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#1 ajnast4r

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:05 AM


original thread

my current recommendation is 100mcg methylcobalamin... if anyone else has other suggestion please post reasons:

my reasoning:

1-3% is b12 is absorbed through passive diffusion, so even with a complete lack of intrinsic factor you would still absorb ~2mcg. most of us would be absorbing significantly more.

#2 shazam

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:24 AM

I have not done sufficient research to give good feedback. Why do people usually dose so high (2 MG a day?) in supplementation communities? Is it related to your comment, or is there evidence that the RDA is low aside from the issue of bioavailability? Likin' the methyl, of course.

#3 Pike

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:37 AM

i'll just throw out an arbitrary 200mcg. Not conservative by multivitamin standards, but definitely not excessive by life-extenionist standards.

do you think 200mcg is a sufficient dose for a positive methylation effect?

edit: we could also use dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin) if it's cheaper!

Edited by Pike, 05 November 2009 - 09:38 AM.


#4 Blue

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:50 AM

I vote for at least 250 mcg. That is the lowest dose I have seen mentioned against the not uncommon intrinsic factor deficiency.

#5 shazam

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:51 AM

i'll just throw out an arbitrary 200mcg. Not conservative by multivitamin standards, but definitely not excessive by life-extenionist standards.

do you think 200mcg is a sufficient dose for a positive methylation effect?

edit: we could also use dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin) if it's cheaper!


Seconded. Or is that thirded... :)

It may be a little too early to tell, though. Methyl may have more advantages than just a few extra percentage points in bioavailability.

I DO remember seeing a study a little while back that said Cyanocobalamin was no less B-A than methyl and other popular forms, though... not sure how well done it was, but it seemed to be a human study testing some kind of level of it if I recall. I have no idea where it is now. I found that forever ago and didn't quite know what I had.

Still, I'd stick with Methyl since it's co-enzyme. If you wanted to bump up the count a little... well, I'd say use more methyl, but if it's the expense nail in the reasonable pricing coffin, maybe diben'll work.

Edited by shazam, 05 November 2009 - 09:56 AM.


#6 Pike

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:06 AM

i'll just throw out an arbitrary 200mcg. Not conservative by multivitamin standards, but definitely not excessive by life-extenionist standards.

do you think 200mcg is a sufficient dose for a positive methylation effect?

edit: we could also use dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin) if it's cheaper!


Seconded. Or is that thirded... :)

It may be a little too early to tell, though. Methyl may have more advantages than just a few extra percentage points in bioavailability.

I DO remember seeing a study a little while back that said Cyanocobalamin was no less B-A than methyl and other popular forms, though...


if that was the case, i'd be in favor of using plain old cyano-b12 AS LONG as it was on a 1:1 ratio with hydroxycobalamin to offset the cyanide. granted, the cyanide intake from the cyanide molecule attached to cyano-b12 is probably so small that it's inconsequential, but the implications for a life-extensionist community to include it in our multi strikes me as a bit contradictory.

on that note, however, maybe we could save money by the creation of a "cobalamin complex." if we created a complex of methyl-b12, adenosyl-b12, and hydroxy-b12 all together (perhaps in a 2:2:1 or 1:1:1 ratio), we could include a little less of each while still promoting the benefits of each. we could use the inclusion of hydroxy-b12 to market the mutlivitamin towards smokers as well, as it's cyanide chelating properties are effective enough to warrant the FDA's approval for its use against cyanide poisoning.

#7 shazam

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:33 AM

i'll just throw out an arbitrary 200mcg. Not conservative by multivitamin standards, but definitely not excessive by life-extenionist standards.

do you think 200mcg is a sufficient dose for a positive methylation effect?

edit: we could also use dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin) if it's cheaper!


Seconded. Or is that thirded... :)

It may be a little too early to tell, though. Methyl may have more advantages than just a few extra percentage points in bioavailability.

I DO remember seeing a study a little while back that said Cyanocobalamin was no less B-A than methyl and other popular forms, though...


if that was the case, i'd be in favor of using plain old cyano-b12 AS LONG as it was on a 1:1 ratio with hydroxycobalamin to offset the cyanide. granted, the cyanide intake from the cyanide molecule attached to cyano-b12 is probably so small that it's inconsequential, but the implications for a life-extensionist community to include it in our multi strikes me as a bit contradictory.

on that note, however, maybe we could save money by the creation of a "cobalamin complex." if we created a complex of methyl-b12, adenosyl-b12, and hydroxy-b12 all together (perhaps in a 2:2:1 or 1:1:1 ratio), we could include a little less of each while still promoting the benefits of each. we could use the inclusion of hydroxy-b12 to market the mutlivitamin towards smokers as well, as it's cyanide chelating properties are effective enough to warrant the FDA's approval for its use against cyanide poisoning.

THAT is bloody boss. However, there's only one of those forms that is a coenzyme one.... it's worth looking into, though, I like the idea.

#8 Pike

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:56 AM

actually, adenosyl-b12 is also a coenzyme form and is biologically active!

hydroxy-b12 isn't, however. but it is still naturally occurring, unlike cyano-b12.

#9 shazam

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 11:03 AM

actually, adenosyl-b12 is also a coenzyme form and is biologically active!

hydroxy-b12 isn't, however. but it is still naturally occurring, unlike cyano-b12.


Cool again. I gotta say, when it comes to forms, country life has some great stuff in their coenzyme b complex. Great resource for steali- ..."researching" ideas about the B-complex. The doses are aaaaaalllllll fucked up, though.

Edited by shazam, 05 November 2009 - 11:03 AM.


#10 Blue

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 11:03 AM

i'll just throw out an arbitrary 200mcg. Not conservative by multivitamin standards, but definitely not excessive by life-extenionist standards.

do you think 200mcg is a sufficient dose for a positive methylation effect?

edit: we could also use dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin) if it's cheaper!


Seconded. Or is that thirded... :)

It may be a little too early to tell, though. Methyl may have more advantages than just a few extra percentage points in bioavailability.

I DO remember seeing a study a little while back that said Cyanocobalamin was no less B-A than methyl and other popular forms, though...


if that was the case, i'd be in favor of using plain old cyano-b12 AS LONG as it was on a 1:1 ratio with hydroxycobalamin to offset the cyanide. granted, the cyanide intake from the cyanide molecule attached to cyano-b12 is probably so small that it's inconsequential, but the implications for a life-extensionist community to include it in our multi strikes me as a bit contradictory.

on that note, however, maybe we could save money by the creation of a "cobalamin complex." if we created a complex of methyl-b12, adenosyl-b12, and hydroxy-b12 all together (perhaps in a 2:2:1 or 1:1:1 ratio), we could include a little less of each while still promoting the benefits of each. we could use the inclusion of hydroxy-b12 to market the mutlivitamin towards smokers as well, as it's cyanide chelating properties are effective enough to warrant the FDA's approval for its use against cyanide poisoning.

THAT is bloody boss. However, there's only one of those forms that is a coenzyme one.... it's worth looking into, though, I like the idea.

Hydroxycobalamin is approved by the FDA in high dose intravenous form. Advertising as having an effect against smoking would likely at best cause cease-and-desist letters from the FDA. Also, it would be good if sources were cited for various claims. Is there any soruces for adenosyl-b12 or hydroxy-b12 having specific good properties or are available in oral form?

Edited by Blue, 05 November 2009 - 11:05 AM.


#11 Pike

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 12:24 PM

i'll just throw out an arbitrary 200mcg. Not conservative by multivitamin standards, but definitely not excessive by life-extenionist standards.

do you think 200mcg is a sufficient dose for a positive methylation effect?

edit: we could also use dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin) if it's cheaper!


Seconded. Or is that thirded... ;)

It may be a little too early to tell, though. Methyl may have more advantages than just a few extra percentage points in bioavailability.

I DO remember seeing a study a little while back that said Cyanocobalamin was no less B-A than methyl and other popular forms, though...


if that was the case, i'd be in favor of using plain old cyano-b12 AS LONG as it was on a 1:1 ratio with hydroxycobalamin to offset the cyanide. granted, the cyanide intake from the cyanide molecule attached to cyano-b12 is probably so small that it's inconsequential, but the implications for a life-extensionist community to include it in our multi strikes me as a bit contradictory.

on that note, however, maybe we could save money by the creation of a "cobalamin complex." if we created a complex of methyl-b12, adenosyl-b12, and hydroxy-b12 all together (perhaps in a 2:2:1 or 1:1:1 ratio), we could include a little less of each while still promoting the benefits of each. we could use the inclusion of hydroxy-b12 to market the mutlivitamin towards smokers as well, as it's cyanide chelating properties are effective enough to warrant the FDA's approval for its use against cyanide poisoning.

THAT is bloody boss. However, there's only one of those forms that is a coenzyme one.... it's worth looking into, though, I like the idea.

Hydroxycobalamin is approved by the FDA in high dose intravenous form. Advertising as having an effect against smoking would likely at best cause cease-and-desist letters from the FDA. Also, it would be good if sources were cited for various claims. Is there any soruces for adenosyl-b12 or hydroxy-b12 having specific good properties or are available in oral form?


well, aside from cyanide chelation, hydroxy has none that i know of.

as for adenosylcobalamin:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2076192

an effective anti-tumoral agent!

#12 ajnast4r

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:58 PM

imo, using dibencozide would be wastefully expensive as methylb12 converts readily to dibencozide. i wouldnt be opposed to hydroxy-b12 if it were cheaper than methyl.

perhaps a 50/50 dose of methyl & hydroxy might be good?

#13 shazam

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 08:23 PM

imo, using dibencozide would be wastefully expensive as methylb12 converts readily to dibencozide. i wouldnt be opposed to hydroxy-b12 if it were cheaper than methyl.

perhaps a 50/50 dose of methyl & hydroxy might be good?


Is dibencozide more expensive or something?

#14 Pike

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 06:49 PM

well, since nobody has commented on ajnast4r's suggestion, i'll say: i'm in favor of a 50/50 methyl/hydroxy mix UNDER THE CONDITION that hydroxy-b12 is cheaper than methyl-b12.

#15 shazam

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:30 AM

well, since nobody has commented on ajnast4r's suggestion, i'll say: i'm in favor of a 50/50 methyl/hydroxy mix UNDER THE CONDITION that hydroxy-b12 is cheaper than methyl-b12.


As long as we're getting at least 100mg of methyl I'm cool with that. I don't get what the big deal about hydroxy would be if it's only an anti cyanide agent intravenously, though. It's not even coenzyme, and I've yet to hear of any other unique benefits.

Also, are you SURE dibencozide is more expensive? I was very much under the impression that it was NOT.

#16 niner

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:17 AM

if that was the case, i'd be in favor of using plain old cyano-b12 AS LONG as it was on a 1:1 ratio with hydroxycobalamin to offset the cyanide. granted, the cyanide intake from the cyanide molecule attached to cyano-b12 is probably so small that it's inconsequential, but the implications for a life-extensionist community to include it in our multi strikes me as a bit contradictory.

You are correct that the cyanide intake from cyano-b12 is so small as to be inconsequential. It would take thousands of times as much cyanide as could be derived from the doses we are talking about in order to reach lethality. Cyanide is not an accumulative toxin, like a heavy metal. If it doesn't kill you, you will be ok shortly thereafter. We shouldn't promote a "cyanocobalamin is poisonous because of the cyanide" meme, because it's not correct. We also shouldn't make any formulation decisions strictly on the basis of unwarranted cyanide concerns.

#17 pycnogenol

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 04:19 PM

Yes. [methylcobalamin, 1,000 mcg, 1/2 hour prior to bedtime, each night]

#18 Pike

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:34 PM

if that was the case, i'd be in favor of using plain old cyano-b12 AS LONG as it was on a 1:1 ratio with hydroxycobalamin to offset the cyanide. granted, the cyanide intake from the cyanide molecule attached to cyano-b12 is probably so small that it's inconsequential, but the implications for a life-extensionist community to include it in our multi strikes me as a bit contradictory.

You are correct that the cyanide intake from cyano-b12 is so small as to be inconsequential. It would take thousands of times as much cyanide as could be derived from the doses we are talking about in order to reach lethality. Cyanide is not an accumulative toxin, like a heavy metal. If it doesn't kill you, you will be ok shortly thereafter. We shouldn't promote a "cyanocobalamin is poisonous because of the cyanide" meme, because it's not correct. We also shouldn't make any formulation decisions strictly on the basis of unwarranted cyanide concerns.


i'm not particularly concerned with the cyanide content of the c-b12, but my concern about the implications is from the general assumption that some people, if not most people, who buy this supplement will probably not be making the educated assumptions that we do about each individual ingredient. aside from simple product presentation, the only things that will be separating our multivitamin from the competition will be our choices of which ingredients we choose to put in and the researched backed quantities in which they are put in. if someone on the borderline between our multi and another were to see that our multi doesn't offer any particular benefit above another by choice of ingredients, then i'd imagine that would be one forgone customer!

however, my opinion aside, you are absolutely correct. after making that post i did some quick googling. needless to say, the cyanide is inconsequential. It probably wouldn't affect anyone other than smokers who, IIRC.... have a decreased cyanide clearance????

#19 navyblue

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:31 AM

Wow, I must have a horrible intrinsic factor then. I currently take 5000mcg/day (cyanocobalamin). Any less that this amount and I do not notice any effects.




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