14 replies to this topic

[jestersloath]

I just want to ask any/everyone what you think the bases or point of any and all types of religion is.....?

[Kalepha]

I think those who have religion are at the very least deists and simply are unable to fully grasp that something can come from nothing. It's also very difficult for many people to ascribe meaning in anything unless there is something more than human somewhere flipping the switches. Religion is also a good way for people to objectify morals, which can be very difficult otherwise.

[Cyto]

I simply love the quote...from someone..."Where science ends, religion begins."

Can jive well with "god of the gaps" quote too.

Oh yea, religion is childish in a sense.

[reason]

Religion is about immortality and the avoidance of personal extinction, always has been.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[kevin]

Religion is nothing more than the need to explain why bad things happen. The ultimate bad thing is of course, our own personal death, but religion is often used to try to explain, poorly, the myriad of perceived injustices in the world.

Everyone needs a savior, and someone to blame. Religion provides both.

[Lazarus Long]

Everyone does not need a savior Kevin, but we are born entirely dependent and parasitic by nature as infants and are "socialized" into symbiotic adults. The mechanism that has united the core of human structure as it evolved into more complex units than the most primary nomadic predator/forager family/clans into tribal and then sedentary villagers and finally modern urban super-social entities was religion.

Theocratic infrastructure predates all secular organization and in this respect we are still coping with the competitive aspect of these two core unifying principle models for human society. Religion reflects the organization of behavioral dependent on "belief" as it was necessary for instinctive creatures to operate with as a primary paradigm of survival in a primitive environment, but the transition we are in is a period that is seeking a "rational" determinant for behavioral choice and this is the meaning of the " Age of Reason".

Belief is the cognitive mechanism by which humans cope with subjectivity in a pragmatic manner, and it defies higher logic because of its inherent relativity. Humans still sadly rely on theocratic organization to imbue the members of the societies they occupy with a common ethical standard that becomes a behavioral "moral compass" with which to both individually determine one's actions and collectively to adjudicate the individual (sometimes even the larger groups) for them.

The funny thing about compasses that so few recognize and most blithely ignore to their peril is that they don't point only one way, they always point in two directions. Religion's "real salvation" is that it provides a social cohesiveness that allows for building our most powerful team efforts to date and even can overcome the more fundamentalist divisive "racist" tribal prejudices that often divides humanity, conquering our individual 'spirit' to ascend to meet the challenges of an age of reason but this is about the "consciousness" of spirit, not institutionalized religion.

The point of "religion" is to organize our cognitive processing of belief, they are not specifically equivalent they are related. Belief is innate, religion is the various stages of organization for that belief structure that we all to one degree or another possess. This viewpoint also takes into account the distinction of individual spirituality and institutionalized spirituality, which is a direct descendant of the memetics of social organization and adaptive to the complexity of the society in which it exists.

This model distinguishes between the cognitive psychology of belief/knowledge, spirituality/religion, and a cognitive utility and individual perception of subjective/objective "data".

Religion then becomes the various degrees of organizing subjective aspects of human behavior and cognition into socially coherent and cohesive matrices that establish primary civil structure, the second phase of this has never yet that we can identify from the historic and prehistoric record been achieved/where a transition to a secular, rational social structure has become the dominant cohesive force.

For the moment consider it a a work in progress but we always run the risk of falling back on theocratic structures as a kind of "social fail safe mechanism" this for example is what happened to the Romans and resulted in the European Dark Ages and happened to Islam resulting in their Dark Ages only slightly later.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 09 April 2004 - 05:09 PM.

[Lazarus Long]

Consider this a footnote:

All communication begins as an act of trust, essentially faith based logic. The evolution of all organized language predates religion, which in turn depends upon this kind of "trusting" activity. The psychology of behavioral choice is dependent on trust as well, and "trust" is what is at the 'heart' of "faith based reasoning". Even later development of more complex symbolic and mathematical language still requires "mutual trust" to function beyond the subjective limits of cognition.

The "determination" (making a decision) is an act of 'conviction' requisite for survival and must at times be made with insufficient data in order to ensure 'some action' is taken rather than passive inaction when meeting a threat. This decision process has developed a method of reaching "conclusion" (a moment of conviction) that is pragmatically intuitive and not purely a product of what we commonly call higher reason (deduction). This same process coincides on a collective scale with our social structures by an extension of "trust" and this is pragmatically a part of our belief system not only our knowledge base.

Trust is "logically" an act of faith, it always has been and always will be; where there is faith in belief, there will develop a system of organization called "religion," though the institutionalization of this inherently individualized "spirituality" of the intuitive (inductive reasoning) cognitive process does not require logically the development of organized religion. It reflects the efficiency of social cohesiveness that the organization provides.

It isn't called "inspirational" for no reason, belief is the wellspring for intuition and the "rational" product of inductive reasoning. The act of trust in communication is summed up as a "hope" that "understanding" is shared alike.

I suspect that we are at a cusp of human social development and the competition for primary paradigms is reflected in the secular/theist competition for control of the global body politic.

Look at some of the ideas that are articles of faith, such as Freedom, i.e. Free Will, the existence of the "self" and the ability of the self to define its own choices and even achieve an objective awareness of existence and the Universe in which such an existence coincides. In fact to a great extent even "existence" itself may be an article of faith. The power of the "will" (small 'w' in deference this time to Bill O'Rights) is predicated on a power of belief, more than just knowledge, it is the directive force (energy) that applies what we "know" (objective data) based on what we believe (motivation).

Oh, you don't agree?

Perhaps you suspect it is only a product of empirical perception and cumulative data collection? Do we simply believe the result and assume that which has always been always shall be?

Now prove it.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 08 April 2004 - 04:45 PM.

[DJS]

Thank you thank you! Everyone else here (including me [lol] ) adds there own flippant opinions and you drop two well thought out logical statements.

I find your line of reasoning to be invaluable, although admittedly I am still trying to get a handle on some of it. Will comment on this when I have time...

[quadclops]

For those who believe in it, religion gives meaning to existance. It explains the how's and why's of the universe. It gives purpose to the often confusing randomness of life. It gives assurance that death is not the end, and that if you live a certain kind of life, you will be rewarded with a better state of being in the hereafter. It brings comfort and fulfillment to the suffering, and/or downtrodden. It gives certainty in the midst of chaos.

Unfortunately, the whole thing is a delusion! The gods and religions were created by human beings, and there is no concrete evidence that any of them are factual. None can be proven true.

If the resources lavished on religion could be rerouted into transhumanism research, immortality and the singularity could probably already have been achieved by now!

Still, I can't blame the believers for their need to believe. Some of the awful truths of mortal reality are pretty hard to face. [mellow]

[micah]

What is the point of philosophy? What is the point of society?

These are the same kind of questions. "Society makes people good"..."society makes people kill each other"...

These are generalizations, the same as all of these posts about religion. One can't properly ask the point of religion (or philosophy or society); one could more properly ask the point of a particular religion, or even, "most religions".

-micah

[Lazarus Long]

micah says:
These are generalizations, the same as all of these posts about religion. One can't properly ask the point of religion (or philosophy or society); one could more properly ask the point of a particular religion, or even, "most religions".

Why can't we ask these questions micah?

Philosophy has asked these very questions for all of its history, both of itself and of society. Societies ask the same questions of themselves that is why they grow and evolve or they fail and decay. We constantly question and it is very legitimate and vital to our interests to do so.

[darktr00per]

The Lucifer Principle by Howard Bloom---good book it covers alot on this topic. Its an amazing book. http://www.howardbloom.net/

[micah]

The reason we can't ask these questions is because they are generalizations. Not all religions have the same point.

-micah

[Mind]

To me religion seems like a short-cut. Instead of pondering the mysteries of the universe, or engaging in research and discovery, a person can just say "it is all in god's hands, or it is all god's plan" and not have to worry.

When I was young, and someone told me there was a heaven, all I could do was ask questions about it. What came before god? What is above of heaven? What is beyond heaven? Where is heaven?

When I learned more about the world, I easily replaced the words "god" and "heaven" with "universe", ie. what came before the universe? I realized that the answers religion provided were just for the things that are "unexplained". Religions give an "easy answer" to the meaning of life.

That being said, I am officially agnostic. I cannot know for sure if there is some god somewhere looking over us, same as I can't be for sure if I am living in a simulation. To avoid mental paralysis I have to trust what my senses feed my mind. I have to believe what I see, hear, smell, taste, and feel, right now. I don't see a god. I have never seen a god or an angel. No one I know has ever seen a god, an angel, or heaven. The world and all its wonders are just as beautiful to me with or without a god.

[arrogantatheist]

First let me say it has different meaning depending which way you are judging it.

Fundamentally religions are a product of meme evolution. The strong survive. They are complete with mutations and speciation, and new memes coming into existence everyday. The ones that survive, and pass on to other people the best, are by definition the most widespread and strongest. Namely the two major players Christianity and Islam. Once you understand religion in this way it becomes shocking just how powerful they are. And it also explains how brilliantly the belief system works together to stay alive and spread in its habitat. The minds of human beings.

For example in christianity if you don't have 100% faith you cannot get into heaven. Therefore merely reading about other beliefs or even opposing views to christianity is a very dangerous game indeed. This kept my mother a believer for 35 years. When the topic of religion came up and most of my family is atheist scientist types she would leave the room. She was terrified deep inside that something we said would make her question her own faith.

Now eventualy she got overwhelmed and heard the arguments at which point she had to admit ya it is just total bullshit. But it took 10 years of being around an entire family of atheists before she let herself think about it. Remember an eternity in heaven is a scary prospect indeed if you believe in eternity. Would you listen to conflicting views if you felt that if you didn't have 100% faith you would be sent there? I would but I have a scary thirst for knowledge. Most wouldn't and never do though.

This examle is just one of the huge number of brilliant ways the meme survives. A clear product of a long and sometimes extremely violent evolutionary proccess.