<John_McC> sjvan, I've got a question for you about Alcor practices... What's the position on storage of side information?
<Randolfe> SJVAN: hAS ANYONE TRIED TO CULTURE ANY CELLS FROM A TINY PIECE OF SOMEONE FROZEN FOR A LONG TIME? tHAT WOULD PROVE THAT THEIR WAS STILL LIFE AT A CELLUALR LEVEL THERE.
<Randolfe> SORRY FOR THE CAPS. DIDN'T NOTICE THE light was on.
<Jonesey> just spent a weekend with some very bright folks at a colloquium, and they all thought cryo was pretty bizarre. and these are bright folks. the avg reaction is much worse.
<FutureQ> lcor shoulde stress to people when queried about grissliness of neuro that medical neuros are all the time done.
<thefirstimmortal> Sjvan, did you indicate earlier that Alcor was thinking about making the religious argument, but backed off because og publicity?
<thefirstimmortal> of
<sjvan> I don't know about culturing, but em photos show them in very good shape
<Randolfe> this is what my best friend wrote me today regareding cryonics: He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.
<sjvan> no, just that it has come up in court cases involving autopsy
<sjvan> Religion I think does better in court
<Randolfe> The fact autopsy has laid the groundwork gives Alcor something to build on.
<FutureQ> Which gorundwork?
<sjvan> making a wildly atheistic argument in AZ house does not strike me as wise
<FutureQ> SWhy stress atheism?
<Randolfe> Arguing you are a "religion" does not make a "wildly atheistic argument"{. It makes sense.
<sjvan> Orthodox jews are against autopsy, and have strict time limits for burial
<FutureQ> For folks sake there are idots signing up for mummification and we don't see legislators harrassing them!
<sjvan> no, but when the "details" of the "religion" are known, it becomes pretty apparent that this is atheism trying to use a religous loophole
<sjvan> yes, it doesn't make sense, but emotional arguments rarely do
<Randolfe> I know the mummifiers very well. They work your mummification in with your traditional religious services.
<Randolfe> Why is belief in science not a religion?
<sjvan> mummification actually fits better with conventional practice
<thefirstimmortal> sjvan, forgive me for saying this, but you are completely unaware of how are first Amendment works, Atheist are protected also
<FutureQ> Heh, A,lcor should sart mumifying the body and storing the head in liquid nitrogen "modern" Canopic jars!
<Randolfe> Not when they sell you on the idea that your mummy can be used for cloning purposes. You can't clone from dead cells.
<sjvan> because if it were a religion, there would be a open-shut case to remove evolution from the schools
<FutureQ> Then they'dget ignored
<Randolfe> Right, if you think about it, the rights of atheists are always mentioned when they talk about the freedom of religion. It is the atheists who object to being considered a religion.
<thefirstimmortal> There is already one religion formed years ago, that has Cryonics suspension specifically mentioned on it's 503 © application
<Lazlo> Randolfe the belief in science as a religion already exists, it is called Scientology. Do we really want to go this route?
<sjvan> I'm aware of how the first amendment works...that is why i said it was a good argument for the courts
<Randolfe> I'll go any route necessary to get them to leave me a lone and give me a chance to live again.
<thefirstimmortal> Sorry sjvan, my bad
<John_McC> What religion mentions cryonics?
<FutureQ> I think we should stress that we are a nebulous religious device jsded by members of many faiths. We have our own John Grigg a Mormon, and several Budhists, and some other Christians and some Jewish people in our wide ilk.
<sjvan> but legislators don't sit there and go, ooo, good first amendment argument...they figure out what they want to do, then try to find a way around those restrictions
<Randolfe> I once went to a Scientogoly meeting because of the name. It was not science. They mailed me stuff for the next ten years.
<thefirstimmortal> At a minimum, the protections of the Free Exercise Clause pertain if the law at issue discriminates against some or all religious beliefs or regulates or prohibits conduct because it is undertaken for religious reasons.]
<Lazlo> As for frozen tissues being resuscitated this is being done all the time with sprem and now will be done with ovarian tisue in humans soon too
<Lazlo> perm* ;-)
<sjvan> If we bring religion into it, be just become even more of a nutcase situation
<John_McC> Don't get Keith started on Scientology :-)
<Lazlo> sperm and bad fingers bad!
<Randolfe> SJVAN: If you accuse them of "religious discrimination" you might find they get intimidated.
* BJKlein nods to sjvan
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<sjvan> you might also find them get angry and recalcitrant, since they won't be discriminating against any of *their* voters
<Randolfe> BJK, then you have a lot of "nutcases" here tonight I think???
<Lazlo> not without a constiuency of practicing believers, I mean voters
<BJKlein> the goal of creating a cryonic friendly law is key here..
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<John_McC> I agree, sjvan. Religious arguments are a bad idea, a bad approach, and likely to ultimately fail.
<BJKlein> if alcor suddendly went to religion, they'd loose the support of 70% of their members
<Randolfe> Conscientious objectors never won in an election but they won in court.
<sjvan> at this time, pointing fingers, however justified, is not good tactics...later, maybe
<Lazlo> everybody who opts for cryo isn't going to have to convert or this will fail as an approach
<FutureQ> <-- nutcase, whole jars full!!
* BJKlein official chat ends
<BJKlein> feel free to carry on
<Lazlo> you can't start an evangelical movement out of this, it will be even more divisive
<John_McC> Hm... I wonder if there are any cryonics friendly guys in the NV legislature.
<Randolfe> We evangelicals will do as we feel called to do.
<sjvan> as i said, religion is considered, but only as a last resort...like when trying to pry someone from the coroner
<Lazlo> this reduces the overall appeal of the technology, and defines the adherents as fringe "cultists"
<Randolfe> At least lay the groundwork so if no other alternatives are left, you can use that argument.
<sjvan> Alcor does have "Religous Objection to Autopsy" forms that we encourage everyone to fill out
<Lazlo> it is premature for an endgame strategy
<Randolfe> Lazlo, I am a science cultist!
<Lazlo> I am a simple skeptic Randy
<sjvan> The interesting thing about the objection forms is that no particular religion is needed
<FutureQ> I think ulimately it is not up to Alcor or it's wide member base to choose the religious discrimination route but rather for a single imndividual, not even necessarilly an Alcor member to sue for this reason on grounds the legislation unintentiona;lly discriminates against them, ie: me.
<sjvan> the religious objection works just as well if you are the only member
<FutureQ> Something to keep for last ditch effort
<Randolfe> You have to get "religion" Lazlo and dive into eternity through the "Ice of Hope" and "rebirth" through cryonics and/or cloning! (ha)
<Lazlo> dead on FuturQ
<thefirstimmortal> sjvan, I'm not advocating that Alcor should turn religious, Alcor should use The Universal Life Extension Church to advance the Arguments and take the heat
<Randolfe> Why can't there be different branches of cryoniucs like their are different branches of other belief systems?
<sjvan> Actually, things don't look *too* bad at the moment, and there is a lot of room for more compromise in the senate
<FutureQ> You gotta love the visual of me in my wheelchair against the "powers of darkness" discroiminating against me.
<thefirstimmortal> I am to understand that they have 30 grand set aside for legal defense
<sjvan> The point is that we can defend our members religious right without having to specify a particular church. The specifying part is what adds to fruitcakness
<Randolfe> One lawyer can eat 30 grand just at one lunch.
<Lazlo> To amke and appeal to more than a Ted Williams , but mainstreme voters do not make this a religious conversion case. If it is posed this way it defaults to adversarial and you make enemies that you might not otherwise get
<sjvan> lazlo: exactly
<Randolfe> You couldn't have more enemies of cryonics than you do now. The religionists hate you the most.
<Lazlo> Exactly sjvan, I am still intersted in broaddening the appeal to more groups and demonstrating how this fits in with a contiuency of respect and closure aspects for the families
<Randolfe> The better argument outside of religion is the right of people to dictate what happens to their bodies after death.
<Lazlo> Hasn't anyone come to realize how important the " presentation" is to the survivors?
<sjvan> Oh, yes, we can have many more enemies.
<Lazlo> relative need and want to commune with their loved ones and it could even be better than traditional methods as it retains a bit more hope.
<FutureQ> Is there a possible genetic tissue bank side issue to the right of people to seek to protect their bank of DNA from misues or disuse?
<Randolfe> Presentation? Has anyone thought of putting pictures and/or autobiographies on those cold cannisters at Alcor? It might humanize them a bit.
<sjvan> The vast majority of peple don't care one way or another...it is just a small minority that has the "wisdom of repugnance"
<Utnapishtim> Ah big problem is that cryonicists often simply don't speak the language of mainstream society at large
<sjvan> but they can make a lot of trouble
<Utnapishtim> sjvan: When I knocked out that article I posted on imminst I was very aware of the need for a mainstream voice
<sjvan> humanize? or deprive them of their dignity, turning it into a sideshow.....see how things can get twisted?
<John_McC> sjvan, I'll repeat my old question... What's Alcor's position on storage of side information? (hard drives, etc.)
<Lazlo> But on a practical level the lacking element is with the psychology of memorial, no "chapel" no urn or mosoleum
<Utnapishtim> How difficult a concept is it for people to graps that this is simply none of their business
<sjvan> The entire alcor building is a memorial...filled with the photos of our patients
<Randolfe> They put names on gravestones and inscriptions. What is wrong with putting some personal touches on those vats??
<sjvan> we do it for our own sake, to remind us why we are there
<Lazlo> most people that visit grave yards wnat something consitent with their perspective of "contact"
<sjvan> On the website to do list is a meet the patients site...photos, stories, reminiscences, etc
<Randolfe> Can relatives come to Alcor and visit their suspended loved ones at the vat itself??
<sjvan> do you guys think it would help?
<Lazlo> the pictures and building they can have on their computer]
<sjvan> we were really just thinking of the families
<Lazlo> Can the vats get dressed up as more traditional sarcophogi?
<Randolfe> I think someone who feels that their loved one was still there waiting to be revived would be a powerful and moving testimonial if handled properly even in a propoganda movie.
<Utnapishtim> I think the vats could look a little les sterile
<FutureQ> As regards closure issues for family and friends, I have for some time proposed using wakes and engaging the services of funeral homes for planning such so that the funerary industry does not feel left out and losing business. I have a friend who's cousin is the National Funeral Direc tors president. She's going to introduce me and among other things zi'm going to stress this desire to work with them.
<Lazlo> All of this in a non denominatinal way still preserves many traditional values and lends to legitimacy when going before legislatures
<sjvan> when we move the dewars to the new bay, there will be an effort at aesthetics
<Randolfe> I think multi-dimensional crystal figures set over the vats representing those within would create an amazinf image.
<Utnapishtim> It absolutely sickens me that it is neccessary to cowtow to autocratic arbiters of traditional values just for the right to dispose of my remains as I see fit
<sjvan> many, many specify no wake or funeral in their wills
<Lazlo> burial rituals change from generation to generation, this society can absorb and observe, there is a lot of history to support the legitimazation of new aproaches
<Randolfe> Lazlo, Alcor doesn't consider it engages in "burial rituals".
<sjvan> there are good security reasons to not specify who is in what dewar
<FutureQ> Rather than the clutter of pictures, how about the high tech route? ASAren't there now lcd paintings that switch images frequently even from a servor? Alcor could link to pictures of all the individuals in a dewer and have the images cycle.
<Lazlo> creamatino wasn't accepted by the Jewish community a centry ago and now is very common, it does " BY LAW" Randy
<Randolfe> Has anyone ever tried to retrieve or destroy one of the dewars?
<sjvan> no comment
<Randolfe> SJVAN: That is more frightening than any story you could tell us.
<Randolfe> If Ted Williams' disowned daughter shows up, have her arrested.
<Lazlo> Good idea FuturQ, a contninuous audio and visual memorial, a virtual " Eternal Flame"
<sjvan> well, the Dora Kent incident comes to mind, but I really don't want to talk about it
<FutureQ> Thanks, I'll take a small royalty please! j/k
<sjvan> didn't mean to scare you...security is what we try to keep most quiet
<Randolfe> I assume "Dora Kent" was the case where someone took a head in the trunk of a car or something. You need not comment. It sounds grisly.
<thefirstimmortal> sjvan, On the comment that you can't use the legilative record, here, from the Santeria case I mentioned
<thefirstimmortal> ... the city council made no attempt to address the supposed problem before its meeting in June, 1987, just weeks after the Church announced plans to open. The minutes and taped excerpts of the June 9 session, both of which are in the record, evidence significant hostility exhibited by residents, members of the city council, and other city officials toward the Santeria religion and its practice of animal sacrifice. The public
<Lazlo> Randolfe they default to either a funeral provider or a body parts handler,
<thefirstimmortal> and also, from same case.......
<thefirstimmortal> The president of the city council, Councilman Echevarria, asked: "What can we do to prevent the Church from opening?"
<thefirstimmortal> Various Hialeah city officials made comparable comments. The chaplain of the Hialeah Police Department told the city council that Santeria was a sin, "foolishness," "an abomination to the Lord," and the worship of "demons." He advised [508 U.S. 520, 542] the city council: "We need to be helping people and sharing with them the truth that is found in Jesus Christ." He concluded: "I would exhort you . . . not to permit this Chur
<sjvan> But no one is saying anything remotly as agreegious in the AZ house
<Randolfe> Go Wm O'Rights, go!
<Lazlo> That is what sunk them Bill was proof of prejudice, I remember the case I was living in PBC at the time
<Randolfe> SJVAN: They said you were preying on grieving families and doing a "scam".
<sjvan> The mantra, over and over, is that "we don't want to put them out of business"
<Randolfe> That "don't want to -put them out of business" mantra was Republican doubletalk.
<Lazlo> and they did get fall back regs after they lost that case on the question of how the handling of "remains" from the animal sacrifices were to be regulated in accord with local health and safety regs
<sjvan> which, to a resonable person, sound like ground for regulation
<FutureQ> They protest too loudly me thinks
<sjvan> yes, they do protest too loudly, but they know where the line is
<Utnapishtim> I genuinely don't think they understand exactly how important Alcors protocol is to its members
<sjvan> I would believe that...that is a failure of education on our parts
<thefirstimmortal> It wasn't sunk simply because of "prejudice", I've read the case no less than 20 times, combing it for weapons that we can use
<Randolfe> The trouble is that Stump "sounds reasonable" to the uninformed. That is why you should challenge him more directly. Make him lose his cool!
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<sjvan> in partial defense, we didn't ahve much time
<sjvan> but we should have started years sgo
<sjvan> he almost did lose his cool
<Lazlo> It is very hard to get Libbertarians to write law, it is anathema to their character with good reason
<Randolfe> Push him nest time. Or, have someone who is not representing you really go at him like those angry emailers. that might push him over the edge. That is the only way to make him show his real colors.
<FutureQ> You didn't start years ago becasuse of the influence, to me not necessrilly good in this case, of libertarianism, shuning ALL regulation to a fault and the fault has come home to roost!
<Utnapishtim> Has he actually given ANY clear and concrete reason as to why regulation and 'oversight' is neccessary. Exactly how and why the people of arizona need protecting from Alcor?
<thefirstimmortal> <sjvan> But no one is saying anything remotly as agreegious in the AZ house, Perhaps not, but the record can help, let me dissect it, I'll tell you how valuable it is or isn't
<sjvan> oh, yes, we have been dissecting the record, and will be putting it to good use in the Senate
<sjvan> We made a fast transcript for a reason
<Randolfe> The trouble is that they talk about "standard protocols" for handling dead bodies. They means burial in the traditional sense. Cryonics violates "standard protocols" and there is your problem.
<sjvan> I'd be very interested in your dissection
<Utnapishtim> I get a strong sense that Stump sees regulation as an end in itself ratehr than a means to an end
<Lazlo> Do noative Americans still post their dead on raised platforms on the Reservations in Arizona to be eaten by vultures?
<sjvan> The AAGA puts everything out of "standard protocols"...hence our insistance on it.
<Randolfe> Thank you for being here tonight and answering these questions Sjvan. I was not too gracious earlier. I apologize.
<FutureQ> Just look at all the bill stumnp has been invo,ved in!
<thefirstimmortal> OK, you all have been dissecting the record, I'm offering free legal help, you all have till Sept of 05, don't you think we should start getting a legal case put together now, just in case?
<Lazlo> I jsut thought I would remind everyone what one of the local traditional forms of burial are
<Randolfe> What is the AAGA
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<sjvan> sure...I'd heartily recommend thta you right a formal legal brief, and I'll make sure personally that everyon see it.
<Randolfe> It is Indians in India that feed their dead to the vultures.
<sjvan> or even informal...just put your thughts on paper where I can pass them around
<Lazlo> Also praie and desert SW Randy
<Lazlo> prairie*
<sjvan> completely ot, but they are running out of vultures in India...quite an ecological problem with their customs
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<Randolfe> That gives me an alternative to bruial, cremation or freezing if I can just join one of the tribes.
<John_Ventureville> firstimmortal, are you a lawyer?
<Lazlo> I just mean the range of "legitimate" traditional methods are pretty broad
<thefirstimmortal> sjvan, Saul forwarded some of my legal brief like statements on this bill to the Alcor leadership
<Randolfe> Lazlo, you mean you wouldn't prefer to be eaten by vultures than to be cremated or buried? I would if I had to choose.
<John_Ventureville> thefirstimmortal, are you an attorney?
<BJKlein> john.. ya have a pm when you have time..
<BJKlein> red tab above
<Randolfe> John, don't get too hung up on titles. I understand the first immortal has won many court cases.
<Lazlo> My father outlaw says he wants to be put througha amnure spreader and mixed into fertile field, I understand that one. BTW, burial at sea is still practiced too, and by the GOVERNMENT
<John_Ventureville> *I choose to be eaten by ferrets at death if cryonics is not an option*
<Lazlo> manure spreader*
<Randolfe> Let's start an all-inclusive "alternative burial society".
<thefirstimmortal> Attorney, no, when I want to challenge a law, I break it and become a defendant, I am undefeated when it comes to challenging laws on constituional matters, and 90 percent on other legal matters. I've only lost 2 cases out of 30
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<Utnapishtim> I am absolutely disinterested in what happens to my remains if cryonics is not an option as long as it is not overly undignified
<Utnapishtim> or distressing to my relatives
<Lazlo> Franky IO certainly *grok* the idea of being converted to food for all the life forms that have fed me through the years
<Randolfe> Lazlo, you mean "meat to meat" instead of "dust to dust". How very praqctical.
<sjvan> At one time, I suggested that my torso after neuro be parted out for use by medical students
<Lazlo> I want to remind everyone this entire debate will dramatically shift if any sibject gets revived after a few months of cryo suspension
<sjvan> but after the UCLA and Tulane scandles, that sounds like a bad idea
<sjvan> too bad for the students
<Randolfe> SJVAN: Doesn't it seem likely that entire bodies will be revived first?
<Utnapishtim> Lazlo: Stick to your classical rhetorical flourishes. They provide a welcome relief from standard extropian/techie vernacular
<Lazlo> it doesn't have to be a human and it doesn't have to be dead to begin with
<sjvan> not at the moment...vitrification is only possible with neuros
<davidbe> sjvan, is the neuro procedure compatible with donating the rest of the body to research, as with Science Care Anatomical?
<sjvan> now, with whole body vitrification, I'm switching
<Randolfe> You mean the rest of the body is destroyed when being thaw4ed?
<John_Ventureville> to change the subject for a moment....
<sjvan> not for most science use, like skin for burn victems and such...but the bones are still useful for students, and they aren't hurt at all
<John_Ventureville> how many people here took part in the Extropy Institute Online Summit?
<BJKlein> something like 150
<sjvan> Randolphe: with the neuro proceedure, the rest of the body is not preserved at all
<John_Ventureville> 150 ImmInst members took part in the ExI online summit?
<BJKlein> oh no
<BJKlein> sorry.. that was a total
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> How Many People Attended the online Summit? 164+ people attended the Summit. This number does not include anyone who just stopped by to take a look.
<Randolfe> I thought you could have both Neuro and the entire body for $175,000 total.
<BJKlein>
http://imminst.org/f...028<Nuzz> i would prefer whole body. not because of the thought of keeping only my head, but there is a greater possibility of being revived earlier
<BJKlein> ImmInst members = probably a nice % participated, but haven't counted
<John_Ventureville> I just wondered how many people in this chatroom had attended aside from the two of us
<Nuzz> its harder to construct a new body than it is to revive one
* BJKlein would think the loss of info from a full body suspension would not be good
<Randolfe> I had a great chat with one other person one night at the summit. Felt like Zeus and Isis on top of Mr. Olympus.
<John_Ventureville> BJ, maybe after the next ExI online summit you can do a special chat on it
<BJKlein> sure thing
<davidbe> Personally, I think it would be easier to grow a new body than fix the old one. But you pays your money and you takes your chances.
<Nuzz> you'd have to do a brain transplant
<FutureQ> When is the next Exl online summit? I donated but didn't participate mch.
<Lazlo> I don't think you need to rescusitate the dead to provide hope to the living if any form of effective crryo suspension can be demonstrated
<BJKlein> would think that the focus on the brain only would be best
<Nuzz> might as well just upload
<Nuzz> worry about it later
<Derek> Does anyone here actually believe that conscious identity would be maintained with a procedure like that?
<Nuzz> yup
<BJKlein> Randolfe, remember the chat participant's name for the ExI chat?
<Derek> could you explain why for me please?
<davidbe> No you would not need a brain transplant. You would grow a new body just as a lizard grows a new tail. Tissue generation technology.
<FutureQ> Derek with aa procedure like what?
<Derek> cryo
<Nuzz> zero-clone theorem says that two identical structures have identical properties. It's referring to consciousness
<FutureQ> Yes, we do or we would not be doing it.
<Nuzz> more related to omegism though
<Derek> Hm, I'm not familiar with it. Could you get me a link to something I could read about it?
<FutureQ>
http://www.alcor.org or
http://www.cryonics.org<sjvan> And all that is assuming you want a body like the old one...I would rather have a considerable improvemnt, thank you
<Derek> Alright, thanks
<FutureQ> sjvan, I figurew get reanimated first then shop for the variety of possible improvements. I might want a pair of wings.
<FutureQ> Welcome, Derek.
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<Derek> So (before I read), is this saying that if I were to duplicate myself, one consciousness would be present for both minds?
<Nuzz> it's too early to tell derek
<FutureQ> Umm, I ust gave you urls for cryonics, not duplicaion. That's a whole oyher asnd perenial discussion.
<Derek> I mean the theory he's talking about
<Derek> Well I see a direct connection
<Nuzz> for uploading, the physical body dies and you stay in the virtual world
<Nuzz> so no duplication there
<thefirstimmortal> OK sjvan, on our contention that no one is saying anything remotly as agreegious, and I agree that they are not, but consider the following Supreme cout holding....
<Derek> I understand that, but it would be a gradual process, correct? As in, you wouldn't make a copy and then destroy the brain.
<FutureQ> but Nuzz, once you are virtual you can duplicate to hearts deisre!
<Lazlo> HOw close to being able to revive a dog that was frozen alive?
<thefirstimmortal> The Free Exercise Clause, like the Establishment Clause, extends beyond facial discrimination. The Clause "forbids subtle departures from neutrality," Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437, 452 (1971), and "covert suppression of particular religious beliefs," Bowen v. Roy, supra, at 703 (opinion of Burger, C.J.). Official action that targets religious conduct for distinctive treatment cannot be shielded by mere compliance wi
<FutureQ> Lazlo, down to jst above freezing for almost 20 min? I tnhink.
<Nuzz> you do it one neuron at a time... but as i said before science is many years away from having a 'correct' answer to this
<Derek> yes, that's what I mean
<Derek> but in cryonics, the brain stops completely
<Derek> why would you have the same consciousness when it started back up?
<thefirstimmortal> note the language "subtle departures ", "covert suppression ", "governmental hostility which is masked as well as overt. "
<Derek> isn't it the same as making a douplicate and destroying it?
<thefirstimmortal> In other words, it doesn't have to be agreegious
<Derek> it being the origional mind
<sjvan> I agree, good arguments, if we need to strike down a bill we can't live with. In fact, I think we should give them plenty of rope in that department should it become necessary
<Randolfe> I thought the traznsplantation of one dog's head onto another dog looked promising.
<MichaelA> didn't they actually succeed in doing that, Randolfe?
<thefirstimmortal> Well, who's been working on that???
<FutureQ> Randy, it freake out a bunch of ludditesQ!Q
<MichaelA> someone at Transvision gave a talk on this subject
<sjvan> those experiments wer in the 30's
<Nuzz> there was an essay on consciousness but I can't remember the link
<Randolfe> Yes they did. Just think of the fun you coyuld have doing it with human beings. Taking someone who was brain dead for the new body.
<Nuzz> im trying to find it
<Lazlo> hypthermia within limits but the test is literally time. It will shatter the oppositionif it can be done for weeks. It will also get DARPA funding and be seen as a possible adjunct to tradtional medical techniques if the process can be demonsrtated for longer periods. Thisis where your investment of time and money belongs really, not in the courts
<FutureQ> 1960s a scientists did the tranplant.
<MichaelA> this would be an interim technology at best, however
<Derek> Alright, thanks Nuzz
<Randolfe> The dog's head was transplanted by the Russians in the 1970s I believe.
<Nuzz> luddites are concerned with technology taking away their jobs
<sjvan> not new...it was done long time before the 70's
<Utnapishtim> Nuzz: Ahh technology and foreigners the two great job stealing evils
<thefirstimmortal> and another thing, the law fails the "general applicability " test, do you seriously think I couldn't make a winning argument on that issue alone??? Now sjvan could you tell me, how "general" is a law that only affects one company in a State????????????
<Randolfe> Just imagine "outsourcing" cryonics jobs to India. It would be the ultimate religious conflict with those Hindu's and their cremation rites.
<thefirstimmortal> is that not a targeted law?
<sjvan> robert white, who did similar experiments in the 60's, is freaking people out about it now
http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/1263758.stm<Randolfe> So is that phony futurist, Dixon, from England. he tells the story of the monkey with teh transplanted head and all the controversy it arroused.
<FutureQ> Randolfe, the Russians put two dog heas on one dog, Dr. White, if I recall corectly, in the US, transfered between two dogs.
<sjvan> you ar preaching to the chior, thefirstimmortal...why are you giving them pointers on making a better bill <grin>
<Utnapishtim> Randolfe: Its probably true. Funnily enough any Hindus in my neighborhood could cremate away to their hearts content and it wouldn't stir me up in the slightest.
<Randolfe> SJVAN They are too stupid to ever visit here.
<sjvan> Dr. white did ful rhesus monkey heads...I have the paper to prove it
<Randolfe> Utnapism, keep them away from your dewar!
<sjvan> randolphe: we know for a fact they monitor other sites.
<Randolfe> Then, they are really stalking you.
<sjvan> yes, they are.
<FutureQ> Who is "they"? May I ask
<Lazlo> the worst thing many people do today is underestimate their opponents
<Randolfe> Ask them if they pray for you? That might lead them into saying something.
<thefirstimmortal> I doubt they could get a bill passed that I could not destroy, and I've only cited arguments from one of over 150 cases I've studied preparing for a defense of cryonics. But it appears that no one is truly interested in preparing for this battle
<Utnapishtim> A stupid, foolish or evil objective can still be pursued with a great deal of intelligence and resourcefulness. History teaches this tragic lesson time and time again
<Randolfe> These people are not that intelligent or resourceful. They are narrow-minded and intolerant.
<sjvan> Who are they...
<sjvan> think about recent publicity
<Lazlo> and they are aligned with the National ruling party
<FutureQ> I mean can we point toany particular group of people?
<sjvan> the az leg is not our enemy...that is all I'll say
<sjvan> I *cannot* say
<Randolfe> FutureQ, I think they are talking about the gang in the Arizona House of Representatives that has passed this law to put Alcor out of business.
<Lazlo> the one that at least for teh moment holds a majoity of Stae houses and both the Federal Executive and Legislative Branches
<FutureQ> Buzz amon & Co. I bet.
<sjvan> Well, just ask Keith how secure IRC is....
<Randolfe> Don't worry, Lazlo, the Republicans are doomed. They will be swept from power this year!
<FutureQ> Hey, would there be any merit to a password accessible only chat for imminst memebrs?
<Lazlo> I am real tired of hearing how stupid *those guys* are when they have steered the national debate their way for decades
<Lazlo> Yeah like Schwartzenegger
<sjvan> not with anyone with 5 bucks and a paypal can join
<Randolfe> If we have an election about "gay marriages" they might win. However, people are more concerned about jobs and peace and the economy.
<Nuzz> it doesn't matter which party has control, if they are not balanced, then it is bad news
<Lazlo> actually most demographics show very little has changed since 2000
<Nuzz> republicans will still have the edge
<Lazlo> most of the same States seem to be voting the same way
<FutureQ> Screw balance, I want stem cell research and only the dems will provide it, by aand large!
<Lazlo> It is their election to lose and they have the bankroll
<Randolfe> Demographics mean little. 3 million jobs loss. the American dollar falling like a stone. Imports out of control. Immigrants streaming across the borders? etc.
<Utnapishtim> If I listen to the White House these days it seems that the truly important issues of today are Steroid use in professioanl sports and hay marriages... Truly weighty topics those...
<Lazlo> The NFL agrees with the Whitehouse but teh PLayers Union doesn't
<Nuzz> I'm a moderate liberal but I do not want to see either the dems or reps have total control. Some important issues will be neglected either way
<Lazlo> Baseball Players Union*
<sjvan> Well, who wins the WH won't really make a bit of difference to Alcor, unless the feds suddenly decide this is their thing, and Bush already said no
<Nuzz> issues that will affect everyone, you better believe it
<Jonesey> i agree with whitehouse.com
<Randolfe> Steroid use is especially weighty. It makes you gain weight like crazy. Today, a congressman talked about a 275 pound non-steroid user facing a 315 pound steroid user and how overwhelmed he would be.
<BJKlein> FutureQ... we can create private chat rooms
<BJKlein> no poblem
<FutureQ> Bush already said no to pushing states around re: gay marriage, and now where is he? On the other side of his face.
<Lazlo> no but what is happening is that if many pf these groups turn out alot of local legislatures will be swung deep int their camp around the contry, The Republican could end up gaining in the legislature even if they lose the Executive
<Randolfe> Good night everyone. I am tired. It is time to retire and be frozen.
<Utnapishtim> Goodnight Randolphe
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<sjvan> naw, you can sleep whe your frozen
<Lazlo> A Nation Builder, BIg Government Defict Spending writer of unfunded mandates
<FutureQ> G'night Randy
<Lazlo> sleep well randy
<Lazlo> I will be away from the screen too for a while but I am curios FuturQ, how much effort is going into cryo suspension with intent for resuscitating?
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<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> you could say vitrification is cryo r & d with intent at resuscitation
<Utnapishtim> Sjvan: What timeframe do you personally anticipate before it is possible to fully suspend a living dog and revive him
<Lazlo> yes
<FutureQ> Lazlo, do you mean research toward reanimation? If so, I truly dont have any numbers. As far as CI goes, I belve the larger portion , for now, is in better protocals for freezing.
<John_Ventureville> I would say around 2040 we might see a suspended dog brought back
<Lazlo> It is very important *politically* to demonstrate the viability of this approach and that means revival of a frozen subject
<sjvan> By that, do you mean under ideal laboratory conditions?
<John_Ventureville> perhaps give it another twenty years past that point
<John_Ventureville> it depends on how advanced A.I. and nanotech is at that point
<Lazlo> consider it analogous to getting a satellite into orbit
<sjvan> And does the revive have to be fully functional and live indefinately?
<John_Ventureville> in my mind just be fully functional
<John_Ventureville> or close to it
<Lazlo> alive and not dead to start with is probably enough to validate all effort and a big infusion of investment capitol
<FutureQ> Well as far as the purpose of showing viability the resaerch doe by both orgs in aiding in storgae systems for organ donation. The successful storage and use of a froen organ will go a long way to proving viability.
<thefirstimmortal> So, sjvan, I have argued and hammered you with questions all night (a very lawyer like thing to do;) and thank you for your patience) is there anything you would like to ask me before I leave the chat room area?
<Nuzz> I have been thinking about the possibility of a "weak AI" used to do research and information association, with some powerful hardware, it might increase your odds of getting a correct theory on AI
<Nuzz> and everything else!
<Lazlo> don't worry as much about reviving the dead as that is a whole different issue, Yes using frozen organs is a step forward too
<sjvan> With the money, I think that in less that 10 years a full size animal could be frozen, and "recovered' to the degree that they are concious, alive, ahve memory, but may have neuromotor deficites, deafness, blindness, require machine assist, ect.
<Nuzz> it might speed up cryonics by 5 or 10 years if used to look at anatomy
<Derek> I still don't trust cryonics. I would be much happier never dying in the first place
<sjvan> Frankly though, I don't think such a revival would make much differenc in popularity
<sjvan> The vast majority of peopel I talk to say "yea, it will work, but it isn't for me"
<Lazlo> I disagree sjvan I talk to lay folks about these ideas and these are teh *signposts* that they are thining about
<sjvan> dereK
<sjvan> derek: no arguments from me there
<John_Ventureville> sj, let's try to avoid telling peta about your revival experiment if those are the results!
<John_Ventureville> ; (
<John_Ventureville> *I don't want any dewars blown up by radical animal rights terrorists*
<Nuzz> I have no interest in becoming frozen myself because I think it is unnecessary
<sjvan> lazlo: I think if you delve deeper, you find those "sign posts" convenient places to stop thinking. If you remove it, they just proceed to find a new one
<Lazlo> Sputnick was a little bigger tah a football but it ignited teh Space race and ten years later we were on the moon
<John_Ventureville> if someone is under thirty cryonics may be unnecessary for them
<Lazlo> Boomers have the wealth
<John_Ventureville> but then again medical technology may not advance as quickly as hoped
<Nuzz> I'm only 17
<John_Ventureville> time is definitely on your side!
<thefirstimmortal> Accidents Nuzz
<sjvan> Nuzz: get insurance while it is cheap.
<John_Ventureville> car crash, cancer
<John_Ventureville> nuzz, immortal brings up a good point
<Nuzz> I am pretty big-headed about my immortality theory
<John_Ventureville> *your* world may come to an end long before the rest of the world grinds to a halt
<sjvan> don't join if you don't wnat to, but having the insurance makes all the difference if the doctors say the cancer is inoperable, too bad, he was so young
<Nuzz> I have been in a situation where i was almost guaranteed to die but I was fine... i've cheated death so many times I can't even count
<John_Ventureville> Nuzz, you may have run out of lives....
<Nuzz> omega point
<John_Ventureville> and as you age your vulnerability will increase
<FutureQ> Seventeen ear olds already "feel" immortal. It's a stumbling block to getting serious about the realities of the darker sides of life. I know.
<Nuzz> hey if i was rich i would sign
<Lazlo> SJ I am not sayin g that just achieving limited revival is enough but it goes a long ways towards establishinglegitimacy in the common mind and developing R&D capital for ongoing improvements
<Nuzz> but im not
<Nuzz> jobs are terrible here
<sjvan> don't mistake luck for invulnerability...unless you were the only survivory of a passenger train wreck <grin>
<John_Ventureville> at seventeen I would look into the mirror and think "other people will grow old, but I can't imagine I will with such young looking visage"
<sjvan> lazlo: you bet...it would be a great advancment
<FutureQ> Nl need to be rich. Do you have the cash for a Latte' a day? If so get life insurance, NOT TERM, an d get it while you are healthy.
<thefirstimmortal> Everybody, goodnight and Live Long and Well, Rev. William Constitution O'Rights , Universal Live Extension Church, Inc. The First Immortal
<sjvan> get it while you are *young* makes huge difference
<BJKlein> take care Will