11 replies to this topic

[reng]

I was planning on starting to take Piracetam (moderate dose), Ortho Baics-3 (only 2 caps/day), Ortho-Mind(reduced dose also), and some Ashwaganda. I was reading that there may be neuro toxicity associated with pyroglutamic acid and a few other things. Is this something I should be concerned with? I don't have time to digest all the literature available here unfortunately, is there something I should add to this or substitute (cognitex vs. ortho-mind?) ?

I also just read something stating that "Some showed dimethylaminoethanol to increase the lifespan of animals in which it was tested, while others indicate a possible reduction in the average life span of quail.[4] With the uncertainty of whether this could be extrapolated to humans, dimethylaminoethanol supplementation is not generally recommended"

Does this mean that I should rethink taking Centrophenoxine? Anyone have a better insight on this matter?


Thanks,
Ryan

[reng]

I'm about to drop the hammer and order $100+ dollars of supplements, as listed above, this is a lot of money to me so I would really appreciate any advice. This forum use to be much more helpful it seemed- 33 views of this and not one comment???

-Rg

[golden1]

I'm about to drop the hammer and order $100+ dollars of supplements, as listed above, this is a lot of money to me so I would really appreciate any advice. This forum use to be much more helpful it seemed- 33 views of this and not one comment???

-Rg

definitely buy the piracetam. Ive heard the same things about DMAE and pyroglutamic acid, but I don't know anything more sorry.
I take aniracetam, piracetam, choline bitartrate, and a multivitamin and I'm pretty impressed with just that.

[425runner]

What else do you want to buy? I might help....are you in college?

I'm about to drop the hammer and order $100+ dollars of supplements, as listed above, this is a lot of money to me so I would really appreciate any advice. This forum use to be much more helpful it seemed- 33 views of this and not one comment???

-Rg

definitely buy the piracetam. Ive heard the same things about DMAE and pyroglutamic acid, but I don't know anything more sorry.
I take aniracetam, piracetam, choline bitartrate, and a multivitamin and I'm pretty impressed with just that.

[reng]

Yeah, I am in college. I wasn't really planning on getting anything else, that stuff alone is like 140 bucks sooo I little expensive for me. Any suggestions?

[Zoroaster]

Yeah, I am in college. I wasn't really planning on getting anything else, that stuff alone is like 140 bucks sooo I little expensive for me. Any suggestions?

Yes my suggestion is drop the ortho-mind and the ortho basics as they're ridiculously, RIDICUOUSLY overpriced. In fact, I hope you're not planning on buying your whole stack from RI because you'd be paying triple what you need too. That stack should not cost you $140. I paid that much for like a year's worth of noots a while back. And I got like 10 different sups! If price is at all a concern for you then you can buy bulk powders and mix your own supplements using a cap m' quick. Or buy cheaper brands from iherb or bulknutrition.

[reng]

Well I wanted a good daily, and I figured at best I would take 2 of the ortho basics daily so they would last longer (the three-a-days). Then I plan on taking Piracetam + whatever I should take in place of Ortho-mind--- bacopa + choline + other things?

So- what daily do you recommend that is cheaper? or is ortho-basics actually a good value here?
What in place of ortho-mind to go with piracetam? choline+bacopa at night+ ......???


Thanks everyone, it is much appreciated.

[Zoroaster]

I couldn't find ortho-basics on their website so I couldn't review what's in it. But if its anything like ortho-core, then literally any multivitamin from a reputable company is a better value. Frankly, a multi-vitamin is of minimal importance if you're eating a healthy diet. If you're not, I suggest going to costco and getting a years supply of a UMP certified multivitamin for like 12 bucks. It doesn't have the choline, and inisitol and all that stuff that ortho products do, but RI puts in miniscule, ineffective amounts of those things just for show anyway. You're not getting any benefit from 50mg of cheap choline! And especially if you're taking a reduced dose, its just not worth paying ten times the price so you can get miniscule amounts of cheap noots thrown in. If you want those things its still far cheaper to buy another multivitamin and then buy a choline supplement separately.

The same goes for orthomind. If you're taking a half dose then you're not taking enough to get anything out of that that you would feel. You might feel the 50mcg of Hup-A but if that's all you're getting out of it, might as well buy hup-a on its own and get a lot more for your money. You know? These combo supps are always a rip-off, and ortho-mind is one of the worst offenders.

You will definitely get much better results if you just take piracetam, cdp-choline, and bacopa, separately (at night is best). And with the money you save you can add other things (I like pyritinol, PEA, rhodiola, and cocamine). You could also consider sulbutiamine, centrophenoxine, dmae, or vinpocetin. In fact I didn't hear you mention fish oil, which I would say is a necessity if you're not already taking it.

[Pike]

My suggestion is to start off LIGHT on the nootropics and NEVER introduce more than 1 new nootropic into your regimen at a time without at least a 3-4 week space between your last introduction. I suppose the exception to this might be the common piracetam-choline source combo, but even then, i sometimes doubt whether or not the amount of choline people take is the actual amount they would benefit from.

First off, exercise is the most powerful nootropic, bar-none (hope i spelled that right). Exercise is THE best nootropic you will ever take. And to top it off, here's the best part: it's consistent. I now exercise (as in aerobic) at least one hour a day, and try to fit in an hour of anabolic exercise (typically, isometric exercises). That said, if you've checked out the "supplements undo the benefits of exercise thread" you'll undoubtedly be hit with the note that most nootropics also serve as powerful antioxidants. your body NEEDS free radicals/oxidants for dead tissue removal (i.e. exercise recovery) so just be aware that too many of these and you'll pretty much undo any benefit you get from doing all that activity us young folk love to do.

next up, your regimen. drop the ortho-anythings. it's not out of disrespect for aor, quite converseley, i think aor is a standup company and i have come to understand why they've earned the reputation they have among supplement buyers. however, if we're talking about just a BASIC stack for enhancement that a young person could benefit from, then i would keep those multis out of it, plus, the main attraction of ortho-mind is pyroglutamic acid which is basically (in terms of MoA) a "Piracetam Lite." Also, be on the lookout for any nootropic that "inhibits platelet aggregation" (piracetam is one of those). Basically, it means it'll thin your blood. Too many of those and then you start running some serious health risks. Ashwagandha is a solid supp, but i would place it more under the anti-anxiety supps than cognition enhancers.

For a basic start-out stack, i would begin with
1) a good quality Omega 3 supplement - I personally prefer DHA heavy omega-3 supps, but they're the more expensive kind. For convenience, go w/capsules. For more-bang-for-your-buck, go with bottled fish oil. All studies seem to show that it starts to show its recordable benefits after 6 weeks of use. make sure it's molecularly distilled. note: has a blood thinning effect
2) green tea - natural source for theanine and EGCG acts as the only natural aromatic l-amino acid decarboxylase inhibitor known currently. if you want to know what that means, look up "carbidopa"
3) Acetyl-L-Carnitine - maybe something along the lines of 1500mg a day (and that's being liberal). If money isn't an issue, you could go with the arginate version. take it on an empty stomach. I think there was a study posted in the supplements section that showed fighter pilots who took 1500mg a day had a 400% increase in hand-eye coordination. I think the absorption limit was somewhere near 500mg at one time (though, i may be confusing that with beta alanine) but i can't find the link to support that so don't take my word for it.
4) A choline source of your choosing if you REALLY feel like you want to experiment [but i'd do it at least after 6 weeks of alcar, personally]. There are so many different forms you can buy that it's really up to you. I'm only going to recommend against Alpha-GPC for 2 reasons: 1) it's overpriced for serving the same function as other cholines but just at a lower dosage 2) it's effect on growth hormone, which could be problematic in a young guy.

notice how piracetam isn't on that list. I wouldn't move on to piracetam until you've had your feet in the water for a little bit. the racetams seem to have unpredictable effects from user to user, and for some, it's just ineffective at all. I'd go with the safer, and generally more accepted ones. I know it's not as "exciting" as taking some strange sounding compound like "piracetam" or "1,3 dimethylethylamylamine" and the like, but this is your brain we're dealing with. If you haven't browsed the most recent 5 pages or so, in this subforum, do so. You'll see that most nootropics can yield inconsistent results from person to person, and you can't always rely on anecdotal support.

[nito]

i have a b complex bottle and also soluble vitamin b mixed with vitamin c pills. I was thinking of buying now ADAMS multi from iherb, do you think its necessary?

[reng]

Thanks for the response, this definitely helps. So would you recommend against taking any daily multi? I have been taking a knock off of something like GNC ultra mega ( I know it is basically a multi/b-complex in one). Are these less expensive multi's fine? Everyone is saying don't shell out for Orhto- What should I shell out for then?

Previously I have taken the Piracetam/Centrophenoxine combo, taking Piracetam alone was unnoticeable until I added the Centro (this was after a loading phase and several weeks of Piracetam alone). I was not taking choline because I read that if you eat enough meat (red if I remember?) you'll get a fair amount of choline, and I love meat. What choline do you take/recommend besides NOT taking the alpha GPC?

For green tea- do you actually drink it or take an extract/supplement form of it?

I rock climb/ run 3-4 times a week, that is about as much time as I can permit for exercise. Occasionally weight training, but less now that I am climbing and this seems to be pretty good anabolically. I usually follow this up with good quality 30-60 grams protein and a little creatine. I also take tuna oil omega-3.

Now I am thinking Piracetam, choline, vinpocetine (info in Smart Drugs and Nutrients seemed good-although I'm guessing this book is outdated...), Al-car. Added one at a time. Possibly Centro. What is choline's effect on HGH?

Anyone have opinions on pyritinol, PEA, rhodiola, and cocamine? I went to the all mighty wikipedia (sarcastic tone), but it had limited info-- Zoroaster, do you have some info. sources on these that are non-biased? It looked lik pyritinol was very similar to some B's??

Thanks again!
-Rg

[Zoroaster]

Now I am thinking Piracetam, choline, vinpocetine (info in Smart Drugs and Nutrients seemed good-although I'm guessing this book is outdated...), Al-car. Added one at a time. Possibly Centro. What is choline's effect on HGH?

Anyone have opinions on pyritinol, PEA, rhodiola, and cocamine? I went to the all mighty wikipedia (sarcastic tone), but it had limited info-- Zoroaster, do you have some info. sources on these that are non-biased? It looked lik pyritinol was very similar to some B's??

I think that whether or not you should take a multi depends on your diet. If you're getting like 5 fruits and vegetable a day, or close to it, and you're eating a variety of healthy foods, then I wouldn't worry too much about it. But most people probably aren't doing that, in which case a multivitamin could help. Either way its not going to hurt, and they're cheap, so if you're on the fence I'd just go ahead and take a multi.

I think one of the easiest ways to get good info is to use scholar.google.com. If you're accustomed to reading scientific literature you can find some good stuff there on each of those substances. Just remember to search for Phenylethylamine for PEA and cocoa extract for cocamine. Another great source of info is the search function of this forum. Especially if you're looking for personal experiences. Its sometimes helpful to check the "search titles only" box to find entire threads dedicated to what you're searching for.

As for pyritinol, PEA, rhodiola, and cocamine, I wouldn't necessarily take all of those at the same time. But I've cycled through all of those repeatedly during different phases of life. Most of my love for pyritinol is based on my subjective experiences, though it does have some solid research behind it. Its similar in form to B6 but not anything close in function. It doesn't help memory too much but when taking it I notice a dramatic increase in processing speed. Maybe I'm an outlier or something but the results are pretty phenomenal for me. Its like time is going slower all day long. When I've taken tests while using it I've finished in like 2/3 the time. I used to do micro labs while using it and I'd finish 30 minutes before anybody else in the class, when without it I'd finish pretty much in the middle of the pack. And I didn't even feel like I was rushing at all, I just figured everything out much faster without even really realizing it. Pretty cool stuff.

Rhodiola is an adaptogen that has also been shown to improve memory and cognition somewhat when taken over the long term. Not the strongest nootropic, but great in the overall mood and anxiety category. PEA is another one that has dramatic, very noticeable effects for me. Its both calming and focusing. Cocamine is just a cocoa extract that's a mixture of lots of different stuff. It has caffeine, theobromines, PEA, lots of antioxidants, Phenylalanine, and other good stuff. Its kind of a natural all-in-one really. Its a little heavy on the stimulating side and that's mostly how I use it, as a stimulant with benefits.