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Who deserves to live forever?


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#1 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 01:12 AM


Who really deserves to live forever? I suppose the most common answer will be that we all deserve it. But why? This strikes me as mawkish sentimentality. It seems pretty obvious, unless you believe the Singularity will suddenly come upon us, and everybody at once will be swept up into a sort of techno-nerdy version of the Christian rapture -- an indulgence in mere fantasy in my opinion, choices are going to have to be made. If the criteria were to be based on contributions to humanity as a whole -- artistic, scientific, etc. -- how many of us would make the cut. I guess a few at best. Or more likely, none. Doubtless, some will argue that it is all about potential. But if in 80 years we haven't achieved even the tiniest fraction of what Shakespeare, Goethe, Gauss, Newton, or Einstein achieved in their lifetimes, is another 800 years going to make a big difference? So who's going to live forever and who's going to die? Ideally, how should this determination be made? And realistically, how is it actually likely to happen?

#2 Cyberbrain

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 01:43 AM

Who really deserves to live forever? I suppose the most common answer will be that we all deserve it. But why?

Why do you say "deserves"? You act as if the technology to extend life will be in sort supply and thus be distributed in a controlled state. If history has taught us anything it's that the cost of product decreases over time and increases in supply. When and if the technology to extend life becomes a reality, I highly doubt we will have to ration it.

If the criteria were to be based on contributions to humanity as a whole -- artistic, scientific, etc. -- how many of us would make the cut. I guess a few at best. Or more likely, none. Doubtless, some will argue that it is all about potential.

By the time LE technologies come and surely by the time the singularity comes, we will have the ability to augment our selves. Eventually over time we'd all reach the same potential.

But if in 80 years we haven't achieved even the tiniest fraction of what Shakespeare, Goethe, Gauss, Newton, or Einstein achieved in their lifetimes, is another 800 years going to make a big difference?

We have far surpassed their achievements in the last few decades. The only reason we glorify these scholars is because they were simply the first one's to bring revolutionary ideas into society that was extremely rare in thinkers. While now a days, with hundreds of millions of scientists, engineers, etc, all making great advances, it's hard to glorify them in the same way.

So who's going to live forever and who's going to die? Ideally, how should this determination be made? And realistically, how is it actually likely to happen?

It will happen similarly to most medical advancements. At first it will be experimental and expansive then as the technology is perfected and demand increases, the price will decrease and supply will increase. Now this is not living forever. But rather fixing the faults of biology and picking off where evolution left. Over the course of hundreds of years we will continue to radically better ourselves in ways we can not imagine. The biotech revolution that will end aging is only the beginning. :-D

#3 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 03:51 AM

Who really deserves to live forever? I suppose the most common answer will be that we all deserve it. But why?

Why do you say "deserves"? You act as if the technology to extend life will be in sort supply and thus be distributed in a controlled state.

Absolutely. It will be in short supply. Even if the actual cost of the treatment is low, I don't see the entire population of the Earth -- all 6 billion+ now and growing -- being given an inoculation that will enable them to live for 800 years. That strikes me as completely impractical. I anticipate that it will be available, at least in the beginning, only to the wealthy and to those individuals that are close to political power.

If history has taught us anything it's that the cost of product decreases over time and increases in supply. When and if the technology to extend life becomes a reality, I highly doubt we will have to ration it.

There you seem to tacitly admit that the cost will be prohibitive -- at least in the beginning. Well, we may die, but at least we can take comfort in the thought that Paris Hilton will live on forever.

But if in 80 years we haven't achieved even the tiniest fraction of what Shakespeare, Goethe, Gauss, Newton, or Einstein achieved in their lifetimes, is another 800 years going to make a big difference?

We have far surpassed their achievements in the last few decades. The only reason we glorify these scholars is because they were simply the first one's to bring revolutionary ideas into society that was extremely rare in thinkers. While now a days, with hundreds of millions of scientists, engineers, etc, all making great advances, it's hard to glorify them in the same way.

I doubt that much recent art has come even remotely close to the great works of Shakespeare or Goethe. As far as science and mathematics are concerned, the number of people today who are capable of making the sort of intellectual leaps that were made by Gauss, Newton or Einstein, could probably be counted on two hands and two feet. Relatively speaking, the vast majority of scientists and engineers are basically craftsmen -- little more than bricklayers who, putting away the trowel, have memorized by rote a few techniques for computing integrals.

Edited by Connor MacLeod, 25 August 2009 - 03:53 AM.


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#4 PWAIN

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 03:54 AM

Turn the question around, Who has the right to make such a decision??


Who really deserves to live forever?



#5 Luna

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 04:14 AM

People just argue and argue and researchers are unable to research because this exact kind of politics and then they die because the politics didn't make a decision and research was not let to go on :X

#6 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 04:25 AM

Turn the question around, Who has the right to make such a decision??


Who really deserves to live forever?



Decisions will inevitably be made, by governments or agencies thereof, regardless of whether you think they have the right to make those decisions or not. It is unpleasant, but resources have always been limited, and I don't see that changing any time soon. Do you really think impoverished tribes in sub-Saharan Africa will have as much access to LE technology as Americans or Europeans? Similarly do you think an impoverished, but brilliant graduate student will have priority over a hard-drinking, philandering U.S. senator, when it comes time for immortality pills to be handed out? Seems fairly unlikely to me.

#7 JLL

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 09:05 AM

... which is exactly why we need to get rid of systems in which there are people who deem themselves capable of making choices regarding life and death for other people.

#8 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:26 AM

Considering that I have already been written off as undeserving of healthcare in another thread, I really do not know why I am bothering, but...

Life, liberty and the pursuit (not always the achievement) of happiness.

Life is a right, with life comes the right to all things needed to maintain that life. That includes whatever healthcare is needed regardless of financial wealth. Simple existence is all that should be required to qualify someone for LE.

Liberty is also a right. That also means that everyone should be given LE, because denial of LE to anyone is denying their liberty to live as long as they wish.

And LE allows the pursuit of happiness, even if happiness is fleeting and never stays, LE will allow everyone to pursue it again and again. The longer you live, the greater the number of happy moments you can have.

Anything else is simply justifying privilege for the few.

#9 thughes

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 04:33 PM

Absolutely. It will be in short supply. Even if the actual cost of the treatment is low, I don't see the entire population of the Earth -- all 6 billion+ now and growing -- being given an inoculation that will enable them to live for 800 years. That strikes me as completely impractical.


Keep in mind this is your opinion, not a fact. You are treating it like a fact.

Truth is, the future is extremely hard to predict. The effect of any new technology is extremely hard to predict. Lots of people make the mistake of trying to predict the future by extrapolating the past, which you seem to be doing here, but technology can change everything far more rapidly than you realize.

Eg. there was concern over mass starvation when we started vaccinating against diseases like Smallpox, because this would increase the world's population by significantly reducing childhood mortality. Then, along comes the green revolution. So much for all that pessimism. How many people would be dead or disabled if we'd listened?

Don't let fear of the future rule you.

I anticipate that it will be available, at least in the beginning, only to the wealthy and to those individuals that are close to political power.


Since we don't know what the resolution will be, we can't cost it. It could be prohibitively expensive. You could just as easily be completely wrong, and it could be within the reach of 1/6 of the world's population immediately (ie. the middle class), and improve rapidly from there.

Costs could easily be kept down because of the vast amounts of people that simply don't want to live forever (many of the religious, for example).

Decisions will inevitably be made, by governments or agencies thereof, regardless of whether you think they have the right to make those decisions or not. It is unpleasant, but resources have always been limited, and I don't see that changing any time soon


Part 1 is true: I fear pessimists in charge of government making very stupid decision due to the kind of fear shown here. But, I can always move to a better country.

Part 2: Resources are far less limited than they were 2000 years ago. Plus, you have no idea what resources will be needed. Given extremely great demand, humans can be quite innovative. We complain about the inability to feed the world meat if they all continue to get richer and want more of it... what do you want to bet much cheaper and significantly resource cheaper vat-meat will be available eventually? There's no physical law preventing it, it *will* be done if we want it to be done, and the more we all want meat, the more we will be willing to commit to make it happen if meat starts becoming prohibitively expensive. Funny how that works out. Same idea as life extension, really.

The key thing is, we will not know if we can do it until we try. We will not know the resources needed until the problem is solved. And, the problem *will* be solved, as there is no physical constraint preventing the solution. Its a matter of when, and by whom. We will have to face these problems, either now or in future generations. Its like the atomic bomb, for good or bad once we figure it out its here to stay. Best to work on making sure its a good solution.

- Tracy

#10 Mind

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 05:15 PM

To quote Clint Eastwood's character from Unforgiven "Deserves got nothin' to do with it".

There are over 6 billion people on this planet and over 6 billion different ideas as to who "deserves" life extension (LE) treatments. It is easy to say "the rich will get it first", "the powerful will get it first", "politicians will get it first". In actuality the development of LE treatments will likely have to be collaborative and quite open. Comprehensive LE it is too complicated for one individual or one company to develop alone. With the development of more open-source software and technology, it is likely that the dissemination of LE will be more widespread than we can currently imagine. The first people to get the treatments will be those willing to take a risk and go through clinical trials. Then, each treatment that provides a benefit (slows aging) will enter the marketplace, or be doled out by politicians (those in power). I prefer the marketplace.

#11 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:24 AM

...do you think an impoverished, but brilliant graduate student will have priority over a hard-drinking, philandering U.S. senator, when it comes time for immortality pills to be handed out?


Impoverished but brilliant graduate student just moved ahead in the line. Rest in peace Senator Kennedy.

#12 TigerMask

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:28 AM

Someone who wants to.

Or someone who doesn't want to.

Who are we to decide who lives forever? That adds a whole new element to life extension, and its bothersome.

Edited by hepburn, 26 August 2009 - 08:34 AM.


#13 captainbeefheart

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:01 AM

I think a right to life is a pretty basic right, if technology exists and we begin to talk about who does and doesn't deserve this it's getting a bit dodgy. Everyone does, IMO.

#14 forever freedom

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 01:25 PM

What i do know is that whoever is serious about living forever needs to work hard to get his financial situation handled and well so he doesn't potentially miss the boat. What would be more sad than dying just a few years before the technology that could save him becomes affordable to him?

#15 TigerMask

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:13 PM

I think a right to life is a pretty basic right, if technology exists and we begin to talk about who does and doesn't deserve this it's getting a bit dodgy. Everyone does, IMO.


I think if we're going to talk about EVERYONE living forever, we're going to need to talk about overpopulation.

#16 russianBEAR

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:57 PM

History has also taught us that all major technologies are usually tested in the military/government/secret labs first, and are controlled by the elitists.

So to answer the question - the elite will get it, you won't.

Although technically noone deserves anything at all - it's all about what you can get for yourself.

However, keep in mind that our society is built upon the pretense and illusion of status, so yeah...you'll miss the cut, but maybe Obama will get another 800 in office. I know Dick Cheney is probably already immortal right now.

Edited by russianBEAR, 26 August 2009 - 10:59 PM.


#17 kismet

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:32 PM

Who really deserves to live forever?

Who deserves death? No one, ergo... no ifs and buts!

I think if we're going to talk about EVERYONE living forever, we're going to need to talk about overpopulation.

No - what you mean is reproduction and population control, which has got nothing to do with living forever, other than the fact the that latter may lead to the former.

History has also taught us that all major technologies are usually tested in the military/government/secret labs first, and are controlled by the elitists.

So to answer the question - the elite will get it, you won't.

Not true for biomedical advances. Assuming that those will make life extension possible (via escape velocity), I must conclude that you are probably wrong.

Edited by kismet, 26 August 2009 - 11:35 PM.


#18 fatboy

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:14 AM

Me. But I'm pretty sure I don't want to.

#19 russianBEAR

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:26 AM

Who really deserves to live forever?

Who deserves death? No one, ergo... no ifs and buts!

I think if we're going to talk about EVERYONE living forever, we're going to need to talk about overpopulation.

No - what you mean is reproduction and population control, which has got nothing to do with living forever, other than the fact the that latter may lead to the former.

History has also taught us that all major technologies are usually tested in the military/government/secret labs first, and are controlled by the elitists.

So to answer the question - the elite will get it, you won't.

Not true for biomedical advances. Assuming that those will make life extension possible (via escape velocity), I must conclude that you are probably wrong.


We're not talking about some vaccine here, or a new pill that does this or that, or even a diagnosis/healing technique, we're talking about something which will have a huge effect on the whole world. I do hope that I am wrong, but knowing human nature something tells me there's a chance it plays out like that.

#20 PWAIN

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 01:01 AM

Those people that supposedly live forever will most likely be doing so on the basis of some form of anti ageing. This does not mean that they cannot be killed by an angry mob with nothing to lose. Control of the masses comes from a form of co-operation not enforcement. Enforcement fails whenever there is nothing to lose.

Some people are really going to have problems adjusting if the future really find unlimited resources.

#21 russianBEAR

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:10 AM


Edited by russianBEAR, 27 August 2009 - 04:12 AM.


#22 castrensis

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:59 AM

Who really deserves to live forever? I suppose the most common answer will be that we all deserve it. But why? This strikes me as mawkish sentimentality. It seems pretty obvious, unless you believe the Singularity will suddenly come upon us, and everybody at once will be swept up into a sort of techno-nerdy version of the Christian rapture -- an indulgence in mere fantasy in my opinion, choices are going to have to be made. If the criteria were to be based on contributions to humanity as a whole -- artistic, scientific, etc. -- how many of us would make the cut. I guess a few at best. Or more likely, none. Doubtless, some will argue that it is all about potential. But if in 80 years we haven't achieved even the tiniest fraction of what Shakespeare, Goethe, Gauss, Newton, or Einstein achieved in their lifetimes, is another 800 years going to make a big difference? So who's going to live forever and who's going to die? Ideally, how should this determination be made? And realistically, how is it actually likely to happen?


I think the problem here is that you're talking about Engineered Negligible Senescence as a single technology as if we were likely to develop an inoculation that bestows immortality. Manufacture & dissemination of a single technology may be subject to (initially) limited supply & perhaps even rationing. However, SENS is composed of multiple regenerative biotechnologies in development engineered to eliminate the accumulated damage caused by aging. It's unlikely they'll all come to fruition at the same time, thereby naturally rationing life extension biotechnologies into the marketplace.

Also of consideration is that human organisms still in their developmental stages & humans in their prime wouldn't require the technology because they haven't accumulated enough damage - notable exceptions perhaps would be juvenile diabetics who accumulate many more AGEs than an average person their age - so it whittles the pool of humans requiring the treatment down quite a bit. For the sake of example, let's arbitrarily assign the age of 40 when accumulated damage starts to cause dysfunction in the human organism. The US Census indicates that 55.1% of our population is under the age of 40, meaning that over half of the US population - with some exceptions, as above - would derive no significant benefit from the application of a specific technology designed to eliminate one form of accumulated damage as a result of aging. NIA seems to consider age 65+ the population they're focused on, so again we'll arbitrarily assign the age of 65+ (12.5% or ~ 37million) the age at which urgent intervention is essential for the continued viability of the organism. The population in this group will be further limited by humans who are at a stage where a reversal of that specific accumulated damage will confer benefit & humans who are in advanced disease states & beyond help, so to speak.

So as with most biotechnologies once it emerges in the marketplace there will be specific population that the biotechnology will benefit & a vast chasm between those who will require immediate treatment to maintain viability compared to those whose can wait. We should also take into consideration the portion of population enrolling in clinical trials of the biotechnology would be those who urgently require intervention, as when cancer patients who have exhausted treatment options or for whom no available treatment can offer benefit enroll in clinical trials for novel agents. Given these considerations I don't think it is probable that emerging biotechnologies to eliminate the accumulated damage caused by aging will be subject to rationing or that demand could outstrip our supply of the newly emerged biotechnology.

Edited by castrensis, 27 August 2009 - 05:08 AM.


#23 Teixeira

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 10:57 AM

Good question! And why? Because "there is no such thing as a free lunch"!
If immortality is so important, you must have to do something absolutly fantastic to deserve it.
So far I only know one person who did it.

#24 j0lt_c0la

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:21 AM

I imagine that people in the Dark Ages might have thought to themselves, "Even if they made a cure for plague, only the king and his court would ever have access to it!" Now you can get antibiotics for free at Giant Eagle.

Edited by j0lt_c0la, 06 December 2009 - 11:21 AM.


#25 forever freedom

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 04:39 PM

Good question! And why? Because "there is no such thing as a free lunch"!
If immortality is so important, you must have to do something absolutly fantastic to deserve it.
So far I only know one person who did it.



Ok i'm tired of reading your cryptic posts. Who did what? Would you care to tell us?

Edited by forever freedom, 06 December 2009 - 04:40 PM.


#26 Teixeira

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 04:43 PM

I imagine that people in the Dark Ages might have thought to themselves, "Even if they made a cure for plague, only the king and his court would ever have access to it!" Now you can get antibiotics for free at Giant Eagle.

You can also argue that nobel prize and others should be given to everyone who want them, but then it´s value will be zero. You have to deserve the precious things, they just cannot be given "for free" because that is also incompatible with the dignity of these things.
Of course one can always say that the laws of nature are unfair but I don´t think so.
It can happen that there are good reasons for things to be as they are, it just happens that somebody might not know those reasons (and that doesn´t prove the reasons are not good).

#27 Teixeira

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 05:04 PM

Good question! And why? Because "there is no such thing as a free lunch"!
If immortality is so important, you must have to do something absolutly fantastic to deserve it.
So far I only know one person who did it.



Ok i'm tired of reading your cryptic posts. Who did what? Would you care to tell us?

You are right, I should have told it in the first place.
Jesus did that.

#28 forever freedom

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 05:49 PM

Good question! And why? Because "there is no such thing as a free lunch"!
If immortality is so important, you must have to do something absolutly fantastic to deserve it.
So far I only know one person who did it.



Ok i'm tired of reading your cryptic posts. Who did what? Would you care to tell us?

You are right, I should have told it in the first place.
Jesus did that.



Ah how boring.

I thought you could say that, but had hopes you had come up with a crackpot interesting theory (because as far as i recall you hadn't mentioned christian beliefs in previous posts). So much for some Sunday amusement.

#29 Teixeira

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 07:27 PM

Good question! And why? Because "there is no such thing as a free lunch"!
If immortality is so important, you must have to do something absolutly fantastic to deserve it.
So far I only know one person who did it.



Ok i'm tired of reading your cryptic posts. Who did what? Would you care to tell us?

You are right, I should have told it in the first place.
Jesus did that.



Ah how boring.

I thought you could say that, but had hopes you had come up with a crackpot interesting theory (because as far as i recall you hadn't mentioned christian beliefs in previous posts). So much for some Sunday amusement.

That´s what you think.
Jesus seems a boring hipothesis only if you don´t consider the "interesting theory" where I work for some time.

Let´s start with the hipothesis: what if Jesus was a time traveller from the future?
Before we go ahead, we have a mathematical detail that we need to consider: Jesus is the "class of equivalence" of all the events in the space-time where somebody decides "to die for the others".
When such a experience occurs, the values of the parameters involved are absolutly the same. And because the values of psychological energy became of "biblical proportions", the conscience is forced to make a time travel to the past (it cannot stay in the "present") to an event that belong to the same class of equivalence: Jesus!
(Sorry if I desapointed you with the other post).

#30 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 07:31 PM

Deserves? Well if you could grant it to one person, or if the costs involved for the initial treament of a humas were so high no one else could really afford it--then it would be a hard decicion. I'd go with someone who has been dedicated to the field of AGI so that the kind of exponential intelligence we refer to as Singularity-could occur sooner and help get those prices down as everyone deserves it ;-)




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