50 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

More information about the bill and needed help.

Information From Stephen Van Sickle, Alcor Board Member, via ImmInst Chat Room:


Tanya Jones
Alcor, Chief Operating Officer
http://www.alcor.org...taff.html#tanya

From Tanya (From Yesterday Mar 10):

Tomorrow [Mar 11 Thursday] is the voice vote and Floor debate among the legislators.

There will be no input allowed from the public; and the bill may still be held without vote, and scheduled for a later debate. Whenever it occurs, at the end of the debate, a voice vote will be taken to indicate support -- or lack thereof -- for the bill. At that time, the bill may receive a recommendation to pass with a simple majority of attending members, but this is still not the final Act in the House. A formal vote and Third Reading are still required.

Given the speed with which Representative Stump is trying to push this bill through the legislature, we're pretty sure HB 2637 is going to be on Monday's agenda, since the legislators usually spend Fridays in their districts. For the formal vote, all representatives have to register their "yea" or "nay" in the computer, and Stump must have a majority of the whole to pass the bill. This means 31 votes. Without 31 total votes for the bill, it will end there. But Stump will have the entire weekend to continue his attempts to gain votes, and that is why we must keep the pressure on the issues.

[Bruce Klein]

A rough idea of positions on HB 2637, thus far:
[will be updated]

List Moved Here:
http://www.imminst.o...259

[ocsrazor]

The following is the commnication I had with AZ Rep Ted Downing last night and this morning in the lead up to the vote on HB 2637. It begins with his response to my general mail I sent to all the reps, which is above.


Dear Peter Passaro,

Thank you for your comments. The issue is not whether or not there is a
complaint.  To me, it is an issue of scientific credibility.  Help me on
this, please. Can you name a faculty researcher from either the University
of Arizona or Arizona State University who is working with you at Alcor Life
Extension Foundation? And can you name an article published in Science or
Nature, the two major peer reviewed scientific journals supporting your
theory of life extension?  

Ted Downing
State Representive
Tucson

>>>>>

Dear Mr. Downing,

Speaking as neuroscientist, I believe there is no better than a fifty
percent
chance that patients suspended will be able to be revived after using the
most
advanced cryonics methods currently available. That said, I choose to take
that chance based on the fact that to my mind this funeral technique is no
less dignified than burial or cremation and offers a possibility of revival.

Alcor makes every effort to use the latest available technologies, and these
are improving constantly. Cryobiology is a very small field worldwide and
most
of the cutting edge research is carried out in private laboratories.  I am
not
familiar with the researchers at Arizona universities, but here at Georgia
Tech there is cutting edge research on cryobiology for storing human organs
for transplant.  This research is directly increasing the possibilities of
success for cryonics and provides a great boon to mankind in increasing the
number of organs available for lifesaving operations.  Please see the end of
this message for a reputable scientific publication list on the viability of
current cryonic techniques for storage of biological tissue.

I am extensively familiar with this literature and as an expert in human
aging, physiology, and neurology I would be willing to guide you through it
and give you my most honest assessment of the technology and the potential
for
cryonic suspension and revival of humans. I was previously an analyst (and
Vice President) for a venture capital company where it was my job to assess
the viability and commercial potential of emerging medical technologies, so
this is not just me shooting from the hip.

All of the above was not the point of my message though.  What I wanted to
make clear was that it is my right as an individual to choose the method of
my
own funerary rites, whether it be cremation, burial, or cryonic storage.
The
passage of HB 2637 would deny me the right to make that choice by preventing
the effective operation of what I believe to be the only competent provider
of
this service in the world.  There is no evidence that Alcor has ever
provided
anything but the best of care to any of their clients, so I fail to see the
interest of the state in preventing individuals from being able to use their
services by way of over-regulation.

In addition, passage of this bill would make Arizona unattractive to
organizations and individuals peforming cutting edge biomedical research
because of the likelihood that they would experience unnecessary bureacratic
red tape in carrying out research activities.

If you believe cryonics needs to be further regulated in your state, I would
respectfully ask that you create meaningful legislation instead of HB 2637,
which serves no one's interests and detrimentally affects the human rights
of
many.

Sincerely,
Peter A Passaro

ppassaro@neuro.gatech.edu
http://www.neuro.gatech.edu <http://www.neuro.gatech.edu>

Laboratory for Neuroengineering
Georgia Institue of Technology
Atlanta, Ga 30332


Publications List:

Arnaud FG, Khirabadi B, Fahy GM.
Physiological evaluation of a rabbit kidney perfused with VS41A.
Cryobiology. 2003 Jun;46(3):289-94.
PMID: 12818220 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Kheirabadi BS, Fahy GM.
Permanent life support by kidneys perfused with a vitrifiable (7.5 molar)
cryoprotectant solution.
Transplantation. 2000 Jul 15;70(1):51-7.
PMID: 10919575 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Wowk B, Leitl E, Rasch CM, Mesbah-Karimi N, Harris SB, Fahy GM.
Vitrification enhancement by synthetic ice blocking agents.
Cryobiology. 2000 May;40(3):228-36.
PMID: 10860622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fahy GM, Ali SE.
Cryopreservation of the mammalian kidney. II. Demonstration of immediate ex
vivo function after introduction and removal of 7.5 M cryoprotectant.
Cryobiology. 1997 Sep;35(2):114-31.
PMID: 9299103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fahy GM, Saur J, Williams RJ.
Physical problems with the vitrification of large biological systems.
Cryobiology. 1990 Oct;27(5):492-510.
PMID: 2249453 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Ruggera PS, Fahy GM.
Rapid and uniform electromagnetic heating of aqueous cryoprotectant
solutions
from cryogenic temperatures.
Cryobiology. 1990 Oct;27(5):465-78.
PMID: 2249450 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fahy GM, Levy DI, Ali SE.
Some emerging principles underlying the physical properties, biological
actions, and utility of vitrification solutions.
Cryobiology. 1987 Jun;24(3):196-213.
PMID: 3595164 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fahy GM.
Vitrification: a new approach to organ cryopreservation.
Prog Clin Biol Res. 1986;224:305-35. Review. No abstract available.
PMID: 3540994 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Rall WF, Fahy GM.
Ice-free cryopreservation of mouse embryos at -196 degrees C by
vitrification.
Nature. 1985 Feb 14-20;313(6003):573-5.
PMID: 3969158 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fahy GM, MacFarlane DR, Angell CA, Meryman HT.
Vitrification as an approach to cryopreservation.
Cryobiology. 1984 Aug;21(4):407-26. No abstract available.
PMID: 6467964 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


>>>>>

Dear Peter Passaro,

Apart almost 20 year old article from the Rall WF, Fahy GM. article on
Ice-free cryopreservation of mouse embryos at -196 degrees C by
vitrification.Nature. 1985 Feb 14-20;313(6003):573-5, you did not answer my
original question (see below).  Are you saying that the activites at Alcor
in Arizona are focused on harvesting organ transplants? Is that the contract
that Alcor signs with its clients? There seems to be a difference between
storing organs and bodies of clients who have the expectation of coming back
to life.

Ted Downing
State Representative
 
PS. Are you on the faculty at GIT?

>>>>>

Dear Mr. Downing,

I tried to answer your question by expressing to you that this is an active
area of research in the scientific literature. Science and Nature are
extremely conservative journals and would not publish something of this nature
until such time as the debate is settled, but that there is a very clear track
record of increasing success of cryonics in the peer reviewed literature.

An emphatic NO on Alcor harvesting organs, they have never been part of any
such activities and always treat their clients with utmost of respect and
care.  I was simply pointing out that because the scientific field of low
temperature organ storage and revival is achieving great success, it is not
too great a jump from storing tissues to cryogenically suspending and reviving
people.

Alcor has been quite clear with me and all their clients that this is still a
speculative area of research, and that there is no guarantee of success. The
point of both my previous messages is that even though I am not completely
convinced curent techniques will be able to allow possible revival, I still
choose this method of funeral and expect it to be carried out with the
greatest of possible technical skill. Passing HB 2637 will likely take away
that choice from me and many others.

As to my credentials - I have a BS in microbiology, an MS in molecular
neuroscience, extensive training in human biology of aging, physiology, and
biochemistry. I was previously a biotechnology industry analyst for a number
of years and a staff scientist for UCLA. At Georgia Tech, I am not faculty,
but I am a very active researcher. I am 2 years into completing my
neuroengineering doctorate and my research gives me unique expertise in
commenting on the viability of neural tissue after long term storage.

Sincerely,
Peter Passaro

ppassaro@neuro.gatech.edu
http://www.neuro.gatech.edu

Laboratory for Neuroengineering
Georgia Institue of Technology
Atlanta, Ga 30332

[Bruce Klein]

The following is a VERY ROUGH typed log of the IDEAS exchanged during the House discussion:

downing: the idea of life extension, etc is unnerveing
downing: needs reg. .. there is no link to research
downing: until someone comes back from dead.. unconvinced
downing: very little scientific lit. and only ref. at the cell level
downing: people afraid of dying
downing: concerned about people's assets being frozen like bodies are frozen

[thefirstimmortal]

Dear Peter Passaro,

Thank you for your comments. The issue is not whether or not there is a
complaint.  To me, it is an issue of scientific credibility.  Help me on
this, please. Can you name a faculty researcher from either the University
of Arizona or Arizona State University who is working with you at Alcor Life
Extension Foundation? And can you name an article published in Science or
Nature, the two major peer reviewed scientific journals supporting your
theory of life extension? 

Auuugh,
I can't resist, they aren't voting on this until Monday. Here goes another 3 days, response coming.....

[thefirstimmortal]

In the mean time, could someone please post Ted Downing e-mail addy.

[Bruce Klein]

tdowning@azleg.state.az.us

If anyone know explicitly how the AZ legislation works in terms of first, second and third reads, feel free to reply.

[Lazarus Long]

Win, lose, or draw on this one Bill, et al you had better just consider it a dry run for a State by State battle combined with probable Federal guidelines now being considered for all interstate transport for cadavers.

As I suggested in Randolf's thread, I think you need to start drafting legislation and catch the wave rather than fighting the tide. Some form of legislation is inevitable. It makes too good a sacrificial lamb for politicos in the frenzied blood lust the heat of the season generates.

[thefirstimmortal]

tdowning@azleg.state.az.us

Thank you BJ

[thefirstimmortal]

Win, lose, or draw on this one Bill, et al you had better just consider it a dry run for a State by State battle combined with probable Federal guidelines now being considered for all interstate transport for cadavers.

As I suggested in Randolf's thread, I think you need to start drafting legislation and catch the wave rather than fighting the tide.  Some form of legislation is inevitable.  It makes too good a sacrificial lamb for politicos in the frenzied blood lust the heat of the season generates.

I disagree Laz, and I'm too lazy to do 50 cases. I'm thinking in terms of one big Supreme Court Case. And as far as legislation being inevitable, well, as long as Alcor keeps fighting their fight that statement has merit. When they wake up and defend it on the merits of religious activity, things will change. What chance to you think for instance, that the Arizona Legislators have of regulating prayer for instance?

[Bruce Klein]

Recording of the Mar 11 HB 2637 AZ House Session:

Excellent 55 Min Overview on the situation - well worth the listen. Also available is the Feb 26 Health Committee Meeting

http://www.l5news.org/alcor/

[Lazarus Long]

Because of the Tulane scandal that is also now breaking there is already talk of introducing legislation to federally regulate all the interstate transport of cadavers. I am only bringing this up because it will inevitably overlap cryo if they are caught in a state by state set of restrictions to prevent transport that is critical to the success of their procedures.

I think if you try and prepare for an endgame strategy only you run a serious risk they will create overly restrictive legislation that can be up-held at the Supreme Court level. Trying to prove a religious argument in support of any specific procedure is not beyond the scope of regulation but it is only a harder cross for government to bring to bear not an impossible one. (I guess I should apologize for the pun). )

Too many factors are combining though and the religious argument will require adoption of "cult" status as well. I think a preemptive strike is better if favorably modeled legislation could be crafted that some 'first state' could be lobbied to get behind then the State by State fight can be shifted to the local political arena and not be fought one by one. Also the Feds are definitely going to move on this and if you wait for them to regulate and then contest you will be fighting a losing uphill battle; this is already categorized as interstate commerce trading in body parts and they have the right to regulate. "How" they regulate is a different issue.

The Fed is grumbling that it cannot allow continued unregulated traffic in body parts for science, medicine or no doubt as they are now aware, for commercial storage. There are too many fears associated with the "Legal Limbo" of the nearly dearly (UN)dead. You guys have only scratched the surface. You just wait till the first revival is confirmed and then no one will be classified as dead to begin with and a whole slew of even worse legislation can then take effect.

Since government is not likely to exit the process anytime soon I am saying that IMHO it is better to get in front of the legislative process than be constantly reacting. Once you are dead you no longer own your body as its disposition is transferred to family, institutions, or in this case ALCOR and herein comes the rival claims of the families that want their "religious" sensibilities served as well.

I am on your side but I am also watching this storm brewing on the horizon already and sending you a storm warning. Now I'll listen to the House Session.

[thefirstimmortal]

From: "John B. Nelson" <jnelson@azleg.state.az.us> Add to Address Book
To: "'William O'Rights'" <thefirstimmortal@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Question, Is HB 2637 neutral, and...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:23:38 -0700


Thank you for your e-mail regarding HB2637. I am opposed to this bill for the reason that I feel this is an issue that could be resolved by the specific parties involved. Therefore, I don't feel state legislation is needed.

Thanks again,

Rep. John Nelson

[Mind]

Laz: As I suggested in Randolf's thread, I think you need to start drafting legislation and catch the wave rather than fighting the tide. Some form of legislation is inevitable. It makes too good a sacrificial lamb for politicos in the frenzied blood lust the heat of the season generates.

No No No No No No No No!

We are the rising tide. The people who would like to have power over Alcor and Cryonics (quite possibly to put them out of business and thaw all the patients) are fighting the tide. They see their world changing, a flood is coming, and they are trying desperately to hold it back. It is useless. In the long term they will lose, but in the short term they might just end up killing a few suspended people. This is intolerable.

We must fight. Drafting legislation is a good idea. Good for plan B that is. A dual or triple pronged attack is much much better. We should be using every weapon at our disposal. Sue, Protest, Legislate.

[thefirstimmortal]

No No No No No No No No!

We are the rising tide. The people who would like to have power over Alcor and Cryonics (quite possibly to put them out of business and thaw all the patients) are fighting the tide. They see their world changing, a flood is coming, and they are trying desperately to hold it back. It is useless. In the long term they will lose, but in the short term they might just end up killing a few suspended people. This is intolerable.

We must fight. Drafting legislation is a good idea. Good for plan B that is. A dual or triple pronged attack is much much better. We should be using every weapon at our disposal. Sue, Protest, Legislate.

I agree with much of what you are saying here, especially using every weapon at our disposal, like suing, protesting, and challenging the law itself I might add, but where are you guys getting this whole concept that anyone on our side is going to draft our own legislation? Am I missing something guys?

[bgwowk]

I agree with much of what you are saying here, especially using every weapon at our disposal, like suing, protesting, and challenging the law itself I might add, but where are you guys getting this whole concept that anyone on our side is going to draft our own legislation? Am I missing something guys?

If it decides to do so, Alcor has legislative allies at the state level that would introduce bills on Alcor's behalf-- even bills that could overturn the pending legislation. Getting them passed is another matter.

---BrianW

[Lazarus Long]

The legislative approach is the best manner of creating at least one State that functions as a "Safe Haven". Suing and protesting makes no law. If you are fighting that war you are already retreating legally and facing mounting organized opposition. It may yield postive effects "over the long haul" but actually takes far longer and the results are far less predicable than through direct legislative action.

Suing is a trap if you fall into maintaining dozens or HUNDREDS of multiple actions in County, State, and Federal Courts. Not just ALCOR but your entire industry could expend a large percentage, if not all of its resources in this battle instead of doing constructive scientific research or building facilities and investing in other more important areas. The system favors government in this respect and you could find yourself with contradictory results and a decade or more before any single decisive action was even heard by the Supreme Court. Remember they don't "have" to hear cases either and could default a lower court ruling into 'effect.' The whole process could turn into a rear guard retreat if you don't receive injunctive relief and some judge somewhere succeeds in shutting you down first.

Protest?

Please, I do not see hundreds of thousands marching for the right to freeze the dead. Not that there won't be some protest, THERE ALWAYS IS but protest is a numbers game and no poll puts this anywhere near the top of the radar screens for most people. This "cause" would have to get them out and demonstrating for a considerable period, and in many places.

Letter writing?

This is effective and already occurring but it is more a part of a 'negotiating process' than protest and negotiation is really about legislating. Mark up a favorable bill and put it out where some competent politicos can feel comfortable if they put their names on it, that is the name of the game. Time is against you and worse if you are wasting significant resources fighting a mountain of bad legislation.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 13 March 2004 - 03:26 PM.

[thefirstimmortal]

If it decides to do so, Alcor has legislative allies at the state level that would introduce bills on Alcor's behalf-- even bills that could overturn the pending legislation.  Getting them passed is another matter.

---BrianW

I'm impressed that they have allies that would introduce a bill, and I'm impressed by Linda Lopez, after reading the debate. Fine effort. I will dissect that with commentary when I get a chance.

[reason]

Some updates:

http://www.fightagin...ives/000048.php

http://www.alcor.org...egislation.html
http://www.alcor.org...on20040313.html

Note that the CEO feels that the few people who directed anger at the legislatives greatly hurt their chances.

I cannot over-emphasize how much the negative communication to legislators hurt our cause on Thursday. It is simply unacceptable to impugn the integrity of a member of the legislature no matter how passionate you may feel about an issue. Our responsibility as citizens is to respectfully and briefly state our position, explain why the proposed legislation should be defeated, and thank the legislators for considering our interests. Personal attacks against a respected member of the legislature are a sure way to quickly lose support, as we saw on Thursday. If you don’t feel you can calmly and respectfully state your case, then you should not contact members of the legislature at all. Alcor once again owes Representative Stump an apology for the unwarranted actions of a few.

This is an unfortunate consequence of giving politicians power without any immediate checks to the way in which they use this power. Voting for office holders every few years, especially in this age of incumbent protection, is simply not enough. Politicians can behave as badly as they like in the short term, but we must bow and scrape in order to prevent them from damaging our businesses and lives.

So be polite, folks, even if you have to grit your teeth in order to do so.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[Bruce Klein]

Good point, Reason. Focus on channeling the emotional energy into intelligent leveraged action that will result in greater benefit for the overall mission of Alcor.

Unprofessionalism is a deadly boomerang.

[bgwowk]

Some words of wisdom written by Dr. Steve Harris many years ago:

The point of this article, however, is that persecution should be left as a diagnosis of exclusion, while we attempt to solve our problems in other ways. One of the things which socially effective people come to realize sooner or later, is that in adversarial dealings with bureaucracies, individuals gain enormous power by deliberately draining all anger and emotion from each encounter, and spending that energy finding ways to apply for concessions and service. Hard as that may be to do in certain emergency situations, this is a lesson which still remains essential to cryonics. Insect societies provide the metaphor. Whether one is being dragged to the scrap heap because one has been sprayed with the wrong chemical, or because one has not been able to check the correct box on a State of California VS-9 form, it's all pretty much the same mechanical thing. In either case, the problem is an intellectual puzzle, not an act of malice, and the long term answer is not physical or emotional struggle. Of course the system that carries out such actions is monumentally brainless. But if we ourselves are not capable of solving the problem by altering some simple programming within that system, then we ourselves will not deserve to be counted much brighter.

May we remember not to personalize simple stupidity. It's a lesson we can learn from the ants.

The excellent essay from which this text is excerpted is at

http://www.alcor.org...eadAntHeap.html

---BrianW