23 replies to this topic

[1kgcoffee]

Ahhhh the age old question - what should we eat?

I've learned so much here at ImmInst, but there seems to be lots of noise when it comes to diet. The only agreement is in what we should not eat, IE refined carbs, sugar, trans fats, AGEs etc.

Does phenotype matter? Like many here, I'm a mutt (1/2 Moroccan, 1/4 Austrian, 1/4 Russian.) I seem to be sensitive to dairy and gluten.

Which is best?
-The Weston Price/Paleolithic style diet is interesting. It could lead to high energy levels and vitality, but less than maximal life span. Feel free to argue this.
-The vegan, especially raw vegan with supplemented B12 seems very promising. Low levels of methionine and AGE's, lower rates of CVD and increased life span, but there is some evidence that vegans and vegeterians are prone to shrinking brain and muscle mass and a lower level of vitality. I see some few that look phenomenally healthy and many who look like shriveled up prunes. They don't get enough of the special amino acids like carnitine, carnosine and taurine. It would be a difficult thing to pull off and probably not suitable for everyone.
-Then there are a host of diets in between. Some examples are the Okinawan, Kitavan, Meditteranian and traditional Korean. (I think these are the most promising)

So here's the survey. In your opinion:
What type of diet is best to follow?
What is the best ratio of carbs to fats to protein? (if there is one) Do you vary them to time of day or rotate them or something crazy?
What foods are the best sources of nutrients? (favourite superfoods, forgetting price)
What foods are the most cost effective and healthy staples?
Do you use specific preparation methods such as fermentation or steaming?
Do you follow some type of intermittent fasting? What pattern?
Are there any supplements you consider absolutely essential?

Also, if you have any recipes, please share!

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 05 September 2009 - 05:52 PM.

[kenj]

Lots of good Q's, - just briefly: I'm not sure of which diet is 'best', - however if you can work a calorie reduced diet ensuring all vitamins and minerals, you're ultimately on top of the game, ISTM.
I have tried variations of low carb, - high fat, - high carb, - and I seem to thrive well on a higher carb, low-medium protein'(f)ishy, medium fatty-thing because I exercise almost daily, and I like the immediate light 'feeling' of energy from the carbs. Most importantly, this is one diet I can sustain for life.. Foods with a low caloric content, albeit with a high nutritious content is sustainable.

If you like a paleo'type of diet, well, as long as you don't gorge yourself in the calories and get the vits & mins, FWIW I don't think it's gonna make a huuuge difference +/- in the end. (Um, wrong wording. =))
The thing I'd like to emphasize is a diet high in salt and sugar is not healthy, and leads to dependence, which can be a major problem in a society with great potential for craving ~'stimulants'. Remember, we are not mice in a cage, so choose your addictions wisely. 8-)

Edited by kenj, 06 September 2009 - 08:09 AM.

[1kgcoffee]

I'd start CR in a flash if it weren't for the nasty side effect of skinnyness. Maybe in middle age.
Next best thing seems to be keeping a lean body mass + taking the right combo of supplements.

Isn't the methionine a problem with the paleo diet?

[Sillewater]

I agree with Kenj: I don't think it'll make too huge a difference in the end. Right now I have settled on a lower carb, higher fat diet because this is what makes me feel best. I can't handle high carb diets (but my high carb diet wasn't paleo). I am convinced that to prevent heart disease, diabetes, and other modern ailments paleo is the way to go and with some supplements and some non-paleo food (such as oats, olive oil, coconut oil) that would be great.

[JLL]

-The vegan, especially raw vegan with supplemented B12 seems very promising. Low levels of methionine and AGE's, lower rates of CVD and increased life span, but there is some evidence that vegans and vegeterians are prone to shrinking brain and muscle mass and a lower level of vitality. I see some few that look phenomenally healthy and many who look like shriveled up prunes. They don't get enough of the special amino acids like carnitine, carnosine and taurine. It would be a difficult thing to pull off and probably not suitable for everyone.

The AGE issue is somewhat more complex in vegetarians than one might think (even more complex than "fructose is bad" IMO). Taurine/carnosine supplementation might help, but there are no studies to prove it.

What is the traditional Korean diet like? Are they exceptionally healthy?

Do you follow some type of intermittent fasting? What pattern?

I've been doing intermittent fasting for over a year now. During the week, I fast from 6 PM to 6 PM. On weekends, social life gets in the way.

Really the only supplement I consider essential is vitamin D3. Vitamin K2 looks really good, and I've started taking it, but it's still one step below vit D.

[Naty]

The low carb diet craze is fuelled by the idea that "all carbs are bad for weight control". Therefore the less carbs we eat, the better. The truth is, the leanest and longest living people in the industrialized world are the Japanese whose diet is dominated by carbohydrates and is low in fat. High carb foods like grains, rice, and vegetables are daily staples of the Japanese diet, and intake of high protein, high fat animal products is minimal. Yet Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes in the world. Promoters of the "all carbs are bad for weight loss" viewpoint know this perfectly well - they know the problem lies in high-GI carbohydrates and junk food - but this does not get attention-grabbing headlines.


-----------------------
(edited by Matthias: links removed)

Edited by Matthias, 04 October 2009 - 12:29 PM.

[TheFountain]

The low carb diet craze is fuelled by the idea that "all carbs are bad for weight control". Therefore the less carbs we eat, the better. The truth is, the leanest and longest living people in the industrialized world are the Japanese whose diet is dominated by carbohydrates and is low in fat. High carb foods like grains, rice, and vegetables are daily staples of the Japanese diet, and intake of high protein, high fat animal products is minimal. Yet Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes in the world. Promoters of the "all carbs are bad for weight loss" viewpoint know this perfectly well - they know the problem lies in high-GI carbohydrates and junk food - but this does not get attention-grabbing headlines.


-----------------------
(edited by Matthias: links removed)

Then why do they continue to promote the idea that all carbs are bad? And what about genetic accountability when it comes to the ability of Japanese people to consume so many carbs without long term consequences?

Edited by Matthias, 04 October 2009 - 12:30 PM.

[DukeNukem]

Benefits of High-Saturated Fat Diets (Part V): The Traditional Okinawans
http://drbganimalpha...-fat-diets.html

[Matt]

that is not what the 30 year study shows from studying over 900 centenarians and looking at THEIR lifestyle... they did not eat high saturated fat... although now okinawans do and they're getting many diseases like the west. Not saying its all down to the sf, but sugar and carbs aswell.... I've read the okinawan books many times.... and says something completely different to what that blog says

[DukeNukem]

When people point to Asians for eating carbs, what they do not realize is that carbs are not the primary macro-nutrient in their diets. It's fat. And very healthy fats, unless the processed oils used in the States, for example. Also, the carbs are non-gluten carbs, an exceedingly significant point. I've recently done a lot of traveling in Asian, and talked to them about their diets. They eat practically no bread -- in fact, I met several in their 30's who'd never even tried bread. They do NOT eat a lot of rice -- a serving is a small cup, not a huge pile like we get served in the States.

A similar story in France and Greece, where bread is served, yes, but portions are small, they use natural oils, butter and lard to cook, and they do not snack between meals.

The French Paradox is that there is no paradox. It's only as paradox because the majority of nutritional scientists believe that the high saturated fatty foods eaten by the french should be clogging arteries. When, in fact, it's the opposite.
http://drbganimalpha...y-hecht-md.html
http://drbganimalpha...-longevity.html

[TheFountain]

Benefits of High-Saturated Fat Diets (Part V): The Traditional Okinawans
http://drbganimalpha...-fat-diets.html

Their diet is not high in animal meat as the blogger states. I don't know where s/he got that idea from. It might be moderate in fat consumption but definitely not high. It is also not low in carbohydrates, just bad carbs.

[DukeNukem]

Benefits of High-Saturated Fat Diets (Part V): The Traditional Okinawans
http://drbganimalpha...-fat-diets.html

Their diet is not high in animal meat as the blogger states. I don't know where s/he got that idea from. It might be moderate in fat consumption but definitely not high. It is also not low in carbohydrates, just bad carbs.

Well, she's Asian. And she's researched this thoroughly, and is using other's research, too. You should read a lot of her entries to get a better picture. She's one of the best 10 or so paleo health bloggers on the web.

[TheFountain]

Benefits of High-Saturated Fat Diets (Part V): The Traditional Okinawans
http://drbganimalpha...-fat-diets.html

Their diet is not high in animal meat as the blogger states. I don't know where s/he got that idea from. It might be moderate in fat consumption but definitely not high. It is also not low in carbohydrates, just bad carbs.

Well, she's Asian. And she's researched this thoroughly, and is using other's research, too. You should read a lot of her entries to get a better picture. She's one of the best 10 or so paleo health bloggers on the web.

No doubt she has a good grasp on health and nutrition+paleo dieting I just think maybe she got some numbers mixed up or maybe she is using a different sampling of Okinawans than most other researchers do because my understanding is that their diet is low in animal meat, moderate in fat consumption (good O-3/O-6 ratio) and relatively high in carbs (compared to a paleo dieter). Maybe she is subtracting fiber and low GI foods though.

Edited by TheFountain, 02 October 2009 - 01:33 AM.

[Skötkonung]

Benefits of High-Saturated Fat Diets (Part V): The Traditional Okinawans
http://drbganimalpha...-fat-diets.html

Their diet is not high in animal meat as the blogger states. I don't know where s/he got that idea from. It might be moderate in fat consumption but definitely not high. It is also not low in carbohydrates, just bad carbs.

I agree with what you're saying. My girlfriend is of Okinawan decent on her father's side, and Japanese on her mother's side. Her father and father's parents came from Okinawa. Her surname, which is Tamanaha, actually has the name of the Okinawan capital city (Naha) in it.

Although she is completely westernized, having been born in the United States (Hawaii), this summer I had a chance to meet both her grandparents and enjoy a couple days worth of traditional Okinawan meals. For one thing, they traditionally consume very little rice (by western asian food standards), and until the last couple of decades, that rice was brown rice. They also eat a lot of green vegetables, tubers, and small citrus fruits that grow locally. For meat, they eat a lot of pork, fish, (to a limited extent) horse / goat, and eggs, but high levels of consumption are constrained to celebrations. These are usually stir fried with the vegetables. This diet seems to reduce growth in children, as both my girlfriend's father and his parents are quite a bit shorter than my girlfriend and her brothers that were raised on a Western diet. In addition to this, both her grandparents are extremely active.They would go on several kilometer walks every morning, and I got the impression this is something they did regularly back home.

So, from my experience, the Okinawan's consume a moderate carb, moderate fat, and a comparatively moderate-low protein diet. The defining characteristic being that they eat a large variety of foods in small amounts. Whether this is the best way to eat for everyone remains to be seen, but it certainly has benefited some of the Okinawan population. Furthermore, most of the younger Okinawan people do not apparently eat this way, they eat much more like the Japanese and Americans.

At any rate, I found this study on protein intake and the Okinawan people:
Estimated protein intake and blood pressure in a screened cohort in Okinawa, Japan.

"In summary, estimated daily protein intake was about 1.1 g/kg in men and 1.0 g/kg in women. Despite the higher urinary excretion of Na, both SBP and DBP tended to be lower in those with higher daily protein intake, particularly in men."

For an 180lb man, that would be about 88-89g of protein a day. That is low by paleo standards.

Edited by Skotkonung, 02 October 2009 - 04:22 AM.

[JLL]

Everyone seems to have their own idea of what the Okinawans eat :D Maybe we're just projecting on them what we would like the longevity diet. One documentary claimed they eat very little fat, very little meat, and lots of vegetables -- others say they eat more (saturated) fat than we think.

As for Asia, when I visited China, they ate quite a bit of noodles and rice, relatively little fat (which was mostly vegetable oils), some vegetables and some meat. Very good tasting, but not too healthy. Older Chinese people don't look all that healthy either.

Edited by JLL, 02 October 2009 - 07:30 AM.

[wolfeye]

The Okinawan diet is a low calorie and low fructose diet.

[Mind]

One universal theme that has developed in the last decade is that hi GI foods should be avoided. Most other things are debatable, but from the experts I have talked to and research I have read here in the forums, extremely low fat diets are not good either.

[HaloTeK]

Mind, I don't think your statement is correct at all -- in terms of high GI foods to be avoided. We have had lots of research come out on Kitavan people and the majority of their diet was extremely high GI potatoes. It is in fact the case that most hunter/gatherer groups processed their tubers or carbohydrates to minimize anti-nutrients (this creates a very high GI). Your statement would be correct if you had said processed high GI foods that are not natural. I would in fact make the statement that you want a higher GI because why would I want elevated glucose in the system for hours? I want it cleared fast! Obviously, you avoid this with a low carb diet - but that also has its' own issues.

Many of the misconceptions of natural high GI foods are cleared up on the blog wholehealthsource -- I think Stephan does a pretty good job of digesting the science.

One universal theme that has developed in the last decade is that hi GI foods should be avoided. Most other things are debatable, but from the experts I have talked to and research I have read here in the forums, extremely low fat diets are not good either.

[Blue]

Regarding:
http://drbganimalpha...-fat-diets.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12733696

The young Okinawans are now fattest group in Japan and as a whole the Okinawans do not longer have impressive mortality. Thus it is incorrect to look at the diet now or in the 70s. I will return with a good source for the traditional Okinawan diet.

Edited by Blue, 10 October 2009 - 07:47 PM.

[Blue]

Survey of everyday diet of Okinawan people (1919):
Class Energy (kcal) Protein (g) Fat (g) Carbohydrates (g) Notes

A 2395 42.4 (7.1) 4.4 (1.7) 546 (91.2) White rice 3~6 bowls (420~840 g) Sweet potato 1~2 serves (600~1200 g)
B 2868 38.0 (5.3) 5.1 (1.6) 668 (93.1) White rice/millet 1~2 bowls (140~280 g) Sweet potato 3~6 serves (1800~3600 g)
C 3650 39.0 (4.3) 5.8 (1.4) 860 (94.3) Sweet potato 4.5~8 serves (2700~4800 g)

A, teachers, public officials, etc; B, part-time farmers; C, full-time farmers.

The farmers and the part-time farmers thus mostly ate sweet potatoes as their base food.

"sweet potato made up some 93%
of the everyday diet in the Ryukyu fiefdom, considerably
more than any other region... ...Meals
consisted of 'sweet potato and miso soup with plenty of vege-
tables' for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and between meals or
snack might be steamed sweet potato... ...If we com-
pare the nutritional content of steamed sweet potato and
boiled white rice, we find that rice contains more energy-
giving protein, fat and carbohydrates than sweet potato, with
23 kcal more energy per 100 g. Sweet potato contains more
fibre, minerals and considerably more calcium, potassium
and vitamins (B1, B2 and C). This made the sweet potato a
vitally important staple food at the time, when there was less
variety of foods available compared to the present... ...farm-
ers were obtaining an average of 700 mg/day of Vitamin C
per person form their staple food. If we take into account the
radish and sweet potato leaves and other green vegetables
found in their miso soup, we find they ate 'longevity food,
plain but rich in vitamins, minerals and fibre'.
In addition, some form of festival occurred nearly every
month and although there were local variations, consumption
of animal protein in the form of fish, pork or goat was always
a feature, helping build stamina and resistance to disease.
Okinawan red sweet potatoes are well-known throughout
Japan as having a high polyphenol content. Deep yellow
varieties include the Okinawa no. 100, the Ajimasari, and the
Sakiyama Benii, and others have high levels of anthocyanin
pigments. The various types of sweet potato all have high
levels of anti-oxidants and have long formed the staple diet
of the people of Okinawa...
...In Okinawa, they have sayings such as, 'Eat the entire pig
and leave nothing, and 'You can eat every part of a pig apart
from its oink'. In other words, a feature of pork cuisine is the
clever use of all the beast, including the pig's legs and feet,
ears, the skin of the face, heart, kidneys, lungs and other
organs... ...we fed pigs feet, ears, stomach and
intestine to hyperlipidaemic white rats and examined the
effects on lipid metabolism. The results, as shown in Tables 3
and 4, show that a statistically significant reduction in serum
and hepatic triglyceride levels was seen in rats fed pigs
feet. This indicates that pork cuisine is not simply a source
of protein, but also has health-giving effects as a result of its
collagen content. It deserves attention as an integral part of
Okinawan longevity food...
...The Okinawan people have always included a number of dif-
ferent varieties of seaweed in their everyday diet and in large
amounts... ...Konbu grows in seawater
and said to contain 45 or more different elements, all being
important minerals. The absorption rate has been reported to
be high, and konbu also contains dietary fibre and essential
fatty acids such as eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosa-
hexaenoic acid (DHA)...
...Okinawan people eat tofu regularly. Consumption of large
amounts of seaweed rich in sulfur-containing amino acids
brings supplementary effects of amino acids and makes good
dietary sense for Okinawan people, as these amino acids are
lacking in soybean protein. Pork, konbu and tofu are indispen-
sible ingredients in festival menus and the combination of tofu
and seaweed is common in the everyday diet....
...Raw sugar is eaten in healthy snacks with tea an
cha (a semifermented tea) is a popular drink... .
..Salt consumption is the lowest in Japan...
... Leafy vegetables and herbs that are rich in dietary fibre,
chlorophyll and Vitamins A and C, are part of the every-
day diet...
...The diet is also rich in several other important nutrients,
such as curcumin (yellowish substance found in curry
powder) and anthocyanin (found in red sweet potatoes)."
http://apjcn.nhri.or...vol10.2/Sho.pdf

Looking at the first table, the farmers, who likely did a great deal of physical work, ate a very high-calorie, protein restricted (likely often protein intake under the RDA of 0.8g/kg even for the smaller Japanese), superlow fat, superhigh carbohydrate diet.

Edited by Blue, 10 October 2009 - 07:44 PM.

[kai73]

Personally i think there isn't a huge difference (in health and lifespan) between various diets (paleolithic/mediterranenan/okinawan) provided they all are based on healthy (and mostly raw food).

So if you eat meat/veggies/fruit/nuts/eggs you never go wrong. Add some whole wheat pasta (but no souce, just extravirgin oil and raw tomatos).

I am italian and have been recently in the states (california is damn cool) for holiday. And i was amazed to see entire families going to the beach and basically eating candies/french fries/coke/pepsi and basically any junk food as the ONLY food they were eating the whole day. So, if you compare ANY diet with no junk food you already are 90% in the right direction.

[kai73]

Personally i think there isn't a huge difference (in health and lifespan) between various diets (paleolithic/mediterranenan/okinawan) provided they all are based on healthy (and mostly raw food).

So if you eat meat/veggies/fruit/nuts/eggs you never go wrong. Add some whole wheat pasta (but no souce, just extravirgin oil and raw tomatos).

I am italian and have been recently in the states (california is damn cool) for holiday. And i was amazed to see entire families going to the beach and basically eating candies/french fries/coke/pepsi and basically any junk food as the ONLY food they were eating the whole day. So, if you compare ANY diet with no junk food you already are 90% in the right direction.

[wolfeye]

The low carb diet craze is fuelled by the idea that "all carbs are bad for weight control". Therefore the less carbs we eat, the better. The truth is, the leanest and longest living people in the industrialized world are the Japanese whose diet is dominated by carbohydrates and is low in fat. High carb foods like grains, rice, and vegetables are daily staples of the Japanese diet, and intake of high protein, high fat animal products is minimal. Yet Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes in the world. Promoters of the "all carbs are bad for weight loss" viewpoint know this perfectly well - they know the problem lies in high-GI carbohydrates and junk food - but this does not get attention-grabbing headlines.


-----------------------
(edited by Matthias: links removed)

Japanese diet is a high starch and low fructose diet

[kurdishfella]

Japan has superior diet so when westerners arrive there and have access to the healthy food they conflate it with the japan experience and thus like japan and want to move there.   

Edited by kurdishfella, 22 May 2022 - 08:04 AM.