29 replies to this topic

[harris13.3]

Has there been any talk about what to do with cryonically revived patients? If someone from the Renaissance or the time of the birth of Christ were to appear in today's world, he or she would obviously have a very difficult time fitting into modern society (ie. urban Chicago). However, he or she would probably be able to adapt much more easily into a rural community in a developing country, preferably one where it's inhabitants follow a culture that has resisted modernization and retained ancient traditions. Furthermore, it would be preferable for the community's inhabitants to speak a language that has retained conservative morphological and lexical features (ie. Icelandic).

Even someone born in the 1500's would have a difficult time living in modern society, let alone a caveman. He would probably be illiterate, from a rural background; and have no understanding of key issues such as democracy, separation of church and state, abolition of slavery, civil rights, heliocentric theory, etc. - In fact, even the most progressive, enlightened, intelligent, and educated individuals of the 1500's would find huge difficulties in adjusting to our modern world.

The average American male circa 2009 can be described as: white, completed high school or college, working hours 9 to 5, conservative, creationist, and Republican.

A person frozen today is unlikely to understand the cumulative amount of scientific and technological knowledge gained within the next few centuries (especially if the Singularity Prediction turns out the be correct). Nor is he likely to benefit from the cognitive enhancements made possible by the eventual convergence of neuroscience and nanotechnology. Hence, he or she would be unable to find a place in the new society in the same way a caveman would be unable to find a place in downtown L.A.

Rather, it seems likely to me that most revived patients would feel more comfortable living in specially-designed communities set aside by either Alcor or the future society as "nature reserves" for revived patients that would be the equivalent of modern Amish communities. Here, they will be protected from exploitation and provided with resources to lead independent lives. Meanwhile, the rest of the world would drift further and further away from us (exponentially of course) as our descendents become more and more god-like to us and the gap between homo sapiens (us) and homo superior (them) continues to widen.

[harris13.3]

The OP might be a bit confusing to read so here's a simple analogy...

Imagine you're a Neolithic caveman that had just been revived in today's society. You don't understand the unusual utterings and vocalizations of the scientists in the white lab coats that surround you. You look outside and see thousands of buildings towering over you and cars zooming past you; but they are only weird incomprehensible shapes to you. You're scared and lonely.

Then, you're given an option that will affect you're life forever. The scientists take you to the Amazon rainforest where you get to see members of an uncontacted tribe that have retained a lifestyle and culture that is not too different from your own. The tribe's members are friendly and you're offered the opportunity to live together with the tribe as long as you assume the role of hunting animals - something you're already quite experienced at.

Would you opt to stay in the city surrounded by chaos and confustion or live in the familiar surroundings and habitat of the tribe?

Now imagine you've been just revived in the world of 2200. You don't recognize or understand anything around you. You feel like a helpless lab animal.

Then you're given the option to live in an island that is designed to perfectly replicate the living conditions of 2009! The buildings are made of wood; there are windows, and television sets, mobile phones, and kitchens where you can prepare and cook food on. There are convenience stores, corner dairies, takeaway shops, electronics stores, amusement parks. The speakers play music that you've grown to love and enjoy; Nirvana and the Foo Fighters. The people in this town wear t-shirts and jeans, speak in normal English, go to church, and celebrate Easter and Christmas. Their children go to schools to learn, the elderly retire and play golf.

You've just been given a second chance in life. Why "ruin" it by trying to adapt to a world that you can't comprehend or understand when you can live in an environment that you're 100% familiar with?

[Luke Parrish]

I'm not sure I agree that it would be too overwhelming, but it would be a big culture shock. Like moving to a foreign country. But overall I think it would be a positive experience. There are real-life cases of people moving from tribal societies to the US and adapting quite well.

Of course it depends a lot on who you are and how resistant to change you are. Some people might feel better living in environments that match the "old ways".

[harris13.3]

Agreed. I know this is a simplification but for example, when the Chinese immigrated to the US and Australia, the areas they populated became "Chinatowns" that often replicated the characteristics of their country of origin. Perhaps something similar will occur as people revived from cryonics (most of whom will have no friends) band together to form their own independent communities and only those who are brave enough will venture out.

This would, of course, depend on the revival date (assuming that revival is possible in the first place, of course). A person revived in 2063 will fare much better than a person revived in 2222. Unfortunately, the earliest cryonics patients had severe ice damage so they'll probably be revived last.

[forever freedom]

This is the least of my worries..


Anyways, i don't think adaptation would be a huge problem. The people who revived you will guide you through adaptation. Considering that enhancements will be available by that time, they would just enhance the person's mind and upload to the person's brain whatever info he needs to adapt. If such technologies aren't available by then, then it means we'll not be so radically different than we're now and adapting won't be as hard.

[advancedatheist]

In a way this reminds me of a kid who worries about going to a new school. "What if the kids at the new school don't like me? What if they don't accept me? What if they laugh at me?"

I've also wondered about an alternate scenario where Future World has the technological ability to resuscitate us, but it has also become considerably more conservative and religious. Our resuscitators might belong to the LDS Church and dress like they stepped off the set of "Mad Men."

[Cyberbrain]

Just wanted to pop in and mention that this reminds me of two Star Trek episodes who's theme and message is very relevant to the idea of a revival program:

The Neutral Zone

Who Watches the Watchers

[harris13.3]

This is the least of my worries..


Anyways, i don't think adaptation would be a huge problem. The people who revived you will guide you through adaptation. Considering that enhancements will be available by that time, they would just enhance the person's mind and upload to the person's brain whatever info he needs to adapt. If such technologies aren't available by then, then it means we'll not be so radically different than we're now and adapting won't be as hard.

I'm not quite sure if that would be a good thing though. Mind modification is an enormously controversial issue, even when it's performed on criminals.

A person could be revived in a Stalinist dictatorship and the only way for him to adapt would be to "enhance" the person's mind, thereby violating his right to free thought, etc.

Even if mind and body modifications are commonplace in the future society, the extent of the modifications could be horrifying, mortifying, or "repulsive" to us; . In order to lessen the trauma during revival, it would make sense to keep changes and modifications to a minimum (ie. curing the disease that killed the patient is OK, but boosting his intelligence to superhuman levels or turning a 65 year old into a 25 year old isn't).

[Berserker]

I dontthin they will bring you back to live during a dictatorchip where there is no freedom. If they bring you back to live its becouse the society is a good place and where human lives are very important.

[forever freedom]

This is the least of my worries..


Anyways, i don't think adaptation would be a huge problem. The people who revived you will guide you through adaptation. Considering that enhancements will be available by that time, they would just enhance the person's mind and upload to the person's brain whatever info he needs to adapt. If such technologies aren't available by then, then it means we'll not be so radically different than we're now and adapting won't be as hard.

I'm not quite sure if that would be a good thing though. Mind modification is an enormously controversial issue, even when it's performed on criminals.

A person could be revived in a Stalinist dictatorship and the only way for him to adapt would be to "enhance" the person's mind, thereby violating his right to free thought, etc.

Even if mind and body modifications are commonplace in the future society, the extent of the modifications could be horrifying, mortifying, or "repulsive" to us; . In order to lessen the trauma during revival, it would make sense to keep changes and modifications to a minimum (ie. curing the disease that killed the patient is OK, but boosting his intelligence to superhuman levels or turning a 65 year old into a 25 year old isn't).

Yes, maybe go slow in the beginning, but i'd definitely want to get as intelligent as everyone around me. It'd be even more terrible to feel like a monkey around superhumans, not understanding anything about what's going on around me.

I dontthin they will bring you back to live during a dictatorchip where there is no freedom. If they bring you back to live its becouse the society is a good place and where human lives are very important.

Or because the dominant class wants more slaves, or to psychologically study "ancient" humans.

Edited by forever freedom, 20 October 2009 - 08:26 PM.

[Berserker]

I dont think slavery is relevant either, and they will have robots probably. And about study, well, today we have cameras and plenty of imformation about our era, so i dont think it will be relevant. And also, there are hundred of people singning for cryonics, so maybe they bring back a few to live to study, but not all.

In my opinion if cryonics take place, its becouse the world is a better place.

[advancedatheist]

I dontthin they will bring you back to live during a dictatorchip where there is no freedom. If they bring you back to live its becouse the society is a good place and where human lives are very important.

Or because the dominant class wants more slaves, or to psychologically study "ancient" humans.

Or else their ability to make decisions has atrophied, and they need people from the past to assume leadership over them and tell them what to do.

[advancedatheist]

Has there been any talk about what to do with cryonically revived patients? If someone from the Renaissance or the time of the birth of Christ were to appear in today's world, he or she would obviously have a very difficult time fitting into modern society (ie. urban Chicago). However, he or she would probably be able to adapt much more easily into a rural community in a developing country, preferably one where it's inhabitants follow a culture that has resisted modernization and retained ancient traditions. Furthermore, it would be preferable for the community's inhabitants to speak a language that has retained conservative morphological and lexical features (ie. Icelandic).

The Hmong refugees let into the U.S. effectively stepped several centuries into the future. The elders, who grew up in very primitive conditions, have had trouble adapting, but I suspect they would tell you that they'd rather watch their children and grandchildren grow up speaking a strange tongue in a strange land, than not seeing them live at all.

http://en.wikipedia..../Hmong_American

[Neurosail]

Cryonic Recovery



(To be read by patients after revival...)

Research has proved that there is no degeneration of memory over the time spent in cryonics suspension. Otherwise, you would not be able to read this. You have to relay upon what you are, who you are, and what your surroundings tell you are. It is disorienting. What you must do is accept that you have suffered a trauma, and learn to live your life again. As time goes by, you will become more accustomed to your new body and your surroundings, and feel less socially alienated. You will normalise. You will feel as though you were born here, and your past life and that which went with it was a purely intellectual memory experience. It almost seems as if all of your past happened to someone else, and that you just watch it unfold. That is true of all cryonics suspension patients. So, do not give up hope! The biological effects adjust and remake the psyche; this is part of the change process. Much of your personality and behaviour is because of such mental aptitudes. Time will reassure your mind with your new body, and it is for the best.



edit: spelling

Edited by Jimmy, 22 October 2009 - 07:57 AM.

[Mind]

I like this forward thinking discussion. I have seen this issue dealt with in sci-fi novels a few times.

IMO cryoncists should be planning (right now) for ways help those re-animated adjust to new surroundings/society. There should be procedures in place that respect individual rights.

[cyborgdreamer]

Cryonic Recovery



(To be read by patients after revival...)

Research has proved that there is no degeneration of memory over the time spent in cryonics suspension. Otherwise, you would not be able to read this. You have to relay upon what you are, who you are, and what your surroundings tell you are. It is disorienting. What you must do is accept that you have suffered a trauma, and learn to live your life again. As time goes by, you will become more accustomed to your new body and your surroundings, and feel less socially alienated. You will normalise. You will feel as though you were born here, and your past life and that which went with it was a purely intellectual memory experience. It almost seems as if all of your past happened to someone else, and that you just watch it unfold. That is true of all cryonics suspension patients. So, do not give up hope! The biological effects adjust and remake the psyche; this is part of the change process. Much of your personality and behaviour is because of such mental aptitudes. Time will reassure your mind with your new body, and it is for the best.



edit: spelling

Adaptation is one thing but I wouldn't want to lose touch with my past and turn into a completely different person.

[niner]

In order to lessen the trauma during revival, it would make sense to keep changes and modifications to a minimum (ie. curing the disease that killed the patient is OK, but boosting his intelligence to superhuman levels or turning a 65 year old into a 25 year old isn't).

Hey, if I have to come back with my crappy broken down elderly body, then count me out. I want a new body. That's the whole point of neuro, isn't it?

[lunarsolarpower]

I think given a new "childhood" or "retraining" period most should do quite well in the future. To see one example of a cave man living in the modern world check out The Man from Earth. Just because you were born into a particular century doesn't mean you have to forever adhere to its conventions and customs.

[Berserker]

In order to lessen the trauma during revival, it would make sense to keep changes and modifications to a minimum (ie. curing the disease that killed the patient is OK, but boosting his intelligence to superhuman levels or turning a 65 year old into a 25 year old isn't).

Hey, if I have to come back with my crappy broken down elderly body, then count me out. I want a new body. That's the whole point of neuro, isn't it?

Yes, as you said that the point, the neuro cryonics can work just with a new body...what a thought it could be a good idea is virtual reality before came for the real life. I mean, probably in the future virtual reality is going to be as real life, so they could teach you everything there.

[harris13.3]

In order to lessen the trauma during revival, it would make sense to keep changes and modifications to a minimum (ie. curing the disease that killed the patient is OK, but boosting his intelligence to superhuman levels or turning a 65 year old into a 25 year old isn't).

Hey, if I have to come back with my crappy broken down elderly body, then count me out. I want a new body. That's the whole point of neuro, isn't it?

They could fix the diseases that result from an aged 65+ year old body, but keep the appearance the same in order to keep changes to a minimum.

Also a person might be so used to their aged appearance that if they were put into a 25 year old body, they would not recognize themselves in the mirror, hence unsettling them. Maybe it's best to keep the appearance the same as before and then offer the option of changing the appearance to a more youthful state once the revived person can make his own choices.

Generally speaking, when it comes to aging the majority of people want to look their respective age but still be healthy (so no arthritis, heart disease, osteoporosis). There is a small minority of people who try to make themselves look drastically younger than they really are through plastic surgery but the reaction is usually negative and most people would prefer to "age gracefully". For example, there are hair dyes on the market targeted towards older men who think that grey hair makes a man look sophisticated and distinguished and the dye aims to bring out this trait.

I think given a new "childhood" or "retraining" period most should do quite well in the future. To see one example of a cave man living in the modern world check out The Man from Earth. Just because you were born into a particular century doesn't mean you have to forever adhere to its conventions and customs.

Re-education would probably be best if it was done on a case-by-case basis rather than in a re-education camp or school due to the sheer small numbers involved. Even in the very distant future, cryonics will be a first-in-first-out process so only about 1 or 2 patients would be revived each month. The earliest cryonic suspensions date back to the sixties and seventies so these people will need to have a much more comprehensive re-education process compared to, say, a person frozen 60 years from now.

Also each revival case" would probably be reported in the newspapers too just like the space missions were back in the 60's. If cryonics turns out to be feasible, it would be an interesting time for anyone involved.

In order to lessen the trauma during revival, it would make sense to keep changes and modifications to a minimum (ie. curing the disease that killed the patient is OK, but boosting his intelligence to superhuman levels or turning a 65 year old into a 25 year old isn't).

Hey, if I have to come back with my crappy broken down elderly body, then count me out. I want a new body. That's the whole point of neuro, isn't it?

Yes, as you said that the point, the neuro cryonics can work just with a new body...what a thought it could be a good idea is virtual reality before came for the real life. I mean, probably in the future virtual reality is going to be as real life, so they could teach you everything there.

I think it should be the other way round; the person should be revived through normal means and then given the choice to enter a VR environment for re-education. Otherwise the experience of being in a virtual reality environment (especially to someone like James Bedford who died when computers were room-sized and nobody knew what VR was) could be too confusing and stressful.

[KalaBeth]

First, I think anyone futurist-minded enough to go in for cryo in the 60's would probably not be overly distressed at being woken up first in a virtual environment. "your brain is connected to a machine emulating physical neural inputs" I think would be entirely comprehensible to someone from that era, given the sci-fi of the time. You'd just have to be the one explain why there still aren't any flying cars.

Eventually, I wonder if some kind of "Vanilla Sky" approach to VR-integrated ..well, I guess it wouldn't be 'cryo' exactly, but some manner of 'keep-brain-preserved-while-body-is-repaired' might not be a better approach, at least for shorter term stays. Basically, better to keep the mind doing *something* in the interim than risk potential problems "booting back up" after being chilled for a century. Then again... trying to talk a consciousness that's been completely immersed for decades in some future version of SecondLife or WoW or whatever shared environment that have in the future back into the real world where physical constraints actually exist might be easier said than done.

To apparent age on revival... heck, just ask the person as they're going in. Personally, in that instance I'd love to wake up being reset to late teens/early 20's - I think it'd be all kinds of fun. But then, you'll note they don't make "grey your hair to look more distinguished" dyes for women. Little social difference there.


I imagine a basic "welcome to the year whatever" class and a counselor at hand would probably suffice, at least for the first few cadres in. Assuming minimal unrepaired neural damage, you're dealing with personalities that went into it expecting to wake up in a wildly different environment. I suspect the transition wouldn't be as hard as it sounds.


And this is a newbie question I'm sure - but what provisions are typically made for post-revival life (assuming the gamble pays off) by folks going in? Do they set up some kind of savings account in their name to just compound while they're frozen so they can support themselves if and when they revive? Or is that even possible, given they're legally dead? Is revival a part of the original contract, or is the contract for storage only? In which case.... even when the tech is available if it's a goshawful expensive process to pull someone out as opposed to keeping them in, how is it arranged?

[Luna]

I was wondering that too!
Who will revive? when? what will they do?

How will the people work? eat? money?

Sure you can come and say "It's the future! who needs to eat!" but people might feel really lonely and who knows what cryonics can do for them, I don't think it's such a big establishment yet and with this kind of world, who knows when and if it will change.

[Medical Time Travel]

What if the ImmInst could produce a report with the title: "The State of the Future World." As a sort of Post-Revival Placement Programme for cryonicists? Trying to in a conservative way predict the world in the beginning of the 22nd century.

[advancedatheist]

What if you want to wake up from cryostasis in Future World alienated, friendless and obsolete?

[KalaBeth]

What if you want to wake up from cryostasis in Future World alienated, friendless and obsolete?

It means you're a glutton for punishment?

Re MTT's book - as useless as a "guide to the future" written in 1890 would have been for now, I rather suspect there's not much we *could* write now that we could rely on.. isn't that pretty much the definition of the singularity? That the convergence of all these technologies leads to a categorically unpredictable future?

That said, I'm sure once revival becomes practicable (if it becomes practicable that is) - that there will be no shortage of "welcome to the present" materials.

[CryoBurger]

Condraz -

Kudos to you for bringing this topic up. Luke and I have gone rounds about this several times in the past, and I stand by your position on the matter.

It takes a bit of meditation, but if you let yourself, in a quiet room, alone, truly begin to think of what it might be like to wake up 500 or 600, or even 1,000 years in the future - I think you would have to be wacky to say "This is the least of my concerns".

On the contrary, we are feeling, thinking individuals with passions and fears and emotions.

Try to think about how much of your mental sanity RIGHT NOW is tied to familiarity of life. Comfort of fitting in. Family. Friends. Your life experiences in school and how they've shaped where you fit in the world today. It takes an understanding of sociology and psychology to truly get the point Condraz is making.

It is absolutely incorrect to claim that this is a small concern. In fact, they are most likely going to have a huge - vast, and elaborate process for slowly making us aware of just WHERE and WHEN we are. It will be extremely, extremely traumatic for some, and I can guarantee that there will be disorders named after those who have been revived and suffer from depression, loneliness, and inability to assimilate into society.

Condraz hit the nail on the head.

It took many weeks of thinking about this, and truly envisioning what it might be like to live in a world where you KNOW NOBODY. Where NOTHING is familiar to you. You truly need to begin to understand how literally everything around you plays a huge role in your current mental and emotional health. Because it does. And the ramifications of completely stripping that away from you. It will be huge.

I think you should all seriously think about this from that perspective and try to see what Condraz is saying.

This is a very poor analogy, but we've all seen those movies where the world is destroyed and only a few people remain. Whats the sentence that the person screaming bloody murder always says with tears in their eyes? "Everyone I've ever known is dead!". That one, tiny aspect is going to play a *HUGE* role in our emotional and mental health when revived. Forget about not even being able to get a job. Forget about being educated only to the point of basic "retardation" compared to the knowledge and education of the future people.

Sure you may be a wealthy businessman today, living in a beautiful mansion with a boat - but do you really think you're going to be anything other than an unskilled minimum wage worker in the future?

Think about it. Not only is it going to be "The least of your concerns" - when it comes down to it, your mental emotional and social health are going to be the ONLY concerns you've got after the process of revival is complete.

-CB-

[lunarsolarpower]

Sure you may be a wealthy businessman today, living in a beautiful mansion with a boat - but do you really think you're going to be anything other than an unskilled minimum wage worker in the future?

I take it you're not familiar with that episode of the Simpsons where Mr. Burns becomes pennyless. For the past few millennia attitude has truly been everything and I doubt that's going to change any time soon. It's the same when you talk to death camp survivors. If you're determined and have something to live for you'll find a way. Do you really think the beings in charge a few hundred years from now will be less ethical than we are today? I guess one's answer to that says more about them self than the hypothetical beings from the future.

[advancedatheist]

It took many weeks of thinking about this, and truly envisioning what it might be like to live in a world where you KNOW NOBODY. Where NOTHING is familiar to you. You truly need to begin to understand how literally everything around you plays a huge role in your current mental and emotional health. Because it does. And the ramifications of completely stripping that away from you. It will be huge.

Sorry, doesn't impress me. People have done this over and over again when they migrate to new places, often after losing their property, families and even entire communities because of a war, a natural disaster or the misfortune of becoming the targets of an abusive government. Many of them became our ancestors. Even black Africans brought over as slaves managed to build new lives in the Western Hemisphere under conditions we would consider unsurvivable.

In fact, we tend to admire such people.

This is a very poor analogy, but we've all seen those movies where the world is destroyed and only a few people remain. Whats the sentence that the person screaming bloody murder always says with tears in their eyes? "Everyone I've ever known is dead!".

At times I actually look forward to that. Only I suspect I can hook up with other revived cryonauts so that we can look out for each other, even though I don't personally like some of them.

Sure you may be a wealthy businessman today, living in a beautiful mansion with a boat - but do you really think you're going to be anything other than an unskilled minimum wage worker in the future?

See above about immigrants. How many of them lost their wealth in their home countries and started over in the U.S. taking the crap jobs, only to work back up to petty bourgeoisie status or better? And they did so even though they had to struggle to learn a new language as adults and find their way around a strange culture.

[Delorean]

I'd like to echo what advanced atheist has said. Anyone who can't imagine living day to day without their family and friends surely wouldn't sign up for cryonics in the first place. Unless at least some of their family and friends were being frozen too of course.

[Putz]

We all learn to make new friends though. You move to another country, login to an MMORPG, change schools - you're replacing lost connections left and right.

That reminds me, it would be interesting if there's a VR process, it would be like designing your character before jumping into an MMORPG, except you'll be designing yourself!