20 replies to this topic

[Johann]

I've been thinking about ordering some of the liquid selepryl (deprenyl) and would like other's opinions on it.  

Particularly,

1.  Is it the same as the tablet but more absorbable?

2. Is it worthwhile?  Can I take only 1-2 mg a day and benefit?

3. Are the companies online that offer it reputable?  

4. Is the selegiline real?

5. Lastly, what is up with this one group that is almost like a cult that shows up at every discussion about liquid deprenyl and claims that only they have the secret ingredient but its not available because of govt persecution?  

Edited by Johann, 16 September 2009 - 12:31 PM.

[protoject]

I've been thinking about ordering some of the liquid selepryl (deprenyl) and would like other's opinions on it.  

Particularly,

1.  Is it the same as the tablet but more absorbable?

2. Is it worthwhile?  Can I take only 1-2 mg a day and benefit?

3. Are the companies online that offer it reputable?  

4. Is the selegiline real?

5. Lastly, what is up with this one group that is almost like a cult that shows up at every discussion about liquid deprenyl and claims that only they have the secret ingredient but its not available because of govt persecution?  

Hey Johann,
1. the difference between the liquid and the pill form, as far as my understanding goes, is that when you absorb the liquid sublingually, a higher concentration will reach the blood before being metabolized by the liver, whereas if you take it by pill it will have to go through the liver before it hits the blood.

There's also some study that I've got somewhere linked on my computer, I'll try to find it and come back and post it, something to do with the different levels of metabolites / including amphetamines, based on the different methods of taking the medicine.

2. In my opinion, it is worthwhile. When I took deprenyl [liquid] my mood was improved and my libido went up, and my mind gained a slight edge. I only took it for a month at 10mg/day, and am curious how it would have turned out if I took it for a few months. I am trying another order of it soon but I'm using a combo that might prove to be beneficial.

3. IAS- international Anti Aging Systems- based in the UK, is reputable as far as I know, and I've bought many products off of them with no problems.

4. I have no way of confirming this except by the effects I got.

5. I have no idea...

Edited by protoject, 06 November 2009 - 10:02 PM.

[brain]

[/quote]

1.  Is it the same as the tablet but more absorbable?

2. Is it worthwhile?  Can I take only 1-2 mg a day and benefit?

3. Are the companies online that offer it reputable?  

4. Is the selegiline real?

5. Lastly, what is up with this one group that is almost like a cult that shows up at every discussion about liquid deprenyl and claims that only they have the secret ingredient but its not available because of govt persecution?  [/quote]

1. yes, it's more absorbable. most likely, anyway. the variety of selegiline being sold in liquid form (the citrate variety) hasn't been officially tested. anecdotal reports seem to generally report that it's works more efficiently and that lower doses are required. according to a certain study on sublingual selegiline, the bioavailability is 5x higer than through the oral route. so then 1 mg sublingually should = 5mg orally. in my experience it doesn't seem to absorb all very well in my mouth, because i'll continue tasting the odd selegiline tastes after 15 minutes of holding it in my mouth. but apparently, oral metabolism is terrible as well - so who can say what this really means. eventually i'll stop tasting it, but this may just be because it's becoming so diluted in all the saliva buildup (which is probably worse becuase of all the acetylcholine stimulation i'm getting through piracetam.

2. it's actually cheaper in the long run than buying the tablets. if you'd like a cheap supplier which i received mine from ($64 which includes shipping) PM me. there are 300 mg in each bottle, 1 drop equaling 1 mg. if you take 1 or 2 mg a day, which in oral form would translate (again, this isn't absolutely certain) to 5 or 10 mg, you can see how this would last longer and be more cost effective than the say jumex tabs which come in packs of 50.

2a. it depends. you may or may not benefit. i would speculate that with 1 - 2 mg/day, yes, you would benefit at least as much if not more as you would with the oral forms. whether or not it actually does anything to help you is another question, and depends on your own individual chemistry. as a young (20 years old), healthy (minus some possible adhd issues) male, i've found the effects to be very mild. i also think that it may be possible that i've overdone it with my dosing, so i've cut back to 2 mg/day. i'm also playing around with trying to hold it in my mouth with liquid, under the suspicion that the citrate goo stuff might be interfering with absorbtion, and with the possibility that it's actually just a citrate base with selegiline HCL inside of it. what i have noticed is an increase in sex drive (which is a good thing for me at least), less social anxiety, which isn't drastic but which is noticeable, and what appears to be more facial hair. i recently quit smoking, which is a natural MAO-B inhibitor, so maybe i'm trading off a little bit here and and feeling more that i would with nothing but can't fully notice this.

3. it's probably real. selegiline isn't a difficult chemical to make and i doubt cytopharma would be selling bunk stuff. it may not actually be citrate, but it may as well be, as adding a citrate bond to the selegiline molecule would again not be very difficult at all. they may as well if their going to label it as such. has anyone tested it to be absolutely sure? no.

4. yes. PM me if you'd like a good supplier.

5. long story. from what i remember, the gist of it was that was that the original company which was selling selegiline citrate in the US was persecuted by the gov and went out of biz. they had cytopharma manufacture the selegiline for them, and claim to have the patent for the formula. now that they can no longer sell selegiline, cytopharma has continued manufacturing it and distributing it on their on. the people who your seeing are affiliated with this company. as of recently (sep 2009) they're going to resume selling their own selegiline citrate, albeit under certain legal restrictions and at a much higher price. why have i read this question before, did you copy and paste it?

[Pike]

from personal experience with the liquid... tabs are a way better and more reliable dosing method.

the research supports sublingual administration, but not specifically selegiline citrate. there's no research that demonstrates the citrate has any pharmacological properties above the standard form. for that matter, there's no research on the citrate form at all.

sublingual administration of selegiline may sound attractive. 1mg to get the same job done as 5mg? count me in! the only major problem with sublingual is that, from both an anti-aging and transhumanist view, you're missing out on all of the benefits of selegiline's metabolites brought about by oral administration (and hepatic metabolization). for example, selegiline's metabolite desmethylselegilne is an immunostimulant. at a 1mg dose sublingually, you'd get far less metabolization into desmethylselegiline and you miss out on the immune system boost! desmethylselegiline is also 33 times more bioavailable than selegiline. so with oral admin, you get a drug+prodrug kind of effect (that you won't get much of with sublingual) that offers more health benefits.

another thing: even if the citrate form is what it claims to be, i've found the dropper to be a very unreliable dosing method. Sure, if you only wanted to use 1mg, then a drop sounds great. but, if you get even a little finger twitch, you might accidentally drop an extra drop, and since it's a clear liquid, you may not even notice it. 2mg might not sound like much compared to 1mg, but it's like comparing taking 5mg vs 10mg if you're taking it sublingually and the bioavailability is as it says. that extra accidental drop effectively doubles your dose and when it comes to MAO inhibition, careless administration can lead to drastic consequences. remember: MAOIs are a last-resort kind of option, when it comes to anti-depressants, for a reason (granted it carries less risk of cheese-syndrome).

oh, and anyone buying their selegiline from IAS is a total sucker. go alldaychemist.
anyone buying LIQUID selegiline is a sucker too. go alldaychemist. at $64, jesus, i could buy about 300 tabs of selegiline. which would equate to... 1500 mg. that's 5 times the amount you'd get from the liquid versions. and there's nothing that says you can't simply crush the tabs and put the powder under your tongue if you so desired. hell, you could even dissolve it in oil and make your own liquid selegiline preparation if you wanted.

[LIB]

from personal experience with the liquid... tabs are a way better and more reliable dosing method.

the research supports sublingual administration, but not specifically selegiline citrate. there's no research that demonstrates the citrate has any pharmacological properties above the standard form. for that matter, there's no research on the citrate form at all.

sublingual administration of selegiline may sound attractive. 1mg to get the same job done as 5mg? count me in! the only major problem with sublingual is that, from both an anti-aging and transhumanist view, you're missing out on all of the benefits of selegiline's metabolites brought about by oral administration (and hepatic metabolization). for example, selegiline's metabolite desmethylselegilne is an immunostimulant. at a 1mg dose sublingually, you'd get far less metabolization into desmethylselegiline and you miss out on the immune system boost! desmethylselegiline is also 33 times more bioavailable than selegiline. so with oral admin, you get a drug+prodrug kind of effect (that you won't get much of with sublingual) that offers more health benefits.

another thing: even if the citrate form is what it claims to be, i've found the dropper to be a very unreliable dosing method. Sure, if you only wanted to use 1mg, then a drop sounds great. but, if you get even a little finger twitch, you might accidentally drop an extra drop, and since it's a clear liquid, you may not even notice it. 2mg might not sound like much compared to 1mg, but it's like comparing taking 5mg vs 10mg if you're taking it sublingually and the bioavailability is as it says. that extra accidental drop effectively doubles your dose and when it comes to MAO inhibition, careless administration can lead to drastic consequences. remember: MAOIs are a last-resort kind of option, when it comes to anti-depressants, for a reason (granted it carries less risk of cheese-syndrome).

oh, and anyone buying their selegiline from IAS is a total sucker. go alldaychemist.
anyone buying LIQUID selegiline is a sucker too. go alldaychemist. at $64, jesus, i could buy about 300 tabs of selegiline. which would equate to... 1500 mg. that's 5 times the amount you'd get from the liquid versions. and there's nothing that says you can't simply crush the tabs and put the powder under your tongue if you so desired. hell, you could even dissolve it in oil and make your own liquid selegiline preparation if you wanted.

What's your dosage and experience/results with selegiline?

[Johann]

To all that have posted, thanks for the replies. I some selegiline
coming soon. I got it from alldaychemist. It was supposed to have left out
of customs yesterday so hopefully another couple of days and it will be here. Then I will post my experience with it. BTW, I got the tablets and 10 5 mg tabs from ADC comes out to $1.60. Only bad thing is that shipping is $25 so if ya order from there, order many things that you might need. They sell everything from Nizoral shampoo to generic viagra.

[Pike]

from personal experience with the liquid... tabs are a way better and more reliable dosing method.

the research supports sublingual administration, but not specifically selegiline citrate. there's no research that demonstrates the citrate has any pharmacological properties above the standard form. for that matter, there's no research on the citrate form at all.

sublingual administration of selegiline may sound attractive. 1mg to get the same job done as 5mg? count me in! the only major problem with sublingual is that, from both an anti-aging and transhumanist view, you're missing out on all of the benefits of selegiline's metabolites brought about by oral administration (and hepatic metabolization). for example, selegiline's metabolite desmethylselegilne is an immunostimulant. at a 1mg dose sublingually, you'd get far less metabolization into desmethylselegiline and you miss out on the immune system boost! desmethylselegiline is also 33 times more bioavailable than selegiline. so with oral admin, you get a drug+prodrug kind of effect (that you won't get much of with sublingual) that offers more health benefits.

another thing: even if the citrate form is what it claims to be, i've found the dropper to be a very unreliable dosing method. Sure, if you only wanted to use 1mg, then a drop sounds great. but, if you get even a little finger twitch, you might accidentally drop an extra drop, and since it's a clear liquid, you may not even notice it. 2mg might not sound like much compared to 1mg, but it's like comparing taking 5mg vs 10mg if you're taking it sublingually and the bioavailability is as it says. that extra accidental drop effectively doubles your dose and when it comes to MAO inhibition, careless administration can lead to drastic consequences. remember: MAOIs are a last-resort kind of option, when it comes to anti-depressants, for a reason (granted it carries less risk of cheese-syndrome).

oh, and anyone buying their selegiline from IAS is a total sucker. go alldaychemist.
anyone buying LIQUID selegiline is a sucker too. go alldaychemist. at $64, jesus, i could buy about 300 tabs of selegiline. which would equate to... 1500 mg. that's 5 times the amount you'd get from the liquid versions. and there's nothing that says you can't simply crush the tabs and put the powder under your tongue if you so desired. hell, you could even dissolve it in oil and make your own liquid selegiline preparation if you wanted.

What's your dosage and experience/results with selegiline?

right now, i've been at 5mg a day (split into two 2.5mg administrations). on it's own, it helped, but it wasn't until i combined it with memantine (at 20mg p/day) that it made any difference. that said, it's made a humongous impact on my adhd, to the point where i don't really even use my prescription adderall more than maybe once or twice a week, and when i do, i only have to take 1/5th of the dose (i'm prescribed 50mg a day) to reach the same effect. the MAO inhibition makes my IR last about as long as an XR.

safe to say that i've had positive experiences. however, be aware that selegiline takes a while to get used to, just like memantine. at the beginning, it totally knocked me on my ass, made me drowsy, super hungry, and i felt like i needed to take a nap every 30 minutes of the day. after 6 weeks, though, that all went away. selegiline, to say the least, is a bit of an investment of time/character and shouldn't be taken by those expecting immediate results.

[pycnogenol]

Hi Pike,

Just curious:

Did you start at 5 mg (2.5 mg x 2) or did you titrate up to 5 mg?

I don't take Deprenyl (never have) but I am currently researching this drug
and might possibly consider taking it in the near term.

Thanks. - pycnogenol

Edited by pycnogenol, 09 November 2009 - 12:04 AM.

[Pike]

Hi Pike,

Just curious:

Did you start at 5 mg (2.5 mg x 2) or did you titrate up to 5 mg?

I don't take Deprenyl (never have) but I am currently researching this drug
and might possibly consider taking it in the near term.

Thanks. - pycnogenol

actually i titrated down to 5mg. Originally, to kind of speed up the whole MAO inhibition process, i was using 10mg per day (5mg twice a day). first few days knocked me on my ass so bad that i would just take the full 10mg at night because it would just kill my energy. after about 5 days i was able to go 5mg twice a day. around the 2nd or 3rd week, i stepped it down to 7.5mg (2.5 morning, 5mg night). 6 week mark is when i dropped to 5mg (2.5mg morning, 2.5mg afternoon). looking back on it now, it might have been a better idea to titrate up to 10mg, and then back down to 5mg, or just stick with 5mg from the start.

[Johann]

The deprenyl from ADC arrived today. I took 1.25 mg this morning. I think I may feel
something that is ever so slight. I'm in a good mood but that is pretty much standard since I started using Aniracetam. I will stay at this dose for a few days and see how things go.

[protoject]

from personal experience with the liquid... tabs are a way better and more reliable dosing method.

the research supports sublingual administration, but not specifically selegiline citrate. there's no research that demonstrates the citrate has any pharmacological properties above the standard form. for that matter, there's no research on the citrate form at all.

sublingual administration of selegiline may sound attractive. 1mg to get the same job done as 5mg? count me in! the only major problem with sublingual is that, from both an anti-aging and transhumanist view, you're missing out on all of the benefits of selegiline's metabolites brought about by oral administration (and hepatic metabolization). for example, selegiline's metabolite desmethylselegilne is an immunostimulant. at a 1mg dose sublingually, you'd get far less metabolization into desmethylselegiline and you miss out on the immune system boost! desmethylselegiline is also 33 times more bioavailable than selegiline. so with oral admin, you get a drug+prodrug kind of effect (that you won't get much of with sublingual) that offers more health benefits.

another thing: even if the citrate form is what it claims to be, i've found the dropper to be a very unreliable dosing method. Sure, if you only wanted to use 1mg, then a drop sounds great. but, if you get even a little finger twitch, you might accidentally drop an extra drop, and since it's a clear liquid, you may not even notice it. 2mg might not sound like much compared to 1mg, but it's like comparing taking 5mg vs 10mg if you're taking it sublingually and the bioavailability is as it says. that extra accidental drop effectively doubles your dose and when it comes to MAO inhibition, careless administration can lead to drastic consequences. remember: MAOIs are a last-resort kind of option, when it comes to anti-depressants, for a reason (granted it carries less risk of cheese-syndrome).

oh, and anyone buying their selegiline from IAS is a total sucker. go alldaychemist.
anyone buying LIQUID selegiline is a sucker too. go alldaychemist. at $64, jesus, i could buy about 300 tabs of selegiline. which would equate to... 1500 mg. that's 5 times the amount you'd get from the liquid versions. and there's nothing that says you can't simply crush the tabs and put the powder under your tongue if you so desired. hell, you could even dissolve it in oil and make your own liquid selegiline preparation if you wanted.

AH! I wish I knew this a few weeks ago.
+ Thanks for your reply.

Edited by protoject, 11 November 2009 - 04:09 PM.

[tritium]

I wouldn't trust the quality of the liquid form anyway. Most of the liquid forms are made in Mexico and list "water" as an ingredient. If you have ever been to Mexico, as I have, the water quality there is terrible. Just drinking tap water can make you really sick. And, no, I'm not being racist, it is just the truth.

[protoject]

I've got another Q for anyone who might have the information, and I assume the answer is yes but, the liquid can be absorbed through the stomach just as well as the mouth right? I mean, the tablet obviously goes through the digestive./ GI tract/ liver, so if we swallowed liquid dep would it be equally as bioavailible? Any links referencing some research on the answer? Also curious Pike if you've got any research to back your answers 'cause I'm interested for sure.

[Johann]

Well I've got a little problem on my hands. Seems as if I ordered
Low Dose Naltrexone and Deprenyl at the same time and am not sure which may be causing this bad side effect. I have developed in the last 24 hours a certain form of clumsiness where I drop things easily or knock things over that I wouldn't normally.

Three days ago I began both drugs.
Day one for Deprenyl -- 1.25 mg
Day two -- 1.25 x 2
Day three --- Off day

LDN:
Day one -- 1 Mg at night
Day two -- 1 mg at night
Day three -- Didn't take it.

So in other words, yesterday I didn't take either. Is the clumsiness a MAO rebound since it was being suppressed mildly over the first two days?
Thoughts?

Edited by Johann, 12 November 2009 - 01:45 PM.

[protoject]

So in other words, yesterday I didn't take either. Is the clumsiness a MAO rebound since it was being suppressed mildly over the first two days?
Thoughts?

I couldn't see a reason for it being the dep, but when you test out the results for yourself let us know

[protoject]

right now, i've been at 5mg a day (split into two 2.5mg administrations). on it's own, it helped, but it wasn't until i combined it with memantine (at 20mg p/day) that it made any difference. that said, it's made a humongous impact on my adhd, to the point where i don't really even use my prescription adderall more than maybe once or twice a week, and when i do, i only have to take 1/5th of the dose (i'm prescribed 50mg a day) to reach the same effect. the MAO inhibition makes my IR last about as long as an XR.

Pike, was there any specific reasoning that you used memantine in conjunction with selegiline, or were you only using both for their own respective benefits unrelated to each other?

[Pike]

I've got another Q for anyone who might have the information, and I assume the answer is yes but, the liquid can be absorbed through the stomach just as well as the mouth right? I mean, the tablet obviously goes through the digestive./ GI tract/ liver, so if we swallowed liquid dep would it be equally as bioavailible? Any links referencing some research on the answer? Also curious Pike if you've got any research to back your answers 'cause I'm interested for sure.

check into the research that was done for "ZYDIS" selegiline, which, iirc, is the sublingual brand currently on the market. imho, sublingual would be a nice idea if your intent on using selegiline was as an antidepressant. from an anti-aging stantpoint, however, i think oral has more to offer. plus, like i said before, i really don't like that dropper. oh yeah, and liquid selegiline tastes like rotten ass.

if the liquid citrate form does actually carry the purported 99.whatever% bioavailability that it claims to have, then i don't know why they bother telling you to administer it sublingually because oral would be just as effective. i mean, aside from the spike-crash effect you'd get in blood levels from about ANY sublingual administration, wouldn't that like... chop the half-life into little bits?

however, in terms of citrate form... good luck finding any research. there is none.

Johann ==> i couldn't really say for sure what's causing your problems. i suppose the sure-fire thing you could do is stop both for now, because i think it's safe to assume that your klutzy side-effect is probably from ONE of those two. from what i've been reading, it looks like selegiline puts a lot of other people to sleep when they first try it (same problems with exhaustion). i'd never actually heard of the klutz effect you're talking about. i mean, it could be the LDN, but i have no idea. quick google check yields that both list nausea/dizziness under side effects, so, maybe you just didn't luck out and they're both making you a bit klutzy???

protoject - actually i've been taking memantine&selegiline both for their individual effects, and their complementary effects.

SELEGILINE - I started taking selegiline after i found THIS study showing selegiline had a CAE effect (which, afaik, is the only CAE on the consumer market) and THIS study that tested what is arguably one of the most contraindicated combination of drugs ever, but remarkably, selegiline significantly reduced the amphetamine-based cardio side effects. I think i was sold after that. now, granted that BPAP and PPAP (the research CAEs), which i guess were based off of selegiline's CAE mech, are supposed to be 1000 times stronger to the point where they actually have amphetamine-like stimulant qualities (wiki), i'm still very satisfied from the minute CAE effect that i get. looking into the mechanism of action for CAEs, i'd like to think that THOSE are the true stimulants of the future.

i tried to write a quick joe-schmo explanation of CAEs, but the wiki on BPAP does it better: BPAP.

MEMANTINE - i started taking memantine after i found out "low affinity" was a cooky way to say that it doesn't interfere with normal glutamate signalling. after that, i wasn't too worried about trying. before, i was pretty damn interested, but i thought the nmda-antagonism would block LTP formation; shows what i know. also, even though olney's lesions have never been discovered in humans (i guess it's a species specific thing), i haven't found any info on memantine even inducing them in animals when used in the low concentrations that humans use. nmda-antags enhance dopaminergic compounds, so it would sure as hell compliment my selegiline, prevent a large portion of the tolerance you get from them, and according to this (+ a couple other studies) memantine will give you a nice neurogenesis slap to the face! it seems to do the same for bdnf (or maybe the bdnf is the neurogenesis effect? haven't read enough about bdnf) as well.

another reason i got into memantine was suggested in that article someone posted up. in theory, perhaps the blocking of low-level glutamate excitotoxicity over a very long period of time could offer some major anti-aging benefits in the cognition dept.

edit: it just occurred to me that my sele+mem combo might be edging a bit too much on the anticholinergic side.

Edited by Pike, 13 November 2009 - 05:58 PM.

[Johann]

Pike,
Do you know much about the claim that Dep can cause a pro-oxidant effect?

[Pike]

Pike,
Do you know much about the claim that Dep can cause a pro-oxidant effect?

never heard of that! but now i'm interested. i'll see what i can dig up.

edit: did a quick check. couldn't find any information on selegiline having an effect on increasing reactive oxygen species. but dopamine by itself has the potential to be a pro-oxidant. it becomes a pro-oxidant from either deamination (which i assume mean it's contact with MAO) and from auto-oxidation. i couldn't find a lot of info about the auto-oxidation process of dopamine, but perpahs simply having more dopamine, in theory, could potentially have a pro-oxidant effect just because you have a larger availability of things to auto-oxidize. so in that regard, since selegiline would obviously increase dopamine levels, maybe that's the theory for it's pro-oxidant effect. that, or it could be something involving PEA, because last time i checked, PEA is the other thing metabolized by MAO-B (but i don't know much about PEA).

second edit: managed to find this study related PEA to the induction of ROS, but i'm not sure if this particular study holds well. apparently, PEA is metabolized by BOTH types of MAO, so i guess when taking selegiline, having an increased PEA concentration could..... also allow more MAO-A to oxidize it????? either way, if selegiline does have a pro-oxidant effect, it looks like it's anti-oxidant effect far overshadows its pro-oxidant effects.


shotgun theory, but, if dopamine can be auto-oxidized, wouldn't that mean that dopamine is, by itself, an anti-oxidant as its made inactive by reacting with oxygen?

Edited by Pike, 13 November 2009 - 10:37 PM.

[Johann]

Thanks for that research. IIRC what I read mentioned something about the hypothetical
situation where one natural antioxidant being raised might cause an increase in some type of
pro-oxidation. I don't have all the technical terms down (SOD, Catalase, etc) but it was
something in that general neighborhood. I know that is not much to work on... its a shame that I bookmark so much and use 4 different browsers or else I would have it handy. Not even sure it was journal or just editorial in nature.
Anyway, I'm resuming adding Dep in w/ my other supps/noots. I was excited reading about
it well over ten years ago in some health food store book that I happened across.
Is it best to take w/ food?

[Pike]

Thanks for that research. IIRC what I read mentioned something about the hypothetical
situation where one natural antioxidant being raised might cause an increase in some type of
pro-oxidation. I don't have all the technical terms down (SOD, Catalase, etc) but it was
something in that general neighborhood. I know that is not much to work on... its a shame that I bookmark so much and use 4 different browsers or else I would have it handy. Not even sure it was journal or just editorial in nature.
Anyway, I'm resuming adding Dep in w/ my other supps/noots. I was excited reading about
it well over ten years ago in some health food store book that I happened across.
Is it best to take w/ food?

hmm, that would seem like more of an adaptive response than a directly selegiline-related pro-oxidant effect. eh, who knows? if it IS some kind of adaptive pro-oxidant mechanism, then that can sure as hell be reversed with some consistent, good and old-fashioned exercise.

on the food note: YESSSSS. i think it's bioavailability drops to something in the single-digits without food.