22 replies to this topic

[randolfe]

There seems to be some new twists and turns in the political fortunes of Alcor. I posted the following on Cryonet's daily feed. It speaks for itself.

Every movement has to discover certain verities on its own. I happened to share my own personal experiences in the homosexual civil rights movement with another Immortalist a few weeks ago.

I told him that politicians tell people what those people want to hear. However, in the final analysis, they vote the way they basically believe or believe to be the 51%plus opinion.

I was involved with the Gay Activists Alliance in NYC in the late 1960s and early 1970s. We had a non-discrimination bill in the City Council that said you couldn't fire someone for being gay if they were doing their job correctly otherwise.

The young naive gay activists went to NYC Hall. They got 26 members of the NYC Council to pledge that if "they got the bill out of committee" that they would support it.

Being naive, they believed the politicians. To the politician's surprise, by shutting down dances on a Saturday night and leading over a thousand rather non-political homosexuals to demonstrate outside the committee chairman's apartment house--complete with feigned attempts to crash Police lines which sent waves of horror through the councilman's neighbors--we managed to bring the bill to outlaw employment discrimination to a vote.

(Regarding the feigned attempts at crashing through police lines, after you've been around a few years, you realize that demonstrations are held to create "movement" and the threat of physical conflict always gets the media's attention. It is a political game. You act angry and push at the Police Line but you don't really try to break through because they would cave in your head. However, on the nightly news, it looks like social political tumult.)

Well, with the bill out of committee and with 26 committed votes when only 21 were needed, we all went down to NYC Hall to celebrate the victory of the passing of this historic legislation.

Well, when push came to shove, the bill got only 18 votes and was defeated at that time. I still remember standing in the rain outside NYC Hall and watching the fat well-paid bureaucrats laugh as we flew into a rage and went out and sat down in traffic to block Brooklyn Bridge.

But that is what you come to understand when you are pushing politicians on an unpopular issue (or an issue they think is unpopular), they make deals, make promises and then simply stab you in the back.

Wake up, supporters of cryonics, the fight has just begun. These so-called "men of God" want to shut down those facilities that offer an alternative to rebirth in Heaven through Christ.

Cryonics is blasphemy. Cryonics is blasphemy because it offers a real alternative to current religious beliefs. Cryonics is a belief based on "faith", (still have you with me here I suspect). Cryonics is a religion. (Just lost most of you)

Until, you can equate your beliefs and "faith" in cryonics as being equal to the myths of contemporary religion, until you can equate your "burial rituals" with those of other religions like the Muslims washing the dead, the Jews burying before sunset, the Roman Catholics disapproving of cremation, etc., and lay claim to your rightful rights to religious freedom,. you are doomed to be the scapegoats of politicians and other moral scum that tars you as "kooks who deny the dead their human dignity by denying them proper burial".

It is as simple as that. You believe in one type of burial, cryonic suspension, and they believe in another--underground or cremation, etc.

Until you place your flag into the ground and declare your rights to religious freedom, you are just what those good recognized religionists call you: "Lost souls!"

My faith in science is superior (or at least equal to) their faith in mythology. The United States of America was founded on one principle: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!

We have the same right to our beliefs, our religious freedom, as others do. We must demand our right to practice that which we believe in. We must not be intimidated into being considered "an ideology" or "a cult". We are people of faith and we will fight for what we believe in.

If we do not, then the traditional religionists will destroy our institutions, spill liquid nitrogen on Arizona sand, cremate or bury those who have placed their faith in us to keep them in a state for possible future revival!

When true believers face the choice of fighting for what they believe in or retreating before intimidating enemies, history shows that those who dare to stand and fight are the only ones who manage to survive.

Our values, our beliefs are second to no others. We know that we have the most likely key to rebirth into another life. We have to fight for the our own lives, for those who have entrusted their lives to our care.

We have no choice but to recognize we fit into that category many of us have resisted entering/recognizing. We are a new religion of hope, of belief in science, of belief that a human being can rescue his/herself from oblivion with our combined intelligence and perseverance.

A Holy War has been declared against us. We must label it as such. Americans don't approve of Holy Wars. We can only survive by fighting this issue on its true battleground--the battleground of religious freedom and practice.

Cloningly yours,
For eternal life,

Randolfe (Randy) Wicker


Founder, Clone Rights United Front, www.clonerights.com
Spokesperson, Reproductive Cloning Network, www.reproductivecloning.net
Advisor, The Immortality Institute, www.imminst.org
email: rhwicker@optonline.net
phone: 201-656-3280

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks Randy,

Interesting and compelling argument.

[Lazarus Long]

All good points Randolfe but it is worse than that, the Cryonics movement has been flanked by corruption in a totally separate but entirely related field, cadavers for academic research.

The scandal that is brewing in this sector has effectively given the impetus for State and Federal government to politicize the process with a vengeance and they will not lose any time at introducing a new wave of legislation. MY best recommendation to ALCOR, Bill O'Rights and others is that if you want to survive this onslaught politically then two responses are critical; first prepare your own legislation swiftly and get ahead of the wave by engaging the process and second move or duplicate as much of your facilities off shore as soon as possible.

Combine this with a serious lobbying effort that sadly will require many of you to leave your Libertarian preferences behind in order to adapt to this process or succumb to it. It is a sad coincidence that the scandal coming out of UCLA and the separate Army (ab)use of donated cadavers will blow back on Cryo but it is inevitable on top of the rising religious zealotry and the political season of the witch. Winter may be almost over but the snowballing has barely begun.

Lawsuit Alleges UCLA Sold Body Parts
Mon Mar 8, 6:08 PM ET
http://story.news.ya...ody_parts_probe

[thefirstimmortal]

MY best recommendation to ALCOR, Bill O'Rights and others is that if you want to survive this onslaught politically then two responses are critical; first prepare your own legislation swiftly and get ahead of the wave by engaging the process

Impractical, it's not like any of us are going to get our own bills passed

and second move or duplicate as much of your facilities off shore as soon as possible.

That's a great idea.

[thefirstimmortal]

Lawsuit Alleges UCLA Sold Body Parts   

As far as a legal issue, this is old news.

See UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT

DIANE M. WHALEY, et al.,
v.
COUNTY OF TUSCOLA through its governing body, Tuscola County Board of Commissioners;
ARMANDO HERRERA, Executive Director of Mid Regional Tissue Center

The plaintiffs brought these § 1983 actions claiming that the defendants violated their Fourteenth Amendment procedural due process rights by removing the corneas or eyeballs of their recently deceased relatives. The interesting question raised in this consolidated appeal is what relief the Constitution might provide when a state actor steals the eyes of a dead man. Specifically, we must decide whether Michigan law provides the next of kin with a constitutionally protected property interest in a deceased relative's body, including the eyes. The district court thought that it did not and dismissed the plaintiffs' claims. We disagree, REVERSE the court's decision, and REMAND for further proceedings.

[Lazarus Long]

I understand that some of this is now "old (legal) news" but what I am interested in is the finding of current corrupt practice as they have charged the person responsible for the UCLA program with felony infractions and fired him from his position. The scandal is having a significant ripple effect as the politicos are now talking it up as a "talking point" for public attention. As the issues percolate up to general awareness it is one they think they "can" legislate without getting in too deep. If you leave it up to them they will screw you guys even if not intentionally.

The legal precedent you bring up is old but the attention being paid by the media is right now and it overlaps the issues for CRYO because of just freezing the 'head', and that defaults to trafficking a body part.

[thefirstimmortal]

The scandal is having a significant ripple effect as the politicos are now talking it as a "talking point" for points.  As the issues percolate up to general awareness it is one they think they "can" legislate without getting in too deep.

The news you are bringing up is old but the attention being paid by the media is right now and it overlaps the issues for CRYO because of just freezing the 'head', that defaults to trafficking a body part.

After reflecting and giving your post a little deeper thought, I am more persuaded that your arguments hold more merit than I originally gave them.

[randolfe]

I made the mistake of writing a long detailed account of the Alcor debate only for it to be lost when I hit "submit".

So, here I will simply post a stastement by the new Transhumanist Church:


My Groups | transhumanistchurch-announce Main Page



Alcor, and its supporters, made a valiant attempt to derail the
misguided legislation attempting to outlaw cryonics in Arizona. I
know that they will continue to fight, exploring all avenues
available to them, to defend our rights. But it is now time for the
rest of us to step forward. I call on all religious organizations
who hold cryonics to be a fundamental part of their faith to come
together and fight this measure!

For too long we have feared to embrace the idea of religion. Many
think that doing so would weaken the scientific justification for
cryonics. But why should religion and science be separate?
Religion is a code of ethics, a way to live our lives. It is a road
map we can use when charting out our future. There is nothing
fundamentally wrong with using science, rationality, and reason to
build the fundamental groundwork of our faith. The two are
compatible, and both have their place in the fight for cryonics.

This country was founded (or was supposed to be) on the ideals of
respecting the religious rights of others. The Arizona Legislature
has no right to tell me what I can and can't do with my body after I
am declared legally dead! The practice of cryonics is not hurting
or infringing upon the rights of others. But that is exactly what
the Arizona Legislature is doing with this legislation. Why should
they be allowed to bury their body in a box, or burn it up to a
cinder and store in a jar, and I can't have mine stored in a vat of
liquid nitrogen? If that right is denied to us, what's next?

The only way, I fear, to turn this situation around and preserve our
rights once and for all is to drag the state legislaters out into
the light and show them for what they are; close minded individuals
repressing the religious rights of others. Their actions threaten
to damn my soul to oblivion forever. This law dictates to me what I
can and can't believe, and that's something I am not going to sit
still for!

So once again, I call on all the religious leaders and their
members, to turn this fight into what it really is for us; the right
to practice our religions. We cannot remain silent on this issue
any longer!

I pledge any and all support of myself and the Transhumanist Church
to fighting this attack on our beliefs. We will "Not Go Gentle
Into
That Good Night"!

Tripper McCarthy
President – Transhumanist Church
www.transhumanistchurch.org

[randolfe]

The transcript of the debate on regulation of cryonics can now be accessed at:

http://www.alcor.org...bate031104.html

It is well worth reading.

[Bruce Klein]

CryoNet Posting
From: "Paul Pagnato"
Subject: Rep. Stump/Government/Politicians
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:10:45 -0800

Re: Rep. Stump, government, politicians and our system,

I sincerely hope that this example will be a lesson to everyone in regards to ever believing politicians and government. I spent over 30 years in metro Washington, D.C. and know the facts. Please, once again, stay away from politicians unless you "own" them or they will destroy Cryonics because of the others that do "own" them. That's our system and it doesn't matter what you think or believe, that's the fact of this and every situation related to politicians and our big government. Don't run from it, go with it and don't cause loud noise and attention, or we are doomed.

Respectfully,
Paul & Rosemarie

[randolfe]

The issues raised by the scandals raised by the trafficing in body parts is very troubling.

It seems to me that this makes it necessary for cryonics to distinguish itself in some way from the "body parts debate". Of course, I would prefer to have cryonic suspension assume a "religious ritual" defense.

However, if that is unacceptable, then there should be some other way to keep cryonics from being the "innocent victim" of hit-and-run legislation aimed at stopping the trafficing in body parts.

I think this issue is greatly complicated by Alcor's practice of sometimes just preserving the head. CI doesn't do that. I personally might want the "head only option" if full body suspension was not possible. However, I think the practice of preserving just the head is a lot more looney than saying you have a set of beliefs that constritute basic belief and practice.

That said, I am still checkling at someone's comment during last night's chat that "growing a new body should be a lot easier than fixing up the old one". The best thing here is that so many people have a great sense of humor.

[darktr00per]

I don't understand why government is so hard on this issue. Seems to me that we would benefit by having a scientific board that reviews laws regarding such things.

[darktr00per]

They spend too much effort trying to protect us from ourselves.

[quadclops]

Randolfe:

Cryonics is blasphemy. Cryonics is blasphemy because it offers a real alternative to current religious beliefs. Cryonics is a belief based on "faith", (still have you with me here I suspect). Cryonics is a religion. (Just lost most of you)

Until, you can equate your beliefs and "faith" in cryonics as being equal to the myths of contemporary religion, until you can equate your "burial rituals" with those of other religions like the Muslims washing the dead, the Jews burying before sunset, the Roman Catholics disapproving of cremation, etc., and lay claim to your rightful rights to religious freedom,. you are doomed to be the scapegoats of politicians and other moral scum that tars you as "kooks who deny the dead their human dignity by denying them proper burial".

It is as simple as that. You believe in one type of burial, cryonic suspension, and they believe in another--underground or cremation, etc.

Until you place your flag into the ground and declare your rights to religious freedom, you are just what those good recognized religionists call you: "Lost souls!"

My faith in science is superior (or at least equal to) their faith in mythology. The United States of America was founded on one principle: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!

We have the same right to our beliefs, our religious freedom, as others do. We must demand our right to practice that which we believe in. We must not be intimidated into being considered "an ideology" or "a cult". We are people of faith and we will fight for what we believe in.

Randy, cryonics is not really a "faith" or "belief system". Faiths are based on unprovable revealed truths, cryonics is based on scientific facts extrapolated from cryogenics and cryobiology. Faiths give ironclad assurances and guarantees, and require unquestioning support from their adherents. Cryonics is completely speculative, and can provide no guarantees that it will succeed moreover, it requires nothing of it's supporters except a little financial planning and regularly updated personal information.

Sure, maybe it takes a little "faith" to hope that humanity won't wipe itself out, and that civilisation will continue to progress to the point where nanotech can revive the cryonaut, but even this is based on an understanding of what is physically possible, rather than a reliance on the intervention of some fairy tale entity in the sky.

I think that claiming cryonics is a religion could only work to the detriment of it's supporters, and make us look even kookier in the public eye.

[bgwowk]

That said, I am still checkling at someone's comment during last night's chat that "growing a new body should be a lot easier than fixing up the old one". The best thing here is that so many people have a great sense of humor.

Randy, you might consider how insurance companies treat automobiles past a certain threshold of damage. Or for that matter, computers, VCRs, and television sets these days. I can assure you that damage done by present cryonics practice to whole bodies is well past the "write off" threshold.

Growth of whole bodies, or selective regrowth of injured organs and limbs, is a proven technology in nature. Nanomachines that take apart ice molecule by molecule at cryogenic temperatures to try and identify biomolecules and cell debris in freeze-damaged tissue, while theoretically possible, are totally unlike anything ever seen in nature. Repairing frozen bodies (as distinct from vitrifified brains) is a *hard* problem. It can be done, but it's a far harder problem than replacement.

---BrianW

[kerr_avon]

Making cryonics into a religion might be a good strategic option since it takes the wind out of the sails of the bio-luddites and religious right types by using the same kind of argument they do but I have some concerns. For instance, most religion has the dubious "advantage" of being so far removed from any practical, scientific uses that it can be effectively separated from the practice of science entirely. Cryonics, on the other hand, actually has practical uses. Some have mentioned the idea of freezing organs. There is also a great advantage in being able to somehow "suspend" healthy people for long periods (whether through actual freezing or some sort of induced hibernation) for space travel. Many of the obstacles to the manned Mars mission have to do with things like bone loss in zero-g and protection from radiation caused by solar flares. Being able pop open a can of suspended astronauts as the ship nears Mars would probably solve these problems.

Let's say federal research dollars are spent on a project to allow astronauts to hibernate in space or to preserve entire organs indefinitely. The federal government looks for a private contractor to work on the project. The best one they can find though is "The Eternal Life Church of Cryonics" or some such. Now, what to make of this. Do we have a separation of church and state issue? Obviously, actual cryonics research would need to be kept separate from the "church" aspects of actually freezing/suspending people. But how rigorously can this separation be maintained? Even if the companies that do the science were different from the ones that actually freeze people there is still the argument to be made that any government monies that went to the research companies could be construed as indirect support for a religion. Imagine if the Scientologists or the "Creation Scientists" were to set up a "research" company to investigate their pseudo-sciences. People would be justified in attacking any government support for these companies as indirect backing of a religion.

You libertarians might just say that you shouldn't want government money anyway. If the money is out there though it seems a shame to pass it up so as to maintain a "religion" status that is free of C & S problems. Imagine if cancer research was viewed in the same negative light that cryonics is today. Imagine if the only way to pursue it without being hassled and legislated against was to declare yourself a "church" and say that your practices were religious rituals. Frankly a lot of lifesaving treatments would not get funding.

I can imagine that research companies receiving government funding could be accused of engaging in religion while calling it science. The pure "church" cryonicists could have their tax-emempt status attacked for making use of technologies funded by the government. Now I don't know if these are valid legal arguments or not but keep in mind also that these groups, the RR especially, are hugely wealthy and the cryonics movement is not. Ultimately, even if the cryonicists might win in court, they would go bankrupt and this could be disastrous for anyone they were actually maintaining in stasis (pull the plug time).

There is also the need to realize that even if I'm wrong and the religious status of cryonics is not problematical for C & S reasons there is the possibility that it still might be a hell of a fight. What comes to mind is certain Native American tribes and Rastafarians who use peyote or marijuana in their rituals. These groups still have to fight awfully hard to secure these rights. Basically, religious freedom in this country only goes so far it seems. If your favored ritual is bland and unoffensive it will be tolerated. If it challenges people's long held beliefs or offends their moralistic self-righteousness, like lighting up a joint for Ja [lol], they will still be trying to stop you any way they can. What I'm asking is - is the protection afforded by the religious status really as much as we think?

Frankly, I don't know what to make of all this. It often seems that, in the US, cryonics may become increasingly difficult if the current religious fervor keeps building. I think the posters who talked about geographic diversification were onto something. That has transportation and timing issues, unfortunately. Personally, I would like to see the reverse kind of geographic diversity, as in having a cryo-lab on every corner like drug stores are now!

[randolfe]

I've been away and busy for the past few weeks. I'm just catching up on postings from the last several weeks.

Quadclops argues that "faiths are based on unprovable revealed truths, cryonics is based on scientific facts". To me, "faith" and "belief" in both religion and cryonics rests on a judgement call. There has been no proof that long term cryonic suspension of any warm blooded animal has been accomplished, just as there has been no proof of the existence of an afterlife.

"Faith" doesn't require "unprovable revealed truths". "Faith" takes over when that which is proven ends. Yes, I believe cryonics offers the only possibly-viable passport to an extended life in a future time. That's just a judgement call I make by choosing to place my "faith" in science rather than in the more popular Jesus-Heaven-or-Hell mythology.

bqwowk argues that a body reaches a point that, like cars and computers and TVs, the ravishes of age plus the damage done by today's cryonic practices make it more reasonable to simply replace the old with the new. He might be correct in that regard. That is one reason that I admit I would be willing to settle for the simple survival of my genotype through cloning.

This annoys most cryonicists. However, I simply see that choice as being willing to settle for the possible rather than have "blind faith" as many do that cryonics is going to make survival of their entgire essential selves possible.

I dodge questions about my religion while debating cloning and claim to be a "lapsed Catholic". Here, I must admit I have limited "faith" in the possibilities offerred by cryonics. I guess that makes me a "lapsed cryonicist".

[bacopa]

Good arguments Randy I tend to believe having faith in Cryonics is an ok thing to say, it's neither untrue nor offensive. It is a faith becuase it is based on at this time on an "unprovable revealed truth." So having a transhumanist church would also mimic this idea of placing faith in science, sounds ok to me!

In simple terms it does seem like a war we're going to have to fight versus the politicos and a damn nasty one at that! Maybe putting Cryonics in a strictly science realm could be justified if only because fighing on religious freedoms grounds could prove disasterous. There is no easy answer, and people seem to have more faith in science, so now I'm contradicting my intital statement, maybe looking at Cryonics as a religion is dangerous...not sure.

[randolfe]

I think the ultimate argument for making cryonics a religion is that places it in the proper framework to make society accept its practices.

This country is based on freedom of religion. It is easier to argue that we have a right to religious freedom and practice rather than, say, the "civil right' to do with our body as we desire after we die.

The latter argument would just be more difficult to make. Since we are dealing with unprovable assertions, religious freedom is the best route to go.

[bgwowk]

Since we are dealing with unprovable assertions, religious freedom is the best route to go.

While there are lots of people interested in cryonics that make unprovable assertions, there are no unprovable assertions in cryonics itself. Cryonics is no more religious than the U.S. Air Force funding Robert Forward's antimatter propulsion research 20 years ago despite the enormous technological holes that remained to be filled in. The basic science was and is sound.

Going the religious freedom route would be an act of legal desperation. It's a potentially powerful route given the American cultural bias against intefering with religion, but a dangerous route to take. Once you go down it, you may never get back for a long, long time.

I applaud those developing legal arguments around religious protections, should they ever be necessary. But I sincerely hope they are never needed. Even in the darkest moments of cryonics history (i.e. Dora Kent crisis), it was ultimately the testimony of scientists that carried the day.

---BrianW

[kerr_avon]

I think the ultimate argument for making cryonics a religion is that places it in the proper framework to make society accept its practices.

This country is based on freedom of religion.  It is easier to argue that we have a right to religious freedom and practice rather than, say, the "civil right' to do with our body as we desire after we die.

The latter argument would just be more difficult to make.  Since we are dealing with unprovable assertions, religious freedom is the best route to go.

You are probably right about this but I feel that it is incumbent on society and not us to explain exactly why and how someone's frozen corpse in a tank of liquid nitrogen is harming anybody. The physical hazard would seem no greater than any other process that involves cold temperatures or dead bodies (graveyards, scientific labs). Of course, as we know, it's people's metaphysical illusions and not their physical safety that is being endangered here.

[randolfe]

In my files is a print out from the www.summun.org site. These people propose mummification with future cloning in mind. This is impossible since you need living cells.

However, (hope I am not repeating myself here) they claim that taking out an insurance policy to pay for your mummification would end up being a tax-free benefit because the IRS has deemed any group handling burials to be a religious organization.

I know cryonics don't like the idea that they are dealing with above-ground "burials" but if the above claim is true, it certainly lays the groundwork for claiming that any cryonics organization is a "religious organization".

For that matter, what is the difference (except for science) between those who expect to be raised from the dead by Jesus and cryonauts who expect to be revived by fellow cryonicists in the future.

"At this time" both claims are simply based on "faith".

[bgwowk]

For that matter, what is the difference (except for science) between those who expect to be raised from the dead by Jesus and cryonauts who expect to be revived by fellow cryonicists in the future.

You already gave the answer: Science.

"At this time" both claims are simply based on "faith".

Not at all. One is based on faith that physical law (as we know it) will be superceeded, while the other is a possibility that fits within known physical law. It's like the difference between prayer therapy and chemotherapy. One assumes supernatural intervention, while the other assumes cytotoxic agents and DNA interact in the usual observed way. Both interventions share an uncertain outcome, but the anticipated mechanism of success when it occurs is very different in each case.

A desperate gambit to survive based on natural means is just that: a desperate gambit. People don't ordinary call such actions "acts of faith" unless supernatural intervention is requested or expected as part of the action.

---BrianW