32 replies to this topic

[sunshinefrost]

Hello,

There are 2 theories that seems contradictory. the second one is scarry. Here are the 2 theory:

1ST THEORY- i found this link ( http://thebrain.mcgi...i_07_m_tra.html ) on this forum and it shows that the when the magnesium is removed from the NMDA receptor, a massive amount of calcium enters the cell and helps form more NMDA and AMPA recptor on the post synaptic neurone. Now i like this theory because it means my neaurones would grow in some kind of way.

2ND THEORY- this is scarry ... this link from wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate ) states that whenever there are too much glutamate neurotransmitters surrounding the cell, This process causes calcium ions to enter cells via NMDA receptor channels, leading to neuronal damage and eventual cell death, and is called excitotoxicity. The mechanisms of cell death include Damage to mitochondria from excessively high intracellular Ca2+ . Glu/Ca2+-mediated promotion of transcription factors for pro-apoptotic genes, or downregulation of transcription factors for anti-apoptotic genes. Excitotoxicity due to glutamate occurs as part of the ischemic cascade and is associated with stroke and diseases like amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, lathyrism, autism, some forms of mental retardation and Alzheimer's disease.

Now i'm taking Aniracetam right now and I was told it modulates the AMPA and NMDA receptors through high stimulation (glatamate release). I NEED to be calmed down by someone who understands this better than me.... i REALLY hope someone can correct me on this because from what i understand, my neurones are going suicidal right now.

PLEASE HELP !!!

Edited by sunshinefrost, 10 September 2009 - 06:25 PM.

[sunshinefrost]

I guess i'm confused between Longterm potentiation (LTP) and long term depression (LTD) ... i'm scared that aniracetam will cause LTD.

if someone knows what i'm talking about please enlight me

thanks

[Johann]

I guess i'm confused between Longterm potentiation (LTP) and long term depression (LTD) ... i'm scared that aniracetam will cause LTD.

if someone knows what i'm talking about please enlight me

thanks

Hey I just ordered one hundred grams of Aniracetam. I really hope what that it does not cause any type of excitotoxin damage.  I'm already very sensitive to MSG and Aspartame.  

[Galantamine]

Ca2+ entry into the neuron is a requisit for memory formation and brain function in general (docking of synaptic vesicles, exc).

Referencing MSG: glutamates BBB influx from the plasma is highly regulated and not capable of producing excitatory-induced damage in a normal human.

Don't believe everything you read.

[Galantamine]

Hey I just ordered one hundred grams of Aniracetam. I really hope what that it does not cause any type of excitotoxin damage. I'm already very sensitive to MSG and Aspartame.

Aniracetam has been studied extensively in the model of traumatic brain injury and is quite effecient at blocking excitotoxic damage to the neuron.

[sunshinefrost]

thanks IRISH MD for your comments.... after reading about 300 abstracts i'm pretty confident about the benefits of the nootropic aniracetam. to convince myself i had to learn about ampa and nmda receptors, g proteine, cAMP, calcium channels, potentiation, LTD, LTP, upregulation, deregulation, ionotropic receptors, amplitude impulse, allosteric modulation, ligands, second messengers, excitatoryand inhibitory, desensitization, kinetics, , phosphorilation, glutamic acid, agonists, enzimes, and more...

either paranoiia or aniracetam made me read all of this but i'm reliefed .... also relief to know that aniracetam does not increase the neurotransmitters... it increases the time the ampa receptor stays active or opened, which slows the depreciation.

anyways, the only question left is: wich part of the brain are not protected by the BBB ?

[Johann]

I'm laying off of it for a few days and may not take it again.  

The first two days that I took some, not sure how much, little baby sized teaspoon, I felt nothing.

Then yesterday, my 3rd day on it, I took double the usual dosage and all I can say is that it felt

like a Nyquil hangover.  It definitely has anticholinergic aspects and wow even this morning I still feel stupid.  I went to my Microbiology class yesterday and was just in a dumb trance.  And all day yesterday all I could do to get out of the house.  Couldn't remember squat.  Where's my keys?  Where's my wallet?  Left a CD on top of the car, it blew off and I got to see it fly off in the rearview.  I turned around to go get it but right but instead got to see a big SUV run over it.  All day left and right I was forgetting little things and YES I supplemented with DMAE.  I KNOW ITS NOT ALPHA-GPC OR CDP CHOLINE BUT IT SHOULD BE JUST AS GOOD. 

Its alright because I have some Galantamine coming which I ordered yesterday. 




If you want to know what alzheimers or senile dementia feels like, take some Aniracetam.  

[Vultures]

It's possbile DMAE is not really cholinergic, and may even be anticholinergic, and it's stimulating properties have other origins. Check this
http://www.herculesm...avid-Tolson.asp
I'll have stopped taking noopropics for a while, ani+cdp choline will be the next thing I try.

Edited by Vultures, 15 September 2009 - 01:28 PM.

[sunshinefrost]

I'm laying off of it for a few days and may not take it again.  

The first two days that I took some, not sure how much, little baby sized teaspoon, I felt nothing.

Then yesterday, my 3rd day on it, I took double the usual dosage and all I can say is that it felt

like a Nyquil hangover.  It definitely has anticholinergic aspects and wow even this morning I still feel stupid.  I went to my Microbiology class yesterday and was just in a dumb trance.  And all day yesterday all I could do to get out of the house.  Couldn't remember squat.  Where's my keys?  Where's my wallet?  Left a CD on top of the car, it blew off and I got to see it fly off in the rearview.  I turned around to go get it but right but instead got to see a big SUV run over it.  All day left and right I was forgetting little things and YES I supplemented with DMAE.  I KNOW ITS NOT ALPHA-GPC OR CDP CHOLINE BUT IT SHOULD BE JUST AS GOOD. 

Its alright because I have some Galantamine coming which I ordered yesterday. 




If you want to know what alzheimers or senile dementia feels like, take some Aniracetam.  

that's the way i feel also but only when i don't take it. When i wake up in the morning my head feels light and i have a hard time concentrating on anything. around noon, when i take it, it energises me again but I don't like the fact that you absolutely need it to stay focused.

Am i going to be able to stop taking ANI and still have this brain power or will i immediatly go back to normal ? if I had add i wouldn't mind taking it throughout the year but i'm wondering how long i should take this.

[Johann]

I know that there are some die hard fans of the racetams here but here is what I think:
It seems to work like a cousin to aspartame. I used to be addicted to diet coke before I knew of
its harmful effects. I would eat some peanuts for breakfast and chase it with ice cold diet coke and let me tell you, my brain was PERKED UP! But it was deceptive. The overstimulation of the neurons being fired repetitively like a light switch being turned off and on really fast was causing long term damage. The same thing goes for chinese food with lots of monosodium glutamate in it. IT feels good while eating, but later on that day there is a price to pay.

And I don't think the fault has anything to do with DMAE. I've been taking that for 6 years off and on and don't notice any dumb effects from it. I do notice that too much will make me a bit too alert and all but I don't take it every day.

Aniracetam is a "dumb drug."

[Johann]

One other thing about Aniracetam is that it does provide a temporary boost but it doesn't
last long and the boomerang effect of dumbness far outweighs the lift.

To put it another way, yes it is a nootropic in that while it is active in the body it is doing something
powerful. But unlike other noots, like say ALCAR, it doesn't seem to be doing beneficial things later on.

[Vultures]

Johann, what dosage of ani did you use? The problem with DMAE is that it may not provide you with choline you need to compensate would be anticholinergic effects of ani.

[Johann]

Johann, what dosage of ani did you use? The problem with DMAE is that it may not provide you with choline you need to compensate would be anticholinergic effects of ani.

The first two days, I would guess approximately 600 mg and then the 3rd a good 1200 - 1300 mg. I did eat some
hard boiled eggs this morning (2) and the choline made me feel a tiny bit better.

[golden1]

First couple of times I took aniracetam it gave me brain fog, then I started taking choline bitartrate and instantly it stopped having negative effects.
centrophenoxine(which afaik is turned into dmae) didn't seem to help!

aniracetam is my favorite -racetam by far

[Johann]

First couple of times I took aniracetam it gave me brain fog, then I started taking choline bitartrate and instantly it stopped having negative effects.
centrophenoxine(which afaik is turned into dmae) didn't seem to help!

aniracetam is my favorite -racetam by far

How much choline bitartrate did you take and was it taken at the same time w/ Ani?  With food or empty stomach?

[golden1]

First couple of times I took aniracetam it gave me brain fog, then I started taking choline bitartrate and instantly it stopped having negative effects.
centrophenoxine(which afaik is turned into dmae) didn't seem to help!

aniracetam is my favorite -racetam by far

How much choline bitartrate did you take and was it taken at the same time w/ Ani?  With food or empty stomach?

I don't own a scale, but I didn't take a lot(too much made me smell like fish. not fun at all haha).
I'd say like 500mg or less.. after the first few times taking the choline I found out I didn't need to take it every day, just once in a while(2-4 times a week)
The first time I took it after aniracetam and it cleared up the brain fog, but I don't remember how long it took to work(maybe an hour or so). I usually take it before or at the same time now.
between meals is when I usually take everything, but I'm not sure if it makes a difference.


before aniracetam made me depressed and sleepy, my eyes tired, and decreased my motivation. basically all I wanted to do/could do was sleep.
now it's quite the opposite.

a multivitamin, choline bitartrate, and aniracetam are all I take daily and I can tell a huge difference.

[Johann]

I just ordered some choline bitartrate and will see what happens. I only wish I had known this about DMAE or
I wouldn't have wasted the $ buying another big bottle of it.

What is DMAE good for?

[sunshinefrost]

Johann, i felt the "dumb drug effect" as well and i too was pissed off about it. i don't believe it has anything to do with toxicity anymore , i believe its because of choline supplementation. a Day on Ani without a huge choline supplementation seems to deplete acetylcholine (don't understand why by the way) and that's when the clarity of mind goes off.... that's when you feel stupid or sleepy.

Like today for example... when i woke up i felt light headed and had problems concentrating... i took a source of choline (phosphatidylcholine (5 pills)) and the fog went away.... note that i did not have to take any aniracetam. that means that using only aniracetams depletes you of choline....

Can someone explain why Ampa and NMDA (glutamic system) stimulation affects the cholinergic system ?

[Johann]

Johann, i felt the "dumb drug effect" as well and i too was pissed off about it. i don't believe it has anything to do with toxicity anymore , i believe its because of choline supplementation. a Day on Ani without a huge choline supplementation seems to deplete acetylcholine (don't understand why by the way) and that's when the clarity of mind goes off.... that's when you feel stupid or sleepy.

Like today for example... when i woke up i felt light headed and had problems concentrating... i took a source of choline (phosphatidylcholine (5 pills)) and the fog went away.... note that i did not have to take any aniracetam. that means that using only aniracetams depletes you of choline....

Can someone explain why Ampa and NMDA (glutamic system) stimulation affects the cholinergic system ?

I'm coming to the same conclusion.  I'm still curious though why DMAE doesn't provide choline.  All these years I thought that it did.  

I feel 'back to normal' today as I ate some eggs this morning and got the choline from that.  And I have noticed that the facts I'm studying for Microbiology are sticking in my memory.  I will try Aniracetam again in a couple of days maybe even tomorrow as I feel a craving for it now.  

[Galantamine]

I know that there are some die hard fans of the racetams here but here is what I think:
It seems to work like a cousin to aspartame. I used to be addicted to diet coke before I knew of
its harmful effects. I would eat some peanuts for breakfast and chase it with ice cold diet coke and let me tell you, my brain was PERKED UP! But it was deceptive. The overstimulation of the neurons being fired repetitively like a light switch being turned off and on really fast was causing long term damage. The same thing goes for chinese food with lots of monosodium glutamate in it. IT feels good while eating, but later on that day there is a price to pay.

And I don't think the fault has anything to do with DMAE. I've been taking that for 6 years off and on and don't notice any dumb effects from it. I do notice that too much will make me a bit too alert and all but I don't take it every day.

Aniracetam is a "dumb drug."

^Most misinformed post I've ever read.

[Vultures]

I'm coming to the same conclusion.  I'm still curious though why DMAE doesn't provide choline.  All these years I thought that it did.

Check Tolson's article. Apparently it's not converted to choline after all, and might compete with it for transport. But it definitely has stimulating effects... At least on me. Perhaps someone more informed than me can explain this...

Edited by Vultures, 15 September 2009 - 11:12 PM.

[Galantamine]

One other thing about Aniracetam is that it does provide a temporary boost but it doesn't
last long and the boomerang effect of dumbness far outweighs the lift.

To put it another way, yes it is a nootropic in that while it is active in the body it is doing something
powerful. But unlike other noots, like say ALCAR, it doesn't seem to be doing beneficial things later on.

Aniracetams half life is about 2 hours.

The acute effects of aniracetam (modulating excitatory receptors) may be causing some of the above effects, but its chronic effects (increased BDNF/synaptic plasticity via trkB receptors) is where the true efficacy of the drug resides.

The original manufacturer set the therapuetic range at about 60 days of continual use.

Please keep in mind that the modulation of excitatory pathways is glutaminergic, not cholinergic, so the co-supplementation of choline will not ameliorate these symptoms.

[Johann]

One other thing about Aniracetam is that it does provide a temporary boost but it doesn't
last long and the boomerang effect of dumbness far outweighs the lift.

To put it another way, yes it is a nootropic in that while it is active in the body it is doing something
powerful. But unlike other noots, like say ALCAR, it doesn't seem to be doing beneficial things later on.

Aniracetams half life is about 2 hours.

The acute effects of aniracetam (modulating excitatory receptors) may be causing some of the above effects, but its chronic effects (increased BDNF/synaptic plasticity via trkB receptors) is where the true efficacy of the drug resides.

The original manufacturer set the therapuetic range at about 60 days of continual use.

Please keep in mind that the modulation of excitatory pathways is glutaminergic, not cholinergic, so the co-supplementation of choline will not ameliorate these symptoms.

What about using L-glutamine?  Will that ameliorate the symptoms?

[sunshinefrost]

One other thing about Aniracetam is that it does provide a temporary boost but it doesn't
last long and the boomerang effect of dumbness far outweighs the lift.

To put it another way, yes it is a nootropic in that while it is active in the body it is doing something
powerful. But unlike other noots, like say ALCAR, it doesn't seem to be doing beneficial things later on.

Aniracetams half life is about 2 hours.

The acute effects of aniracetam (modulating excitatory receptors) may be causing some of the above effects, but its chronic effects (increased BDNF/synaptic plasticity via trkB receptors) is where the true efficacy of the drug resides

.

thanks for this info! Are TrkB receptors the only ones that will be affected or will the AMPA or NMDA also benefit from it.

The original manufacturer set the therapuetic range at about 60 days of continual use.

After 60 days, if i'm satisfied with the long term results, should i still take choline supplements ? will the cholinergic receptors be more sensitive to choline ?

Please keep in mind that the modulation of excitatory pathways is glutaminergic, not cholinergic, so the co-supplementation of choline will not ameliorate these symptoms.

this is where i'm lost ... from all the posts i've read, everybody says that we need a very good source of choline to counteract the ''brain fog effect''

thanks for your time Irish

[sunshinefrost]

Here's what i get after 1 month of utilisation.

after 1 month i feel tired. i don't see the promised benifits of neural plasticity augmentation, neurogenesis advantages or any upregulation i could notice. instead i feel like i lowered my concentration ability. Maybe this works only for people with disabilities.

the only benefits i get is when i'm on it. It does power up my brain while on it but what i was looking for was "long term " enhancement... not a temporary boost.

Is there any Aniracetam users on this site that can say they clearly got a "long term " boost from this reacetem ? personally i've read many posts that explain what it should do but no one ever posted a new thread entitled: "Wow Aniracetam really works after 2 months or 1 months " ...or: i am way sharper in everything i do and i can sustain longer period of concentration... or my memory has improved dramatically eventhough i stopped taking it !

Edited by sunshinefrost, 29 September 2009 - 09:40 PM.

[golden1]

Here's what i get after 1 month of utilisation.

after 1 month i feel tired. i don't see the promised benifits of neural plasticity augmentation, neurogenesis advantages or any upregulation i could notice. instead i feel like i lowered my concentration ability. Maybe this works only for people with disabilities.

the only benefits i get is when i'm on it. It does power up my brain while on it but what i was looking for was "long term " enhancement... not a temporary boost.

Is there any Aniracetam users on this site that can say they clearly got a "long term " boost from this reacetem ? personally i've read many posts that explain what it should do but no one ever posted a new thread entitled: "Wow Aniracetam really works after 2 months or 1 months " ...or: i am way sharper in everything i do and i can sustain longer period of concentration... or my memory has improved dramatically eventhough i stopped taking it !

I've used it for a couple months and it seemed to be getting better and better, but as of this week all it does is make me incredibly tired after it wears off.
I really liked it too.. maybe this has to do with something else I'm doing..

[Johann]

I'm still satisfied with it but I am taking some Galantamine (4mg) along w/ it. I also started taking some of my wife's extra Wellbutrin and do I feel good?! I am able to focus so well now. This last weekend I laid off the ani and then when I went back on it I seemed to get a really noticeable effect. I just love it and am planning on buying more and possibly pushing it with piracetam and/or pramiracetam. I also want to get some CDP Choline and bump it up a notch.

[sunshinefrost]

hey Johan you like it while you are on it, .... but when, and if, you ever stop using it, tell me if your memory or brain energy is better than when you started. that's what i'm interested in. I'm interested in the benefits of neurogenesis... not the temporary boost .

If ani works, you should be able to remember this thread and bump it when the time comes

Edited by sunshinefrost, 01 October 2009 - 02:53 PM.

[sunshinefrost]

Golden1, you say you used it for a couple of months. Tell me if your brain energy and memory is better, worst or the same as before you started. If aniracetam promotes receptor growth, did you notice new abilities other than color saturation or loudness of sounds ?

[SYNTAX]

I know that there are some die hard fans of the racetams here but here is what I think:
It seems to work like a cousin to aspartame. I used to be addicted to diet coke before I knew of
its harmful effects. I would eat some peanuts for breakfast and chase it with ice cold diet coke and let me tell you, my brain was PERKED UP! But it was deceptive. The overstimulation of the neurons being fired repetitively like a light switch being turned off and on really fast was causing long term damage. The same thing goes for chinese food with lots of monosodium glutamate in it. IT feels good while eating, but later on that day there is a price to pay.

And I don't think the fault has anything to do with DMAE. I've been taking that for 6 years off and on and don't notice any dumb effects from it. I do notice that too much will make me a bit too alert and all but I don't take it every day.

Aniracetam is a "dumb drug."

^Most misinformed post I've ever read.

I agree with Irish MD