doesn't seem to be nearly as dangerous as it's made out to be.

So, you might want to evaluate specific vaccines to see if it's worth taking the risk.


Oh, yes, all that as well as being generally mildly distrustful about mainstream medicine, nutrition, etc.
Mild distrust of vaccines too would be a good way of putting it.

Edited by rwac, 22 August 2009 - 06:53 PM.

[castrensis]

First thing, most of those deadly infections are far more dangerous to children rather than adults. And then mostly to immune-weakened adults.

You fail to consider the danger you place your family, friends & community in by choosing not to receive your immune system upgrades. In health care we call it the "Circle of Protection" & all health care personnel involved in direct-patient care (at least in my facility, I don't know if compulsory vaccination is a facility policy or dictated by the state) receive vaccination against practically every disease we are capable of inoculating against. There are several important reasons to maintain the "Circle of Protection"; the most important & worrisome is an indolent infection in an immunocompetent individual that doesn't prevent the infected to isolate themselves & results in that person spreading the infection to people they contact. I'm sure you understand the implications.

Second, excess inflammation is a trigger for diabetes and autism. A vaccine can trigger excess inflammation. Mind you, I'm not saying vaccination is directly a cause.

To the best of my knowledge there is often localized inflammation but not systemic inflammation. Also, I've never seen any reputable evidence connecting vaccination with diabetes &/or autism. Providing your sources may help clarify this issue.

Third, the yearly flu shot is probably not terribly useful if you're not immune-compromised. For me personally its a choice between being somewhat ill for atleast a couple of weeks after the shot vs taking the chance of being more ill for a couple of weeks.

Refer to the preceding re: "Circle of Protection" & again consider the danger of becoming a vector.

The same probably holds for H1N1. From the casualty rates, it doesn't seem to be nearly as dangerous as it's made out to be.

I don't believe the WHO or any reputable source of information has stated that this strain of H1N1 in its current form is overly dangerous, however the real danger lies in disseminated infection in the populace thereby increasing the chances of a mutation resulting in a more virulent strain of H1N1 & increasing the likelihood that the virus will become resistant to antivirals to which it is currently susceptible. Plan is to observe & see how the situation develops - history indicates that if this follows a similar pattern to previous influenza pandemics with high casualty rates then we have something to worry about.

Should we see a mutation & people start dropping like flies you'll be begging for a vaccine if you don't have a subterranean bunker.

[kismet]

First thing, most of those deadly infections are far more dangerous to children rather than adults. And then mostly to immune-weakened adults.

True for some, not for others. I don't know how the overall picture looks, but it is besides the point. Every vaccine should be done on a case-by-case basis (most vaccination regimens are evidence based to begin with). Take as an example polio and tick borne encephalitis. There's no cure and the prognosis is sometimes pretty poor. Wikipedia, citing the CDC, states: "Overall, 5–10% of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The mortality rate varies by age: 2–5% of children and up to 15–30% of adults die"
If you get encephalitis, there's a high chance of long term neurological damage and apparently adults are again worse off.

Second, excess inflammation is a trigger for diabetes and autism. A vaccine can trigger excess inflammation. Mind you, I'm not saying vaccination is directly a cause.

While mechanistically plausible, such hypotheses are vastly inferior to actual interventional/clinical evidence, which shows the proven track record of some vaccines saving countless lives.

[rwac]

True for some, not for others. I don't know how the overall picture looks, but it is besides the point. Every vaccine should be done on a case-by-case basis (most vaccination regimens are evidence based to begin with). Take as an example polio and tick borne encephalitis. There's no cure and the prognosis is sometimes pretty poor. Wikipedia, citing the CDC, states: "Overall, 5–10% of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The mortality rate varies by age: 2–5% of children and up to 15–30% of adults die"
If you get encephalitis, there's a high chance of long term neurological damage and apparently adults are again worse off.

I imagine most unvaccinated adults are not even susceptible to polio. So those that do get it probably have weakened immune systems to begin with. The appropriate statistic would be along the lines of prevalence of polio in unvaccinated children, and prevalence in unvaccinated adults.

While mechanistically plausible, such hypotheses are vastly inferior to actual interventional/clinical evidence, which shows the proven track record of some vaccines saving countless lives.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence of an immune response caused by vaccination triggering appearance of autism symptoms.

The following case actually agrees with this hypothesis.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23519029/
The inflammatory response to a vaccination triggered an underlying problem.

I would imagine an infection would trigger the exact same symptoms...

[rwac]

You fail to consider the danger you place your family, friends & community in by choosing not to receive your immune system upgrades. In health care we call it the "Circle of Protection" & all health care personnel involved in direct-patient care (at least in my facility, I don't know if compulsory vaccination is a facility policy or dictated by the state) receive vaccination against practically every disease we are capable of inoculating against. There are several important reasons to maintain the "Circle of Protection"; the most important & worrisome is an indolent infection in an immunocompetent individual that doesn't prevent the infected to isolate themselves & results in that person spreading the infection to people they contact. I'm sure you understand the implications.

I don't have a good response for this, which is why I'm not totally anti-vaccination.

To the best of my knowledge there is often localized inflammation but not systemic inflammation. Also, I've never seen any reputable evidence connecting vaccination with diabetes &/or autism. Providing your sources may help clarify this issue.

You are wrong about the inflammation. I can personally vouch for the existence of systemic inflammation after a vaccination. A fever after vaccination is a common side effect. Likely there isn't any evidence.

However, systemic inflammation is hardly benign and possibly triggers other issues.

I don't believe the WHO or any reputable source of information has stated that this strain of H1N1 in its current form is overly dangerous, however the real danger lies in disseminated infection in the populace thereby increasing the chances of a mutation resulting in a more virulent strain of H1N1 & increasing the likelihood that the virus will become resistant to antivirals to which it is currently susceptible. Plan is to observe & see how the situation develops - history indicates that if this follows a similar pattern to previous influenza pandemics with high casualty rates then we have something to worry about.

Should we see a mutation & people start dropping like flies you'll be begging for a vaccine if you don't have a subterranean bunker.

I would imagine that it's easier to deal with the flu using vit D3 rather than a vaccination.

[Dmitri]

True for some, not for others. I don't know how the overall picture looks, but it is besides the point. Every vaccine should be done on a case-by-case basis (most vaccination regimens are evidence based to begin with). Take as an example polio and tick borne encephalitis. There's no cure and the prognosis is sometimes pretty poor. Wikipedia, citing the CDC, states: "Overall, 5–10% of patients with paralytic polio die due to the paralysis of muscles used for breathing. The mortality rate varies by age: 2–5% of children and up to 15–30% of adults die"
If you get encephalitis, there's a high chance of long term neurological damage and apparently adults are again worse off.

I imagine most unvaccinated adults are not even susceptible to polio. So those that do get it probably have weakened immune systems to begin with. The appropriate statistic would be along the lines of prevalence of polio in unvaccinated children, and prevalence in unvaccinated adults.

While mechanistically plausible, such hypotheses are vastly inferior to actual interventional/clinical evidence, which shows the proven track record of some vaccines saving countless lives.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence of an immune response caused by vaccination triggering appearance of autism symptoms.

The following case actually agrees with this hypothesis.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23519029/
The inflammatory response to a vaccination triggered an underlying problem.

I would imagine an infection would trigger the exact same symptoms...

Anecdotal does not make it a fact. Also, the definition of autism has changed and it now includes milder forms of the disorder this is one of the theorized reasons as to why more children are being diagnosed with it now and because we also have better diagnostic tools and methods, which were lacking in the past.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ions/index.html
A vocal segment of autism parents has contended that childhood vaccinations recommended by the government cause the disorder. Health agencies and the scientific community have disputed that notion. In defending its conclusion that no link exists, the Institute of Medicine cited five large studies that have failed to prove any connection between autism and thimerosal and 14 large studies finding no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

"As the scientific community has been saying for a long time, there is no good, credible, reproducible research that supports the hypothesis that MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine causes autism," said Dr. Max Wiznitzer, an autism expert at Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland, Ohio.

[Mortuorum]

http://www.gnhealth.com/vaccines.html

http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock34.html

http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock.html


I would suggest reading through the information at these sites as an adjunct to your other perusals and inquiries into the controversy of vaccinations. Enjoy!

[rwac]

Anecdotal does not make it a fact. Also, the definition of autism has changed and it now includes milder forms of the disorder this is one of the theorized reasons as to why more children are being diagnosed with it now and because we also have better diagnostic tools and methods, which were lacking in the past.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ions/index.html
A vocal segment of autism parents has contended that childhood vaccinations recommended by the government cause the disorder. Health agencies and the scientific community have disputed that notion. In defending its conclusion that no link exists, the Institute of Medicine cited five large studies that have failed to prove any connection between autism and thimerosal and 14 large studies finding no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

"As the scientific community has been saying for a long time, there is no good, credible, reproducible research that supports the hypothesis that MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine causes autism," said Dr. Max Wiznitzer, an autism expert at Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland, Ohio.

I'm not really talking about MMR or thimerosal. The study we really need, which we don't have, is the one which compares vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

[Dmitri]

Anecdotal does not make it a fact. Also, the definition of autism has changed and it now includes milder forms of the disorder this is one of the theorized reasons as to why more children are being diagnosed with it now and because we also have better diagnostic tools and methods, which were lacking in the past.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ions/index.html
A vocal segment of autism parents has contended that childhood vaccinations recommended by the government cause the disorder. Health agencies and the scientific community have disputed that notion. In defending its conclusion that no link exists, the Institute of Medicine cited five large studies that have failed to prove any connection between autism and thimerosal and 14 large studies finding no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

"As the scientific community has been saying for a long time, there is no good, credible, reproducible research that supports the hypothesis that MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine causes autism," said Dr. Max Wiznitzer, an autism expert at Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland, Ohio.

I'm not really talking about MMR or thimerosal. The study we really need, which we don't have, is the one which compares vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

I see, I did find an article that supports your theory in regards to MS. But the article stresses more research since back in 2002 no connection had been found with MS and the immune system response to vaccines. They also mention a study on children and hepatitis B vaccines that were "associated with a 50% increased risk for CNS inflammatory demyelination of 50 percent". Some people believe there's a connection between that inflammation of the CNS and autism.

You can read more here: http://www.ageofauti...-causes-ms.html

If this is in fact true then why doesn't it affect everyone? Could there be a genetic component as well? I received a tetanus shot a few weeks ago (the one you get every 10 years) and I didn't seem to get an immune response. Though my white blood cell count is almost borderline due to CR; I'm not sure if that helps?

[rwac]

If this is in fact true then why doesn't it affect everyone? Could there be a genetic component as well? I received a tetanus shot a few weeks ago (the one you get every 10 years) and I didn't seem to get an immune response. Though my white blood cell count is almost borderline due to CR; I'm not sure if that helps?

I'm more liable to suspect dietary factors than genetic, but genetic may have a role too.

Here's a telephone survey comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Is this statistically significant ? I don't know. I hope someone will tell us.

"We surveyed over 9,000 boys in California and Oregon and found that vaccinated boys had a 155% greater chance of having a neurological disorder like ADHD or autism than unvaccinated boys." - Generation Rescue

http://www.generatio...org/survey.html

Link to survey data: http://www.generatio.../pdf/survey.pdf

Edited by rwac, 16 September 2009 - 02:21 AM.

[alexd]

FYI. I recently had that I suspect was the swine flu. Did not get tested so it could be the more common variety. It lasted about 13 days with no treatment beyond the typical aspirin etc. This was a rather tenacious and uncomfortable. If I could have prevented it I probably would choose to do. I am 56 years old and there is the possibility that I might have some immunities from likely having been exposed to a swine flu variant as a child. Well it sure glided past my immune system.I usually do not get ill but this sucker got me despite high dose resveratrol and many other things.

Take it as you like.

[Dmitri]

FYI. I recently had that I suspect was the swine flu. Did not get tested so it could be the more common variety. It lasted about 13 days with no treatment beyond the typical aspirin etc. This was a rather tenacious and uncomfortable. If I could have prevented it I probably would choose to do. I am 56 years old and there is the possibility that I might have some immunities from likely having been exposed to a swine flu variant as a child. Well it sure glided past my immune system.I usually do not get ill but this sucker got me despite high dose resveratrol and many other things.

Take it as you like.

Isn't dangerous to use aspirin when you have the cold and flu? Reye's Syndrome comes to mind.

[kurdishfella]

When they make drugs the procedure is hell of a lot less time and extensive required than vaccines, so think about how many drugs there are then how many havent been tested properly for their safety, so if you take drugs why not take vaccine too? So there are safe (safer?) vaccines and unsafe ones you just have to research i guess. same with drugs. etc or is this you researching

Edited by kurdishfella, 17 March 2021 - 04:42 PM.

[kurdishfella]

No way all the vaccines have made me feel worse my health decline faster etc

https://old.reddit.c...u_supposed_get/

I would avoid them at all cost and keep your health up the natural way.