23 replies to this topic

[Johann]

In previous comments on this board, I expressed satisfaction with Vitacost. I am beginning to change my mind about them.

They wouldn't post my critical review of the NSI 450 MG Pantethine. I reposted it again today and we'll see what happens.

Products I still recommend from Vitacost are the BSI brand of K2, ALCAR, Taurine and
Hawthorne Extract.

[tunt01]

i think they keep very little in stock and dont order from mfg'r until you place your order.

my order from them took a very long time, but it did arrive. i also noticed they got very mixed reviews.

[niner]

They wouldn't post my critical review of the NSI 450 MG Pantethine. I reposted it again today and we'll see what happens.

Iherb didn't post my critical review of a magnesium supplement. I think that reviews on vendor sites are a really poor way to learn anything. Not only do they seem to be screened for anything negative, but they are mostly trivial comments from people who don't seem to know much about what they're commenting on. Given that a company that I otherwise like also engages in this practice, I can't really hold it against Vitacost. It still sucks. They shouldn't have "testimonials" at all, if you ask me.

[rwac]

Iherb didn't post my critical review of a magnesium supplement.

niner, do tell us what the supplement was, and what the problem with it was.
ImmInst should be a pretty good place for negative reviews ...

[niner]

Iherb didn't post my critical review of a magnesium supplement.

niner, do tell us what the supplement was, and what the problem with it was.
ImmInst should be a pretty good place for negative reviews ...

I actually don't remember the exact one. (It was a while ago.) It was an orotate, as I recall. The problem was misleading labeling or advertising, having to do with the distinction between elemental weight and weight of the whole salt. It didn't regard the quality of the supplement itself, which I couldn't say anything about one way or the other.

[nameless]

Was it this guy?
http://www.iherb.com...blets/6091?at=0

I believe it only has something like 33mg elemental magnesium per tablet, yet it lists it as total mag + orotate (500mg). And yeah, it's very misleading.

As for Vitacost, I see no real reason to order from them. iHerb has just about everything they do, and they pricematch on orders over $60. If they don't have it, Swanon's almost always does, and I feel more confident in Swanson branded supplements over the NSI brand too.

[niner]

Was it this guy?
http://www.iherb.com...blets/6091?at=0

I believe it only has something like 33mg elemental magnesium per tablet, yet it lists it as total mag + orotate (500mg). And yeah, it's very misleading.

Yes, I believe that was it. They have the %DV wrong, although it does say "(as magnesium orotate)", even though the DV is calculated as though it was elemental. I'm not sure if it said as orotate before; they might have added that. There's no way they could get 500mg of elemental Mg in a single pill as the orotate salt. It's just wrong. iherb is a great outfit; I really like them, but they just totally dropped the ball on this. They have too many products, imo.

[jessicantique]

i used to shop at vitacost, and used some NSI products, after all the bad things i read here, now i shift to swanson,

i don't know why most of you recommend iherb here, their prices are always higher than swanson, vitacost and luckyvitamin.

for me, sometimes the NSI brand is ok when they use propriety patent materials from other manufacturer only, though i still avoid it.

did someone compare the international shipping rate between vitacost and swanson? vitacost is still a choice for me to buy other brands.

[TheFountain]

i used to shop at vitacost, and used some NSI products, after all the bad things i read here, now i shift to swanson,

i don't know why most of you recommend iherb here, their prices are always higher than swanson, vitacost and luckyvitamin.

for me, sometimes the NSI brand is ok when they use propriety patent materials from other manufacturer only, though i still avoid it.

did someone compare the international shipping rate between vitacost and swanson? vitacost is still a choice for me to buy other brands.

Swanson has a plethora of exotic herbs that are cheaper than Iherbs prices, but Iherb has some other things swanson lacks, and some things that are cheaper. My solution is to order from both websites.

[nameless]

Swanon's is great when they have their 'buy one, get one free' sales on something you want.

As for iHerb, VIP customers also get a minimum 10% off, and shipping is free on orders over $40 (US orders). Their listed prices also don't matter for orders over $60, as if you email them with a lower price (and website), they'll pricematch anyway.

[Blue]

I would really like to know the evidence against Vitacost/NSI besides anecdotal stories. They are inexpensive but this does not necessarily mean lacking quality. One cost saving is cutting out the middleman IHerb. Unlike most companies they do not include various extra components in useless concentrations to confuse and mislead customers which is a good sign for me. Some of their multis look like they, while imperfect, may be the best I have seen for recommending to people who do not want supplements to be a time-consuming hobby. Their own manufacturing and quality description, which they as a large company will be careful to not be inaccurate, is not as impressive as Now Foods but far better than the almost non-existant (or non-existant!) descriptions of manufacturing and quality procedures from supposedly high-quality suppliers such as LEF and Jarrow:
http://www.vitacost....y/Manufacturing

Edited by Blue, 09 September 2009 - 08:02 PM.

[Blue]

The complaint with the NSI Pantethine was a lack of the mental effect seen with Source Naturals pantethine: "Within a couple of hours of taking it, an unexplainable nice clean refreshing feeling came into my brain." That is not a known effect from Panethine so I would be scared regarding what exactly is in the Source Natural product (if it is not a placebo effect). Regarding your content complaint, pantethine is the disulfide dimer of pantothenic acid so the statement of 55% pantethine is probably right. Source Naturals also describe content in terms of pantothenic acid so you in fact get less pantethine from their product.
http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=345275

The complaint is in fact in the Vitacost product reviews. Maybe you forgot to click on the next page button?
http://www.vitacost....#ProductReviews

Credit to Vitacost for including negative reviews if IHerb does not.

Edited by Blue, 09 September 2009 - 08:44 PM.

[Johann]

The complaint with the NSI Pantethine was a lack of the mental effect seen with Source Naturals pantethine: "Within a couple of hours of taking it, an unexplainable nice clean refreshing feeling came into my brain." That is not a known effect from Panethine so I would be scared regarding what exactly is in the Source Natural product (if it is not a placebo effect). Regarding your content complaint, pantethine is the disulfide dimer of pantothenic acid so the statement of 55% pantethine is probably right. Source Naturals also describe content in terms of pantothenic acid so you in fact get less pantethine from their product.
http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=345275

The complaint is in fact in the Vitacost product reviews. Maybe you forgot to click on the next page button?
http://www.vitacost....#ProductReviews

Credit to Vitacost for including negative reviews if IHerb does not.

To Vitacost's credit, they did eventually go on and publish my criticism.

However, taking a look at the back of the both bottles, Source Naturals states 300 MG Pantethine (which is what the front of the bottle says) -- no discrepancy.


But NSI, on the back of the bottle, states 55% (but the front of the bottle says 450 mg). The front of the bottle should not say Panethine 450 mg.

Edited by Johann, 10 September 2009 - 01:12 AM.

[Blue]

To Vitacost's credit, they did eventually go on and publish my criticism.

However, taking a look at the back of the both bottles, Source Naturals states 300 MG Pantethine (which is what the front of the bottle says) -- no discrepancy.


But NSI, on the back of the bottle, states 55% (but the front of the bottle says 450 mg). The front of the bottle should not say Panethine 450 mg.

Yes, you probably right about that. "Pantesine" is a brand name for a Japanese pharmaceutical formulation that contains 55% pantethine so front side is misleading. It contains 247.5 mg pantethine:
http://www.daiichi.d.../pantethine.pdf

Their product detail page is better:
http://www.vitacost....e-From-Pantesin

Still, since NSI has bought in a pharmaceutical grade product from a Japanese pharmaceutical company I think the product itself should be fine.

Edited by Blue, 10 September 2009 - 02:14 AM.

[jessicantique]

interestingly, vitacost just filed for IPO offering.

http://www.vitacost....esentation.aspx

[nameless]

I would really like to know the evidence against Vitacost/NSI besides anecdotal stories. They are inexpensive but this does not necessarily mean lacking quality. One cost saving is cutting out the middleman IHerb. Unlike most companies they do not include various extra components in useless concentrations to confuse and mislead customers which is a good sign for me. Some of their multis look like they, while imperfect, may be the best I have seen for recommending to people who do not want supplements to be a time-consuming hobby. Their own manufacturing and quality description, which they as a large company will be careful to not be inaccurate, is not as impressive as Now Foods but far better than the almost non-existant (or non-existant!) descriptions of manufacturing and quality procedures from supposedly high-quality suppliers such as LEF and Jarrow:
http://www.vitacost....y/Manufacturing

One thing about Vitacost/NSI (for me), is when I first ran across them I really wanted to like them. They have a ton of things and are pretty cheap. At first glance I thought they may be a good company.

But... we have anecdotal stories here, including someone who claimed their supplements were 'goopy', one supposedly new supplement arrived open, and someone who claimed debris was in one of their capsules. I have read negative comments about Vitacost service on the web (and here too), including somewhat shady 'offers' (such as offers for magazine and such at the end of each order), where they received unauthorized credit card charges. As for quality I am not sure if they are gmp certified now, but previously they weren't. And they sourced a lot of supplements from China, without stating what sort of quality control/testing was done (again, this may no longer be true... not sure). And finally, they have failed at least one or more Consumer Labs tests. I think one was for lead in their curcumin.

Taken as a whole, I see no reason to do business with them with a past history like that. I am not saying other companies are perfect either, but I'd like to minimize risks if possible.

Edited by nameless, 11 September 2009 - 04:44 PM.

[Blue]

I would really like to know the evidence against Vitacost/NSI besides anecdotal stories. They are inexpensive but this does not necessarily mean lacking quality. One cost saving is cutting out the middleman IHerb. Unlike most companies they do not include various extra components in useless concentrations to confuse and mislead customers which is a good sign for me. Some of their multis look like they, while imperfect, may be the best I have seen for recommending to people who do not want supplements to be a time-consuming hobby. Their own manufacturing and quality description, which they as a large company will be careful to not be inaccurate, is not as impressive as Now Foods but far better than the almost non-existant (or non-existant!) descriptions of manufacturing and quality procedures from supposedly high-quality suppliers such as LEF and Jarrow:
http://www.vitacost....y/Manufacturing

One thing about Vitacost/NSI (for me), is when I first ran across them I really wanted to like them. They have a ton of things and are pretty cheap. At first glance I thought they may be a good company.

But... we have anecdotal stories here, including someone who claimed their supplements were 'goopy', one supposedly new supplement arrived open, and someone who claimed debris was in one of their capsules. I have read negative comments about Vitacost service on the web (and here too), including somewhat shady 'offers' (such as offers for magazine and such at the end of each order), where they received unauthorized credit card charges. As for quality I am not sure if they are gmp certified now, but previously they weren't. And they sourced a lot of supplements from China, without stating what sort of quality control/testing was done (again, this may no longer be true... not sure). And finally, they have failed at least one or more Consumer Labs tests. I think one was for lead in their curcumin.

Taken as a whole, I see no reason to do business with them with a past history like that. I am not saying other companies are perfect either, but I'd like to minimize risks if possible.

I have heard many of these often strange complaints from you before but not seen any sources. Could you link to the thread or other sources where these complaints where stated? Their own product line, NSI from Nutraceutical Life Sciences, is GMP Certified by NSF:
http://www.nsf.org/C...MP/Listings.asp?

While the brand you usually mention as the alternative, Swanson, is not GMP certified by either NSF or NPA.

[nameless]

The problems with NSI or Vitacost is mentioned in several threads in these forums here -- just do a search. They'll pop up.

Swanson's has a big GMP logo on their website, so I assumed that meant they follow GMP practices. They also state they also have their own quality control specialists and also send for 3rd party analysis (if that means anything). They have a pretty good return policy too.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily recommend a Swanson branded supplement as my first choice (prices being equal), over certain other companies (Now, Jarrow, AOR). But I consider them better than NSI.

[Blue]

All companies must now follow FDA GMP. Except those with less than 21 employees which have a grace period until June next year and then they also must follow FDA GMP. In addition there are voluntary third-party (from NSF or NPA) GMP certifications:
http://www.nowfoods....les/M101282.htm

Swanson's claim is rather suspect since they do not name the third-party who is supposed to have certified them. The graphic GMP Seal does not either name the supposedly certifying organization which is... unusual. It is not exactly clear from the text that they are still certified. Maybe they were earlier but have lost it now? The Seal is their own misleading invention merely showing that they are regulated by the FDA as everyone else? Looks strange to me.
http://www.swansonvi..._control.html#1

I would take a company listed as GMP certified by the NSF or NPA over one which is not any day. Only these organizations can judge quality systematically.

I will see if I can find the anecdotal complaints regarding Vitacost.

Between Now (NPA GMP) and NSI I would take Now regarding quality. Not sure how Canadian (AOR) regulation and real-world control compares to GMP certification. Jarrow Industries is NSF GMP and have a nice quality description although inferior to NOW's. It seems likely that Jarrow Formulas manufacture their products there (but this is not stated or that all Jarrow Formulas products are from this source). But NSI is more inexpensive (again, not necessarily bad since they cut out IHerb) and they have some very interesting multis that are not available elsewhere.

[nameless]

Hmm... interesting. Now I'm curious. I sent an email off to Swanson's asking if they are either NSF or NPA certified. Let's see what they respond with.

[nameless]

This is the response I received today:

Thank you for contacting us regarding quality.

Swanson Health Products is absolutely committed to maintaining the highest quality products and the utmost integrity in business practices. Since 2001 we have maintained an "A" rating on Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP's) recognized and approved by third party auditors including the Natural Products Association.

Third-party-certified GMPs represent the highest quality manufacturing and commercial conduct. Under our GMP program, we are evaluated regularly by certified, independent third-party inspectors trained to ensure complaince with federal requirements. This means that the results of GMP reviews are not subject to industry or company bias and are true representations of quality practices. The process is exhaustive, with every aspect of operations being duly investigated. When you see the GMP seal, you know you're getting the best possible products produced with care under strict conditions approved by third-party experts.

They also have a quality control brochure on their site.

And after reading their response and brochure, I still have no idea if they are currently GMP certified or not, or by whom. I am not sure who these third-party inspectors are affiliated with. Are they NPA certified now, or were they in the past?

One thing I did notice, which sort of concerns me about the whole GMP thing and how useful it really is, is when they state that they are inspected very two years. I assumed it was more often than that.

Edited by nameless, 15 September 2009 - 05:42 PM.

[Blue]

Swanson is currently not listed by NPA or NPF. See links here:
http://www.imminst.o...ies-t32550.html

I think a careful examination every two-years is ok. If done properly if can be quite time-consuming and complicated. The alternative is the FDA which is primarily concerned with pharmaceuticals, secondarily with investigating supplement complaints and obvious supplement fraud, and only then with whatever resources is left over does some random controls of a few companies regarding following some aspects of general regulations.

[Blue]

Regarding Vitacost/NSI I have read the threads about vitacost.

As I have said before, I like that they do not try to mislead customers, as most supplement companies do, by adding on in their products many seemingly impressive components in useless quantites.

One complaint was that they are supposed to use some material from China. That is very likely true because it is likely impossible today to avoid Chinese manufacturers for certain substances. IHerb in 2007 asked their suppliers to answer customer worry regarding among other things Chinese materials. It is pretty clear that most (or all) use Chinese ingredients even if they do not say so openly and instead talks about that the important thing is checking the product quality regardless of origin.
http://www.iherb.com/info/quality

Regarding product quality there may have problems in past, difficult to say from the one or two complaints posted here, but they are now GMP certified. They according to their manufacturing page have also a new manufacturing facility which was likely built to pass GMP.

There are more complaints regarding customer service, labeling, and shipping although others have had no problems. One complaint is that you do not know if an item is backordered or not if you do not call them. But they now list availability on their webpage so unclear if this still applies.

Very troubling is that they at least in the past passed on the credit card information, if you do not read and make some incorrect answers when buying the first time, to another shopping company which well then make an automatic monthly membership charges which may not be detected for a long time. Certainly a bad general sign.
http://www.ripoffrep...h/vitacost.aspx

On the plus side is that they have made an IPO (maybe in part to pay for the new manufacturing facility) and will be listed on NASDAQ. This means much better financial regulation and oversight. As a result you can also get quite a lot of information like this "There is one black mark against the company that investors should keep in mind: Founder Wayne Gorsek resigned as CEO in January, apparently so that the company could go public. In the mid-1990s, Gorsek ran a public relations firm that "participated in a fraudulent touting scheme to artificially inflate the prices," according to the Securities and Exchange Commission. Gorsek is staying on as a consultant with a $9,000-a-month salary. "
http://www.thestreet...-portfolio.html

So its looks like they may have had or has had problems in the past. Although also signs they are improving: GMP certification, new manufacturing facility, dubious CEO out, NASDAQ listing. Maybe one should wait some time and see how they do in recent consumerlab tests and recent shopping site rankings/reviews. They sell a lot so reviews should appear regularly on various review/ranking sites.

[Blue]

"Our active customer base, which we define as customers who have purchased from us within the last 12 months, has steadily increased from approximately 270,000 at the end of 2005 to approximately 957,000 as of June 30, 2009. For the first and second quarters of 2009, our per-customer acquisition cost, determined by dividing our acquisition-related marketing costs by the number of gross new customers, was $10.16. On average, our customers make purchases from us two to three times a year, and over the last twelve quarters, our average order value has ranged between $72 and $77. Our 2008 customer surveys reveal that over 95% of respondents are likely to reorder, citing as key factors our product selection and quality, competitive prices and speed and accuracy of shipment. During the first and second quarters of 2009, approximately 49% of our orders were placed by repeat customers. We began operations in 1994 as a catalog retailer of third-party vitamins and supplements under the name Nature's Wealth Company. In 1999, we launched Vitacost.com and introduced our proprietary vitamins and supplements under our NSI brand. In 2000, we began operations under the name Vitacost.com, Inc. During 2008, we began manufacturing certain proprietary products in-house and currently have the capacity to produce in excess of one billion tablets and capsules annually. Since our inception, we have shipped over ten million orders to our customers."

"We rely upon third-party suppliers for certain ingredients and raw materials. The principal ingredients or raw materials required in our operations are vitamins, minerals, herbs and packaging components. We purchase these materialsfrom third-party suppliers located in the U.S., Japan, China, India,Italy, Spain, France and Germany.Furthermore, although we manufacture most of our proprietary productsin-house, we engage third-party manufacturers to produce ourproprietary products that are in the form of soft-gels, liquids andpowders. As of August 31, 2009, four third-party manufacturers provided approximately 13% of our finished soft-gel, liquid and powder products. No single third-party manufacturer, however, manufactured more than 6% of such products."

"In April 2008, we completed construction of our manufacturing facility located in Lexington, North Carolina. We currently manufacture approximately 72% of our proprietary products at this facility. In the future, we expect to manufacture substantially all of our proprietary products. Prior to commencing manufacturing at this facility, we relied upon third-party manufacturers to manufacture all of our products. Therefore, prior to April 2008, we had no experience in manufacturing."

Net sales increased from $30 to $144 millions from 2004 to 2008. Operating income was 1.2% of net sales in 2008.

http://www.secinfo.c....s5xV9.htm#dyk5

Edited by Blue, 16 September 2009 - 10:17 AM.