8 replies to this topic

[exapted]

Note: This is not meant simply as an insult. Yes it is insulting to certain religious people, but I think it is warranted. I can support all points with quotes and references to literature, and references to real events in society.

I don't really think it matters a whole lot whether there is a god or not, what makes a much bigger difference are the symptoms of religion.

Modern religion says:
Turn the other cheek, be modest, obey your leaders (except when it contradicts your religion), devote your resources towards helping the weakest instead of the strongest.

This encourages the following attitudes:
Society embodies a cyclical process with certain pillars which are not supposed to change (the overall structure of society), technology is mainly important in how it helps the weakest or in how it promotes traditional forms of social organization, strength power or assertiveness are not virtues, there is an (imaginary or actual) "alternative world" or "background world" which is somehow ideal, there are "ultimate causes" for people and the universe.

This leads to the following behaviors:
Suicide (due to depression, for terrorism, etc. - there is an "alternate world" to compare this world against unfavorably), conformity (society is cyclical, on some level it's basis is unchanging), stupidity (lack of scientific achievement, why bother anyway? reality is the "spiritual"), harshness towards some subset of criminals (they have "free will", others are simply "ill" - we could include this in 'stupidity')

This sickens society:
Modern religion is parasitic, preying on a person's weakness, sometimes in a benign manner, often not. Religion limits society more than necessary. Religion makes people more willing to die. Religion generally squelches and saps the real human 'spirit' (our drives which make us stronger and better).

Modern religion is like genocide with impunity, only worse.

Thoughts? (I mean it - I will openly discuss and I will change my mind where I am shown to be wrong. Thank you respectfully.)

[exapted]

Modern religion is shifty:
When it comes to resolving social problems, religion turns the process into a game. don't do this, better do that, or you'll have a bad death; but if you dominate people with economic instruments, certain technologies, or pure wit, then it is all deserved as long as the rich ones give a certain paltry amount to everyone and take on certain spiritual and moral values that reassure society. in other words, everything is deserved. this is a carefully constructed false belief. people seem to be behaving in a very clear set of geometrical patterns, somewhat obvious in their purposes. when you ask them if they are doing such and such, they say no to themselves and others.

Modern religion interferes with understanding in general, especially about the mind:
Some religious people emanate a very slight revulsion towards anyone who intellectually or emotionally threatens their view. rejecting criticism with explanations based on things that don't exist, forming a personal system of unsupported assertions. understanding human nature is supposedly an inherently futile task because what really matters is the soul, spirit, whatever, we can call it "●". but they still want to do experiments and "find" ● - instead of finding the most logical features of the human mind, improving them and getting well. religion doesn't want us to improve.

[Shiroe]

Modern religion is shifty:
When it comes to resolving social problems, religion turns the process into a game. don't do this, better do that, or you'll have a bad death; but if you dominate people with economic instruments, certain technologies, or pure wit, then it is all deserved as long as the rich ones give a certain paltry amount to everyone and take on certain spiritual and moral values that reassure society. in other words, everything is deserved. this is a carefully constructed false belief. people seem to be behaving in a very clear set of geometrical patterns, somewhat obvious in their purposes. when you ask them if they are doing such and such, they say no to themselves and others.

Modern religion interferes with understanding in general, especially about the mind:
Some religious people emanate a very slight revulsion towards anyone who intellectually or emotionally threatens their view. rejecting criticism with explanations based on things that don't exist, forming a personal system of unsupported assertions. understanding human nature is supposedly an inherently futile task because what really matters is the soul, spirit, whatever, we can call it "●". but they still want to do experiments and "find" ● - instead of finding the most logical features of the human mind, improving them and getting well. religion doesn't want us to improve.

Christianity is not the only modern religion out there. Many of the dogmas you are criticizing are Christian only.

That said, the problem with religion is not belief in God or following religious tenets, but the hierarchy of the organization. God is a very powerful overseer to his slaves, and slaves of God can be made simply by threatening people who believe it that if they don't do what the clergyman says, they're going to hell, or some other awful place. This is as true of Wicca as it is Christianity or any other hierarchal religion. The organization itself is about control.

[exapted]

Modern religion is shifty:
When it comes to resolving social problems, religion turns the process into a game. don't do this, better do that, or you'll have a bad death; but if you dominate people with economic instruments, certain technologies, or pure wit, then it is all deserved as long as the rich ones give a certain paltry amount to everyone and take on certain spiritual and moral values that reassure society. in other words, everything is deserved. this is a carefully constructed false belief. people seem to be behaving in a very clear set of geometrical patterns, somewhat obvious in their purposes. when you ask them if they are doing such and such, they say no to themselves and others.

Modern religion interferes with understanding in general, especially about the mind:
Some religious people emanate a very slight revulsion towards anyone who intellectually or emotionally threatens their view. rejecting criticism with explanations based on things that don't exist, forming a personal system of unsupported assertions. understanding human nature is supposedly an inherently futile task because what really matters is the soul, spirit, whatever, we can call it "●". but they still want to do experiments and "find" ● - instead of finding the most logical features of the human mind, improving them and getting well. religion doesn't want us to improve.

Christianity is not the only modern religion out there. Many of the dogmas you are criticizing are Christian only.

That said, the problem with religion is not belief in God or following religious tenets, but the hierarchy of the organization. God is a very powerful overseer to his slaves, and slaves of God can be made simply by threatening people who believe it that if they don't do what the clergyman says, they're going to hell, or some other awful place. This is as true of Wicca as it is Christianity or any other hierarchal religion. The organization itself is about control.

I think Buddhism has a lot of exceptions:
Buddhists I have met have been religious dualists. No soul, they said. But I think there is a belief in an underlying fabric of a person. And buddha always seemed very god-like. I always got the feeling that buddha was much more cleverly situated than god. Buddha is supposed to be this thing that you can deny and insult, and that should actually invoke reverence for him. I did read about Buddhism as related to the denial or disrespect of religious symbols. The way that Buddhism deals with this issue is amazing. And Buddhism is much more constructive than Christianity. It provides a much better view of how people work. It's not based as much on charity as on balance and health. Buddhism does not restrict science. Nothing is morally taboo. There are political taboos, but not moral.

But the rest of the stuff is pretty much true of all modern world religions.

And I don't know if actual political hierarchy is the problem. Islam is less hierarchical than both catholicism and protestantism, Islam is still powerful. But I guess you meant the way things are decided. Science can be politically hierarchical, but ultimately almost anyone can exert their will, if it makes sense. I think there are many other problems in religion. One we could call "The belief in the thing-in-itself". For example I think whole brain emulation and AI are actually widely known, but seem utterly insignificant to most people, so they easily forget about it. They believe in the thing-in-itself, so there is no point to proceed. Science can only get to the thing-in-itself, then it supposedly must fail. I think Buddhism can actually encourage this viewpoint.

Edited by exapted, 28 September 2009 - 12:54 AM.

[Shiroe]

Modern religion is shifty:
When it comes to resolving social problems, religion turns the process into a game. don't do this, better do that, or you'll have a bad death; but if you dominate people with economic instruments, certain technologies, or pure wit, then it is all deserved as long as the rich ones give a certain paltry amount to everyone and take on certain spiritual and moral values that reassure society. in other words, everything is deserved. this is a carefully constructed false belief. people seem to be behaving in a very clear set of geometrical patterns, somewhat obvious in their purposes. when you ask them if they are doing such and such, they say no to themselves and others.

Modern religion interferes with understanding in general, especially about the mind:
Some religious people emanate a very slight revulsion towards anyone who intellectually or emotionally threatens their view. rejecting criticism with explanations based on things that don't exist, forming a personal system of unsupported assertions. understanding human nature is supposedly an inherently futile task because what really matters is the soul, spirit, whatever, we can call it "●". but they still want to do experiments and "find" ● - instead of finding the most logical features of the human mind, improving them and getting well. religion doesn't want us to improve.

Christianity is not the only modern religion out there. Many of the dogmas you are criticizing are Christian only.

That said, the problem with religion is not belief in God or following religious tenets, but the hierarchy of the organization. God is a very powerful overseer to his slaves, and slaves of God can be made simply by threatening people who believe it that if they don't do what the clergyman says, they're going to hell, or some other awful place. This is as true of Wicca as it is Christianity or any other hierarchal religion. The organization itself is about control.

I think Buddhism has a lot of exceptions:
Buddhists I have met have been religious dualists. No soul, they said. But I think there is a belief in an underlying fabric of a person. And buddha always seemed very god-like. I always got the feeling that buddha was much more cleverly situated than god. Buddha is supposed to be this thing that you can deny and insult, and that should actually invoke reverence for him. I did read about Buddhism as related to the denial or disrespect of religious symbols. The way that Buddhism deals with this issue is amazing. And Buddhism is much more constructive than Christianity. It provides a much better view of how people work. It's not based as much on charity as on balance and health. Buddhism does not restrict science. Nothing is morally taboo. There are political taboos, but not moral.

But the rest of the stuff is pretty much true of all modern world religions.

And I don't know if actual political hierarchy is the problem. Islam is less hierarchical than both catholicism and protestantism, Islam is still powerful. But I guess you meant the way things are decided. Science can be politically hierarchical, but ultimately almost anyone can exert their will, if it makes sense. I think there are many other problems in religion. One we could call "The belief in the thing-in-itself". For example I think whole brain emulation and AI are actually widely known, but seem utterly insignificant to most people, so they easily forget about it. They believe in the thing-in-itself, so there is no point to proceed. Science can only get to the thing-in-itself, then it supposedly must fail. I think Buddhism can actually encourage this viewpoint.

I agree with you about buddhism but disagree about Islam. They may be less hierarchal, but the mullahs hold the same amount of power as the Christian hierarchy. I lived in the era of Ayatollah Kumeni.

The reason I blame the hierarchy is because it takes accountability away from the congregation. As long as they listen to the hierarchy they can do no wrong, even if the hierarchy is telling them things which are completely immoral. So basically you can be a total a-hole here on Earth, as long as you listen to the hierarchy and do everything they say to do you have a free ticket to the Good Place. In Judeo-Christianity, this translates into the rape of our environment, even knowing that doing so will eventually poison humanity. In Islam, this translates into the killing of innocent "heretics." In Wicca, even, this translates into a revisionist history in which "millions of witches" were burned at the stake between the 14th and 17th centuries. And etc.

[exapted]

There may effectively be a hierarchy in Islam, but it's not designed into Islam to quite the same degree as in Catholicism. The Catholic Church does seem to have a greater number of levels in it's hierarchy. So if Catholicism is not as hierarchical as Islam, then I think we are referring to something that we haven't quite defined. I would wonder, which country is more to blame and for what kind of hierarchy, Catholicism or Islam? Maybe it's more about the level trust and fear for religious authority, or even the worship of religious authority. I'm not sure whether Catholicism or Islam has more of that. Certainly protestantism has less of that, but I'm not convinced that protestant countries are generally robust and powerful as a result of Christianity. And it is arguable that Christian countries have been just as barbarous as Islamic countries.

Edited by exapted, 30 September 2009 - 07:05 AM.

[exapted]

I see your point. But I wonder how much western criticism of Islam is a result of how poor are the majority of people in muslim countries. Maybe the real difference is that there is no separation of church and state in many muslim countries, where there is at least some separation in the vast majority of Christian countries.

I think it would be more accurate to say that muslim countries have high unemployment and a high male:female ratio, and therefore there is a lot of strife in muslim countries. And they have oil. So somehow people in Islamic countries are attached to a more authoritarian (yet flat and diffuse) religious organization. In stable countries with better economies, there is a more democratic approach to religion, the government does not get as involved, your beliefs are a more private matter.

But I think my criticism of modern religion is not just that there are some negative aspects, but that there is nothing actually redeeming about it. Sure, religion works differently in different countries, for a variety of reasons. Looking for places in which religion seems especially to be an enabler of violence, ignorance, etc. means looking for "side effects" or "symptoms" of modern religion. I am saying that generally, the world would be better if it transformed such that modern religion ceased to exist in any form. I don't like the supposedly benign effects of religion in western countries, and I think even the non-religious are indirectly affected by the religious view and the taxonomy of life promoted by christianity and all of the institutions it has influenced.

Edited by exapted, 30 September 2009 - 07:51 AM.

[Shiroe]

There may effectively be a hierarchy in Islam, but it's not designed into Islam to quite the same degree as in Catholicism. The Catholic Church does seem to have a greater number of levels in it's hierarchy. So if Catholicism is not as hierarchical as Islam, then I think we are referring to something that we haven't quite defined. I would wonder, which country is more to blame and for what kind of hierarchy, Catholicism or Islam? Maybe it's more about the level trust and fear for religious authority, or even the worship of religious authority. I'm not sure whether Catholicism or Islam has more of that. Certainly protestantism has less of that, but I'm not convinced that protestant countries are generally robust and powerful as a result of Christianity. And it is arguable that Christian countries have been just as barbarous as Islamic countries.

LOL to that last statement. It's not arguable, it's historical fact! (By the way, I'm laughing WITH you, not AT you. I'm enjoying this discussion, but then again spirituality is my thing.)

Personally, ANY religious hierarchy is wrong, regardless of how many levels it has. The only way religion should be transmitted is by calling your clergyman to guide you individually through spiritual exercise. A clergyman is like a personal trainer, except in a spiritual sense. No hierarchy needed.

Ugh, I'd give the rest of thse two posts the attention they deserve but I'm running a fever and need to lay down. It looks like we agree on many solid points about this, though. I'll be back later when my brain is functioning at full capacity....

Edited by Shiroe, 30 September 2009 - 11:51 PM.

[Teixeira]

Note: This is not meant simply as an insult. Yes it is insulting to certain religious people, but I think it is warranted. I can support all points with quotes and references to literature, and references to real events in society.

I don't really think it matters a whole lot whether there is a god or not, what makes a much bigger difference are the symptoms of religion.

Modern religion says:
Turn the other cheek, be modest, obey your leaders (except when it contradicts your religion), devote your resources towards helping the weakest instead of the strongest.

This encourages the following attitudes:
Society embodies a cyclical process with certain pillars which are not supposed to change (the overall structure of society), technology is mainly important in how it helps the weakest or in how it promotes traditional forms of social organization, strength power or assertiveness are not virtues, there is an (imaginary or actual) "alternative world" or "background world" which is somehow ideal, there are "ultimate causes" for people and the universe.

This leads to the following behaviors:
Suicide (due to depression, for terrorism, etc. - there is an "alternate world" to compare this world against unfavorably), conformity (society is cyclical, on some level it's basis is unchanging), stupidity (lack of scientific achievement, why bother anyway? reality is the "spiritual"), harshness towards some subset of criminals (they have "free will", others are simply "ill" - we could include this in 'stupidity')

This sickens society:
Modern religion is parasitic, preying on a person's weakness, sometimes in a benign manner, often not. Religion limits society more than necessary. Religion makes people more willing to die. Religion generally squelches and saps the real human 'spirit' (our drives which make us stronger and better).

Modern religion is like genocide with impunity, only worse.

Thoughts? (I mean it - I will openly discuss and I will change my mind where I am shown to be wrong. Thank you respectfully.)

And what does God had to do with that? My faith in God had make me very critical about politicians, about society, about established ideas. I don´t see how this fits your ideas!