71 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Read this original discussion first.

And this revived discussion here.

Imminst members and registered users have always discussed the merits of various supplements on the market and lately have been talking about creating a new multi-vitamin/mineral supplement with proportions adjusted to fit the needs of most life extensionists (around these parts anyway). This poll is a start of what will likely be a long discussion. I threw in the option to reject the idea as a whole, since not all members and registered users have had a chance to weigh in on the subject.

[ajnast4r]

i think a standard multi/vit then an additional booster would be best... i also think keeping the dosage within amounts established nutritional science would be key, and not overdoing it based on speculative/singlular studies as tends to be the norm here.

the problem with adding non-established doses and non-nutritive ingredients is multiple:

1) conflicting research... it often happens that an herb/whatever is the next big thing in life extension, then next year its found to be bunk or toxic and disappears. i would hate to see someone get hurt from a product tied to the institute.

2) the varying supplement regimens of our members. the people here have such varied and large supplement & medication regimens that its unlikely you could get more than a handful of people who could safely take a 'boosted' product.

i would love to participate in the formulation if you do this...

Edited by ajnast4r, 19 October 2009 - 09:26 PM.

[cribbon]

Though suppliments is not a subject I know even 5% as good as I would like to, I have come to understand that what most people here want is not a the all covering magic pill. I have come to the understanding that some things are quite well-accepted whereas some are not, and those that are not are usually both heavily debated and the debate is very centered around what amounts a good intake is.
Thus I think that creating a regular multi is the best approach, becouse that will always leave the option open to create both an extension for it aswell as one or more extras which can of course include the more common herbs and the non-traditional approaches to supplimentation.

If we as a community is going to put our reputation on what a good suppliments is, and especially a multi, I think it is essential that we reach the highest agreement possible, which basicly would mean going the traditional approach.

And if I understand all of the reasons for doing this one of the more important is to attract more people interested in our beliefs and values. The best way for doing that might actually be to have a very small profit on the regular pill - or no profit whatsoever. We can always charge more for the other mixes if we create them - or we can simply include a very simple way to donate money when you purchase the pills - options being just a couple of dollars up to X.

Edited by cribbon, 19 October 2009 - 09:59 PM.

[Kutta]

I agree with ajnast4r and cribbon.

IMO the strongest reason for creating a sane, good, non-botched conventional multi is that currently no bloody supplements company has one. Not AOR, nor LEF, nor any other company got a product without some glowing mistake. Be it some overdosed folic acid, magnesium oxide, minute amounts of unnecessary ALA or herb extracts, something just always flaws the overall picture.

It' would also be great for me personally if ImmInst succeeded to throw together a fine multi, cause I wouldn't have to hunt down all the darned individual components I also hope that keeping our multi simple and disciplined would eventually result in a low price.

[nameless]

Agree with all the above. Significant, or even insignificant amounts of 'extras' would just cause problems. Some people couldn't take it, not everyone will agree on what extras to put in, some herbs would cost too much if you wanted to put in a reasonable amount, etc.

Although it may get tricky when you start to define what a non-traditional ingredient is exactly. Would MK-4 or MK-7 be considered a non-traditional ingredient? I'd probably like to see some K2 in the product, but most multis don't include it. 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate could be another example. Non-traditional, but probably preferred over folic acid.

[hamishm00]

These flaws are the main reasons I avoid multis which seem superfluous to me given the fact that I supplement the individual ingredients in the proper doses.

I would love to have the perfect multi in one single bottle in my supplement cabinet. What a prize that would be.

I eagerly await progress!

[JackChristopher]

I'm afraid it'll fall into design by committee problems. But how else could a project like this be put together?

[neogenic]

I'd love to see one with active/coenzymated forms (methylcobalamin, P5P, R5P, 5-MTHF, etc.) and the "best" minerals (e.g. chelates, orotates). I would pay nearly anything for a well constructed vitamin like this that has pharmaceutical "prowess" to it vs. supp junk and fairy dusting attached to it. Even the best out there now really don't meet the standards I am looking for.

[Mind]

I'm afraid it'll fall into design by committee problems. But how else could a project like this be put together?

I realize this is a danger, but it is a community/member effort at this point. If it bogs down, then maybe members (a substantial majority vote) can decide to a turn it over to a small panel of "experts" to finish it up.

I am thinking about closing this vote on Sunday (October 25th), so we can move on to the next stage. Which brings me to the next question....what should be the next poll/discussion? What is the next logical step? List numerous ingredients and vote up or down on each one?

[RighteousReason]

I'm afraid it'll fall into design by committee problems. But how else could a project like this be put together?

I realize this is a danger, but it is a community/member effort at this point. If it bogs down, then maybe members (a substantial majority vote) can decide to a turn it over to a small panel of "experts" to finish it up.

I am thinking about closing this vote on Sunday (October 25th), so we can move on to the next stage. Which brings me to the next question....what should be the next poll/discussion? What is the next logical step? List numerous ingredients and vote up or down on each one?

You are worried about this getting bogged down? We can hardly get people to get started on this, apparently my attempt to get things started was completely ignored...

Edited by RighteousReason, 21 October 2009 - 09:03 PM.

[RighteousReason]

I'm afraid it'll fall into design by committee problems. But how else could a project like this be put together?

I realize this is a danger, but it is a community/member effort at this point. If it bogs down, then maybe members (a substantial majority vote) can decide to a turn it over to a small panel of "experts" to finish it up.

I am thinking about closing this vote on Sunday (October 25th), so we can move on to the next stage. Which brings me to the next question....what should be the next poll/discussion? What is the next logical step? List numerous ingredients and vote up or down on each one?

You are worried about this getting bogged down? We can hardly get people to get started on this, apparently my attempt to get things started was completely ignored...

(we are pretty good about talking about talking about getting started on something though)

[porthose]

so how long does a project of this scope go from deciding on the make up of the new multi vit/min to actually begin manufacturing to packaging and selling?

6 months? a year? longer?

personally, i would hope the sooner the better.

[porthose]

and to ask another very obvious question: there are already vendors with the expertise and infrastructure already in place to create such a broad spectrum multi, so why not go with such a vendor? Anthony, you listening mate....

[PWAIN]

I am thinking about closing this vote on Sunday (October 25th), so we can move on to the next stage. Which brings me to the next question....what should be the next poll/discussion? What is the next logical step? List numerous ingredients and vote up or down on each one?

I suggest that a new thread be started where people can post what they think would be their perfect multi. Everyone can post what they would like to see and then after a set time, someone can colate all the ingredients for futher discussion and potential elimination. Basically build up a superset and whittle it down. I would particuarly like to hear suggestions from those who are very particular about their multi - what is the best out there.

Once the list of ingredients has been whittled to as small as we can get agreement on, different forms of each ingredient can be put into various polls and voted on. The decisions on these would be final. Not everyone is going to be 100% happy with the end result, but if most people are not too dissapointed, then we should have something worth while.

I like the idea of a pure multi and then at a later stage, consideration can be given to a multi booster that adds extras that are not in the multi and can be taken seperately.

[RighteousReason]

I am thinking about closing this vote on Sunday (October 25th), so we can move on to the next stage. Which brings me to the next question....what should be the next poll/discussion? What is the next logical step? List numerous ingredients and vote up or down on each one?

I suggest that a new thread be started where people can post what they think would be their perfect multi. Everyone can post what they would like to see and then after a set time, someone can colate all the ingredients for futher discussion and potential elimination. Basically build up a superset and whittle it down. I would particuarly like to hear suggestions from those who are very particular about their multi - what is the best out there.

Once the list of ingredients has been whittled to as small as we can get agreement on, different forms of each ingredient can be put into various polls and voted on. The decisions on these would be final. Not everyone is going to be 100% happy with the end result, but if most people are not too dissapointed, then we should have something worth while.

I like the idea of a pure multi and then at a later stage, consideration can be given to a multi booster that adds extras that are not in the multi and can be taken seperately.

How about this, review and criticize my suggestions, and let's get started NOW

180 Capsules
Serving Size6Capsules
Servings Per Container30
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Vitamins
Vitamin A Complex
Retinol (Palmitate) 150mcg 10%
Alpha Carotene 1.6mg 27%
Beta Carotene 6mg 200%
Vitamin C (Magnesium Ascorbate) 120mg 200%
Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 25mcg 250%
Vitamin E (As Alpha-Tocopherol) 15mg 73%
Menatetrenone (MK-4) 120mcg 150%

Vitamin B Complex
B1 (Thiamin) 9mg 600%
B2 (Riboflavin) 2.5mg 147%
B3 (Niacin - As 126 Mg Inositol Hexanicotinate) 115mg 575%
B6 (Pyridoxal-5'-Phosphate) 100mg 5,000%
Folic Acid 800mcg 200%
B12 (Methylcobalamin) 647mcg 10,783%
Biotin 300mcg 100%
B5 (D-Ca Pantothenate) 100mg 1,000%

Minerals
Calcium (Calcium Carbonate, Citrate-Malate, D-Ca Pantothenate) 300mg 30%
Iodine (Potassium Iodide) 150mcg 100%
Magnesium (Aspartate, Oxide, Ascorbate, Chlorophyllin) 210mcg 53%
Zinc (Citrate) 11mg 73%
Selenium (Se-Methylselenocysteine) 55mcg 79%
Copper (Citrate) 1.5mg 75%
Manganese (Glycinate) 2.3mg 115%
Chromium (Picolinate) 100mcg 83%
Molybdenum (Na Molybdate) 45mcg 60%
Potassium (Chloride) 50mg 1.4%
Boron (Citrate) 700mcg †
Silicon (Na Metasilicate) 25mg †
Strontium (Citrate) 1.5mg †
Vanadium (Picolinate) 18mcg †

Natural-Source Mixed Carotenoids
Lutein 6.8mg †
Zeaxanthin 314mcg †
Astaxanthin 2mg †
Lycopene 10mg †
Cryptoxanthin 300mcg †

Vitamin E Complex
Tocopherols 86mg †
Beta Tocopherol 2mg †
Gamma Tocopherol 60mg †
Delta Tocopherol 24mg †
Tocotrienol 10mg †
Alpha Tocotrienol 3mg †
Beta Tocotrienol 0.3mg †
Gamma Tocotrienol 6mg †
Delta Tocotrienol 1.3mg †

Ok just to continue jump starting things here, assuming we want just a basic, well rounded mix going to 100% DVs and 6 caps like ortho core so you can take partial doses

Vitamin C can go 10x higher or however much, keeping the capsule a reasonable size
Folic Acid to 50% instead of 200%
Vitamin D to 1000% instead of 250%

Maybe bump up the magnesium to around 100%, and use only the best form
http://www.imminst.o...mp;hl=magnesium

I think I've read that the E complex is too low.

That's about all I know in terms of changing the ingredients and amounts, so someone else can advise if they know something better on those.

Is there anything we would want to add or remove from this list?

Another thing I've always said, so what if the multivitamin is 10 capsules instead of 1? It takes all of 10 more seconds to take 10 pills instead of 1, at most.

Edited by RighteousReason, 23 October 2009 - 03:33 AM.

[ajnast4r]

List numerous ingredients and vote up or down on each one?

one thread per nutrient where form and amount can be debated, than 3 or 4 selections and one poll per nutrient, with selections for form and amount for each.

members (a substantial majority vote) can decide to a turn it over to a small panel of "experts" to finish it up.

good idea

Edited by ajnast4r, 23 October 2009 - 03:42 AM.

[Zeb]

It would be nice with a multi-vitamin/mineral with mixed softgels and capsules. Having the oil soluble vitamins in softgels in an olive oil base, and the water soluble vitamins along with the minerals in capsules. Would this be possible?

[Mind]

and to ask another very obvious question: there are already vendors with the expertise and infrastructure already in place to create such a broad spectrum multi, so why not go with such a vendor? Anthony, you listening mate....

So far Anthony has expressed interest in producing the "perfect multi", and this is good since most people here know Anthony and Revgenetics, however, Imminst has not officially endorsed any company for production nor has it claimed any intellectual property as of yet, nor should it do so without member approval (as this is a member effort). This could end up being something that generates revenue for the Institute should the members deem it so (through licensing, etc...), or it could be an open source product/"recipe". The options are open at this point.

Thanks for the list RighteousReason, we can perhaps start a forum and poll based on each ingredient, although I think I will need some help. I'll call on a couple people to start the threads at the end of the weekend if there are no objections. Don't start any new threads as of yet, let a few more votes come in over the weekend. We might even need to start a whole new subforum for this discussion.

The water soluble ingredients vs. fat soluble ingredients is interesting and could be a relatively unique feature of this "perfect" multi, let us keep that in mind.

[Anthony_Loera]

I do like the idea from ajnast4r.

one thread per nutrient where form and amount can be debated, than 3 or 4 selections and one poll per nutrient, with selections for form and amount for each.

and maybe a subforum for the discussion of each particular ingredient maybe in order for the "open source product/recipe". I am hoping the debate doesn't take an extraordinary amount of time, and maybe we can set some sort of time limit for each section of the project, or ingredient discussion.

Maybe the next step is to simply get a list of ingredients (not amounts, just a list of what should be in the multi). Then in each particular ingredient thread a discussion can take place on possible amount to include. I think RighteousReason has posted his list, and we can see if folks would like it modified (additions to the list or subtractions) before proceeding to vote on the inclusion or exclusion of a particular ingredient... after this, maybe the discussion on dosage for the ingredients remaining can take place.

Just my 2 cents

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 23 October 2009 - 04:05 PM.

[ajnast4r]

I am hoping the debate doesn't take an extraordinary amount of time, and maybe we can set some sort of time limit for each section of the project, or ingredient discussion.

i would imagine that if the decisions are made by a handful of 'experts'... that they would mostly agree and it would go rather quickly. the people who i know and i would consider having above a lay-understanding of nutritional science are mostly on the same page about these things.

if this multi isnt made in veggie caps im gonna lose my mind

i think that structuring should go like this:

create new supplement subforum, open to public

WEEK 1

1) thread - discussion/nominations for expert panel make final decision
.....a) subforum for vitamins
..........i) thread for discussion on vitamin forms and amounts
.....b) subform for minerals
..........i) thread for discussion on mineral forms and amounts

WEEK 2

names of say the top 5-10 experts are extrapolated from the nomination thread, and then a poll is left for one week with a YES/NO vote on each nomination

WEEK 3

new supplement subforum is made private, open to imminst board & selected experts

1) subforum for vitamins
.....a) subforum for each individual vitamin
..........i) poll for form
.......... ii) poll for amount
2) subforum for minerals
.....a) subforum for each individual mineral
..........i) poll for form
..........ii) poll for amount

WEEK 4

data from polls is gathered and discussion and votes on manufacturing/etc begins

Edited by ajnast4r, 23 October 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[waldemar]

What about splitting it up into 3 capsules: one for morning, one for lunch, and one for bedtime? That way we could avoid the following:

1) getting vitamin c with food and increasing iron absorption
2) getting green tea extract with minerals, thus reducing their absorption
3) getting stuff like melatonin in the morning
4) getting stuff like alcar in the evening
etc....

Also, the fat soluble supps could just be taken at lunchtime, when there is fat in the stomach anyway. Maybe still put it into a LiCap with Omega3s.....

[waldemar]

Make that 2 caps each (6 total) and it's still possible to take only half the dose.

[Anthony_Loera]

From the amounts that I have observed in a previous formulation, I think it is likely to be split up into 3-6 capsules a day like you are proposing.

I like the idea that they can be split up during the day.

Cheers
A

[ajnast4r]

I like the idea that they can be split up during the day.

i agree, with varying diets and regimens a bit of flexibility would be good... allowing each of us to titrate our doses accordingly. 6 caps i think is a bit much, more caps = more cost.

[Mind]

Just a note, I created a new forum for this member project. If you are going to create polls or new discussions revolving around multi-vitamin design, do it here.

I will PM a couple of the more active supps people here in the forums to start the next stage...polls such as "Vitamin A, in or out?"

Once we have an "in or out" decision on the ingredients, then we can move on to proportions, and the rationale/research for each, and/or pass the project on to a panel of experts (as has been suggested, but not set in stone).

[Chaos Theory]

I would definitely support a solid multi-vitamin. I don't expect it to be cheap considering it would in theory have all of the better forms of the ingredients, but at the same time I think measures should be taken to at least keep costs reasonable. I'd like to see it closer to 2 capsules a day, or even better an AM/PM formula.

[hamishm00]

I also like the idea of the AM/PM formula, except if everyone goes down that route it sounds like it's getting i) too complicated given the logistical issues with designing just one formulation let alone two and (ii) too expensive for many.

One thread per ingredient (to discuss in or out, and if it's going to be in then in what dosage), or class of ingredients, sounds like the only way forward, with the 'experts' to have the balance of power in each one.

[Pike]

i wanted to suggest it, but i guess Zeb beat me to it:

a separation of the fat-soluble ingredients with the water soluble ingredients! perhaps the multi could be divided into 3 separate products so people can choose what they want to supplement.

i.e. one for water solubles+minerals perhaps containing alternate forms that have been discussed here (i.e. p-5-p), one for fat solubles made same way (i.e. benfotiamine), and then one "booster" for the interesting supplements that have been discussed here, but don't necessarily have established daily values (i.e. noots, herbs, etc.)?

just my $0.02

Edited by Pike, 27 October 2009 - 08:41 AM.

[brokenportal]

Resveratrol and nootropes are what can set this mix apart and give it a reason, leverage, to excel in the market. If an acceptable mix with resveratrol and nootropes can be worked out then maybe we could do both, options a and b.

[Pike]

Resveratrol and nootropes are what can set this mix apart and give it a reason, leverage, to excel in the market. If an acceptable mix with resveratrol and nootropes can be worked out then maybe we could do both, options a and b.

however, just for the sake of liability and legality we have to rule out all of the pharmaceutical nootropics, which are arguably the noots that have made the most noise in the anti-aging movement (i.e. all of the 'racetams, hydergine, selegiline, pramipexole, naltrexone, etc.).

some reasonable (as in, generally pretty safe) noots you could include could be:
- any of the acetylcholine precursors, perhaps some of the more potent ones to conserve tablet/capsule space.
- "special" ACh precursors like Meclofenoxate (or perhaps we can get spicy and try Adafenoxate?)
- perhaps very conservative amounts of some of the acetylcholinesterase inhibitors - i.e. huperzine (in amounts 50ug or less) and galantamine (2mg or less)
- some of the more exotic forms of niacin w/nootropic activity - i.e. picamilon and xanthinol nicotinate
- conservative amounts of vinpocetine (5mg ballpark)
- pyrithioxine (nootropic form of vitamin b6) in the 100mg ballpark could be pretty safe
- sulbutiamine [nootropic b1] in the > 100mg range
- pregnenolone in > 25mg zone
- many of the nootropic herbs like rhodiola rosea, sceletium tortuosum, ashwagandha, etc.