Neuroflow - the best multi-nootropic pill? - Supplements

#1

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 09:24 AM

I've been skeptical about multi-nootropic supplements (all-in-one supplements) because they seem to be underdosed and not using the best supplements/nootropics but this particularly supplement was suprisingly complete as I see it.

Serving Size: 3 Capsules
Servings Per Container: 30 Amount
Per Serving % Daily Value*
Choline Bitartrate 700 mg
Piracetam 500 mg
Vinpocetine 10 mg
Huperzine A 100 mcg

Other Ingredients: Micro Crystaline Cellulose, Barley Flour.

Recommended Use: Take 3 Capsule once daily with meals. Do not exceed 6 capsules in any 24 hour period.

Now before you start pointing out flaws in this regiment notice that while the maintaince supplements aren't really there (anti-oxidants and such) this is the most complete nootropic mix I've seen from a general cognition-enhancing pill. My only problem and I've already stated this is that it's dosage is still relatively low. It recommends not to exceed 6 capsules a day but I would consider taking as much as 8 pills a day to get some of the desired dosages for some of those nootropics used within the pill. I might still order the 750g Piracetam powder since it's very cheap gram per gram and to achieve attack dosage on that regiment pill would be difficult at best. Vassopressin (Desmopressin) is still on order and I await it as well unwaveringly, but in terms of a more regular long term solution I think the regiment pill + Piracetam powder could cover my nootropic intake.

The only reason I'm not going to order this straight out is because I want input from those with much more knowledge and experience than I do. Let's here what you have to say about this. Remember I'm a student and budget is also important that's why this was so appealing.

#2 chomsky

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 04:57 AM

I would first and foremost caution you not to take more than one or two of these servings per day, considering the high amount of Huperzine A (HupA) in each serving. HupA is an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor, and also an NMDA receptor antagonist (Neuroscience. 2001;105(3):663-9), which these two mechanisms of action are why it is recommended in people with Alzheimer’s disease. The problem, though, is that acetylcholine esterase is absolutely essential for maintaining proper muscle control, including very importantly the diaphragm which controls our breathing. For someone who doesn't already have an age-related decline in acetylcholine levels, inhibiting the breakdown of this neurotransmitter should be done to a minimal degree.

I personally find any more than 50 mcg a day to give adverse side effects such as nausea, and heart palpitations (irregular heartbeat). The former and latter effects are probably due to the fact that in order for muscles to release from contraction, the chemical messenger acetylcholine needs to be properly broken by its esterase enzyme. Therefore when you inhibit the action of that enzyme to a substantial degree you also inhibit your muscles ability to release from contraction. For example, the poison from the black widow spider drastically increases acetylcholine levels and completely stops the action of acetylcholine esterase, rendering the victim's muscles, including the heart and the diaphragm, to cease functioning.

I personally would pretty much discount any effect you would receive from the small amount of piracetam in these capsules, leaving only a possible effect from the Vinpocetine, HupA and maybe the Choline bitarate. If I were you I would just take these separately, considering then you wouldn't have to worry about adverse effects from a high dose of Huperzine A.

As far as increasing alertness and whatnot with nootropics, I don't think you will be very impressed with the very subtle effects of these drugs. After all, they are drugs meant to treat disorders and/or pathological illnesses and haven't been consistently proven to be either safe nor effective in normal individuals. For example, I wouldn't take prescription drugs which are intended to treat the AIDS virus in order to boost my immune system. Moreover, If you feel you actually have a condition which is affecting your ability to concentrate or remain alert at appropriate times, I would suggest getting a medical opinion on what the sources of those problems could be and the possible routes for treatment. Any other route such as self-medication would be, in my opinion, more likely to waste money than to actually be substantialy beneficial in treating a person who has not been diagnosed with any particular condition.

#3

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 01:08 PM

I didn't know Huperzine A could be dangerous, I'll heed your warning and avoid this product this may have been why SAN stopped making it although it's still available. I understand that Ritalin or Aderall help increase the duration and intensity of which you can concentrate on something but I didn't want these prescription meds with their possible side effects when I could take generally less harmful supplements like Piracetam and a few others.

I came into this (nootropics supplements) looking for something that would give me a moderate edge in my studies I still believe this is possible with the right regiment, but I'll consider talking to my doctor about prescription meds if I think I need them. Last time I talked to him about my lack of concetration and general mental fatigue he just said get more sleep even though I hinted that didn't seem to be the problem (the sleep I would get on holidays would not help my concentrate on my studies further, I would lose focus too quickly).

With all due respect chomsky you've been quite helpful but before I make any final decisions I'd like to see what LifeMirage has to say as well, he seems like an educated and very experienced user of nootropics and claims that they have had a substantial impact on him.

#4 shpongled

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 08:21 AM

This formula is way overpriced IMO. The 4 ingredients are all good nootropics, but in inconsequential amounts for the price you are paying.

Regarding AChE inhibition, huperzine A has a much better toxicity profile than all the others that I've seen. Still there is reason for caution, but I think you can take doses up to 500 micrograms daily with relatively safety, as long as you aren't combining it with other AChE inhibitors or potent cholinomimetics. As always, monitor your reaction.

#5

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 10:56 AM

shpongled I'm sure I could get all the ingredients cheaper seperately but I've just found a supplier that can get these products to me in very short time. The price is unfair but if I can get what I order in my hands in just a few days it's worth it. Time is of the essences. This month and a half I have available needs to be put to very good use. The Neuroflow along with high Piracetam dosage from my Piracetam powder should keep me going for that duration. Granted the Neuroflow will give me 1000mg of Piracetam from a 6 pill per day dosage, i'm looking at 9,000-10,000mg of Piracetam, and I may ramp up to 8 pills of Neuroflow a day if I need it. What you're saying is that these ingredients are indeed good, but they can be bought cheaper than in this package, that's crystal clear to me but as I've said time is of the essence.

Actually now that I look at your signature I bought the Piracetam powder from you (your site), and I would've also bought the Neuroflow from you had you still a supply. By the time I hit summer or June I will have replaced whatever Neuroflow I had with seperate cheaper high dosed bottles of these various nootropics as you suggested but until then this will do.

#6 macdog

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 02:36 AM

As someone with Tourette's syndrome, acety-choline is probably my greatest enemy. I need to totally avoid anything that prevent the breakdown of acety-choline, because I got too much of it already. Here have some of mine.

Also remember that while (as I know all too well) having gobs of acetyl-choline can feel pretty good and make you feel pretty smart, it is also the same mechanism for mania, and in some cases, panic. It can also work to trigger serotonin toxicity, as well as what MDMA users call "suicide tuesday" that your body has had way too much acetyl-choline, and the receptors get clogged.

#7

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 09:00 AM

macdog I would love to have a controlled manic feeling. I lack motivation in daily life, I have strongly held acedemic goals but don't work quite as hard as it necessary to achieve those goals.

As for a supposed choline overdose, I doubt this will occur at the doses we're talking about, especially since Piracetam seems to chew up Choline in the brain and to maintain supply in the brain you need Choline supplementation.

I know I've said this before but I cannot wait for an easily available Pramiractam supplier, they've wet my appetite and we've heard nothing so far.

Edited by cosmos, 04 April 2004 - 06:27 PM.

#8 shpongled

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 01:05 PM

As someone with Tourette's syndrome, acety-choline is probably my greatest enemy. I need to totally avoid anything that prevent the breakdown of acety-choline, because I got too much of it already. Here have some of mine.

Also remember that while (as I know all too well) having gobs of acetyl-choline can feel pretty good and make you feel pretty smart, it is also the same mechanism for mania, and in some cases, panic. It can also work to trigger serotonin toxicity, as well as what MDMA users call "suicide tuesday" that your body has had way too much acetyl-choline, and the receptors get clogged.

I think you're confused. The neurobiology of Tourette's is not well known but the prevailing theory is dopamine supersensitivity. Mania is also related to an excess of dopamine. Lots of acetylcholine doesn't make you feel good, a hypercholinergic state is associated with depression. And I have no freakin clue what "clogged receptors" is supposed to mean but recently published research indicates that MDMA is not at all neurotoxic in regularly used recreational doses, although they still haven't fully figured out what leads to diminishing rate of self-administration. If anything I think this is a positive aspect because with diminishing returns and lack of physical dependence you can't stay hooked on it too long.

#9 nutridoc

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:14 PM

I took it for 2 months. Was not impressed at all.

#10 ageless

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 05:22 AM

Ortho Mind by AOR is the best in my Mind... ingredients and doses are proven and work well together.... for prevention and brain enhancement... been using for over a year. All is well.

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Neuroflow - the best multi-nootropic pill?

#1