Recommendations on Nootropics

Started by , Mar 21 2004 04:57 AM

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#1

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:57 AM

Well I'd like to hear the recommendations from some of the self-experimenters on this board as to nootropics to take to improve congition and memory. I'll specifically outline my areas where I'd like to improve and possible see if there is a nootropic to match that area.

I'm looking to improve in:

1) memory and comprehension, in both rate and amount
2) grasp of mathematical concepts, in both rate and complexity

Now obviously I'm not totally new to the arena of nootropics or congnition enhancers and I hope I'm not coming off as naive but I'm outlining these goals to see what those who've had substantial experience with these supplements recommend.

Here's what I have so far:

Vassopressin is one supplement that's l've placed on order, I've ordered it for improved memory and/or comprehension as I've seen some good results from websites and testimonials. It's coming in a nasal spray, which allow for a quicker route to the brain and higher absorption.

Piracetam - considering ordering this because of it's low or almost null toxicity, the tubs are relatively well priced, and besides being one of the old and most well known nootropics it does seem to work at attack doses, again according to testimonials, and various websites.

Ok now let's here your suggestions, you can list them by supplement and dosage. If you wish to comment on what supplements will specifically help in some areas of intelligence please do I want to take advantage of this community of knowledge. TIA.

edit: I wanted to mention that I was planning to order Primacetam since it is said to be one of the strongest analogues of Piracetam but it is very hard to find, if you have any comments on this as well I'd love to hear them

#2

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 08:52 PM

Here's a Nootropic regiment I've created, I've not implemented it yet but I'm posting it here for comment.

Hydergine
------4.5mg twice daily (high dose), may lower dose if necessary

Piracetam (replaced with Primacetam if I can get my hands on it)
------attack dose for 2-3 week duration: 4800mg
------continouse dose after that: 3200-3600mg

Vassopressin
------2.5mL nasal spray - used sparingly, this might be dropped from the regiment once I run out, depends on how ------effective it is

Vinpocetone - undecided dosage

Choline - undecided dosage

I'll implement this regiment 6 out of 7 days a week, taking the off day as Sunday. I prefer this over 1 week off every month because I'd like to maintain maximum period of peek performance. I want to avoid a tolerance to these supplements.

#3 storm

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 01:39 AM

I think it looks good, however, I have yet to try Hydergine and Vassopressin.

I really like Vinpocetine and use 30-40mg daily with decent results.

I also use CDP Choline as my Choline source at 400-600mg daily.

Here is my daily Nootropic regiment:

2500mg Piracetam
400-600mg CDP Choline
30-40mg Vinpocetine
1000-2000mg daily ALCAR (I up the dosage to 3000mg on workout days)
50-100mcg Huperzine A
1000-1500mg Rhodiola Rosea
500mg B-5

I also take 1 week off a month to avoid tolerance but still take ALCAR and Rhodiola daily.

Some days I will throw in 1000mg of L-Tyrosine.

storm

#4 bacopa

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 08:15 AM

Nootropics aren't all they're cracked up to be they can cause depression, and don't guarantee a jump in IQ that comes from focusing and knowing what the hell you're talking about!

Remember you can have the most stimulated mind possible but this doesn't necassarily mean you will 'think' better, or be able to understand complex concepts any better! Smartness comes from doing the actual thinking which can be augmented by simply taking a stimulant or drinking green tea and excercising and having good diet and nutrition.

AS far as I'm concerned nootropics are more of a fun hobby rather than a way to really increase intelligence. The only way to increase intelligence is to read, write, think repeat network etc. maybe some Nootropics contribute to greater mental clarity resulting in better memory, and perhaps they can act as a cognitive boost enabling you to focus somewhat better.

Some of the smartest folks I've met have not been Nootropic users keep that in mind. Michael Anissimov simply drinks coffee, while BJKlein does use Nootropics. I've experimented with the Get Smart formula and Piracetam and vinpocetine. Vinpocenitne did seem to help my memory

So I would say

1800mg Piracetam
1 or 2 pills from the Get Smart Formula
39 mg of Vinpocetine
maybe some choline which is a weak nootropic
pyritinol forget how much
haven't tried Hydergine or Vassopressin are they good?

#5 bacopa

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 08:55 AM

However you may also want to take a stimulant like Provigil or Super energy up formula that you can get at a vitamin store

Here's why. The nootropics stimulate the brain but in such a way that it is not as extreme as a good stimulant. some of my best thinking is done when I have a ton of energy that I can exert on the task at hand.

Nootropics increase blood flow to the brain and maybe stimulate, in god knows how, the synapses and neurons in the brain. However this alone doesn't seem to do the trick because it can lead to a depressed state which will make it more difficult to stay stimulated in what you are doing.

so on second thought

1800mg Piracatem
30mg Vinpocetine
400-600mg of CDP Choline
Gingo, panax Ginseng (not too much)

and could someone tell me the benefits of Hydergine, Vassopressin and
these?

1000-2000mg daily ALCAR (I up the dosage to 3000mg on workout days)
50-100mcg Huperzine A
1000-1500mg Rhodiola Rosea
500mg B-5

#6

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 09:47 AM

Hydergine was thrown in there because supposedly it's synergistic with Piracetam and the overall effectiveness increased when taking both. Vassopressin seems to markedly improve memory for a few hours according to what I've read, it should be good study aid in my opinion.

dflower your assessments of nootropics, at least the ones available today, is that they are not all they're cracked up to be. I would argue that taken in a regiment they are in fact substantial enough to note. If I can feel more energetic in thought proceses and can focus much better on the task at hand I will have achieved the two goals I outlined, however they still may not help in grasping mathematical concepts in abstractness but rather only in rate. You see structural changes to the brain come with practicing a skill and while Nootropics of today don't necessarily increase intelligence they maximize the performance of your brain so that you're at a peak state to absorb knowledge, I want to be at this state.

#7 bacopa

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 10:02 AM

right that's what I was getting at well put...for me stimulants can also do the trick albeit more tension

#8 pSimonKey

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 10:17 AM

I have found that nootropics can make me a little too introverted sometimes or too focused, 100mg of 5Htp and magnesium helped, and for that extra bit of energy NAL-Tyrosine and chocolate work great for me. I also think that I have to "apply" nootropic's to a task otherwise I suppose I may better learn bad habits. I try to keep doses to a minimum but take a broad range of suppliments.(see profile)
Learning about how these chemicals interact with me has rewarded me with the ability to choose which one for what use. In general ensure a solid foundation ie, good food, exercise and relaxation/meditation. Suppliment with lecithin, hemp oil, a good protein source and anti-Os.
I agree with dfowler as regards dosage, you may want to try Gynestemma pentaphyllum for it's adaptogen qualities (in China it is often called the "herb of immortality" too) and some Alpha lipoic acid to go with that ALCAR.
Shine on ;- )

http://smart-drugs.c...n-Hydergine.htm
http://nootropics.co...ssin/index.html

#9

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 10:26 AM

I do hope one day, 10 or 15 years from now there are some supplments which substantially improve intelligence beyond simply stimulating or optimizing the brain's performance. My longterm goal is to think beyond the genetic paramaters of my brain, you cannot exercise some of the higher thought processes to become significantly better, at a point they simply are restricted, and some people are naturally geniouses and their skill cannot be matched through practice. If for instance a drug can emulate the function of some unique or more abudundant gene of theirs which adds to their overall intelligence it may provide genious level intelligence to the masses.

Jim Watson, the man who discovered the double helix, said in an interview on PBS that essentially intelligence is no more than the passing down of genes from parents to child and that he believes for our society to be truely be equal there needs to be a way for every person to pursue the route of higher intelligence if they choose so. In this politically correct world of equality for all there are fields of study that are simply out of reach to people with average or below average intelligence.

Anyway I'll work out of regiment that works for me, at the first signs of depression I'll experiment with dosage and supplement to find which supplement is causing that and remove it.

#10 storm

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 04:11 PM

However you may also want to take a stimulant like Provigil or Super energy up formula that you can get at a vitamin store

Here's why. The nootropics stimulate the brain but in such a way that it is not as extreme as a good stimulant. some of my best thinking is done when I have a ton of energy that I can exert on the task at hand.

Nootropics increase blood flow to the brain and maybe stimulate, in god knows how, the synapses and neurons in the brain. However this alone doesn't seem to do the trick because it can lead to a depressed state which will make it more difficult to stay stimulated in what you are doing.

so on second thought

1800mg Piracatem
30mg Vinpocetine
400-600mg of CDP Choline
Gingo, panax Ginseng (not too much)

and could someone tell me the benefits of Hydergine, Vassopressin and
these?

1000-2000mg daily ALCAR (I up the dosage to 3000mg on workout days)
50-100mcg Huperzine A
1000-1500mg Rhodiola Rosea
500mg B-5

There are some great articles on Huperzine A and ALCAR at www.smart-drugs.com

And this is a great site for Rhodiola www.rhodiolarosea.org

storm

#11 Mind

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 06:54 PM

I take gingko, vinpocetine, and chocolate.

I feel vinpocetine has the greatest affect on me. I concentrate better and it makes me slightly happier.

I take chocolate as a stimulant and for health reasons. I eat the unsweetened chocolate in order to avoid the sugar (often called "baker's" chocolate). One small chunk of baker's chocolate has about the same caffeine content as 1/3 cup of black coffee. A word of caution, the unsweetened chocolate tastes like crap...very bitter. It is definitely an aquired taste.

#12 chomsky

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 08:23 PM

For anyone taking Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR), make sure you include Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA). The reason being that ALCAR can generate free radicals by increased interaction with the mitochondria of cells. In fact, ALA is a good idea to take when supplementing with any anti-oxidant, because when Vitamins C, E and ubiquinone neutralize a free radical, the antioxidant molecule itself becomes a free radical unless it is properly "recycled", which is what ALA apparently does.

"Further, alpha-lipoic acid and its redox couple DHLA have been found to have antioxidant activity in aqueous, as well as in lipophilic regions, and in extracellular and intracellular environments. Finally, with regard to alpha-lipoic acid's antioxidant activity, alpha-lipoic acid appears to participate in the recycling of other important biologic antioxidants, such as vitamins E and C, ubiquinone and glutathione." (PDR)

Another thing, a lot of the purported "nootropics" will generally only help to a significant degree if you have some kind of existent defect in one or more affected areas of cognitive function. So, for example, if you suffer from a cholinergic deficit and therefore CNS acetylcholine transmission levels are pathologically low, supplementing with an acetylcholine-esterase inhibitor such as Huperzine A or Galantamine will help bring you back to normal, baseline levels. Or, if you suffer from catecholamine deficit (the neurotransmitters dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine) supplementation with tyrosine could help restore healthy levels.

If you do not have deficits in relation to cognitive ability, smart drugs may help a little but are unlikely to cause a significant change. Increasing cholinergic or catecholminergic transmission above baseline levels is a controversial way to increase general alertness and motivational drive. So, for example, ALCAR has been shown to be cholinomemetic, meaning the molecule is similar enough to acetylcholine that it can "mimic" that neurotransmitter at the receptor site. However, this results in "tricking" your body into thinking your acetylcholine levels are sufficient and it decreases the uptake and therefore biogenic synthesis of acetylcholine. When you go off the ALCAR, your body no longer has the "mimicking" molecule, and you are left with a state of disequilibrium in the cholinergic system, which will probably restore itself to normal levels in a matter of time. This is just one of many examples in which smart drugs can affect your system in ways that at first seem nice, but when you go off the drug or supplement, are left with a period of uncomfortable adjustment. Just like any other medication regiment, you have to apply cost-benefit analysis to your smart drug intake, weighing the benefits to the tolerability of the side effects.

#13 storm

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 11:07 PM

For anyone taking Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR), make sure you include Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA). The reason being that ALCAR can generate free radicals by increased interaction with the mitochondria of cells. In fact, ALA is a good idea to take when supplementing with any anti-oxidant, because when Vitamins C, E and ubiquinone neutralize a free radical, the antioxidant molecule itself becomes a free radical unless it is properly "recycled", which is what ALA apparently does.

"Further, alpha-lipoic acid and its redox couple DHLA have been found to have antioxidant activity in aqueous, as well as in lipophilic regions, and in extracellular and intracellular environments. Finally, with regard to alpha-lipoic acid's antioxidant activity, alpha-lipoic acid appears to participate in the recycling of other important biologic antioxidants, such as vitamins E and C, ubiquinone and glutathione." (PDR)

Another thing, a lot of the purported "nootropics" will generally only help to a significant degree if you have some kind of existent defect in one or more affected areas of cognitive function. So, for example, if you suffer from a cholinergic deficit and therefore CNS acetylcholine transmission levels are pathologically low, supplementing with an acetylcholine-esterase inhibitor such as Huperzine A or Galantamine will help bring you back to normal, baseline levels. Or, if you suffer from catecholamine deficit (the neurotransmitters dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine) supplementation with tyrosine could help restore healthy levels.

If you do not have deficits in relation to cognitive ability, smart drugs may help a little but are unlikely to cause a significant change. Increasing cholinergic or catecholminergic transmission above baseline levels is a controversial way to increase general alertness and motivational drive. So, for example, ALCAR has been shown to be cholinomemetic, meaning the molecule is similar enough to acetylcholine that it can "mimic" that neurotransmitter at the receptor site. However, this results in "tricking" your body into thinking your acetylcholine levels are sufficient and it decreases the uptake and therefore biogenic synthesis of acetylcholine. When you go off the ALCAR, your body no longer has the "mimicking" molecule, and you are left with a state of disequilibrium in the cholinergic system, which will probably restore itself to normal levels in a matter of time. This is just one of many examples in which smart drugs can affect your system in ways that at first seem nice, but when you go off the drug or supplement, are left with a period of uncomfortable adjustment. Just like any other medication regiment, you have to apply cost-benefit analysis to your smart drug intake, weighing the benefits to the tolerability of the side effects.

Chomsky,

Good information...I take R-ALA daily, do you any studies or info as to whether R-ALA or ALA work in the same fashion when taken with ALCAR?

storm

#14

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 10:44 AM

Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR) and Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA), are these really necessary. Remember I want to optimize my capabities in various tasks, outlined at the beginning of this thread. The stimulant effect is nice and relatively effective but it's not the only effect I'm looking for, Ritalin functions essentially to increase attention span for specific tasks, some university students take it to be able to concetrate on studying for long periods of time. Obviously I want to avoid this drug because it's illegal to take without a prescription, and it's side effects can be unworthy of the gain.

[Mind: I take gingko, vinpocetine, and chocolate.

I feel vinpocetine has the greatest affect on me. I concentrate better and it makes me slightly happier.]

The suggestion for vinpocetine is one I have noted and I'm considering taking it as well. I want the best regiment for studying, understanding and retention of information, and not simply facts but the grasping and excercising of mathematical notions.

edit: the Vassopressin that I've placed on order is in the form of synthetic desmopressin which is stronger than the animal derivative, it's not really good as part of a regiment but when serious studying or focus is needed apparently this is a good supplement. Granted it's main use is for bedwetting I believe, so taking too much fliuds whilin on Demospressin can be disavantagious, or dangerous even since water retention is increased. The effect of it lasts a few hours.

#15 anjatalker

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 08:12 PM

Some of you have mentioned the risk of nootropic use causing depression.

How common is this? What kind of depression are we talking about? Are there some nootropics that are more likely than others to cause depression?

Thanks.

#16 chomsky

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 08:19 PM

R(+) ALA has been shown to inhibit fatty acid oxidation (Metabolism. 2004 Feb;53(2):165-73.) in a rodent model, meaning, it could prevent the oxidation of fat soluble antioxidants such as tocopherol and CoQ10 as a consequence of ALCAR's effects on cell mitochondria.

I would recommend a racemic mix of ALA, to insure the fullest spectrum of anti-oxidant effects.

#17

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 03:24 AM

Anti-oxidants are preventative maintance for the brain, while I appreciate these suggestions I'm still relatively young and I am looking to enhance my abilities over maintainance. I might consider it for the long term but I want cognitive improvements, supplements which will in fact help in memory, comprehension and long term understanding and grasp of that which I study. I have to say some of these suggestions have been quite useful but I'm think there is a little more here than I've found, hopefully LifeMirage will drop by and give his educated opinion.

#18 chomsky

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 04:03 PM

Chomsky,

Good information...I take R-ALA daily, do you any studies or info as to whether R-ALA or ALA work in the same fashion when taken with ALCAR?

storm

I was just responding to Storm's question about R-ALA.

#19 anjatalker

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 06:58 PM

What about the depression claim? Anyone?

#20

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 07:46 PM

anjatalker, I suggest you search the board for "depression" you'll come up with a few topics talking about it. DMAE off the top of my head is one substance that may cause depression in some people, although I really suggesting searching for more info.

#21 anjatalker

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 11:09 PM

Alright, thanks!

#22 bacopa

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 01:46 PM

I find Piracatem can bring me into a semi-focused state that could be likened to depression I don't know the specific neuro causes of this effect but I do know it can decrease my drive to WANT to concentrate. The trick to concentration and retension in mostly in just DOING the necassary reading, re-reading etc. As to how smart one becomes I think anyone can increase there intelligence...There are genetic factors but in the end if you're within the cognitive range of 'normal' albeit average intelligence you can attain 'genius' levels depending how you choose to assimilate and organize information context yourself.

Also Vinpecetine seemed to help my retention levels alittle.... don't know about Ginko other than it tastes bad! I still would go with anything that stimulates the metabolism so you energy levels are up...than maybe Piracatem or some sort of Nootropic to increase focus, concentration attention to detail kind of like a semi 'doped' up state where you can focus on each little thing.

#23

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 09:03 PM

dflower I understand your guarded skepticism as a user of some of these supplements, and you even agree to their portential for increasing rention and comprehension if coupled with good study habits. However I disagree with the attainment of genius level intelligence simply by training your brain, it's true that acedemic rigour can increase intelligence but the gap between normal and genius intelligence 90-110 vs. 140+ is somewhat substantial and not easily bridged as a result of genetic constraints.

#24 noos

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 07:30 PM

very interesting adamp2p

why the huperzine at night?

#25

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 01:37 AM

Fascinating and the best and most optimistic post yet, adamp2p I thank you for this information. I'm not looking for the easy way out and for people to pin that on me because of their stereotypical views is unfair. I will work my own load but I want to get the proper gains from my efforts, the position where you worked several hours a day without making headway must've of been frustrating but I do not want to end up in that position. The point that you make about improving on tests as a result of this medication is the first post I've seen directly correlating nootropics with improved mathematical ability (as a result of improved grasp of concepts).

#26 axiombiological

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 06:09 AM

I carry aniracetam for cheap, along with a few other nootropics. Oxiracetam coming soon.

#27

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 04:05 AM

Aricept has one problem, it's pretty damn expensive and as a student this is a roadblock for me. I think I can find cheaper acetlycholinesterase inhibitors and use them synergistically if necessary to produce the same effect as Aricept.

edit: I would use Aricept if it warranted the price and I had the money, but at least that latter is not the case. If I had decent income I would definitely spend a good amount of it on this and other nootropics to create what I would deem the ultimate nootropic stack for myself. Right now I'm looking for the ultimate 'budget' nootropic stack.

#28

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 12:37 PM

I live in Canada and so meds are already cheap here, if I am prescribed it it won't be a problem. However from the few times I go to my doctor I notice that he is reluctant to prescribe meds unless he feels the need to. Last time I told him about my lack of concentation at times he said 'get more sleep', I felt a bit shot down by this but in reality sleep only does so much for me and I know the benefits I could reap from this medication.

#29

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 04:57 AM

You needed a note at age 23? I think I can get a prescription if I make a big enough point of it.

I see you highly recommend it but what about side effects, are there any, are they substantial.

#30 shpongled

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 07:51 AM

I didn't have time to go over this thread thoroughly but did want to make a few comments, at least on the parts that make sense because half the posts weren't deleted.

-Regarding ALA/ALCAR, that research is somewhat taken out of context. Multiple concentrations of ALCAR in the diet were tested and the mutations only occured with high dietary amounts (much higher than the equivalent supplemental doses in humans). So I don't think there's anything to worry about per se from ALCAR alone. Obviously the two still make an excellent combination.

-Mind, you may want to look into Chocamine. This is a cocoa extract standardized for many of the "mind" actives. Many online stores carry it now.