31 replies to this topic

[NathanaelK]

I don't think most of us our satisfied with Obama's doings in making some innovations in our rights and human development. Actually this is well portrayed after one representative called him "LIAR" on his recently speech. He is one plucky guy I suppose.

"Joe Wilson is your pre-existing condition" is a joke from a website of the same name. Similar to the famed Chuck Norris jokes (Chuck Norris can divide by zero, for instance) the line Joe Wilson is your pre-existing condition are a series of jokes about horrible things Joe Wilson is blamed for. They obviously aren't true. For instance, "Joe Wilson laid off your dad before his pension kicked in." For those not in the know, Representative Joe Wilson (R-South Carolina) shouted "You Lie!" during President Barack Obama's health care speech. The Joe Wilson is your pre-existing condition website is incredibly funny, although he might get overnight loans to shut it down if he gets his feathers ruffled enough.



So do you think Joe Wilson is just being frank or he needs some attention? I just don't feel that our president should be treated like that. As a human we still need to respect others. Share your thought here at ImmInst Forum. We all love to hear it.

[JLL]

Yes, how dare anybody call a politician a liar. Absurd!

I chuckled at the Chuck Norris joke, btw.

[eternaltraveler]

Joe wilson, being a politician is incapable of telling the truth, so therefore we must conclude he was lying when he called obama a liar, who is also a politician and therefore incapable of truth telling...

Chuck norris must have been dividing by zero again....

Edited by eternaltraveler, 11 September 2009 - 12:33 PM.

[Ben]

why will no federal dollars be used to fund abortion? Hm, I guess the morons need something.

They're used here for that purpose, and, believe me, there's no abortion epidemic, though, the liberal black-jew-hispanic press could be suppressing the media coverage. An extremely likely event now that I think hard about it with my brain. My thinking tool. My thinky, think machine. Hmm, think, think, think.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 11 September 2009 - 01:16 PM.

[Ben]

Re. the question: It was very unprofessional, you should hear some of the names that're thrown about casually, almost customarily, in parliament here though.

Bill Bryson in "Down Under" mentions that in parliament, Paul Keating (one of long serving PM's -like president) said these of the opposition:

scumbags,
pieces of criminal garbage,
sleaze-perfumed gigolos,
gutless spivs,
boxheads,
immoral cheatsm; and,
stunned mullets

[niner]

There seems to be widespread agreement that Obama was telling the truth when Wilson yelled "you lie". Wilson has since appologised for his breech of decorum, and the Republican Party has distanced itself from him. I wonder if they are distancing themselves from the real liars out there? (Sarah Palin, "Death Panels", Glenn Beck, anything out of his mouth, etc) It doesn't appear that they are. These clowns are killing the Republican party, and they are doing great harm to our country.

[DJS]

So far, he's pulled in $200k in campaign contributions since the incident.

Read into that however you like.

[niner]

So far, he's pulled in $200k in campaign contributions since the incident.

Read into that however you like.

You mean Wilson has pulled in 200K? There's money well spent... I heard that Wilson's Democratic opponent pulled in 200K "within hours" of the outburst, and close to half a million in 24 hours. I suppose this will energize people in both camps. There are still a lot of "Birthers" out there, they probably have some money to spend.

[stevenh]

I don't think most of us our satisfied with Obama's doings in making some innovations in our rights and human development. Actually this is well portrayed after one representative called him "LIAR" on his recently speech. He is one plucky guy I suppose.

"Joe Wilson is your pre-existing condition" is a joke from a website of the same name. Similar to the famed Chuck Norris jokes (Chuck Norris can divide by zero, for instance) the line Joe Wilson is your pre-existing condition are a series of jokes about horrible things Joe Wilson is blamed for. They obviously aren't true. For instance, "Joe Wilson laid off your dad before his pension kicked in." For those not in the know, Representative Joe Wilson (R-South Carolina) shouted "You Lie!" during President Barack Obama's health care speech. The Joe Wilson is your pre-existing condition website is incredibly funny, although he might get overnight loans to shut it down if he gets his feathers ruffled enough.

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So do you think Joe Wilson is just being frank or he needs some attention? I just don't feel that our president should be treated like that. As a human we still need to respect others. Share your thought here at ImmInst Forum. We all love to hear it.

When Obama says that no illegal alien will be covered under the government option as outlined in the three plans currently in the house and the senate he is not technically fibbing but he is not giving the complete story. Because verification of citizenship or legal resident alien status is not sufficiently provided for in the bills some illegals will get coverage. This burden of verification will fall mostly on the poor who often lack sufficient documentation to prove they are citizens which is why it was left out of all three bills. After Obama's speech Rahm Emanuel, Obama's enforcer chief of staff, rushed over to three Republicans and, in a profanity laced screed, demanded that Wilson be forced to apologize. Emanuel can't say two words without one being profane. But the media certainly didn't report what Emanuel did. I believe that deserves designation as a double standard. In the early days of the Senate Senators often allowed their emotions to get the best of them and debates devolved on occasion to brawls on the Senate floor. One event in 1856 gives some background on how far back the bitterness goes. South Carolina has been pivotal in our nations' history, from the Constitutional Convention to Secession to the present day where we have Ben Bernake chairman of the FED and now somewhat ignomonously, Joe Wilson. I don't know what's up (I live in SC) but I'm drinking bottled water from now on.

[niner]

When Obama says that no illegal alien will be covered under the government option as outlined in the three plans currently in the house and the senate he is not technically fibbing but he is not giving the complete story. Because verification of citizenship or legal resident alien status is not sufficiently provided for in the bills some illegals will get coverage. This burden of verification will fall mostly on the poor who often lack sufficient documentation to prove they are citizens which is why it was left out of all three bills.

Yes, and when it was tried before, the number of illegals that were caught trying to get healthcare was ridiculously small, particularly when compared to the number of citizens who were denied healthcare because they couldn't prove their citizenship. That's why it was dropped in the past, and why it's not there now. Since it's already been shown to clearly not be a problem, why was Wilson so worked up over it?

After Obama's speech Rahm Emanuel, Obama's enforcer chief of staff, rushed over to three Republicans and, in a profanity laced screed, demanded that Wilson be forced to apologize. Emanuel can't say two words without one being profane. But the media certainly didn't report what Emanuel did. I believe that deserves designation as a double standard.

What, you think Emanuel should be excoriated for swearing? That's a standard that will take out a lot of Republicans as well as Emanuel. Remember Dick Cheney's "Go Fuck Yourself" comment delivered to Pat Leahy on the Senate floor? Or are you concerned that he shouldn't have demanded an apology? Or that the media didn't report that? (It was reported; I heard it on NPR.) Or is the problem that the media didn't report that he swears a lot? That's been reported too. It's common knowledge. I think it's tacky, but it's no secret.

[stevenh]

When Obama says that no illegal alien will be covered under the government option as outlined in the three plans currently in the house and the senate he is not technically fibbing but he is not giving the complete story. Because verification of citizenship or legal resident alien status is not sufficiently provided for in the bills some illegals will get coverage. This burden of verification will fall mostly on the poor who often lack sufficient documentation to prove they are citizens which is why it was left out of all three bills.

Yes, and when it was tried before, the number of illegals that were caught trying to get healthcare was ridiculously small, particularly when compared to the number of citizens who were denied healthcare because they couldn't prove their citizenship. That's why it was dropped in the past, and why it's not there now. Since it's already been shown to clearly not be a problem, why was Wilson so worked up over it?

After Obama's speech Rahm Emanuel, Obama's enforcer chief of staff, rushed over to three Republicans and, in a profanity laced screed, demanded that Wilson be forced to apologize. Emanuel can't say two words without one being profane. But the media certainly didn't report what Emanuel did. I believe that deserves designation as a double standard.

What, you think Emanuel should be excoriated for swearing? That's a standard that will take out a lot of Republicans as well as Emanuel. Remember Dick Cheney's "Go Fuck Yourself" comment delivered to Pat Leahy on the Senate floor? Or are you concerned that he shouldn't have demanded an apology? Or that the media didn't report that? (It was reported; I heard it on NPR.) Or is the problem that the media didn't report that he swears a lot? That's been reported too. It's common knowledge. I think it's tacky, but it's no secret.

When was comprehensive healthcare reform tried before? Illegals currently utilize emergency room services as their primary care physician. We pay for their healthcare today. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 has placed great burdens on hospitals in forcing them to treat all comers regardless of ability to pay. The unintended consequence of this act has been the treatment of illegal aliens. EMTALA is bankrupting hospitals in regions of the country where there are a disproportionate number of illegal aliens, Florida, Texas and California. So too with HR 3200, there will be unintended consequences. That radical organization the Congressional Reseach Service says, noncitizens who can be considered "resident aliens" under U.S. tax law would have to buy insurance (under HR 3200) — and unlike immigration laws, the tax code doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Wilson was correct in calling Obama on this.

I really don't understand how Emanuel's penchant for making everyday a "swearing-in" ceremony has to do with his quick to anger profanity laced screed in the House chamber being any less egregious violation of decorum and civility.

Best,

Steve

[niner]

When Obama says that no illegal alien will be covered under the government option as outlined in the three plans currently in the house and the senate he is not technically fibbing but he is not giving the complete story. Because verification of citizenship or legal resident alien status is not sufficiently provided for in the bills some illegals will get coverage. This burden of verification will fall mostly on the poor who often lack sufficient documentation to prove they are citizens which is why it was left out of all three bills.

Yes, and when it was tried before, the number of illegals that were caught trying to get healthcare was ridiculously small, particularly when compared to the number of citizens who were denied healthcare because they couldn't prove their citizenship. That's why it was dropped in the past, and why it's not there now. Since it's already been shown to clearly not be a problem, why was Wilson so worked up over it?

After Obama's speech Rahm Emanuel, Obama's enforcer chief of staff, rushed over to three Republicans and, in a profanity laced screed, demanded that Wilson be forced to apologize. Emanuel can't say two words without one being profane. But the media certainly didn't report what Emanuel did. I believe that deserves designation as a double standard.

What, you think Emanuel should be excoriated for swearing? That's a standard that will take out a lot of Republicans as well as Emanuel. Remember Dick Cheney's "Go Fuck Yourself" comment delivered to Pat Leahy on the Senate floor? Or are you concerned that he shouldn't have demanded an apology? Or that the media didn't report that? (It was reported; I heard it on NPR.) Or is the problem that the media didn't report that he swears a lot? That's been reported too. It's common knowledge. I think it's tacky, but it's no secret.

When was comprehensive healthcare reform tried before? Illegals currently utilize emergency room services as their primary care physician. We pay for their healthcare today. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 has placed great burdens on hospitals in forcing them to treat all comers regardless of ability to pay. The unintended consequence of this act has been the treatment of illegal aliens. EMTALA is bankrupting hospitals in regions of the country where there are a disproportionate number of illegal aliens, Florida, Texas and California. So too with HR 3200, there will be unintended consequences.

Not comprehensive healthcare reform; what was tried before was an attempt to prevent illegal aliens from getting services. That is where the illegal problem was found to be essentially a non-issue, while citizens were being harmed in much larger numbers. This was presumably for routine, non-emergency care, and would be comparable to the situations being proposed currently. Emergency care, as in the case of EMTALA, would continue as before, and is not connected to the current proposals.

That radical organization the Congressional Reseach Service says, noncitizens who can be considered "resident aliens" under U.S. tax law would have to buy insurance (under HR 3200) — and unlike immigration laws, the tax code doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Wilson was correct in calling Obama on this.

What's wrong with illegals buying insurance? If they pay for it, they may well pay more money than they use. I don't see a problem here. The tax code requires a social security number in order to file, and illegals can't get a valid social security number, right?

I really don't understand how Emanuel's penchant for making everyday a "swearing-in" ceremony has to do with his quick to anger profanity laced screed in the House chamber being any less egregious violation of decorum and civility.

Emanuel was having a private, non-televised (tacky) conversation with his equals, while Wilson yelled at The President during an event that was televised around the world, undercutting our President's authority in front of every nation on Earth. You consider these situations equal?

[stevenh]

Not comprehensive healthcare reform; what was tried before was an attempt to prevent illegal aliens from getting services. That is where the illegal problem was found to be essentially a non-issue, while citizens were being harmed in much larger numbers. This was presumably for routine, non-emergency care, and would be comparable to the situations being proposed currently. Emergency care, as in the case of EMTALA, would continue as before, and is not connected to the current proposals.

Of course EMTALA is not connected to the current proposals it was a demonstration that illegal's access to emergency rooms is an unintended consequence of legislation. You still have not identified what study to which you are referring. I think it was a Kaiser Foundation study that showed the illegal immigrants have low utilization rates nationwide but still made over 1 million visits to emergency rooms in 2007 but Kaiser could not identify those illegals with forged credentials. Hospitals fund charitable clinics in part to unburden their emergency rooms of the uninsured some of which are illegals but those costs are also passed along to the taxpayer. Over 50% of emergency room services go unpaid each year, illegals represent a mere 2/3rds of 1% of that 50% but in high concentration areas like California, Texas and Florida the situation is much worse or we wouldn't be seeing hospitals in trouble in all three states. This of course does not include those illegals who are working under forged documents, a huge industry with a driver's license going for over $2000. Employers in order to remain compliant with federal and state law look the other way when they probably know that the documents are forged.

What's wrong with illegals buying insurance? If they pay for it, they may well pay more money than they use. I don't see a problem here. The tax code requires a social security number in order to file, and illegals can't get a valid social security number, right?

Nothing, they contribute to Social Security each year and are unlikely to collect, it does show that Joe Wilson was correct and Obama was wrong. That's all, just what this kerfuffle was all about. About that Social Security number, they get them all the time through fraud and theft. They also get, legally, federal tax id numbers to pay taxes if they start their own businesses.

I have little problem with immigration even illegal immigration. I have employed illegals to work at my home because I find them to be honest and hard working and deserving but I think we need to bring it out into the open and allow some kind of amnesty program for those already here. I think this is a temporary problem and will sort itself out later on this century. I don't believe that Mexico and the rest of Latin America will remain in the economic state they are now in. We just have to look at Brazil to realize that fast economic growth can happen anywhere.

Best,

Steve

[niner]

I have employed illegals to work at my home

Is that legal? You are benefitting from their work, but you don't want them to get healthcare. I would prefer to see better controls on immigration, but if they are here and we are benefitting from their labor, I think we need to either pay them enough to pay for healthcare or provide it somehow. This is getting kind of off topic as far as Wilson's outburst, but then trying to link people's anger at immigrants to the healthcare debate is essentially "Off Topic" itself. They have little to do with each other.

[stevenh]

I have employed illegals to work at my home

Is that legal? You are benefitting from their work, but you don't want them to get healthcare. I would prefer to see better controls on immigration, but if they are here and we are benefitting from their labor, I think we need to either pay them enough to pay for healthcare or provide it somehow. This is getting kind of off topic as far as Wilson's outburst, but then trying to link people's anger at immigrants to the healthcare debate is essentially "Off Topic" itself. They have little to do with each other.

The point was that policies have unintended consequences and the radical organization, The Congressional Research Service, agrees that illegal aliens who are employed and receiving a paycheck and are paying payroll taxes will be required to have coverage. Joe Wilson was correct when he yelled, "You lie." Egregious as it was, he was right. My personal view on immigration is that many jobs illegals take do not put someone else out of a job. If South Carolina lost all of our Hispanic and Asian immigrants both legal and illegal unemployment on top of their departure would increase by some 12,000 jobs. No, I want both here. They are uniquely motivated for a better life. And as Julian Simon used to say, the more minds the better.

Edited by stevenh, 18 September 2009 - 11:23 PM.

[niner]

I have employed illegals to work at my home

Is that legal? You are benefitting from their work, but you don't want them to get healthcare. I would prefer to see better controls on immigration, but if they are here and we are benefitting from their labor, I think we need to either pay them enough to pay for healthcare or provide it somehow. This is getting kind of off topic as far as Wilson's outburst, but then trying to link people's anger at immigrants to the healthcare debate is essentially "Off Topic" itself. They have little to do with each other.

The point was that policies have unintended consequences and the radical organization, The Congressional Research Service, agrees that illegal aliens who are employed and receiving a paycheck and are paying payroll taxes will be required to have coverage. Joe Wilson was correct when he yelled, "You lie." Egregious as it was, he was right.

Required to have coverage, as in buy it themselves, but would not be covered by the government. If Wilson was only basing his outburst on the fact that they'd be required to buy coverage, then he's even crazier than I thought he was, and that outburst was in NO WAY justified. If he thinks that illegals would somehow be sponging off the taxpayer by the millions, then I think he's wrong. If that were true, which I don't think it is, then maybe he'd have been justified.

[niner]

Just for the record, here is a section of Joe Wilson's Wikipedia page. (The official, locked-down version). (My bolds)

On September 9, 2009, President Barack Obama addressed a joint session of Congress to outline his proposal for reforming health care. During his address, Obama said: "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."[30]

In a breach of decorum,[31] Wilson pointed at Obama and shouted, "You lie!"[32][33][34][35] He said afterwards that his action reflected his view that the bill would provide government-subsidized benefits to illegal immigrants.[36] Wilson attracted national and international attention for the incident.[37][38]

Members of Congress from both parties condemned the outburst. "Totally disrespectful," said Senator John McCain (R-Arizona) of Wilson's utterance. "No place for it in that setting or any other and he should apologize immediately."[39][40]

[RighteousReason]

(Washington Times) Obama said this week his health-care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage ...

[niner]

(Washington Times) Obama said this week his health-care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage ...

Was that reported in any papers that aren't funded by the Moonies?

[stevenh]

I have employed illegals to work at my home

Is that legal? You are benefitting from their work, but you don't want them to get healthcare. I would prefer to see better controls on immigration, but if they are here and we are benefitting from their labor, I think we need to either pay them enough to pay for healthcare or provide it somehow. This is getting kind of off topic as far as Wilson's outburst, but then trying to link people's anger at immigrants to the healthcare debate is essentially "Off Topic" itself. They have little to do with each other.

The point was that policies have unintended consequences and the radical organization, The Congressional Research Service, agrees that illegal aliens who are employed and receiving a paycheck and are paying payroll taxes will be required to have coverage. Joe Wilson was correct when he yelled, "You lie." Egregious as it was, he was right.

Required to have coverage, as in buy it themselves, but would not be covered by the government. If Wilson was only basing his outburst on the fact that they'd be required to buy coverage, then he's even crazier than I thought he was, and that outburst was in NO WAY justified. If he thinks that illegals would somehow be sponging off the taxpayer by the millions, then I think he's wrong. If that were true, which I don't think it is, then maybe he'd have been justified.

You are forgetting that the bills would assist those who can't afford it out of pocket. The subsidies die out at around 400% of the poverty line.

[niner]

Required to have coverage, as in buy it themselves, but would not be covered by the government. If Wilson was only basing his outburst on the fact that they'd be required to buy coverage, then he's even crazier than I thought he was, and that outburst was in NO WAY justified. If he thinks that illegals would somehow be sponging off the taxpayer by the millions, then I think he's wrong. If that were true, which I don't think it is, then maybe he'd have been justified.

You are forgetting that the bills would assist those who can't afford it out of pocket. The subsidies die out at around 400% of the poverty line.

It's already been stated that the bills would not assist illegals. You're beating a dead horse here.

[RighteousReason]

(Washington Times) Obama said this week his health-care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage ...

Was that reported in any papers that aren't funded by the Moonies?

Wow, really? Look it up yourself. You should post back here to verify that it is correct. That way we can be very clear that Obama is being dishonest.

Edited by RighteousReason, 19 September 2009 - 02:40 AM.

[niner]

(Washington Times) Obama said this week his health-care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage ...

Was that reported in any papers that aren't funded by the Moonies?

Wow, really? Look it up yourself. You should post back here to verify that it is correct. That way we can be very clear that Obama is being dishonest.

OK, I did. The Moonie Times is apparently full of shit. Here's what CNN reports:

The president Wednesday night continued his push for health care form, saying "Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken. That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else. "And we certainly should not let this debate on health care — one so essential to Hispanic Americans and all Americans — get sidetracked by those looking to exploit divisions and kill reform at any cost."

Obama also made a pitch for immigration reform, one if his goals for next year.
"If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all. That's what I've said from the start. That's what I say tonight," he said.

Note what Obama actually said, as opposed to the Washington Times spin.

[RighteousReason]

(Washington Times) Obama said this week his health-care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage ...

Was that reported in any papers that aren't funded by the Moonies?

Wow, really? Look it up yourself. You should post back here to verify that it is correct. That way we can be very clear that Obama is being dishonest.

OK, I did. The Moonie Times is apparently full of shit. Here's what CNN reports:

The president Wednesday night continued his push for health care form, saying "Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken. That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else. "And we certainly should not let this debate on health care — one so essential to Hispanic Americans and all Americans — get sidetracked by those looking to exploit divisions and kill reform at any cost."

Obama also made a pitch for immigration reform, one if his goals for next year.
"If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all. That's what I've said from the start. That's what I say tonight," he said.

Note what Obama actually said, as opposed to the Washington Times spin.

Is Obama for or against amnesty for illegal immigrants?

“Yes, they broke the law. And we should not excuse that. We should require them to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for citizenship - behind those who came here legally. But we cannot - and should not - deport 12 million people. ”

Obama went on to say: “That's why we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship. That way, we can reconcile our values as both a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws.”

Ok.

1. "we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship"

2. "I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else."

1 + 2 = 3, health care for illegal immigrants.

Is that really "full of shit" or "spin"? Logic is not spin.

Edited by RighteousReason, 19 September 2009 - 03:25 AM.

[Rational Madman]

(Washington Times) Obama said this week his health-care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage ...

Was that reported in any papers that aren't funded by the Moonies?

Wow, really? Look it up yourself. You should post back here to verify that it is correct. That way we can be very clear that Obama is being dishonest.

OK, I did. The Moonie Times is apparently full of shit. Here's what CNN reports:

The president Wednesday night continued his push for health care form, saying "Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken. That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else. "And we certainly should not let this debate on health care — one so essential to Hispanic Americans and all Americans — get sidetracked by those looking to exploit divisions and kill reform at any cost."

Obama also made a pitch for immigration reform, one if his goals for next year.
"If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all. That's what I've said from the start. That's what I say tonight," he said.

Note what Obama actually said, as opposed to the Washington Times spin.

Is Obama for or against amnesty for illegal immigrants?

“Yes, they broke the law. And we should not excuse that. We should require them to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for citizenship - behind those who came here legally. But we cannot - and should not - deport 12 million people. ”

Obama went on to say: “That's why we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship. That way, we can reconcile our values as both a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws.”

Ok.

1. "we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship"

2. "I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else."

1 + 2 = 3, health care for illegal immigrants.

Is that really "full of shit" or "spin"? Logic is not spin.

Obama has only proposed reviving the previously failed effort to provide illegal immigrants a new legal avenue to citizenship. This effort is likely to be reignited sometime before the 2010 Congressional elections.

Unless you can identify a clause in any of the pending pieces of legislation that supports your claim, or provide clear evidence of a White House desire to extend coverage to undocumented residents, I suggest that you abandon this nativist nonsense. I mean, let's think about this logically, do you think any of the authors of the pending legislation would jeopardize the passage of their bills by adding a controversial clause that is likely to not only galvanize the opposition, but ensure that the bill is dead on arrival?

Edited by Rol82, 19 September 2009 - 06:31 AM.

[niner]

Is Obama for or against amnesty for illegal immigrants?

“Yes, they broke the law. And we should not excuse that. We should require them to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for citizenship - behind those who came here legally. But we cannot - and should not - deport 12 million people. ”

Obama went on to say: “That's why we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship. That way, we can reconcile our values as both a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws.”

Ok.

1. "we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship"

2. "I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else."

1 + 2 = 3, health care for illegal immigrants.

Is that really "full of shit" or "spin"? Logic is not spin.

Yes, it is spin and it is not logical. Amnesty is not even on the table. The Right is claiming that healthcare reform will immediately result in illegals getting subsidized care, which isn't true. If someone makes it through all of the hurdles that Obama proposes as a pathway to citizenship, they will no longer be illegal. They will be citizens. But Obama's proposal for a pathway to citizenship is not a law, it's not policy. It's just a proposal, nothing more. It will take Congressional action to make it law. You are trying to combine a healthcare plan that explicitly does not treat illegals with a non-existent "pathway to citizenship" that may never happen, and coming up with a Right Wing Fantasy. It's just wrong.

[RighteousReason]

The Right is claiming that healthcare reform will immediately result in illegals getting subsidized care

Who exactly is "The Right" and where have they ever made that claim? The point is, Obama is being dishonest- he says that illegal immigrants will not participate in the health care plan, but all he really plans to do is redefine them as "not illegal".

Edited by RighteousReason, 19 September 2009 - 04:16 AM.

[stevenh]

Required to have coverage, as in buy it themselves, but would not be covered by the government. If Wilson was only basing his outburst on the fact that they'd be required to buy coverage, then he's even crazier than I thought he was, and that outburst was in NO WAY justified. If he thinks that illegals would somehow be sponging off the taxpayer by the millions, then I think he's wrong. If that were true, which I don't think it is, then maybe he'd have been justified.

You are forgetting that the bills would assist those who can't afford it out of pocket. The subsidies die out at around 400% of the poverty line.

It's already been stated that the bills would not assist illegals. You're beating a dead horse here.

The bills say no such thing except in a positive statement that illegals won't be eligible but the overall effect of the bills' language is that illegals will be able to participate. I pointed out that the CRS, that radical group, says that illegals will likely participate and receive those subsidies as the bills are now written. Without onerous safegaurds that may hinder US citizens from qualifying, illegals will participate.

[Rational Madman]

Required to have coverage, as in buy it themselves, but would not be covered by the government. If Wilson was only basing his outburst on the fact that they'd be required to buy coverage, then he's even crazier than I thought he was, and that outburst was in NO WAY justified. If he thinks that illegals would somehow be sponging off the taxpayer by the millions, then I think he's wrong. If that were true, which I don't think it is, then maybe he'd have been justified.

You are forgetting that the bills would assist those who can't afford it out of pocket. The subsidies die out at around 400% of the poverty line.

It's already been stated that the bills would not assist illegals. You're beating a dead horse here.

The bills say no such thing except in a positive statement that illegals won't be eligible but the overall effect of the bills' language is that illegals will be able to participate. I pointed out that the CRS, that radical group, says that illegals will likely participate and receive those subsidies as the bills are now written. Without onerous safegaurds that may hinder US citizens from qualifying, illegals will participate.

Absent safeguards, it might be possible for documented residents to gain access to the funds appropriated, but I'm having trouble believing that undocumented residents would be able to receive coverage through legal means and without compromising their status. For this to happen, there would have to be a clear amendment to one of five pending pieces of legislation, and a separate bill that provides legal protection and a path to citizenship for undocumented residents. This has not happened, nor is there any evidence to suggest that it will happen any time before the passage of health care legislation.

Edited by Rol82, 19 September 2009 - 05:04 AM.

[Connor MacLeod]

Emanuel was having a private, non-televised (tacky) conversation with his equals...

I don't want to split hairs, but the chief of staff is an extra-constitutional position of the Executive office granted to the president by permission of congress: when Rahm is talking with members of congress -- popularly elected officials of the constitutionally-mandated legislative branch, it is most certainly not an interaction between equals.

Edited by Connor MacLeod, 19 September 2009 - 08:43 AM.