17 replies to this topic

[wildfun]

I'm relatively new to the world of Nootropics and I was hoping for some advice. I have been taking 25mg of Dexedrine (amphetamine) a day for the past 5-6 years. I'm prescribed this for ADHD but lately I haven't been able to stay focused or concentrate, the Dexedrine just keeps me in a anxious state. The problem is when I try to taper it off or stop taking it I'm practically in a coma. I get extremely depressed, I fall asleep just about anywhere or while doing anything, getting out of bed is a huge ordeal, and my work and school life just goes down the toilet.

From what I read about cocaine and amphetamine withdrawal after long term use, this debilitating period could last a year or more, since my dopamine must be so depleted.

I'm trying to figure out a nootropic stack that would help replenish my dopamine stores and get me through the nightmare of dexedrine withdrawal. Previously I managed to take a month long break with L-Glutamine -750mg and DL-Pheynlalanine -500mg (+Vitamin B6&C). This allowed me to decrease my tolerance to Dexedrine so I wouldn't have to increase my dose. It kept me alert and sort of helped with clarity but in a really spacey, personality-altering way. I felt like a robot. I think taking the DL-Phenylalanine instead of L-phenylalanine may have been part of the problem, but it was all I could find at the time.

I am considering some sort of stack of one or more of the following: Piracetam, DMAE, Choline, Acetyl-L-Carnitne, etc. Whatever would be most effective alone or combined. I'm open to all suggestions since I'm still in the early stages of research. I'm If anyone has any experience with discontinuing amphetamine use in exchange for nootropics, please let me know what worked and what didn't.

Other things to note:
I'm vegetarian, so I'd pay more for non-animal sources in supplements.
I'm female, short, 110lbs. (if that factors into dosing suggestions).
My budget is pretty flexible, a max would be $200 a month.
I live in Canada, so whatever can be bought / safely imported here.

If you think you have any knowledge whatsoever that could be helpful, please write! Thanks in advance.

[EmbraceUnity]

To improve energy, mood, and focus I would recommend Modafinil, Carnitine, Green Tea, and Dark Chocolate (80% or higher). Those won't heavily impact dopamine, but there are few things besides prescriptions that will do that. It wouldn't hurt to continue the amino acids that are working for you. Perhaps chocolate extracts like chocamine or PEA might be the best for safely boosting your dopamine... though be sure to moderate your doses.

Piracetam, DMAE, Choline, etc will do nothing for dopamine or energy levels.

Edited by progressive, 01 November 2009 - 10:26 AM.

[steven d]

I'm using the supplement combination high dosage krill oil + phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin against ADD and find it much more effective then dexedrine. Perhaps you should use that instead of dexedrine. Please take a look at my thread.

http://www.imminst.o...and-t34189.html

[wildfun]

To improve energy, mood, and focus I would recommend Modafinil, Carnitine, Green Tea, and Dark Chocolate (80% or higher). Those won't heavily impact dopamine, but there are few things besides prescriptions that will do that. It wouldn't hurt to continue the amino acids that are working for you. Perhaps chocolate extracts like chocamine or PEA might be the best for safely boosting your dopamine... though be sure to moderate your doses.

Piracetam, DMAE, Choline, etc will do nothing for dopamine or energy levels.

Thanks I'm looking into the things you suggested, the Dark chocolate is particularly enticing haha. I'm considering this PEA supplement from Neurvana Neurvana Mood Brightener supplement thing

It seems to have a good balance of other vitamins and amino acids as well. One thing that worries me about this product is how it says it can increase libido. I feel like my libido is through the roof lately and it's already driving me nuts. I just got dumped too so no good will come of this! I started taking 5HTP again because I get seasonal depression and it seems to really help. Could this be part of the er, problem?

While the Piracetam, DMAE and choline wont help dopamine or energy, wouldn't they be beneficial for concentration and ADHD issues at all?

[LIB]

I'm using the supplement combination high dosage krill oil + phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin against ADD and find it much more effective then dexedrine. Perhaps you should use that instead of dexedrine. Please take a look at my thread.

http://www.imminst.o...and-t34189.html

I'd look into this as well. While I was never formally diagnosed with ADD or anything, and I've only taken dexedrine/adderall on a few occasions, PS + Fish oil is really helping me. I'm going to take krill soon to see if I get even more of a boost.

Edited by LIB, 02 November 2009 - 01:12 AM.

[wildfun]

I'm using the supplement combination high dosage krill oil + phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin against ADD and find it much more effective then dexedrine. Perhaps you should use that instead of dexedrine. Please take a look at my thread.

http://www.imminst.o...and-t34189.html

This would be better for me if the krill supplements didn't pose such ethical issues for me if I were to take them them. I should get some supplemental oils, but I would prefer a plant based one. Thanks though, I did read the thread. I'm still trying to learn more about lecithin, but I'm considering it.

[Pike]

magnesium, the b-vitamins, vitamin b-6 in particular, and fish oil+vitamin e have are all supplements that are all cheap as dirt and have all shown great efficacy in treating ADHD; some performing just as well as methylphenidate. STAY AWAY from glutamine if you're taking anything dopamine acting (i.e. dexedrine, tyrosine, phenylalanine, ETC.)

magnesium is probably the cheapest of them all, get any form you want EXCEPT the magnesium-oxide for, which i guess isn't really absorbed by your body that well.

pyridoxamine used to be on the market, but it's getting scarce now. it WAS the best vitamin b-6 out there, though. p-5-p is still a really cheap form of b-6.

fish oils take a while to build up in your system. i think all of the studies show it took 6 weeks to notice an effect. it used to be thought that DHA was the more important of the omega-3s for ADHD, but as it was shown in one study, the DHA-heavy omega 3 supplements were largely ineffective for ADHD treatment, and the higher EPA ratio omega-3 supplements faired way better.

in terms of nootropics, if you're not experienced with them yet, i'd start mild. give yourself at least 2-3 weeks before introducing a new one into your supplement regimen. a lot of beginners make the mistake of taking way too many nootropics for their body to handle, and then post up here complaining about side effects. so avoid the risk and just take it slow and easy with noots.

i'd say acetyl-l-carnitine is a very good way to start out. 500mg on an empty stomach 3 times a day should be a good way to dose it out. you wont want to take more than 500mg at one time, because your body won't even absorb it. if you have the extra cash to fork out, acetyl-l-carnitine-arginate has shown some promise over it's older cousin. if you really want to get spicy, you can have a little carnitine-ensemble and throw propionyl-l-carnitine into the mix (but PLC hasn't shown any cognitive benefits so far, only cardiovascular benefits).

if you're going to go with cholines, don't use them just for the sake of taking them with a 'racetam. have experience with some of the more mild noots before you get into racetams and whatnot. if you don't mind the taste of them, choline citrate and bitartrate are cheap as hell. CDP-Choline isn't too bad, depending on where you buy it from. Alpha-GPC is a waste of money. Centrophenoxine is a choline in a class of its own. if you like DMAE, then give Centophenoxine a try, because centro is kind of like DMAE's 6'5 really buff younger cousin. if you find that you're really sensitive to supplementing cholines, well lucky you, you can save yourself a ton of money and just stick to good ol' lecithin!

i'd give piracetam a try after you've already had some experience with using nootropics and have already done like 2 weeks of solid research on it and generally know what you're getting into.

anyway, good luck! nootropics have helped me come a long way with my ADHD. hope they do for you!

[Zoroaster]

This would be better for me if the krill supplements didn't pose such ethical issues for me if I were to take them them. I should get some supplemental oils, but I would prefer a plant based one. Thanks though, I did read the thread. I'm still trying to learn more about lecithin, but I'm considering it.

There's always flax seed oil for a plant-based omega-3 option. Not as good as krill oil or fish oil but for women it actually works decently well.

[yowza]

You'd have to take mega amounts of certain precursors to even get an effect probably.

Check out http://www.chknutrition.com/. They have a telephone number listed that you can call and ask about their products. They deal specifically with "nuerotransmitter replacement therapy" so they may be somewhat helpful since they often times deal with people ordering supplements from them as an alternative to stimulants.

I for some reason don't think that there really is an alternative to dexedrine. Even if you take these supplements they're not going to really have the interfering mechanism that a medication like dexedrine would have. In other words they're not going to force dopamine to be released if a person's brain chemistry for some reason doesn't want to. Supplements may be helpful more for some people than others. The best bet is to try and find maybe if galantamine (brand name reminyl not the generic supplement stuff) works for you... This works as an agonist on nicotine receptors (one of the 2 types of acetylcholine receptors) which can release dopamine indirectly.

Other than that there's nothing really out there. Other Cholinergic inhibitors (besides galantamine) are out there; however, these don't act as agonists along nicotine receptors really and tend to inhibit acety.]lcholine too potently. Aricept has a really long half life (although at least it only selectively tends to inhibit acetylcholinesterase) and rivastigmine shouldn't be used by anyone without parkinsons (this one inhibits butycholinesterase, which is a liver enzyme and is not good).

Any other options such as Ampakines are supposed to be helpful but they're a long way from the market. They work via glutamergic pathways (via the Ampa receptor).

However, one particular drug that some people seem to have found helpful for attention issues is Cerebrolysin (this possibly could be the best bet). Not too many people know about this but this is said to have a pretty potent affect that can be felt unlike a lot of nootropics out there. Phenotropil may be another option but this is relatively expensive (although there are some people from Russia here on this thread that may be willing to cut a deal with you) and tolerance can build up pretty quickly from what I've been told. I've had the chance to try phenotropil and there is a real effect unlike the other racetams but it may die off pretty quickly.

Of course, there's also modafinil although this still has some sides similar to stimulants to some degree (even though it doesn't interfere with brain chemistry as much). It's best for maintaining a state of wakefullness and does help with attention to some degree.

Edited by yowza, 03 November 2009 - 08:46 AM.

[longroad]

[quote name='Pike' timestamp='1257137260' post='359159']
STAY AWAY from glutamine if you're taking anything dopamine acting (i.e. dexedrine, tyrosine, phenylalanine, ETC.)

The literature for dex also warns of this (says to tell your doctor, anyway). What is the reason? Cancels out Dex?

[sam7777]

Rhodiola and Schizandra can be helpful, but seem to work best at a dose dependent level, in your case and weight, a low level.

Some people combine about 100-500 mg of quercetin, rutin, depreynl, hordenine, or or even rhodiola with doses of PEA (phenylethylamine) between 200 and 600 to 800 mg. This has a U shaped dose effect, with stimulant and tension side effects above the "magic" dose, and no effect below the effective dose, so experimenting is required.

Schizandra is quite potent, as it acts on the metabolism and liver, and is also a powerful inhibitor of acetylcholinesterase.

One reason Adderall has the withdrawl properties, is because it can tax and stress the endocrine system, so you may need adrenal tonics, thyroid supplements, and adaptogens to go along with nootropics. This is especially difficult to sort out regarding doses.

Some cite mucuna pruriens as working, but my brand doesn't seem to work, or like schizandra, only serves to increase anger/agitation/edgyness.

You have to kind of play back and forth with cholinergic supplements vs. dopamine altering supplements. Basically, I think throwing all the raw parts on the brain so to speak does no good, if it doesn't use them correctly (or the endocrine and central nervous system prevent it from doing so...) e.g anger/agitation/edgyness/confusion/anxiety/intense fatigue.

[Isochroma]

Wildfun, I suffered the same symptoms as you. Amphetamines are not healthy and will make your problems worse as they aggravate precisely the situation you're in. Long-term burnout is the eventual destination of amphetamine users, unfortunately. Along the way they also suffer from loss of brain mass and other deleterious effects.

It's not about whether your Dexedrine/Adderall/Ritalin can be replaced with nootropics - or anything else - it's when. Even if stims work fine initially the nasty combo of tolerance and adrenal exhaustion will eat away all the good effects in time. And the longer you ride that train the less likely you'll ever see a benefit from the racetams - which won't work at all in folks with wrecked adrenals. The stims cause adrenal wreckage.

Getting off the junk will leave you temporarily in a 'worse' feeling spot as far as brain function. It won't likely be pleasant but the alternative of continuation is far worse.

Eat well, supplement well and order a kilo of piracetam. I use Cerebral Health. I've received every single order to my home in Canada within two weeks for the last two years - once a month.

Piracetam or the racetam of your choice along with a decent natural choline source (NOT supplements - use meat, eggs & dairy) and some basic vitmains/minerals will build up your brain health and within a month or two that horrible unfocus/tiredness/sleepiness will fade away, never to return. That's the lovely experience I was treated to - remember though I took full 'attack' dose of 4g every 4 hours until the supply was gone. Don't bother pussyfooting around as low doses will only make the recovery take much longer. And don't wait another day to give the nootropics a try. The risk is zero and the rewards are enormous. Enough for me that I spend 1/3 of my disposable income on piracetam - because it's worth it.

Besides the nootropics, THE best thing you can do to heal your brain and make it work like a jet engine is fish oil. Not the pipsqueak doses of 1-4g/day but decent amounts starting at 7g per day to 21g per day. If you don't believe these doses are both safe and effective just check the bodybuilding forums - start at MindandMuscle. Those guys use it both to help with body metabolism and for its mental effects - often stacking it with nootropics as well. Fish oil doubles piracetam's power when taken at decent doses and powerfully synergizes with any brain supplements and also works excellently on its own.

Not to mention that whatever other stuff you take, in order to rebuild the brain decent amouns of EPA and DHA are needed - they form the structure of neurons and are the key component of the brain's total function. Plus, fish oil by itself has been shown to work better than Ritalin at relieving ADD/ADHD and learning problems that plague children students today - as many studies have found. I have them saved if you want to read them.

Edited by Isochroma, 02 August 2011 - 04:33 AM.

[Thorsten3]

Besides the nootropics, THE best thing you can do to heal your brain and make it work like a jet engine is fish oil. Not the pipsqueak doses of 1-4g/day but decent amounts starting at 7g per day to 21g per day. If you don't believe these doses are both safe and effective just check the bodybuilding forums - start at MindandMuscle. Those guys use it both to help with body metabolism and for its mental effects - often stacking it with nootropics as well. Fish oil doubles piracetam's power when taken at decent doses and powerfully synergizes with any brain supplements and also works excellently on its own.

I don't actually agree with this. It might be helpful for your piracetam habit but I've seen evidence to the contrary. I think fish oil is healthy but taking it in those doses is unneccessary in my opinion. What a healthy person should be more concerned with is their n-6/n-3 ratio. Too much n-6 or too much n-3 will screw you up either way (health wise). If you hyperdose any type of fat it might potentially lead to problems.

You mention the guys over at M&M and there are indeed some very knowledgable posters there. But are the top guys taking that much fish oil? (i.e, guys like funkOddessey, ex dubio and benson). You'll find that they don't and I put far more value on their opinion to the everyday meat heads that post in the bodybuilding sections over there.

Incidentally though I used piracetam successfully for about 6 months and absolutely loved it. Downhill from there though where I crashed every time that powder touched my tongue. I got extremely crabby and I was just horrible to be around so yeah It never worked since then. I often get tempted to buy some more but judging by my last attempts at a rendevous with the drug I know it would be pointless. I think you just have a completely amazing individual reaction to it. It's a bit silly for the rest of us to even try and enjoy it like you do.

Nowadays I concentrate on the very thing that has actually been causing my problems all this time (my mood disorder) and not wasting my time with nootropics. No offence but you talk about nootropics being amazing when the only success you've had is with piracetam, oxiracetam and methylene blue. I wouldn't call that a good reason to recommend people jump on the nootropics bandwagon.

Edited by Thorsten2, 02 August 2011 - 06:22 PM.

[lourdaud]

Isochroma: Arghhh.... I don't want to believe you!
Right now I take 17,5 mg of dexamphetamine per day and I really can't go any lower than that.. oh yeah, I could, but even when I've tried to not take more than 12,5 I don't get anything done and.. yeah, you know the feeling, I'm just not present.. Only reason that I'm on 17,5 mg right now, and not 22,5 - 25 as before, is that I've started PIRACETAM :D:D Yes, I'm starting to really see some improvements although it's only been a bit more than a week.. if not I probably wouldn't be writing this, hehe..
But as someone said, I've never found anything that works as well as Dexedrine does (among other things, I've been taking and I continue to take 10 grams of Omega-3 per day).. but you do make me concerned when you mention "adrenaline exhaustion". Is it completly certain that this, someday, will arrive even when staying on a fairly low dose of dex???
anyway, I'll try to cope with 15 mg of dex tomorrow, we'll see how well it goes!

[Isochroma]

Yes, not only adrenal exhaustion but permanent loss of brain mass. It was found along with classic amphetamine-type damages in apes fed exactly the 'small' ADHD doses that are (crime) given to children to 'treat' the disorder.

I have the study on drive if you want to see it. There is no safe dose of amphetamine, and amphetamine/stimulants make the problem they symptomatically treat far worse both by the direct damages they cause and the tolerance/downregulation of various neurotransmitter systems.

The fact that you can still get those neurotoxic chemicals is solely due to Big Pharma's megadollars buying off legislators and the FDA.

Edited by Isochroma, 02 August 2011 - 08:52 PM.

[kassem23]

Yes, not only adrenal exhaustion but permanent loss of brain mass. It was found along with classic amphetamine-type damages in apes fed exactly the 'small' ADHD doses that are (crime) given to children to 'treat' the disorder.

I have the study on drive if you want to see it. There is no safe dose of amphetamine, and amphetamine/stimulants make the problem they symptomatically treat far worse both by the direct damages they cause and the tolerance/downregulation of various neurotransmitter systems.

The fact that you can still get those neurotoxic chemicals is solely due to Big Pharma's megadollars buying off legislators and the FDA.

I'd very much like to see the study. Does it really imply that low-dosage amphetamine causes neurotoxicity in vivo? The only studies I have seen suggests that it increases the risk of Parkinson's disease, but that the dosages are unknown.

Edited by kassem23, 02 August 2011 - 09:06 PM.

[Isochroma]

The most interesting thing about the study below is that they not only used the exact same 'small' doses given to children for ADHD, but they also used the same administration - orally using juice. The goal was to as closely simulate what children are exposed to as possible, both quantitatively and qualitatively.

The full PDF is available on the site too. The full text is too large to paste here - and won't copy properly anyway.

Amphetamine Treatment Similar to That Used in the Treatment of Adult Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder Damages Dopaminergic Nerve Endings in the Striatum of Adult Nonhuman Primates

I will quote from the Discussion:

"To our knowledge, this is the first study in which oral self-administration of amphetamine has been used to evaluate the neurotoxic potential of amphetamine in nonhuman primates and to demonstrate that plasma levels of amphetamine that produce brain dopaminergic neurotoxic changes in the primate central nervous system are on the order of those reported in some patients with ADHD treated with amphetamine (see below). In particular, the results of the present study indicate that an oral regimen of amphetamine, modeled after dosing regimens used in patients with ADHD, engenders plasma amphetamine concentrations that result in toxicity to brain dopaminergic axon terminals in baboons and squirrel monkeys. These results may have implications for the pathophysiology and treatment of ADHD and raise the question of whether or not plasma monitoring might be indicated in ADHD patients receiving higher, chronic doses of amphetamine."

"Thus, plasma concentrations of amphetamine achieved clinically in patients receiving chronic amphetamine for the treatment of ADHD appear to be on the order of those shown here to produce dopaminergic neurotoxic effects in adult baboons and squirrel monkeys."

Before anyone replies asking about the relevance of using baboons, remember that this type of experiment can't be done in living humans - the animals had to be killed and their brains cut open to find the damages. Unless the Nazis take over again there will never be such experiments in humans due to the law.

So this is as close as we will get to answers. The results of this experiment agree with numerous others that find the same stereotypical damages caused by amphetamines. There is no reason to doubt the results are also applicable to humans.

Finally, this study doesn't reveal the damages done by amphetamine in other organs of the body - adrenals in particular. It also does not count the long-term tolerance induced by chronic amphetamine use.

Edited by Isochroma, 02 August 2011 - 09:38 PM.

[kassem23]

Actually, Isochroma, that study by Ricaurte, I myself posted on M&M, and enough said, they did provide some fair points as to why that cannot be applied to humans.

See the thread here: http://www.mindandmu...nues#post553060

That said, yes, there is the potential of long-term damage, especially given the increased risk of Parkinson's disease -- which, by itself -- is highly daunting.

Moreover, the idea that adrenals are "fatigued", is in no-way substantiated, and despite doctors "claming" that there is something called adrenal fatigue, the adrenals do -- in actuality -- not become fatigued. Adrenal fatigue is basically just an umbrella-term for whatever HPA-axis perturbation one may have. There are A LOT of posts on Mindandmuscle regarding this, and fully substantiated with several PubMed references. (EDIT: I found the link for the topic here: http://www.mindandmu...adrenal-fatigue -- if that is what you refer to when you say adrenal fatigue, then I agree with you)

That said, I do believe that if other potential remedies exist, those should be targeted first, and stimulants avoided, as all stimulants cause side-effects to some-degree, and well, living without side-effects is better than living with them.

Edited by kassem23, 03 August 2011 - 12:04 AM.