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Bacteria of the gums


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#1 Johann

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 01:49 PM


For over 15 years, I've been plagued by bleeding gums. I've got it pretty much under control with Q10 (I actually use Ubiquinol now). When I go to get my teeth cleaned, it stirs up the underlying bacteria and I get about a two day upper respiratory
infection. It is not in my imagination. I have documented it happening several times now.
Bacteria in the gums is a serious thing. The actor Peter Falk has never been the same since having some dental work a few years back. James Brown died after having some dental work.

In years past, in the winter, my gums would start to bleed a little even though I was taking Q10. This would usually occur around the same time I got sick. My Dr would prescribe some antibiotics for my sickness and a my gums would stop bleeding and would be great for a year.

But nowadays antibiotics are hard to get from the Dr. What antibiotic would be considered broadspectrum and would take care of this problem?

If this is not enough info, I will add more.

#2 rwac

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 02:49 PM

If you take a few mg of MK4, you will stop getting plaque on your teeth.

#3 tunt01

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 03:17 PM

drink a lot of green tea maybe?

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#4 Matt

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 03:27 PM

get x rays done, check out any past root canal treatments etc etc.... I had a vague list of systemic symptoms from an infected tooth that I had a root canal on... including bleeding/sore gum around the area of the tooth, temperature spikes, some joint pains, night sweats, tiredness.... took me 6 months to convince the dentist the tooth was infected and to take it out. Sure enough, IT WAS! (and it was bad). Anyway the short version of my story but... problems with gums and teeth can affect your body. Oh i also was having lots of digestion issues, and feeling sick during the time.

Just get a good dental check up. It's not normal to have bleeding gums if you're looking after your teeth properly.

#5 Johann

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:53 PM

If you take a few mg of MK4, you will stop getting plaque on your teeth.



Thanks for all the advice everyone.

Is it just MK4? What about MK2?

#6 rwac

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:01 PM

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

Is it just MK4? What about MK2?


Are you confusing K2 with MK2 ?
MK4 and MK7 are the two better researched forms of vitamin K2.

#7 Matt

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:15 PM

Johann, have you had your C-reactive protein levle checked??? I know that periodontal disease and other dental problems can raise this a bit.

#8 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:42 PM

High dose green or white tea (many cups throughout the day), xylitol gum, and high dose MK4 -- any of these alone or in combination should be helpful.

If you are interested in the gum route, trident does not have enough xylitol to provide any benefit. Look for Spry gum or something else with at least 500mg xylitol per piece if not more.

#9 Johann

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 08:48 PM

Rwac, maybe I was confusing the two. I am taking MK7. But didn't start until
just recently.

Matt,
I haven't had the c-reactive test but probably need to. I have chronic inflammation and have to switch back and forth between tylenol ( i know it is
not an anti-inflam) and ibuprofen. Last winter I did so much aspirin that I have
developed tinnitus. Not fun. Never goes away.

Funk,
High does MK4 and xylitol will probably be my best bets. Because I
can only handle so much green tea because of the caffeine. And I've heard
that decaffeinated is unhealthy in some way.

What can I expect to feel or sense if my c-reactive protein levels are high?

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#10 Matt

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 08:56 PM

I know the tinnitus, I know it well... it live with it all day everyday, is mild though :-) was either from a bad head cold or my drummer (or maybe my loud guitar playing ;) ).

C-Reactive protein is kind of non specific. Any inflammation will cause CRP to increase.... Metronidazole is a good antibiotic for treating dental problems, one potential side effect that is serious is neuropathy... but usually associated with higher doses or prolonged.

#11 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:11 PM

Funk,
High does MK4 and xylitol will probably be my best bets. Because I
can only handle so much green tea because of the caffeine. And I've heard
that decaffeinated is unhealthy in some way.


I would try white tea instead then, it is less stimulating than green tea and is probably superior to green tea for this purpose.

White Tea Beats Green Tea In Fighting Germs

ScienceDaily (May 28, 2004) — NEW ORLEANS – May 25, 2004 -- New studies conducted at Pace University have indicated that White Tea Extract (WTE) may have prophylactic applications in retarding growth of bacteria that cause Staphylococcus infections, Streptococcus infections, pneumonia and dental caries. Researchers present their findings today at the 104th General Meeting of the American Society for Microbiology.

"Past studies have shown that green tea stimulates the immune system to fight disease," says Milton Schiffenbauer, Ph.D., a microbiologist and professor in the Department of Biology at Pace University's Dyson College of Arts & Sciences and primary author of the research. "Our research shows White Tea Extract can actually destroy in vitro the organisms that cause disease. Study after study with tea extract proves that it has many healing properties. This is not an old wives tale, it's a fact."

White tea was more effective than green tea at inactivating bacterial viruses. Results obtained with the bacterial virus, a model system; suggest that WTE may have an anti-viral effect on human pathogenic viruses. The addition of White Tea Extract to various toothpastes enhanced the anti-microbial effect of these oral agents.

Studies have also indicated that WTE has an anti-fungal effect on Penicillium chrysogenum and Saccharomyces cerevisiae. In the presence of WTE, Penicillium spores and Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast cells were totally inactivated. It is suggested that WTE may have an anti-fungal effect on pathogenic fungi.

Several findings in the new study are of particular interest:

* The anti-viral and anti-bacterial effect of white tea (Stash and Templar brands) is greater than that of green tea.

* The anti-viral and anti-bacterial effect of several toothpastes including Aim, Aquafresh, Colgate, Crest and Orajel was enhanced by the addition of white tea extract.

* White tea extract exhibited an anti-fungal effect on both Penicillium chrysogenum and Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

* White tea extract may have application in the inactivation of pathogenic human microbes, i.e., bacteria, viruses, and fungi.



#12 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:33 PM

For over 15 years, I've been plagued by bleeding gums. I've got it pretty much under control with Q10 (I actually use Ubiquinol now). When I go to get my teeth cleaned, it stirs up the underlying bacteria and I get about a two day upper respiratory
infection. It is not in my imagination. I have documented it happening several times now.
Bacteria in the gums is a serious thing. The actor Peter Falk has never been the same since having some dental work a few years back. James Brown died after having some dental work.

In years past, in the winter, my gums would start to bleed a little even though I was taking Q10. This would usually occur around the same time I got sick. My Dr would prescribe some antibiotics for my sickness and a my gums would stop bleeding and would be great for a year.

But nowadays antibiotics are hard to get from the Dr. What antibiotic would be considered broadspectrum and would take care of this problem?

If this is not enough info, I will add more.


How often do you have dental exams? Have you ever gone to a periodontitist? Bleeding of the gums is not normal. How often do you use floss? Do you know how to floss properly? Have you conducted your oral hygiene using a plaque disclosing solution to clearly show that you are achieving complete plaque removal? Have you ever rinsed with chlorhexadine (peridex) prior to having your professional cleaning done to lower the bacteria count? Do you have hard to reach areas such as deep pockets, involvement of the furcal areas between the roots of the teeth or bridges that you don't effectively clean underneath? There are many adjunctive cleaning implements available to help with plaque control.

Topical antibiotics are occasionally part of the solution to periodontal (gum and bone) disease but systemic antibiotics are basically never indicated. Biofilms are highly resistant to systemic antibiotics. If your dentist and hygenist are not up to date on managing periodontal disease you would probably do well to seek out another office or a periodontal specialist who can get help you get this under control.

#13 JackChristopher

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 10:32 PM

If you take a few mg of MK4, you will stop getting plaque on your teeth.



Lots of Calcium, Vitamin A, Vitamin D and K2 MK4 (Menaquinone). The fat-soluble vitamins need to balance each other. This combo is killing even hard plaque on teeth. My gums stopped bleeding months ago too. Solely through diet.

Johann, what diet are you on?

Edited by JackChristopher, 06 November 2009 - 10:35 PM.


#14 Johann

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 08:10 PM

JackChristopher,
I try to limit the white flour but from time to time friends and family have pasta, pizza, etc. I know I need to eat more leafy greens and cut out some things. I'm way better than I was ten years ago but not nearly as
regimented as I should be. Do you have any dietary advice you can give me?

Lunar,
I just started this last year getting regular teeth cleanings. The dentist indicated that there was significant
tartar buildup and all along I thought that I had been practicing good flossing. I actually had to go back in 3 months, not the usual 6 months. And at one point had to have deep root cleaning which involved anesthetic.

I floss once a day. Would floss twice but the gums get a bit sore when I do that. I will look into the chlorhexadine. Can I use this regularly?

#15 Lufega

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 01:09 AM

Rinse your mouth with propolis extract. It has strong antibacterial properties. It's used by peoples who have receding gums. I've done this myself. You can search the net for it. Second, there's perigum. I used it regularly for my gums as well for bleeding. This last product, Prunella Vulgaris, I'm very excited about because it inhibits herpes replication. All three things you can rub on your gums daily and have antibacterial properties.

Macleya cordata and Prunella vulgaris in oral hygiene products - their efficacy in the control of gingivitis.

Adámková H, Vicar J, Palasová J, Ulrichová J, Simánek V.

1st Clinic of Dentistry, Faculty of Medicine, Palacký University, Czech Republic.

A double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial was performed to investigate the effectiveness of a herbal-based dentifrice in the control of gingivitis. Forty volunteers completed the 84-day study. All subjects were balanced for parameters measured - plaque index (PI), community periodontal index of treatment needs (CPITN) and papillary bleeding index (PBI). The dentifrice was effective in reducing symptoms of gingivitis as evaluated by the CPITN and PBI indexes.


Prunella vulgaris extract and rosmarinic acid suppress lipopolysaccharide-induced alteration in human gingival fibroblasts.

Zdarilová A, Svobodová A, Simánek V, Ulrichová J.

Department of Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry, Hnevotínská 3, Palacký University, 775 15 Olomouc, Czech Republic.

Periodontitis is a chronic disease associated with inflammation of the tooth-supporting tissues. The inflammation is initiated by a group of gram-negative anaerobic bacteria. These express a number of irritating factors including a lipopolysaccharide (LPS), which plays a key role in periodontal disease development. Plant extracts with anti-inflammatory and anti-microbial properties have been shown to inhibit bacterial plaque formation and thus prevent chronic gingivitis. In this study we tested effects of Prunella vulgaris L. extract (PVE; 5, 10, 25microg/ml) and its component rosmarinic acid (RA; 1microg/ml) on LPS-induced oxidative damage and inflammation in human gingival fibroblasts. PVE and RA reduced reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, intracellular glutathione (GSH) depletion as well as lipid peroxidation in LPS-treated cells. Treatment with PVE and RA also inhibited LPS-induced up-regulation of interleukin 1beta (IL-1beta), interleukin 6 (IL-6), tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) and suppressed expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS). The results indicate that PVE and RA are able to suppress LPS-induced biological changes in gingival fibroblasts. The effects of PVE and RA are presumably linked to their anti-inflammatory activities and thus use of PVE and RA may be relevant in modulating the inflammation process, including periodontal disease.


Good luck!

Edited by Lufega, 09 November 2009 - 01:11 AM.


#16 JackChristopher

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 02:09 AM

Johann, have you seen this?

#17 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 08:09 AM

Lunar,
I just started this last year getting regular teeth cleanings. The dentist indicated that there was significant
tartar buildup and all along I thought that I had been practicing good flossing. I actually had to go back in 3 months, not the usual 6 months. And at one point had to have deep root cleaning which involved anesthetic.

I floss once a day. Would floss twice but the gums get a bit sore when I do that. I will look into the chlorhexadine. Can I use this regularly?


There is a difference between merely "using floss" and "flossing adequately". This video isn't the greatest but it is pretty accurate in describing how to floss adequately:


In addition you should be brushing 2-3 times daily for 2 minutes using modified bass technique with a manual toothbrush or using an electric toothbrush. Plaque control is entirely your responsibility. Get some plaque disclosing solution and verify that your oral hygiene technique completely removes all the plaque. The liquid plaque disclosers work slightly better than the kind you chew.

However removing calculus/tarter is the job of the dental professional. Many people do require a significantly condensed recall schedule for periodontal maintenance/prophylaxis. It is beneficial in many ways to get your perio disease under control and fortunately, for more than 99% it's quite possible.

#18 Johann

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 01:56 PM

Johann, have you seen this?


It was because of Weston Price that I became a raw milk (goat milk) drinker four years ago.
I think I need to follow the rest of the groups advice and cut out those grains.

#19 Johann

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 01:58 PM

Lunar,
I just started this last year getting regular teeth cleanings. The dentist indicated that there was significant
tartar buildup and all along I thought that I had been practicing good flossing. I actually had to go back in 3 months, not the usual 6 months. And at one point had to have deep root cleaning which involved anesthetic.

I floss once a day. Would floss twice but the gums get a bit sore when I do that. I will look into the chlorhexadine. Can I use this regularly?


There is a difference between merely "using floss" and "flossing adequately". This video isn't the greatest but it is pretty accurate in describing how to floss adequately:


In addition you should be brushing 2-3 times daily for 2 minutes using modified bass technique with a manual toothbrush or using an electric toothbrush. Plaque control is entirely your responsibility. Get some plaque disclosing solution and verify that your oral hygiene technique completely removes all the plaque. The liquid plaque disclosers work slightly better than the kind you chew.

However removing calculus/tarter is the job of the dental professional. Many people do require a significantly condensed recall schedule for periodontal maintenance/prophylaxis. It is beneficial in many ways to get your perio disease under control and fortunately, for more than 99% it's quite possible.


I will be getting an electric toothbrush today. I had already thought of that.
And is there a liquid brand of the plaque disclosers I need to look for? They should have it at Wal-Mart.

#20 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 03:19 AM

I will be getting an electric toothbrush today. I had already thought of that.
And is there a liquid brand of the plaque disclosers I need to look for? They should have it at Wal-Mart.


I'd be very careful using an electric toothbrush while you have inflammed gums. It's entirely possible to injure them and cause irreversible gingival recession. Until your gums are in a bit better shape I think you'd be better off with an ultrasoft manual brush like the Nimbus. If you do go ahead with the electric make sure it has soft bristles (not medium or firm) and be very careful around the gums. This is a bit tricky because you also want to make sure you remove the subgingival plaque from the first millimeter of the periodontal pocket under the gums too.

#21 shp5

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 06:16 PM

I'm in for a bacteriogram next week. I just realised AFTER YEARS that my recurring strep throats probably from a root-canalled tooth that always seems to have slight inflammation (as Matt experienced). I'm all for the most minimal intervention in medicine, but  this particular little piece of s*** will probably have to go.



#22 Heisok

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 03:05 AM

shp5, I am almost ready myself to get one pulled.

 

Had my first root canal about 1 year ago. Was sensitive with swelling for a couple months. swelling went down, but sensitivity never quite went away. Finally after another 4 to 5 months, I went back, and there were little dark spots at the tips of the roots on the xray. Dentist said from biting down on tooth, so he adjusted the bite by grinding the crown. Helped, but still some sensitivity. I do not like the idea of losing my second from back molar, but will likely see a general dentist who uses Ozone, and whatever other hygenic processes during treatment. He is also qualified in dental surgery, so should be great if part of the tooth is not easily extraxcted.

 

Please let us know how yours goes.



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#23 shp5

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 07:18 AM

AFAIK root canals should be ideally be done with a microscope (you'll pay extra) and should take a few sessions, depending on the number of canals. IMHO symptoms should be gone a few weeks after treatment. I would get a second opinion on it.






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