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Creating a multi-vitamin type supplement


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#1 Mind

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 06:57 PM


Here is the original discussion where BrokenPortal suggested Imminst sell a multi-vitamin.

And another discussion where a multi would be given away to new members.

And a third discussion about hooking up with Revgenetics to create/sell a multi

At recent managerial meetings the idea of actually branding and/or selling or giving away an "Imminst" supplement was rejected on liability and resource concerns.

Left open was the possibility of starting a discussion in the supplement forum about what should be in a good multi-vitamin, promoting the discussion, having Revgenetics manufacture the resulting product and offer it for sale with a statement on the label that is was "formulated through discussion in the Imminst.org forums" (or something similar). All aspects of the supplement would be discussed - ingredients, proportions, price, etc...

I started this topic in order to get some feedback on how the discussion should proceed. Do the members start a poll(s) where people can vote on ingredients and proportions? Do the members convene a panel of experts to take care of it? How long should the discussion take?

Anthony tells me that if members agree on a formulation before the end of October that there is a chance the mix could be ready for sale before the end of the year.

Comments Please

#2 PWAIN

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:56 AM

At recent managerial meetings the idea of actually branding and/or selling or giving away an "Imminst" supplement was rejected on liability and resource concerns.

Left open was the possibility of starting a discussion in the supplement forum about what should be in a good multi-vitamin, promoting the discussion, having Revgenetics manufacture the resulting product and offer it for sale with a statement on the label that is was "formulated through discussion in the Imminst.org forums" (or something similar). ...


Personally, I like the idea and would suggest getting Michael and a few senior members here to develop this. Perhaps then an ingredient list with amounts could be published for discussion and minor modifications could be made if enough support is found.

One thing to consider is, is this going to be purely a multi vitamin or is there going to be various other desirable extras in there? Maybe both a multi and an all in one (with everything else) can be made?

Edited by Michael, 26 October 2009 - 08:42 PM.
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#3 mitkat

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:26 AM

I think this is a great idea...why not formulate what we're always complaining about not existing in the marketplace? ;) It would help further get the Imminst brand out there, plus there are many people online who respect the views espoused in the health forums and would be instant customers.

As far as a poll, I think that's a great idea as well, I also have a feeling that it will end up being an expensive supp, as we're going to want the best and most bioavailable forms of all ingredients.

#4 RighteousReason

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 03:12 AM

This is a really awesome idea. What can I do to move this idea forward?

#5 Logan

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 05:44 AM

GREAT IDEA!

#6 Sillewater

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 07:20 AM

i second resvhead's idea.

#7 Kutta

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 11:16 AM

If this project is ever going to be realized IMO there will be huge flame wars among the biochemically informed :) , as it's been the way since always (and it's the proper way also ;) ).

But anyway, I think that the aggregate knowledge of Imminst should trump all supplements sellers'.

#8 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:14 PM

I'd only be for it if we were able to provide high quality at a much lower price than say the Life Extension Foundation--otherwise it would not be worth it. LEF has great quality, the price is high-but they support many areas in extreme life extension that we at ImmInst also support, LEF puts vastly more in monetarily though.

#9 Blue

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 01:30 PM

I'd only be for it if we were able to provide high quality at a much lower price than say the Life Extension Foundation--otherwise it would not be worth it. LEF has great quality, the price is high-but they support many areas in extreme life extension that we at ImmInst also support, LEF puts vastly more in monetarily though.

Regarding LEF's products, no comment on their research support:
http://www.imminst.o...cts-t32480.html

#10 Blue

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:07 PM

Some possible problems

1. There may be difficulty getting anything near a consensus on what a good multi should contain. In part because it is seldom definitely established what is the optimal amount in the research. Should a multi be limited to the essential vitamins and minerals or should it contain other substances? Should it be an inexpensive single capsule/tablet or something more expensive? Amino acid chelates for the minerals, a special softgel for the fat soluble vitamins, or a separate capsule for a good form of bulky Mg are examples of things that likely would make it more expensive.

2. A well-formulated multi may sell poorly. It seems that people often judge multis superior if they contain higher amounts. So a vitamin E 400 IU muliti will be judged better than vitamin E 30 IU multi. Alternatively they look at the number of ingredients, so a multi with a lot of substances, preferable rare ones that are not in many other multis so no comparison can be made, in homeopathic doses will be judged superior. LEF uses both strategies, superhigh doses for the usual, cheap vitamins and very low doses for many of the plant extracts.

Edited by Blue, 16 October 2009 - 02:45 PM.


#11 RighteousReason

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 04:51 PM

Here is at least a starting point:

I would say just get a basic mix, modeled somewhat after Ortho Core.

Get rid of everything except the Vitamins (A,B,C,D,E,K) and minerals. Use the best forms in optimal amounts, and assume you are using a 100% Daily Value. Put it in 6 caps or whatever so you can take partial doses.

Vitamin A Complex
- Retinol (palmitate) 150 mcg/500 IU
Natural-Source Mixed Carotenoids:
- Alpha-carotene 1.6 mg/1332 IU
- Beta-carotene 6.0 mg/9990 IU
- Cryptoxanthin 300 mcg/250 IU
- Lutein 6.8 mg
- Zeaxanthin 314 mcg
- Astaxanthin 2 mg
- Lycopene 10 mg
Vitamin B Complex
- B1 (Thiamin) 9 mg
- B2 (Riboflavin) 2.5 mg
- B3 (Niacin -as 126 mg Inositol Hexanicotinate) 115 mg
- B5 (d-Ca Pantothenate) 100 mg
- B6 (Pyridoxal-5�-phosphate) 100 mg
- B12 (Methylcobalamin) 647 mcg
- Folic Acid 800 mcg
- Biotin 300 mcg
- Choline (Bitartrate) 100 mg
- Inositol (from Inositol, Inositol Hexanicotinate) 100 mg
Vitamin C Complex
- Vitamin C (Magnesium Ascorbate) 120 mg
- Mixed Citrus Bioflavonoids (25%) 100 mg
- Quercetin Dihydrate (85% Quercetin) 76 mg
Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 25 mcg/1000 IU
Vitamin E Complex
Tocopherols: 86 mg
- alpha-tocopherol 15 mg/22 IU
- beta-tocopherol 2 mg
- gamma-tocopherol 60 mg
- delta-tocopherol 24 mg
Tocotrienols: 10 mg
- alpha-tocotrienol 3 mg
- beta-tocotrienol 0.3 mg
- gamma-tocotrienol 6 mg
- delta-tocotrienol 1.3 mg
Menatetrenone (MK-4) 120 mcg

Minerals
Boron (Citrate) 700 mcg
Calcium (Calcium carbonate, Citrate-Malate, d-Ca Pantothenate) 300 mg
Chromium (Picolinate) 100mcg
Copper (Citrate) 1.5 mg
Iodine (Potassium Iodide) 150 mcg
Magnesium (Aspartate, Oxide, Ascorbate, Chlorophyllin) 210 mg
Potassium (Chloride) 50 mg
Manganese (Glycinate) 2.3 mg
Molybdenum (Na Molybdate) 45 mcg
Selenium (Se-Methylselenocysteine) 55 mcg
Silicon (Na Metasilicate) 25 mg
Strontium (Citrate) 1.5 mg
Vanadium (Picolinate) 18 mcg
Zinc (Citrate) 11mg


Edited by RighteousReason, 16 October 2009 - 04:52 PM.


#12 nameless

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 06:28 PM

Michael is the only one in these forums I'd probably trust to make a proper multi, but I think he already stated he didn't want to do so. Using the AOR model is much preferred than the LEF one, although you may end up with an expensive vitamin nobody will buy -- except those who read these forums and go with the less is more concept.

An RDA-ish, multi-capsule Multi using the optimal forms is probably the way to go, although getting a consensus on the optimal forms (which are also cost effective) may be a problem here.

#13 RighteousReason

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 09:12 PM

Michael is the only one in these forums I'd probably trust to make a proper multi, but I think he already stated he didn't want to do so. Using the AOR model is much preferred than the LEF one, although you may end up with an expensive vitamin nobody will buy -- except those who read these forums and go with the less is more concept.

An RDA-ish, multi-capsule Multi using the optimal forms is probably the way to go, although getting a consensus on the optimal forms (which are also cost effective) may be a problem here.

Forget cost effective, just go for the best of the best of the best.

#14 RighteousReason

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 09:28 PM

180 Capsules
Serving Size6Capsules
Servings Per Container30
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Vitamins
Vitamin A Complex
Retinol (Palmitate) 150mcg 10%
Alpha Carotene 1.6mg 27%
Beta Carotene 6mg 200%
Vitamin C (Magnesium Ascorbate) 120mg 200%
Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 25mcg 250%
Vitamin E (As Alpha-Tocopherol) 15mg 73%
Menatetrenone (MK-4) 120mcg 150%

Vitamin B Complex
B1 (Thiamin) 9mg 600%
B2 (Riboflavin) 2.5mg 147%
B3 (Niacin - As 126 Mg Inositol Hexanicotinate) 115mg 575%
B6 (Pyridoxal-5'-Phosphate) 100mg 5,000%
Folic Acid 800mcg 200%
B12 (Methylcobalamin) 647mcg 10,783%
Biotin 300mcg 100%
B5 (D-Ca Pantothenate) 100mg 1,000%

Minerals
Calcium (Calcium Carbonate, Citrate-Malate, D-Ca Pantothenate) 300mg 30%
Iodine (Potassium Iodide) 150mcg 100%
Magnesium (Aspartate, Oxide, Ascorbate, Chlorophyllin) 210mcg 53%
Zinc (Citrate) 11mg 73%
Selenium (Se-Methylselenocysteine) 55mcg 79%
Copper (Citrate) 1.5mg 75%
Manganese (Glycinate) 2.3mg 115%
Chromium (Picolinate) 100mcg 83%
Molybdenum (Na Molybdate) 45mcg 60%
Potassium (Chloride) 50mg 1.4%
Boron (Citrate) 700mcg †
Silicon (Na Metasilicate) 25mg †
Strontium (Citrate) 1.5mg †
Vanadium (Picolinate) 18mcg †

Natural-Source Mixed Carotenoids
Lutein 6.8mg †
Zeaxanthin 314mcg †
Astaxanthin 2mg †
Lycopene 10mg †
Cryptoxanthin 300mcg †

Vitamin E Complex
Tocopherols 86mg †
Beta Tocopherol 2mg †
Gamma Tocopherol 60mg †
Delta Tocopherol 24mg †
Tocotrienol 10mg †
Alpha Tocotrienol 3mg †
Beta Tocotrienol 0.3mg †
Gamma Tocotrienol 6mg †
Delta Tocotrienol 1.3mg †


Ok just to continue jump starting things here, assuming we want just a basic, well rounded mix going to 100% DVs and 6 caps like ortho core so you can take partial doses

Vitamin C can go 10x higher or however much, keeping the capsule a reasonable size
Folic Acid to 50% instead of 200%
Vitamin D to 1000% instead of 250%

Maybe bump up the magnesium to around 100%, and use only the best form
http://www.imminst.o...mp;hl=magnesium

I think I've read that the E complex is too low.

That's about all I know in terms of changing the ingredients and amounts, so someone else can advise if they know something better on those.

Is there anything we would want to add or remove from this list?

Edited by RighteousReason, 16 October 2009 - 09:33 PM.


#15 RighteousReason

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 09:39 PM

Another thing I've always said, so what if the multivitamin is 10 capsules instead of 1? It takes all of 10 more seconds to take 10 pills instead of 1, at most.

#16 eternaltraveler

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 09:55 PM

Left open was the possibility of starting a discussion in the supplement forum about what should be in a good multi-vitamin, promoting the discussion, having Revgenetics manufacture the resulting product and offer it for sale with a statement on the label that is was "formulated through discussion in the Imminst.org forums" (or something similar). All aspects of the supplement would be discussed - ingredients, proportions, price, etc...


Since there seems to be no possible way we will jetison the supplement parts of imminst to form its own community I think I'm going to go ahead and flip-flop

If imminst as a collective is going to develop a product, imminst should profit off said product (girl scouts can sell cookies and be non profit, why can't we sell vitamins?). Right now our liability totals about 50k anyway, which is chump change (ie all our assets). We don't have any real strong relationship with LEF, so we don't have much to loose with competing with them. And imminst could certainly use a good asset stream

Edited by Michael, 26 October 2009 - 08:46 PM.
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#17 John Schloendorn

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 10:47 PM

Interesting idea, and I pretty much second Eternaltraveler's perspective on it.

The only challenge I see is to get the "good practises" right in this business. The last thing ImmInst needs is to get a bad reputation because of poor practises in making and selling supplements. As long as those doing this follow good practises and communicate that to ImmInst leadership, I think this could be a rather splendid way to create a stream of income for the institute.

Do we have any people with experience in selling supplements who would want to take this on?

#18 Mind

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 11:01 PM

Interesting idea, and I pretty much second Eternaltraveler's perspective on it.

The only challenge I see is to get the "good practises" right in this business. The last thing ImmInst needs is to get a bad reputation because of poor practises in making and selling supplements. As long as those doing this follow good practises and communicate that to ImmInst leadership, I think this could be a rather splendid way to create a stream of income for the institute.

Do we have any people with experience in selling supplements who would want to take this on?


Dramatic flip-flop Elrond :p

Thanks for your comments everyone. This is a good starting point.

In respect to John's question: Anthony at Revgenetics is the proposed person to sell the product. He has a good reputation thus far and appears very focused on quality and purity. The only income we have discussed so far is a licensing deal with Revegentics where Imminst get a small cut off of each sale.

As far as the "less is more" aspect, that is where I settle in on the topic, and I think if only a small batch is manufactured (1,000 bottles), then there is a good chance it will sell well among the Imminst and life extension crowd (even though it has "less" ingredients). Personally, like many of you, I have a pretty decent diet and derive most of my vits, minerals, and micro-nutrients from it, so I would be looking for something that has the best forms of the vitamins, and RDA just enough so that it would be like "topping off" my daily diet.

Price: I would prefer to not get into the high-end price range...more low to moderate pricing, as compared to AOR and LEF and the range of multis out there.

Blue is correct that it will be difficult to get a consensus, but I still think it is worth the endeavor since it is a very popular subject at Imminst.

I will alert Anthony to this thread in order to get his opinion on the comments thus far.

Also, I think the best point to start is with a poll asking whether it should be a straight-up traditional multi vitamin/mineral supplement or if if should have a couple other extra non-traditional ingredients like resveratrol. Once we know the preference, then we can start focusing on proportions and ingredients. Let me know what you think.

#19 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 12:26 AM

Hi Mind,

thanks for the invite to this discussion.

1- The Poll: I think the poll is a good starting point, to see if most folks here want to consider a multi with traditional ingredients vs a multi with some (or many) non-traditional ingredients.
2- Safety and Insurance: I like eternaltravelers perspective as well. Our insurance covers the products we make, it also meets the insurance requirements for GNC and other chains if it ever got to be something they would want to stock. As for communication: Before releasing the product we would send COA's for the finished product to the leadership to verify the product before it's release or announcement to the general public.

This would be a pretty straight forward operation, with the ingredient purchasing taking much of the time after a decision is made regarding the formulation.

As a next step in this process, I look forward to seeing the poll results of the traditional vs non-traditional multi, and the discussions thereafter.

Cheers
A

#20 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 03:47 PM

I just saw Mind's new Poll, nice!

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 23 October 2009 - 03:48 PM.


#21 Mind

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 07:01 PM

Created a new forum for this idea. Community Supplement Design.

#22 thestuffjunky

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 07:19 PM

MIND

please ask BP to remember to ask me... i will be willing to sell the MIX in whatever means i can...

please remember, i am a salesman for any product i can get my hands on...

#23 Mind

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:03 PM

Thanks for the reminder! That is certainly an option when the time comes.

#24 Shepard

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 04:15 PM

Moving this to Projects as we are already working on this.

#25 pmachin

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:57 PM

Making a pill focused on lifetime extension is a great idea; however, in order to fit compounds in effective amounts and to decrease the risk of deleterious side-effects, perhaps different pills should be created in the following categories, each in a male and female version (6 pills in total)

Life Extension – Compounds found to generally extend healthy lifespan.
Cancer Prevention/Improvement – Compounds to help stave off cancers or deal most effectively with existing cancers.
Neural protectants – Includes compounds to prevent or slow down general neural degeneration, dementia diseases, brain cancers, and perhaps stroke.

First we should establish the relative frequency of the disease that a given compound would address to make a priority list for compounds to include. The priority list should also be weighed against compounds that require a large volume to be effective. In the case of cancers, only compounds found to affect a wide range of cancers should be considered.

From articles that address each problem these could be a start of things to include.
Someone with a background in medicine should check this along with the relative quantities and whether there are any have negative effects of any ingredient on other systems or by combining any set of ingredients.
Not sure if the intend of this project is to obtain FDA regulation or not, but if not obviously we cannot touch pharmaceuticals.

Lifespan – Resveratrol (regulates SIRT1), phytochemical polyphenols (lignans and secoiridoids) in Olive Oil, PYCR1 protein, Rapamycin? Melatonin?
Cancer – Grape Seed Extract, Revesterol, sulforaphane (found in Broccoli), adenosylmethionine (SAMe)
Neural Protectants – Gangliosides, Insulin?, Fasudil?

Sources:
Grape seed extract for leukemia cells
http://www.scienceda...81231005257.htm
Real Anti-Wrinkling Treatment
http://www.scienceda...90831213214.htm
Olive Oil Anti-Cancer
http://www.scienceda...81217192815.htm
Milk Extends Life:
http://www.scienceda...90722083720.htm
Ginko Biloba and Radiation Damage:
http://www.scienceda...91019122956.htm
Wine Raises Life Expectancy by up to 5 years
http://www.scienceda...90429205609.htm
Vegetables combat cancer - sulforaphane
http://www.scienceda...81223121135.htm
Liver Cancer Prevention - adenosylmethionine (SAMe)
http://www.scienceda...90730111156.htm
Drug Reduces NeuroBlastoma - http://www.scienceda...90423180239.htm
Gangliosides May Protect Against Parkinson's Disease
http://www.scienceda...90426082838.htm
Insulin Treatment for Alzheimers
http://www.scienceda...90202174818.htm
Reducing the Risk of Alzheimer’s
http://www.scienceda...90202102932.htm




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