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The Return of the Warrior Jesus


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#1 advancedatheist

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 04:48 PM


April 4, 2004
WRATH AND MERCY
The Return of the Warrior Jesus
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

WRITERS and artists have been imagining the Second Coming of Jesus for 2,000 years, but few have portrayed him wreaking more carnage on the unbelieving world than Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

In their new apocalyptic novel, "Glorious Appearing," based on Dr. LaHaye's interpretation of Biblical prophecies about the Second Coming, their Jesus appears from the clouds on a white horse with a "conviction like a flame of fire" in his eyes. With all the gruesome detail of a Hollywood horror movie, Jesus eviscerates the flesh of millions of unbelievers merely by speaking.

"Men and women soldiers and horses seemed to explode where they stood," Dr. LaHaye and Mr. Jenkins write. "It was as if the very words of the Lord had superheated their blood, causing it to burst through their veins and skin.'' The authors add, "Even as they struggled, their own flesh dissolved, their eyes melted and their tongues disintegrated."
.....

Bible scholars holding this view have often sought to apply Biblical prophecy to current events, frequently taking the creation of the state of Israel as a welcome sign that history is nearing a close. Dr. LaHaye's "Left Behind" series starts when all the born-again are summoned to heaven in the Rapture. Then the Antichrist uses the United Nations to create a single world government, world currency and world religion - all signposts on the road to Armageddon, in Dr. LaHaye's view. The Antichrist establishes his global capital at the Biblical Babylon, now known as Baghdad.

The overarching themes in such Biblical interpretation also bear a strong resemblance to contemporary talk of a culture war pitting secular liberals against conservative Christians, said Timothy Weber, president of Memphis Theological Seminary. "The culture war fits into the pre-millennialists' expectation of the end of history - the decline of civilization, the breakdown of morality, a general breakdown of order,'' he said. "The warrior Jesus returns to set everything right again." 



#2 baal_zebul

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 05:22 PM

What is the limit for being an beliver or not?
If we look back one would have to pray like 3 times a day just to be considered a believer. Now one does not even have to cross their hands in order to pray some priests says. "God will hear your pray any way"

The bible says (some is lost in the translation), "Have your fate on the inside".
So really all those who go to church would be considered as unbelivers as the quote put it. The whole bible is a paradox so there is no way to fully live by the bible so i wonder, where is the line? What would one have to do in order to survive Jesus hellfire? As i see it the only chance one has to survive is to lock oneself in a monastary all alone and pray. If others would see you pray then you would be doomed. You could neither tell anyone that you believed in God cause then you would have failed too.

#3 advancedatheist

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 05:40 PM

Jenkins and LaHaye make Jesus sound like something Hellboy would have to fight!

#4 baal_zebul

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 05:47 PM

:)

I wonder if Lucifer would send up some demons to fight Jesus or if he will just sit back and watch the show and then collect the souls of those who have died.

#5 advancedatheist

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 07:43 PM

Why does Jesus have to zap the poor horses? They aren't morally responsible for their riders' actions.

And why doesn't he just temporarily incapacitate the bad guys so that they have to surrender and have the opportunity to repent? Seems like that would set a better example than gratuitously dismembering them.

#6 baal_zebul

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 08:59 AM

I think the bible says that all can be forgiven but Lucifer.
So, why would he kill them?

#7 advancedatheist

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 03:47 PM

Jesus eviscerates the flesh of millions of unbelievers merely by speaking.


Well, nobody ever claimed that Jesus had to have sweet breath!

#8 baal_zebul

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 04:35 PM

"You shall not kill! Except if you are Jesus"

#9 pSimonKey

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 04:48 PM

Wasn't Jesus the son of God and that God being Yahweh, the thunder god, if that is so I should expect Jesus to pack abit of punch just due to "breeding".

#10 advancedatheist

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 05:01 PM

Wasn't Jesus the son of God and that God being Yahweh, the thunder god, if that is so I should expect Jesus to pack abit of punch just due to "breeding".


Does that make Jesus a sociopathic mutant like Magneto?

#11 pSimonKey

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 05:16 PM

Is Magneto dead/alive, and about to turn up again, then?

#12 baal_zebul

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 07:33 PM

Of course Jesus is a sociopath! He has lived close to his father and the holy ghost for about 2000 years now

#13 ocsrazor

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 01:46 AM

AA - this is very scary direction for our society, we need to pay close attention to the political and cultural movements going on within the fundamentalist right lest we be suprised and find ourselves literally in a culture war.

#14 advancedatheist

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 03:30 AM

AA - this is very scary direction for our society, we need to pay close attention to the political and cultural movements going on within the fundamentalist right lest we be suprised and find ourselves literally in a culture war.


The "culture war" has already been declared. Read The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State, by Katherine Yurica.

Also download her appearance on "Equal Time for Freethought":



#15 pSimonKey

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 09:06 AM

The current state of world politics seems to be looking rather like a script being played out by people that take their roles far too seriously. Heaven forbid that we should realise anything other than being the puppets of a deep cultural malaise. [sarc] Disenpowered by apathy and fear, frozen in the head lights of an on coming "apocalypse" or so we're lead to believe. How well the market now !?

#16 jestersloath

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Posted 09 April 2004 - 10:53 PM

I think that the only way to really escape the wrath (lol) of jesus is to just he comes down or up or left or right what ever be a good person before to actually I think alot of the christians today would be very surpise beacuse they are mean and inconciderate.

#17 micah

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:52 AM

The "Left Behind" scenario is probably a minority viewpoint that is simply over-publicized because it is so dramatic. It has very recent historic origin in Christianity, and most serious theologians reject it.

The "Left Behind" viewpoint does happen to be somewhat similar to the viewpoint Jesus himself spent considerable time refuting. Jesus often shrank from the title "Messiah" because he didn't want to be associated with the "Left-Behind" type of concepts that had become attached to it.

-micah

#18 Lazarus Long

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 03:16 AM

How many versions of the Revelations besides John's were written micah?

Please cite your evidence for your claim. Whatever someone you claim called Jesus may or may not have said or done, the words placed in print in his name have definitely made the Heavenly pitch since the first slaves were given hope of a better life in the hereafter. And the promise that someday an apocalypse would happen to reward the "righteous" and cast out the wicked.

http://www.biblenote...revelation.html

http://www.pbs.org/w...revelation.html

http://www.afolders....m0922729433.htm

#19 micah

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 06:04 AM

Hey Lazarus,

I'm not sure what you're asking. I guess my answer is that there is only one "Revelations" and that is the one in the "canonical bible". There were a lot more apocalyptic texts, but only one "Revelations of John" that I know of.

I think what you're getting at is that Revelation is the impetus behind the "Left-Behind" concept, and it is right there in the bible. Well, if that's what you're saying, you're right.

Problem is, most modern "christians" aren't Jews. Most modern christians don't "get" Revelation the same way a 1st-century Jew would have. Even with such a gap of understanding, few christians throughout history have made the claims that "Left-Behind" has.

And the promise that someday an apocalypse would happen to reward the "righteous" and cast out the wicked.


The apocalypse DID happen, just like Jesus said it would, just like the Jewish Christians expected (and dreaded). It's called "the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE". Read through 1st-century Jewish eyes, that's exactly what Revelation predicted.

For example, here are some quotes from the sites you listed:

This book presents the vision of John regarding future events around his time (or even possibly yet to come now) of the "last days."


They were right the first time; the "last days" of the nation of Israel (distinct from modern Israel) came and went around his time.

If you open the Book of Revelation and simply begin reading it as an unfolding scenario, it goes something like this. There will be wars and famines and disease epidemics and heavenly signs that will alert the world to some sort of crisis.


Those definitely happened during the 1st century. "Heavenly signs" being comets, etc.

Then will come an Antichrist as he's called


The term "antichrist" is not in the book of Revelation. But I get what they're saying...

a political ruler, that will establish control over the whole earth.


Also known as Nero Caesar.

He'll be backed up with a religious ruler


Hmmm...John was a Jew...could he possibly have been referring to a JEWISH religious ruler, like maybe the corrupt (to John's eyes) temple system? The temple system which was in league with the Roman government?

who's called the false prophet.


Because this religious structure validated Rome and used religion to obtain power for itself over the commoners.

They together establish a unified social, economic and religious system that dominates the world.


Well, sorta. Rome dominates the political world, the Temple dominates the Jewish religious world. Both of those worlds were about to be deconstructed.

The only thing opposing them are the people of God and these two prophets, they're called the two witnesses, who appear in Jerusalem, and begin to speak against this power.


That's what the rest of the New Testament (particularly Acts) describes; people speaking out against a corrupt system of domination.

The rest of the book, really the last half of the book is about the overthrow of this system.


Which happened in the latter years of the 1st-century CE.

The beast, the false prophet, who has the number 666, the Antichrist, is overthrown with judgments and plagues.


That definitely happened. Nero and his heirs died violently, Jerusalem was destroyed, the whole civilized world was thrown into uproar.

...until finally, Jesus Christ returns as a warrior on a white horse and sets up the kingdom of God. ...


Naturally, this is symbolic, like the rest of the book. Revelation is about narrating then-contemporary history and political developments through Jewish metaphor, and through Jewish metaphor, giving them enhanced meaning. Jesus continually taught that the "kingdom of God" was within, would not come by force, and was not going to be a military reign.

But John depicts Jesus as a conqueror because Jesus' warning against violent revolution (which started this whole mess) had been proven right. After the corrupt temple establishment and Rome end up fighting each other, they both go down, leaving Jesus as the only one looking good.

Finally, the book ends on a victorious note, with the "New Jerusalem" coming down from heaven and setting up God's city on earth. What is often ignored is that John SPECIFICALLY identifies this metaphorical "city" with a group of people, namely, those who are peacemakers rather than violent revolutionaries. The "New Jerusalem" is not heaven, it is a community of good people on earth.

John's vision is not a world-ending catastrophe with a comfortable place for us when everyone dies. John's vision is of political turmoil that destroys the major oppressors of the 1st-century, and sets the stage for a group of people following God's rule (don't initiate violence) to demonstrate their correctness to the world.

-micah

#20 kerr_avon

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 05:53 PM

The "Left Behind" scenario is probably a minority viewpoint that is simply over-publicized because it is so dramatic. It has very recent historic origin in Christianity, and most serious theologians reject it.

The "Left Behind" viewpoint does happen to be somewhat similar to the viewpoint Jesus himself spent considerable time refuting. Jesus often shrank from the title "Messiah" because he didn't want to be associated with the "Left-Behind" type of concepts that had become attached to it.

-micah


Serious theologians might reject it but it's what the millions of everyday fundamentalists believe that influences elections and policy in this country. LaHaye is fantastically popular with them. Christian housewives read his novels like more secular ones read trashy romance novels. Of course maybe it's taken with the same grain of salt. We can only hope.

#21 advancedatheist

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 10:24 PM

The "Left Behind" scenario is probably a minority viewpoint that is simply over-publicized because it is so dramatic. It has very recent historic origin in Christianity, and most serious theologians reject it.


Serious theologians might reject it but it's what the millions of everyday fundamentalists believe that influences elections and policy in this country. LaHaye is fantastically popular with them. Christian housewives read his novels like more secular ones read trashy romance novels. Of course maybe it's taken with the same grain of salt. We can only hope.


I'm amazed at how a fringe belief that used to be confined mainly to the South has now gone practically mainstream. When 60 Minutes II feels the need to discuss LaHaye's version of "Dispensationalist" weirdness, then you know it has become culturally influential.

#22 kerr_avon

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Posted 16 May 2004 - 01:25 AM

The "Left Behind" scenario is probably a minority viewpoint that is simply over-publicized because it is so dramatic. It has very recent historic origin in Christianity, and most serious theologians reject it.


Serious theologians might reject it but it's what the millions of everyday fundamentalists believe that influences elections and policy in this country. LaHaye is fantastically popular with them. Christian housewives read his novels like more secular ones read trashy romance novels. Of course maybe it's taken with the same grain of salt. We can only hope.


I'm amazed at how a fringe belief that used to be confined mainly to the South has now gone practically mainstream. When 60 Minutes II feels the need to discuss LaHaye's version of "Dispensationalist" weirdness, then you know it has become culturally influential.


I live in Central Florida, which is a weird mix of California, New York and Mississippi in terms of culture and people. I've noticed that church is the axis around which life revolves here, even in terms of work and career. Basically, where an old time northeasterner would try to schmooze on the golf course and in the trendy bars to make his way in the world, in the Bible Belt people go to church for all their ass-kissing, power-lusting and social-climbing needs. I've seen this where I work in which there's a tight little group of churchy people in control of most important power slots. This always used to be the case in the south of course. Since WWII though, population and wealth have shifted south and west. The newcomers kept some of their wits about them (vis. a vis. race for instance) but mostly succumbed to the high concentrations of Jesus in the air. The result is that what should have been safely ignorable backwoods nuttiness is now something that fuels billion dollar Christian paraphernalia industries, makes bestsellers and gets on 60 minutes. It's very troubling to see these developments.

#23 advancedatheist

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Posted 16 May 2004 - 03:14 PM

Speaking of going prime time, now Newsweek has given LaHaye and Jenkins the cover story on its May 24 issue.

As for the demographics, that is, who is consuming the literature promoting the rapture delusion, the article states,

Who's buying? Jenkins recalls a puzzled Chris Matthews asking a "Hardball" guest the same question. "I'm sure I don't have the quote exact, but it was something like 'Certainly not the people in the cities and the suburbs.' And I'm thinking, 'What does that leave? Barefoot people in the hollers handling snakes?'" Jenkins takes issue with a previous NEWSWEEK piece that called "Left Behind" a "Red State" phenomenon, but statistics from the publisher, Tyndale, bear this out: 71 percent of the readers are from the South and Midwest, and just 6 percent from the Northeast. (Hence Tyndale's sponsorship of a NASCAR racer, with the unlucky logo LEFT BEHIND.) The "core buyer" is a 44-year-old born-again Christian woman, married with kids, living in the South. This isn't the "Sex and the City" crowd—which helps explain why it took so long for the media to notice that one in eight Americans was reading all these strange books about the end of the world.


So, yes, the rapture belief is still largely Southern, but because Southerners control American politics, it has found a way into the larger American society.

#24 kevin

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Posted 16 May 2004 - 04:47 PM

"Left Behind" gives believers an equivalent of such secular sagas as the "Lord of the Rings" books: a self-contained, ordered world with a wealth of detail in which a reader can become blissfully immersed, and the assurance that good must win out—but not so quickly that the audience can't indulge the human fascination with evil. Scholars reconstructing the popular history of the first years of the 21st century—if there still are any—will have to grapple with the phenomenon of "Left Behind." In an age of terror and tumult, they may find, these books' Biblical literalism offered certitude to millions of Americans amid the chaos of their time.


The above encapsulates the reason for the phenomenon among the core audience of 44 year old christian women.

When asked how he felt about money.. Lehaye says..

How does he reconcile [his wealth] with Jesus' injunction to sell all you have and give to the poor? "I can accomplish far more from my present lifestyle and the giving that I do to Christian work," he says. "If I just sold everything and gave it to the poor, I can't see where that would advance the Gospel as much as I'm doing." But wouldn't it advance the poor? "Well," he says, "you know how much I pay in taxes?"


Now there's a "true believer" for you..

Jenkins seems to be a guy who's just lucked out into a good thing with small talent..

I wish I was smart enough to write a book that's hard to read, you know?"


It is comforting to know that although popular and the buyers representative of the supporters of the Administration of the US government, support is NOT universal. I look at secular organizations and how they all seem to be willing to sit in the shadows and let the world be governed by the fanatics.... perhaps the media hype surrounding the new 'pop fiction' of literally interpreting the bible may serve as a clear and present danger enough to get these organizations off there collective keester's and move them to action to protect the progress promised by facts.

#25 advancedatheist

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Posted 16 May 2004 - 04:59 PM

It is comforting to know that although popular and the buyers representative of the supporters of the Administration of the US government, support is NOT universal.  I look at secular organizations and how they all seem to be willing to sit in the shadows and let the world be governed by the fanatics.... perhaps the media hype surrounding the new 'pop fiction' of literally interpreting the bible may serve as a clear and present danger enough to get these organizations off there collective keester's and move them to action to protect the progress promised by facts.


I can see how the ruling elites tolerate this sort of thing. Apart from a few true believers in high places, the people who really run this country know that this prophetic stuff isn't going to happen, but they tacitly go along with it because the belief helps to keep the American sheep in line.




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