52 replies to this topic

[white noise]

As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God. Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.
The fact that faith gives him strength to ignore the aging processes that occur in his body to understand many religious people.



Changes in faith in God, will only happen with the advent of intelligent robots that do not age, so that faith in God and eternal life for them will be incomprehensible.

Edited by white noise, 20 September 2009 - 10:31 AM.

[Ben]

What are you jibber-jabbering about?

My prescription: extreme introspection and reflection, meditation and if neither work, consider some ibogaine in a controlled environment. Ibogaine supposedly forces people to examine their lives. Examine yours. Are you spouting views on topics you haven't truly thought or gathered enough knowledge about? Are you doing this because you feel insecure, confused and that doing this helps you too feel a bit better about yourself? About the confusing world around you? About things you can't understand?

[Transcentity]

What are you talking about?

[maxwatt]

You appear brainwashed by Christian eschatology. Judaism is "strangely silent" on an afterlife in the wrds of one theologian. Most religions, especially the pagan, are not centered on eternal life. It may be sort of assumed, or completely ignored. Creation myths do seem universal.

Needing religion? The Greeks and Romans were amazed and bemused that the Hebrews had invented an invisible God. Now we have invented a non-existent God to worship.

[Custodiam]

White Noise, please define God!

In an intelligent conversation we should use words which have meaning.

[forever freedom]

He must have used google translator to write this lol.

[Transcentity]

I'm going to have a go at pointing out the flaws in his argument[sic].

As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God.

I live on Earth and I don't believe in god.
Or do you mean the population in general? Still no. Religiosity and theism aren't an inherent part of human nature, but are obtained through influence (or indoctrination) made easy thanks to our curious nature.

Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.

And what evidence can you give us that points to an inherent design in human nature that keeps us from living without 'faith' in a god? And why does it seem that I lack this mechanism, am I not human too?

The fact that faith gives him strength to ignore the aging processes that occur in his body to understand many religious people.

We've come this far in creating amazing AI yet we still fail at translating language properly =/.
Belief in a god (speaking as an ex-christian) never led me to ignore the horrors of the aging process, and frankly I don't want to ignore them; Death is barbaric and it should be stopped. Weather or not belief in god eases this discomfort of aging it still remains irrational to believe without evidence.

Edited by Transcentity, 14 October 2009 - 01:17 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God. Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.
The fact that faith gives him strength to ignore the aging processes that occur in his body to understand many religious people.

Changes in faith in God, will only happen with the advent of intelligent robots that do not age, so that faith in God and eternal life for them will be incomprehensible.

I don't have time to point out the exact evolutionary psychological origins of religion. But faith was a manifestation devised by our primitive minds thousands of years ago to keep us psychologically stable; primarily to alleviate the existential anxiety and fear of death (as well as for other reasons such as explaining the world around ... ex the rain god makes it rain ... and for political purposes). In the 21st century man can live without faith, though most still adhere to superstition instead of science and magic instead of technology.

[Esoparagon]

LOL

Delusional people are hilarious!!!

[six]

LOL

Delusional people are hilarious!!!

Amen!

[advancedatheist]

I don't see how a god really solves anything. A god could, without logical contradiction, have created human life without any meaning or purpose:

[exapted]

LOL

Delusional people are hilarious!!!

I'm more of the view that religion is tragic. But I like your approach.

[Shannon Vyff]

People that get meaning from believing in a God (and that belief in no different in the brain than belief in a "known fact" such as "that door I see before me will open") people who have faith, can also support life extension and it is more effective I feel to include them rather than debate them, although some do derive pleasure from the debate

[ImmortalPlan]

Most people are born into a culture teaching belief of a god or gods. Remember that people at some point had to create religion. Why do people feel the need to create god(s)? From my perspective, people not only developed religion to explain the unexplainable (fire, earth's creation, etc), but also to deal with death. *IMO, it all seems to come back to death.*

Modern societies go a step further and use religion to give their lives meaning. Since we do not have to worry about catching our food and such on a daily basis, needs higher up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs begin to emerge. So, religion begins to serve more complex needs in peoples' lives. In some cases, these are needs usually met by other human beings but people have substituted with religion.

Meaning is one need I feel is worth focusing on. Why do people need meaning in their lives? Again, I think this comes back to coping with death. People want their lives to matter so they can live on after death just as people have children so a part of them (and ideally their ideologies) can live on as well.

From what I have seen so far, many very religious people are offended by the quest for immortality. Also, many people in general are offended by the choice not to have children. See a connection?

Immortality is the dissolution of unplanned death. If death is an option and science can explain what use to be the unexplainable, then how will people rationalize religion to get their needs filled? How will they find meaning in their life? If we have no death (or can choose death), then want purpose does religion serve?

If people are raised (or de-convert) not to rely on religion for personal needs and fears, then death becomes a completely different entity. People that once focused on the afterlife for comfort have to find comfort in this life. Obviously, this could lead to amazingly wonderful changes in human society as people have to work even more with each other rather than against each other for the benefit of the individual and society.

Sadly, we are not yet at the point where death is a known option. For the majority of people on this planet, death is a given and questioning death is just mad. I think they subconsciously see our quest for immortality (or a very very very long life) as a direct threat on their life's meaning and their *hope* of an afterlife. They have built their lives around these beliefs, and they cannot handle these beliefs being challenged so close to death.

As we win battles with aging and have more life extension opportunities, I feel that the culture of death (and thus religion) will slowly change. Until people on a larger scale feel they have more control over their life span (or at least hope in control...hope is everything), religion is going to remain a very dominate piece of every human society.

[brokenportal]

I want to discuss all these points. Some are great, some of them we have some good insight to give you on. One I want to touch on now is that you write:

If we have no death (or can choose death), then want purpose does religion serve?

Like Aubrey points out, "God" doesnt care when you die. Contrary to our name, we arent working for Immortality, we are working for unlimited lifespans, we will all eventually get hit by a truck, or succumb to some big rogue disease or something like that.

[ImmortalPlan]

I want to discuss all these points. Some are great, some of them we have some good insight to give you on. One I want to touch on now is that you write:

If we have no death (or can choose death), then want purpose does religion serve?

Like Aubrey points out, "God" doesnt care when you die. Contrary to our name, we arent working for Immortality, we are working for unlimited lifespans, we will all eventually get hit by a truck, or succumb to some big rogue disease or something like that.

Yes, immortality in it's truest sense is pretty far our there. Even if we solve aging, death will have other opportunities (enter the truck....always that darn truck). So, death isn't something we can entirely eradicate, and if religion stems from death then it will stay too. But to what extent?

I am leaning more toward the idea/role of religion changing as the methodology of death changes, rather than religion disappearing entirely or becoming unneeded.

If death becomes less of an influence on humanity, maybe we can concentrate more on the here and now rather than the afterlife.

[exapted]

People say that philosophy and science are like religion, in that "absolute" knowledge doesn't really exist and people generally start from some arbitrary assumptions. But if science and philosophy are religions, then it is also true that modern religion is just really poor philosophy. It is an absolute train wreck. So I think modern religion's days are numbered, unless our planet can support a lot of, well, people who make obvious logical fallacies the basis of their ideas.

Proto-religion, shamanism, etc., were certainly very functional. I agree that death was one important factor. Also ritual, morality, pareidolia, and the placebo effect. These proto-religions were not just replaced by modern religion, but they were also replaced by many other things with similar functions. For example for the placebo effect we now go to medical doctors (and receive chemical treatment). And we have lots of different kinds of rituals.

But modern religion is an entirely different beast. Modern religion culled the most intractably annoying fallacies known to man, by an evolutionary process. One feature of modern religion is that it is annoyingly obtuse. Modern religion does not usually directly guide peoples' intellectual ideas, it underhandedly and invisibly restricts thought. People supposedly believe in their religions, yet they generally behave about the same as people who don't participate in religion, and their intellectual abilities are often hamstrung.

[exapted]

People that get meaning from believing in a God (and that belief in no different in the brain than belief in a "known fact" such as "that door I see before me will open") people who have faith, can also support life extension and it is more effective I feel to include them rather than debate them, although some do derive pleasure from the debate

Religion is not just another viewpoint. It is a particularly pathological meme-plex. It is specifically designed by the "hand" of memetic evolution to be annoyingly obtuse.

[ImmortalPlan]

But modern religion is an entirely different beast. Modern religion culled the most intractably annoying fallacies known to man, by an evolutionary process. One feature of modern religion is that it is annoyingly obtuse. Modern religion does not usually directly guide peoples' intellectual ideas, it underhandedly and invisibly restricts thought. People supposedly believe in their religions, yet they generally behave about the same as people who don't participate in religion, and their intellectual abilities are often hamstrung.

This is why much of modern religion (mostly the religious institutions) completely infuriates me. I have no problem with people believing in fairies under rocks until it starts to affect more than their own existence. If humanity put just a tenth of the effort, money, and support into research combating aging and diseases, space travel, and alternative energy (to name a few), I can only imagine how advanced we would be now.

Too much of modern religion is about control and ignorance - especially in the USA. For as far as we have come, we are still fighting the battles of Galileo. This makes me go "grrrrr".

I have started making a very concentrated effort to actually become involved rather than be an observer. This community (and sub-communities) needs more of a voice. Modern religion has a very strong voice, and thus a very strong influence. I am taking opportunities to discuss scientific advances and hopefully educate, open minds, and expose people to ideas and technologies they would not hear about in their daily circles. Maybe I am becoming an "evangelical" transhumanist/immortalist/activist, but as I learn I want to tell others so they too can make informed choices about the direction of their lives.

A collective effort (and patience) is needed to change society. Instead of waiting for someone else to start the change I want to see, I am making the choice for that change to start with me.

[exapted]

This is why much of modern religion (mostly the religious institutions) completely infuriates me. I have no problem with people believing in fairies under rocks until it starts to affect more than their own existence. If humanity put just a tenth of the effort, money, and support into research combating aging and diseases, space travel, and alternative energy (to name a few), I can only imagine how advanced we would be now.

Definitely. More money, consistently paid, more appropriately distributed among those categories. I think people are starting to slowly realize it.

I have started making a very concentrated effort to actually become involved rather than be an observer. This community (and sub-communities) needs more of a voice. Modern religion has a very strong voice, and thus a very strong influence. I am taking opportunities to discuss scientific advances and hopefully educate, open minds, and expose people to ideas and technologies they would not hear about in their daily circles. Maybe I am becoming an "evangelical" transhumanist/immortalist/activist, but as I learn I want to tell others so they too can make informed choices about the direction of their lives.

A collective effort (and patience) is needed to change society. Instead of waiting for someone else to start the change I want to see, I am making the choice for that change to start with me.

I wonder if transhumanism will be a political umbrella for atheism as well as, well, transhumanism. Dennett's "Brights" movement didn't quite work out.

And understanding and supporting transhumanism seems to be a part of many of my related opinions. I'm interested in it and think about it a lot, so it's hard to keep quiet about it.

[leeda]

I had living water once. In the scriptures it says basically Living Water = Immortality.

I don't believe in god though.

[cytg]

doesnt really matter what you're made of, does it, be it metal, gas, mold or these meatbags, everything that goes up, must come down. to have a start is to have an end.
fact of life up there with newtons laws, e=mc^2 ..
No matter what you wrap 'yourself' up in, you'll have to cope with the end part.

[bacopa]

doesnt really matter what you're made of, does it, be it metal, gas, mold or these meatbags, everything that goes up, must come down. to have a start is to have an end.
fact of life up there with newtons laws, e=mc^2 ..
No matter what you wrap 'yourself' up in, you'll have to cope with the end part.

What about uploading? If we can successfully do this isn't this a potential for immortality? Or making back up copies of one'self. Couldn't that protect us from all accidents? The question then would be could we really live in multiple different bodies and minds at the same time? Some say this is possible. Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to conclusively answer my queries.

[advancedatheist]

People that get meaning from believing in a God

But it doesn't follow that a god created human life to have any "meaning." A parsimonious theism could accept the proposition "A god created human life," without dragging in emotional baggage about whether this life has any "meaning" or not.

[cytg]

doesnt really matter what you're made of, does it, be it metal, gas, mold or these meatbags, everything that goes up, must come down. to have a start is to have an end.
fact of life up there with newtons laws, e=mc^2 ..
No matter what you wrap 'yourself' up in, you'll have to cope with the end part.

What about uploading? If we can successfully do this isn't this a potential for immortality? Or making back up copies of one'self. Couldn't that protect us from all accidents? The question then would be could we really live in multiple different bodies and minds at the same time? Some say this is possible. Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to conclusively answer my queries.

- really wouldnt make a difference in my mind, something will get the best of you, be it old age or a cosmic cataclysm.

[exapted]

doesnt really matter what you're made of, does it, be it metal, gas, mold or these meatbags, everything that goes up, must come down. to have a start is to have an end.
fact of life up there with newtons laws, e=mc^2 ..
No matter what you wrap 'yourself' up in, you'll have to cope with the end part.

What about uploading? If we can successfully do this isn't this a potential for immortality? Or making back up copies of one'self. Couldn't that protect us from all accidents? The question then would be could we really live in multiple different bodies and minds at the same time? Some say this is possible. Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to conclusively answer my queries.

- really wouldnt make a difference in my mind, something will get the best of you, be it old age or a cosmic cataclysm.

But death doesn't need to be an intrinsic part of society when it becomes less and less common or frequent.

If we all die in a cataclysm then who cares, we won't be around anymore.

[fatboy]

\As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God. Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.

Man is destined to create that which he cannot live without. God is coming. But God will come from us. To all my atheist and agnostic brethren: There is a God, and It is us.

Edited by fatboy, 24 October 2009 - 02:09 AM.

[CerebralCortex]

\As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God. Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.

Man is destined to create that which he cannot live without. God is coming. But God will come from us. To all my atheist and agnostic brethren: There is a God, and It is us.

WTF?

[fatboy]

\As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God. Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.

Man is destined to create that which he cannot live without. God is coming. But God will come from us. To all my atheist and agnostic brethren: There is a God, and It is us.

WTF?

Damn, that was lot of vodka last night. I don't even remember writing that. But after reading it, I kind of like it. I'm gonna keep it.

[forever freedom]

\As long as people will live on earth, they will believe in God. Man is designed so that to live without faith, he can not.

Man is destined to create that which he cannot live without. God is coming. But God will come from us. To all my atheist and agnostic brethren: There is a God, and It is us.

WTF?

lol, i assume he means that we will create and merge with superintelligent machines and will become Gods.