50 replies to this topic

[shazam]

Hah. This forum is fancy. Anyway, I've been working on a 'vitamin/mineral' stack for some time now, and my emphasis has been on saving money while still getting quality ingredients. I've read some things from which I've drawn the conclusion that multivitamins are not the way to go, and that cycling in fact, is. So far I've made a stack, that in my opinion, is on par with orthocore, and beating it in a few areas. It doesn't have a ton of extras like orthocore, but I figure I'll be getting those seperately, in more significant amounts.

My original stack used Millenium ZMK as its mineral supp, which is an alright mineral supplement that excludes calcium for magnesium replenishment (like a ZMA), but also includes many other minerals chelated with the organic acids used in the Krebs cycle and some trace minerals. I'm not sure if the 3 grams of organic acids (citrate, malate, AKG-ate, succinate, fumarate, in unspecified proportions) actually HELPS with ATP production significantly or not, but I've been looking into Amino Acid Chelates (hereto for referred to as AACs), since they absorb better than Organic salts (also chelates, but of a different kind). So, I did what I did with my vitamin stack and made a mineral stack meant to top a supplement, since most AAC multiminerals seem to have the proportions all wrong. It actually ended up being about 1 dollar more per month, for what seems to be a much superior product (It uses selenext, L-optizinc, Chromemate, and other stuff).

I've been big on cost effectiveness. I've figured out a smart way to save alot of money on supps online, and both stacks have their own little buying guide. This makes them HUGE, so I'm not going to post them, I'm going to attach them as text files. I can see how many people have looked at my stacks that way, too. Having metapad will make them more convenient, since it recognizes links, so if you wanna look the supp up all you have to do is click.

I usually post this regularly on bodybuilding.com (since that is where the topic that originally drew my attention to an ACES type stack, and seperate supplementation over multivitamins is), but for my most recent post I got a 2 week ban for my efforts. Awesome! I figured that this place is more likely to have people who know what they are talking about rather than people who swear by shiny packaging, seeing as in researching vitamin K-2 I've stumbled upon this website a few times, and it seemed to have a better signal to noise ratio. I'm interested in feedback on both stacks, and any ways I could improve costs, formulation, or anything else. To give you an idea, this stack is more meant for general health than a specific purpose, but I would like to see more tangible benefits here and there, and probably will once I run out of my current iteration. Also, I am going to start a bulking phase tommorow. I've heard some things about vitamin C and E (the alpha tocopherol kind) interfering with insulin sensitivity, so I'm thinking my precaution there is to NOT take them around my workout times (let my body handle the recovery process without any antioxidants jumping in the way), and then maybe getting my IS tested to see if they're still messing with me.

Edit: I suppose I'll also post my supplement buying guide alongside it. These stacks both include a mini one, but this one will also include sales I've found on non vitamin supplements (L-Carnitine Fumarate) and list other interesting supplements.

Attached Files

•  Final_Stack_1.8.1.txt   8.9KB   197 downloads
•  AA_Chelated_mineral_Stack_1.0.txt   9.37KB   137 downloads
•  Supplement_buying_guide_1.4.1.txt   18.94KB   413 downloads

Edited by shazam, 25 October 2009 - 09:33 PM.

[shazam]

I neglected to mention my age. I'm a 19 year old male, looking to get a little more muscle packed on (150 pounds, 6'1") and reach an optimal health level. My diet is going to be primarily oats, beans, rice, some meat, assorted protein powders, and assorted fats (coconut oil, olive oil, almonds, PB, egg yolk powder) for economic and bulking reasons. Open to any suggestions on ways I could improve either stack to be in alignment with these two goals while rounding out the micronutrients in my diet.

Edited by shazam, 25 October 2009 - 10:27 PM.

[shazam]

I see downloads, I don't see feedback. I'd like to see a little, please.

This is mostly vitamins and minerals as you've seen. I think some levels can be changed or lowered, but I doubt that it's actually harmful. Unless somebody can prove otherwise

I'm also looking for advice on forms that can and should be changed fairly economically. I suppose that extras (astaxanthin, other carotenoids or herbs or whateva) might also be something I'd like to take into account later, but for now I'm sticking with the stack, which is my primary concern in posting this.

[shazam]

I've made a slight change to the stack itself. I think I'm going to make this my new stack thread, seeing as I got banned from bodybuilding.com for a few weeks for recommending a cheaper store than theirs =P

Anyway, the change was from a 5mg mk4 form of k2 to LE's Super K, which is 1mgK, 1mg MK4 K2, and 100mcg MK7. This should round it out a little better, though I'm not certain the sort of low dosage of MK4 will have the same effects on teeth (anti plaque) as the people using the 5mg in my former version claim to have. As a bonus it's a little cheaper at 1 a day.

As usual, any suggestions are welcome. I may add an economical b12 supp I saw at 2.5k (upon splitting the sublingual) next iteration, but I would sorta count that as an 'extra'.

Attached Files

•  Final_Stack_1.9.txt   9.15KB   117 downloads

Edited by shazam, 26 October 2009 - 07:00 AM.

[rwac]

Isn't 750 mg of calcium a fair bit ?
I suppose the D3 and K should help with that, but still.

[shazam]

Isn't 750 mg of calcium a fair bit ?
I suppose the D3 and K should help with that, but still.

Huh. I haven't read up on calcium that much. Wouldn't 75 percent of your daily intake be an alright amount? Plus it's citrate, so it's not like it's ALL getting absorbed.

Hey, what do you think about the vitamin A? Too much? I thought 40k iu seemed a little high, but maybe I can just cycle it more.

[shazam]

I've made a small change to the Amino acid chelated mineral stack; a recommendation that you split the P5P tablets (included to give the stack a "zma effect") in half, so as to prevent going over the safe upper limit when using it in conjunction with the B supplement I recommend. Not sure if the B supplement including 80mg of b6 is good or bad yet... I may switch it to B-right if it proves to be a bad idea, but for now I'm in a harmless range.

This minor change has also decreased the cost somewhat, making it as affordable as ZMK. So now it's only got 2 minor disavantages, namely no ability to lower the dosage, and possibly a little less advantegous in ATP production, though that could be bunk. I've yet to see evidence supporting a krebs cycle mineral complex actually helps there.

Attached Files

•  AA_Chelated_mineral_Stack_1.1.txt   9.68KB   133 downloads

[rwac]

Huh. I haven't read up on calcium that much. Wouldn't 75 percent of your daily intake be an alright amount? Plus it's citrate, so it's not like it's ALL getting absorbed.

Hey, what do you think about the vitamin A? Too much? I thought 40k iu seemed a little high, but maybe I can just cycle it more.

Excess Calcium can cause a bunch of problems, including kidney stones.

Use of calcium supplements and the risk of coronary heart disease in
52-62-year-old women: The Kuopio Osteoporosis Risk Factor and
Prevention Study.<h2></h2>http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19394167

...CONCLUSIONS: Calcium or calcium+D supplementation appears to increase the risk of CHD among women before old age.

Well, it's in the form of carotenes. It isn't too bad since the body doesn't convert much carotene to retinol.

[shazam]

Huh. I haven't read up on calcium that much. Wouldn't 75 percent of your daily intake be an alright amount? Plus it's citrate, so it's not like it's ALL getting absorbed.

Hey, what do you think about the vitamin A? Too much? I thought 40k iu seemed a little high, but maybe I can just cycle it more.

Excess Calcium can cause a bunch of problems, including kidney stones.

Use of calcium supplements and the risk of coronary heart disease in
52-62-year-old women: The Kuopio Osteoporosis Risk Factor and
Prevention Study.<h2></h2>http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19394167

...CONCLUSIONS: Calcium or calcium+D supplementation appears to increase the risk of CHD among women before old age.

Well, it's in the form of carotenes. It isn't too bad since the body doesn't convert much carotene to retinol.

Heh. That's the thing I don't like about these studies, you never really know what the factor is. Could have just been that they didn't have enough K to direct that calcium well. I may just switch to calcium powder to make it easier to adjust the dose. What would you view as a safe range? I'm not entirely sure how the FDA determined the daily requirement myself, but in the event that it sucks there's probably a good alternative. You know, come to think of it, it also could have been carbonate. I hear that can be harmful aside from messing with your stomach acid.

Anyway, aside from that I think I'm nearing the finished product here. It's steadily getting more expensive with small additions, but I think the most recent one, scrapping FamilE and instead getting a gamma E complex and Toco-sorb to ensure the absorption of tocotrienols is going to be the last one. All of this shit probably isn't all that necessary, thinking on it, but it may be health enhancing enough to be worth it. Stack 2.0 is attached. If you have any extras you'd recommend in addition to a different dosage of calcium, I'd be interested in hearing them. I think it may be time to really look at them in depth. That's open to ANYONE, by the way, in case you're reading this ;P.

Attached Files

•  Final_Stack_2.0.txt   9.3KB   127 downloads

[nameless]

You are taking so many things, it is difficult to easily comment on them. I will say that it appears you are taking way too much.

*expects Kismet to get all twitchy if he reads your regimen*

General comments:
Too many minerals. Too much carotene. Too much Bs, etc. And agree with Rwac, too much calcium.

I suggest instead you use the cron-o-meter program mentioned in these forums and analyze your dietary intake. Then just supplement based on deficiencies. You can add D3 (dose by serum), K2 (Mk-4 or 7, depending on which K2 studies you prefer), and perhaps a couple of other things (polyphenols, omega 3s, Ip-6, etc), but don't go overboard. Not sure if the time of day matters for dosing D3, as it has a real long half-life. And it may be a good idea to dose C and any antioxidants away from exercise, as it may hinder gains.

Edited by nameless, 26 October 2009 - 05:35 PM.

[shazam]

You are taking so many things, it is difficult to easily comment on them. I will say that it appears you are taking way too much.

*expects Kismet to get all twitchy if he reads your regimen*

General comments:
Too many minerals. Too much carotene. Too much Bs, etc. And agree with Rwac, too much calcium.

I suggest instead you use the cron-o-meter program mentioned in these forums and analyze your dietary intake. Then just supplement based on deficiencies. You can add D3 (dose by serum), K2 (Mk-4 or 7, depending on which K2 studies you prefer), and perhaps a couple of other things (polyphenols, omega 3s, Ip-6, etc), but don't go overboard. Not sure if the time of day matters for dosing D3, as it has a real long half-life. And it may be a good idea to dose C and any antioxidants away from exercise, as it may hinder gains.

'
Insulin sensitivity, to be specific. I plan on cutting it out if taking it 2 hours away from working out doesn't prevent that from happening.

Now why does that seem to be too many minerals? And bs? Are there harmful effects from all of this? Because of course, if it's actually counterproductive, then I'm cutting down. Also, what would be a better amount of calcium?

[kismet]

*expects Kismet to get all twitchy if he reads your regimen*

Too much, too soon. It may not apply to vaccination but it does apply to this regimen (mostly too much).

Random rant: You're killing yourself - Drop C, E, A, zinc (if you do eat a regular diet rich in meat) and replace Bs with pyridoxamine or P5P if you wish.

rwac, shazam, re. calcium study. It does not much to reinforce what we already knew: no need to take calcium in the young and healthy (much less in men!) who get the RDA. The study could be a fluke, there's still only weak biological plausibility backing the calcium -> CVD hypothesis* and their methodology/design/adherence sucked big time.
I'll continue w/ watchful waiting and checking the calcium literature every once in a while.

*Just to give an example: usual Ca doses do not even raise the calcium AUC by 1 or 2% and serum calcium has never been conclusively linked to CVD in the healthy (in contrast to serum phosphate). Increased calcium balance may promote calcium deposition in the vasculature, but we're not even sure if this is always a bad thing for the general population (at different stages of atherosclerosis it may *stabilise* plaques and statins possibly increase vascular calcification, which may contribute to their protective effects...)

Edited by kismet, 26 October 2009 - 06:04 PM.

[shazam]

Too much, too soon. It may not apply to vaccination but it does apply to this regimen (mostly too much).

Random rant: You're killing yourself - Drop C, E, A, zinc (if you do eat a regular diet rich in meat) and replace Bs with pyridoxamine or P5P if you wish.

Wait wait wait.... "drop" C? What for? The insulin sensitivity thing? The main reason I do this is that getting most of my vitamins from food would drive my costs up quite a bit. I buy bulk grains, legumes and rice, and use primarily protein powder for my protein intake (meat is expensive when you aren't getting it for a dollar a pound). 1 meal (of 6) a day is meat. Of a random kind, maybe beef, maybe chicken, maybe fish. The rest of my calories come from whey isolate, whey fraction, hydrolyzed whey, milk protein,EV coconut oil, olive oil, egg powder (gotta get cholesterol somewhere), and almonds (you can buy them for 2.70 a pound). Perhaps some spinach here and there for the sake of having greens (hence my hesitance to supp with regular K initially).

Perhaps an orange a day would be okay for the C, but eh... why drop it entirely? Any studies showing adverse effects? I suppose I can scale it back, but I've heard of benefits (from the vitamin C foundation forums, who pretty much watch C supplementation like hawks) at 2 grams that aren't there at lower doses.

I can kinda see the A being too high (even as beta/alpha/gamma carotene, 40kiu seems a little excessive.. I wish they carried it in smaller doses/more per container), and quite possibly the E, but I'm a little confused about the C. Is this primarily about that insulin sensitivity study? 'Cause that's the only compelling evidence I've yet to see about it. Of course, I doubt I'll die without it (been going this long without ANY supplementation), but healthier is my aim, rather than 'healthy enough'. Is there another study regarding C I should be aware of?

And why cut out A entirely (as opposed to just cycling it off more, since the carotene stores in my body will probably be full more often with that supplement)? The E, is that from the insulin sensitivity trial again? And the zinc... I believe I remember hearing a study that it actually doubled the risk of prostate cancer when supplementing it by itself, possibly with a multi. Of course, that's without much copper, so I could see that easily coming from hindering copper absorption with that mega dosing of zinc, and less plausibly from the form it was in. Are there other studies, too? Also, did you meant to suggest cutting out all the other minerals, too, or just the zinc? I'll probably cut out one or two, but I am not getting much zinc from other things as a function of budget.

Apparantly the "Lung cancer goes up with Beta carotene" study was flawed; they used a synthetic brand made in germany from BENZENE RINGS. So that might be just a little carcinogenic. Of course, I don't dose that high because I can, I dose that high because most of the other supplements aren't quite as well done as this one... Any tips for splitting softgel dosage? Poke a hole in it? Heh.

Anyways, this is sorta a wall of text, but the question could be simplified to "Why?"

Edited by Michael, 11 November 2009 - 06:31 PM.
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[nameless]

Again, I suggest you use this program:

http://spaz.ca/cronometer/

It will give you a good idea as to your daily nutrient intake. Assuming I read that right (6 meals a day?), you should be getting plenty of vits/minerals so long as you are eating veggies. Most people don't need beta carotene if they eat vegetables at all.

A couple of mineral comments: high dose selenium may increase risk of diabetes. High manganese probably isn't the best idea. Supplementing with copper is somewhat controversial & zinc is only needed if it's low in diet or if you take medications that could cause a deficiency. Excess zinc can negatively effect lipids and immune function. Kelp supplements potentially may have excess arsenic. Out of all those minerals you take, I'd probably suggest just take a sub-RDA dose (200mg) of an Albion magnesium for now. Then analyze your diet and adjust from there. If you are lowish in lots of things, a partial dose of a decent multi (assuming you can find one) may be safer and easier for you.

Edited by nameless, 26 October 2009 - 06:48 PM.

[shazam]

Again, I suggest you use this program:

http://spaz.ca/cronometer/

It will give you a good idea as to your daily nutrient intake. Assuming I read that right (6 meals a day?), you should be getting plenty of vits/minerals so long as you are eating veggies. Most people don't need beta carotene if they eat vegetables at all.

A couple of mineral comments: high dose selenium may increase risk of diabetes. High manganese probably isn't the best idea. Supplementing with copper is somewhat controversial & zinc is only needed if it's low in diet or if you take medications that could cause a deficiency. Excess zinc can negatively effect lipids and immune function. Kelp supplements potentially may have excess arsenic. Out of all those minerals you take, I'd probably suggest just take a sub-RDA dose (200mg) of an Albion magnesium for now. Then analyze your diet and adjust from there. If you are lowish in lots of things, a partial dose of a decent multi (assuming you can find one) may be safer and easier for you.

They're small meals. I've been looking at this program a little bit. It's great for meeting the RDA. That's about all I can say about it.

How would you define "Excess zinc"? Excess anything is generally a bad idea. And I won't be getting it from anything else. The only halfway decent multi I see is orthocore. And I mean HALFWAY decent. The minerals could use work =P. Maybe I'll just use orange triad instead, I despise OC's price.

I suppose I can always look into eating fruits and veggies. But I'm aiming for ECONOMICAL above all. If they end up costing more than my current formulation, I'm sticking to it unless somebody points out that it would actually be counterproductive to my health. Still haven't heard anything about cutting out C...

[nameless]

How would you define "Excess zinc"? Excess anything is generally a bad idea. And I won't be getting it from anything else. The only halfway decent multi I see is orthocore. And I mean HALFWAY decent. The minerals could use work =P. Maybe I'll just use orange triad instead, I despise OC's price.

I suppose I can always look into eating fruits and veggies. But I'm aiming for ECONOMICAL above all. If they end up costing more than my current formulation, I'm sticking to it unless somebody points out that it would actually be counterproductive to my health. Still haven't heard anything about cutting out C...

Best to stay under the UL, which I believe is 40mg. And that is diet + supplements. I recall one study where 30mg of zinc daily negatively affected lipids (in the elderly, I think), so maybe they were getting too much from diet. To be safe, probably best to stick to around the RDA, unless the situation is odd... like if a person eats tons of meat, probably no need for extra. If a person is low in zinc from diet or medications, then a little extra could be warranted. For instance, my zinc from diet is low, my serum tested low-normal, I did poorly on a zinc taste test, and I also take a medication that can lower zinc... so I take a little extra: 30mg Albion, alternate days.

And yes, if you don't eat veggies you certainly should. Excess fruits are a bad idea due to fructose, but berries are a good choice (frozen blueberries from costco is affordable).

Edited by nameless, 26 October 2009 - 07:49 PM.

[shazam]

I suppose I can always look into eating fruits and veggies. But I'm aiming for ECONOMICAL above all. ...

if you don't eat veggies you certainly should. Excess fruits are a bad idea due to fructose, but berries are a good choice (frozen blueberries from costco is affordable).

Why blueberries in particular? The anthocyanins? Black beans have anthocyanins, and I'm going to get alot of those. Good clarification on the zinc. I probably won't be getting too much, since it's 1 serving a day of meat for me, so I'll probably leave that in. As for what veggies I'm going to eat, probably spinach, which should be plenty of iron and k1, and I suppose if I was to take a minimalist approach, the vitamin A would be taken care of, too. Depending on the frequency of sales it may end up being MORE, cost wise, hahaha. I may start taking carotenoids instead of provitamin carotenoids (beta, alpha, gamma) if I decide to go that route.

After our other discussions I may bump down my C intake to 1 gram supplemented a day. Not sure what I'm going to do with vitamin E, might just leave it the way it is. Vitamin A I'm leaning either way, supplemetation or spinach. Vitamin D I'm waiting to get my test for. Vitamin K(2) I'm probably going to stick with, unless the additional K from the spinach proves harmful, in which case I may switch back to mk4 or 7. Calcium I'm probably getting a fair amount of from dairy based protein powder, so I'll scale it back using citrate powder to meet the RDA and nothing more.

Minerals are still not clear to me. I'm seeing that zinc is okay with my diet, Magnesium is okay with my diet, and most of the other stuff is 'iffy', though I see no definitive 'no's or amounts to avoid there. Are there any benefits to going over the RDA with provitamin a carotenoids, and if so, how much? Should I just stick with spinach for that?

Edit: Hmm, nevermind on the spinach, that comes out as substantially more than my supplement per month. And I've yet to see any evidence vitamin a from carotenes is HARMFUL in large amounts. Still wondering about minerals, however.

Edited by Michael, 11 November 2009 - 06:32 PM.
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[kismet]

If the summary of your diet is accurate (i.e. bascially no fruits and vegetables whatsoever), then I think it's even more important to drop all the supplements I mentioned. You are wasting your time, money and health on unproven combinations while forgoing the cheap, proven and convenient benefits of a good diet.

Supplements cannot replicate diet. No money in this world can buy you the benefits of vegetable and fruit - yet.

Edited by kismet, 26 October 2009 - 09:21 PM.

[shazam]

If the summary of your diet is accurate (i.e. bascially no fruits and vegetables whatsoever), then I think it's even more important to drop all the supplements I mentioned. You are wasting your time, money and health on unproven combinations while forgoing the cheap, proven and convenient benefits of a good diet.

Supplements cannot replicate diet. No money in this world can buy you the benefits of vegetable and fruit - yet.

Freeze dried fruit powder can. That's only a little more than a multi. However, it will not meet the vitamin requirements, which is my primary concern for this stack. Any comment on the other things I asked about?

[nameless]

I agree with Kismet that you'd be better off just spending the money on real food, veggies and fruit, instead of supplements.

Good dried fruit/veggie powders tend to cost more than actual food does, if you wish to replicate normal food doses. They also tend to taste... bleh...

I mentioned blueberries because of anthocyanins, studies done with blueberries, and the fact they taste good and you can get a big bag at Costco for about $8. You can get mixed frozen berries too, pretty cheaply.

I'm a little too lazy to find the links here to the carotene threads (you can search them), but high dose beta carotene may be a risk even in non-smokers. They did some ferret studies and came to the conclusion high doses could be dangerous, with low dosing potentially helpful. Ideally you'd just get beta carotene from the veggies you eat.

Focus more on dietary changes for now... go for real food instead of so many powders.

Edited by nameless, 26 October 2009 - 10:04 PM.

[pycnogenol]

If the summary of your diet is accurate (i.e. bascially no fruits and vegetables whatsoever), then I think it's even more important to drop all the supplements I mentioned. You are wasting your time, money and health on unproven combinations while forgoing the cheap, proven and convenient benefits of a good diet. Supplements cannot replicate diet. No money in this world can buy you the benefits of vegetable and fruit - yet.

Well said. I do take some supplements like vitamin D but I'm much more focused on diet than swallowing a bucket of pills every day.

Edited by pycnogenol, 26 October 2009 - 10:39 PM.

[shazam]

I agree with Kismet that you'd be better off just spending the money on real food, veggies and fruit, instead of supplements. ...
Focus more on dietary changes for now... go for real food instead of so many powders.

That'll drive my expenses up too much and defeat the purpose. The powders are a cheap source of protein.

I would like to see those studies, however. The one done on smokers was synthetic BC from benzene rings, so yeah, carcinogenic due to origin, but I suppose I could look a little more for other studies... that is the only study I see referenced ANYWHERE in regards to beta carotene being a risk, is the one using synthetic. '

And what do you mean 'replicate a normal food dose'? Like, get macronutrients from it? That would be stupid. I'd get them from legumes and grains, then add a little fruit powder to a shake every once in a while, 10 grams of which should be like a few (5?6?) pieces of a larger fruit if I remember correctly. What fruit they use for the benchmark I'm not entirely sure, but I bet you even if it's an orange, 5 a day is still going to be more expensive than 10 grams of fruit powder, unless you're getting overcharged stuff. That's the point of fruit powder; you get all the stuff unique to fruit without paying extra for sugar and water. If you can eat 5 pieces of fruit a day for less than 62 cents a day, lemme know where you get it.

Of course, if that's not what you mean, then what exactly does fruit have that powders don't?


Btw, I don't know if you read it earlier, but black beans have anthocyanins, too. Not sure what cooking does to that, but just letting you know.

Still not sure what is a risk and why for sure. I'll look for the beta carotene study, and I suppose look into the minerals you mentioned, but that's my main criteria for cutting something out of a stack. If I could get my vitamins and minerals from food, I would, but I can't afford that right now, as it would cost substantially more than the thirty-X dollars this is going to cost me when I get it completely figured out. So... I'm asking what is actually counterproductive, or not at all helpful in meeting requirements for vits/minerals, (and thus promoting health by keeping my body in good, but not excessive supply) from the kinds of things I've selected.

Edited by Michael, 11 November 2009 - 06:34 PM.
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[nameless]

Here is the beta carotene study I was referencing:
http://www.ajcn.org/...t/full/71/4/878

You can jump down to the beta carotene section and read about the ferrets. Short version is that high dose beta carotene negatively affected their lungs, even when not exposed to cigarette smoke.

As for greens/fruit powders, I was referring to the commonly available ones available as supplements: Berry Greens, etc. which are expensive. If you have a source of fruit powder exactly the same as real fruit and its inexpensive, then it's an option for you. Although I still consider real food better than powders.

If you don't plan to change your diet, or do a 2-3 week trial of cron-o-meter to see what you need to supplement with, the simple solution is just take a multivitamin, D3, K2, some omega 3s, maybe magnesium and be done with it. It won't be the same as eating properly, but you should avoid frank deficiencies.

Edited by nameless, 27 October 2009 - 01:04 AM.

[shazam]

Here is the beta carotene study I was referencing:
http://www.ajcn.org/...t/full/71/4/878

You can jump down to the beta carotene section and read about the ferrets. Short version is that high dose beta carotene negatively affected their lungs, even when not exposed to cigarette smoke.

As for greens/fruit powders, I was referring to the commonly available ones available as supplements: Berry Greens, etc. which are expensive. If you have a source of fruit powder exactly the same as real fruit and its inexpensive, then it's an option for you. Although I still consider real food better than powders.

If you don't plan to change your diet, or do a 2-3 week trial of cron-o-meter to see what you need to supplement with, the simple solution is just take a multivitamin, D3, K2, some omega 3s, maybe magnesium and be done with it. It won't be the same as eating properly, but you should avoid frank deficiencies.

Hmm. That's probably the direction I'm going in right now. Any reasonably priced multis you'd recommend off the top of your head? And what's the deal with cronometer? I guess since I have such a limited diet for now that I've already looked up (by hand, hahahah) to figure out my budget I don't see the big deal. I'm probably getting some magnesium and potassium from the beans, more potassium from grains and bananas, a smattering of b naturally occuring b vitamins, a little bit of C, some K from the occasional spinach, calcium from the protein powders, small amounts of zinc from the small amount of meat I eat, and that about covers it. Maybe some 'trienols from the coconut oil and various minerals/some vitamin E from nuts as well.

Also, I've heard that multis are not the way to go, since they keep some big antagonists together. Is this true, or exaggerated? Chelated minerals may help the minerals from fighting, but what would one do about C fighting with the minerals?

[nameless]

I'm not sure what you are asking when you say, 'what's the deal with cronometer'? Do you mean you vary your food intake so little, it's not a big deal calculating nutritional values? Most people eat a wide range of foods, so it's easier to use cronometer to calculate vits/minerals, fats, carbs, protein, etc. using the program.

To me, I'd say the best multi is probably one of the AORs. I would lean towards Multi-Basics, as the extras in Core don't seem worth it to me. But no AOR is exactly cheap. The AOR multis are only somewhat affordable at partial doses but if you want to take the full amount daily, it'll probably take up all of your budget.

If you want an inexpensive, good multi... hmm... err... pick a USP multi from a reputable manufacturer and just break the tablet in half? Or do the same with one of the New Chapter/yeast multis?

Edited by nameless, 27 October 2009 - 03:00 AM.

[shazam]

To me, I'd say the best multi is probably one of the AORs. I would lean towards Multi-Basics, as the extras in Core don't seem worth it to me. But no AOR is exactly cheap. The AOR multis are only somewhat affordable at partial doses but if you want to take the full amount daily, it'll probably take up all of your budget.

Ugh. I was really hoping to avoid AOR. Any input regarding multivitamins being more or less effective than seperate supplementation? I hear that certain vitamins and minerals antagonize each other, sometimes interfering with absorption. Minerals in particular, unless you happen to have them as amino acid chelates (which OC doesn't, unfortunately).

Edited by Michael, 11 November 2009 - 06:35 PM.
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[nameless]

There may be some antagonism, but it's probably not that big an issue. It may be moot, as most inexpensive multis use cheap oxides anyway, so they aren't going to absorb much in the first place. The yeast multis may be a bit better as far as mineral absorption, but they are also more expensive.

You could consider a multi-mineral (I think Now has a semi-decent one, if I remember right) + half dose multi, and go with that. Ideally someone would sell a multi-mineral without iron, without calcium, and use Albion chelates for everything else in reasonable doses -- but nobody sells that as far as I am aware.

[shazam]

There may be some antagonism, but it's probably not that big an issue. It may be moot, as most inexpensive multis use cheap oxides anyway, so they aren't going to absorb much in the first place. The yeast multis may be a bit better as far as mineral absorption, but they are also more expensive.

You could consider a multi-mineral (I think Now has a semi-decent one, if I remember right) + half dose multi, and go with that. Ideally someone would sell a multi-mineral without iron, without calcium, and use Albion chelates for everything else in reasonable doses -- but nobody sells that as far as I am aware.

God that would be sweet. They don't. Why do you think I made the stack? There would be a freakin' market for it if they did, though.

How's this look, people? http://www.iherb.com...Tablets/92?at=0
As a general rule I tend not to trust any multi that doesn't list its forms specifically (how much of what if there's more than one), and this doesn't list them at ALL, since it's food based. I'm not sure about it. I think that an unscrupulous company could use it to get away with using inferior forms immersed in food base, but I'm not sure how this multi works.

... how DOES it work? And do you know of any that don't use soy without costing too much?

I'm thinking if I go with something like this I'll be supplementing appropriate levels of D and a K2 supplement along with it, perhaps with 500mg-1g of C and that will cover the vitamins. Anyone else want to give input into how well these 'food multis' work? Still as potentially carcinogenic as synthetic beta and all the other bad stuff that supposedly comes with certain micronutrients?

[nameless]

I took that multi at one time and also tried to figure out the forms they use... I eventually got their support people to tell me most of the forms (which I've forgotten, but probably mentioned in these forums somewhere). They use the cheaper forms of minerals, but the yeast may convert some of those so they are a bit more absorbable. One flaw with it is the folate. If it's synthetic, it's too much. So probably safer (and cheaper) to just break the tablet in half and take that daily. I find pretty much all multis flawed in one way or another, but since you are on a budget, you can't be super-picky.

I think their carotenes were red palm and algae derived (or perhaps that was for their Es). If really interested, I'll see if I can dig up the info from my old emails.

You could consider half-dose of that multi, and if needed, a partial dose of Now multi-minerals (the one without iron) and it'd probably run around $8/month for both. Add D3, K2 and a low dose, inexpensive fish oil, and you may be good to go. Well, except for your lack of food and veggies, but you should at least cover basic nutritional requirements. Use any money you save to buy some salad/spinach/berries, etc.

[shazam]

I took that multi at one time and also tried to figure out the forms they use... I eventually got their support people to tell me most of the forms (which I've forgotten, but probably mentioned in these forums somewhere). They use the cheaper forms of minerals, but the yeast may convert some of those so they are a bit more absorbable. One flaw with it is the folate. If it's synthetic, it's too much. So probably safer (and cheaper) to just break the tablet in half and take that daily. I find pretty much all multis flawed in one way or another, but since you are on a budget, you can't be super-picky.

I think their carotenes were red palm and algae derived (or perhaps that was for their Es). If really interested, I'll see if I can dig up the info from my old emails.

You could consider half-dose of that multi, and if needed, a partial dose of Now multi-minerals (the one without iron) and it'd probably run around $8/month for both. Add D3, K2 and a low dose, inexpensive fish oil, and you may be good to go. Well, except for your lack of food and veggies, but you should at least cover basic nutritional requirements. Use any money you save to buy some salad/spinach/berries, etc.

It's probably the A. I've yet to see algea derived E. As for the folate claim... I don't see alot of backing for that. Hell, AOR, though not perfect, uses significant amounts of folate. Without the studies in front of me I kinda get the impression that this could easily be a terrible bang for buck thing based on whatever vaguely defined study out there is the overcaution flavor of the month. I'm gonna be busy looking them up =(

But really, what does it matter if they're palm derived or not? The way everyone talks about beta carotene they might as well be derived from plutonium. I've heard one claim that that study (or one of them, anyway) was done with a benzene derived synthetic, hence the carcinogenesis, but the study could just as easily have been the same for 'natural', looking at it a little... I'm gonna hafta track that person down, aren't I? =/

Soooo much shit to keep track of... brain hurt. What about something like this: http://www.bodybuild...rangetriad.html This seemed mediocre at best, but anybody wanna pick this one apart a little? Or that last one, for that matter?