Butter has 265kU/g of AGEs. Is that because of the pasteurization? Does unpasteurized butter have that many?
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Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans
Posted 08 November 2009 - 09:09 AM
Posted 08 November 2009 - 09:36 AM
Posted 08 November 2009 - 07:43 PM
The way I understand AGEs in dairy is that it's mostly from the pasteurization.
Posted 08 November 2009 - 08:41 PM
Posted 09 November 2009 - 07:44 AM
Edited by JLL, 09 November 2009 - 07:45 AM.
Posted 09 November 2009 - 08:09 PM
Posted 09 November 2009 - 09:44 PM
Yes, water interferes with the glycation process.
EDIT: I assume ghee would be lower in AGEs/ALEs than butter because there are no milk solids left, only fat, and it's low in PUFAs.
Posted 09 November 2009 - 10:20 PM
Posted 10 November 2009 - 02:53 AM
Water interferes with glycation indirectly in that if there is enough water present, the temperature of the mixture will be limited to the boiling point of water. Glycation occurs readily in aqueous solution, so water is not having a chemical effect that prevents glycation.Yes, water interferes with the glycation process.
Posted 10 November 2009 - 05:28 AM
I don't know without checking my notes... but "265kU/g" is on the high side, right? I don't think it can be the pasteurisation (20 secs at 95°C?!)
Edited by Sillewater, 10 November 2009 - 05:32 AM.
Posted 10 November 2009 - 08:04 AM
There are two main types of pasteurization used today: High Temperature/Short Time (HTST) and Extended Shelf Life (ESL) treatment. Ultra-high temperature (UHT or ultra-heat treated) is also used for milk treatment. In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. UHT processing holds the milk at a temperature of 138 °C (280 °F) for a fraction of a second.
Posted 10 November 2009 - 08:11 AM
Posted 10 November 2009 - 03:30 PM
From Wikipedia:
There are two main types of pasteurization used today: High Temperature/Short Time (HTST) and Extended Shelf Life (ESL) treatment. Ultra-high temperature (UHT or ultra-heat treated) is also used for milk treatment. In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. UHT processing holds the milk at a temperature of 138 °C (280 °F) for a fraction of a second.
I also doubt the AGEs are from pasteurization. Maybe they're from the aging & churning process? There's probably some oxidation going on then.
As for ghee, this is just my own speculation, but given that unlike butter, ghee does not contain any milk solids and thus no protein and carbs -- so I don't see how it could contain AGEs. Also, ghee is very high in saturated fatty acids and very low in polyunsaturated fatty acids, so I don't see how it could contain ALEs either. Maybe niner can help me out here?
Posted 10 November 2009 - 04:07 PM
Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:32 AM
The cream is then fed into large stainless steel vats and heated to 180°F (82°C) for about 30 minutes in the pasteurization process to remove any lingering bacteria. The pasteurized cream is then left to cool.
J Lipid Res. 2002 Mar;43(3):523-9.
UV analysis of Amadori-glycated phosphatidylethanolamine in foods and biological samples.
Oak JH, Nakagawa K, Miyazawa T.
Biodynamic Chemistry Lab, Graduate School of Life Science and Agriculture, Tohoku University, Tsutsumidori-Amemiyamachi 1-1, Sendai 981-8555, Japan.
Maillard reactions are among the most important of the chemical and oxidative changes occurring in food and biological samples that contribute to food deterioration and to the pathophysiology of human disease. Although the association of lipid glycation with this process has recently been shown, the number of lipid glycation products in food and biological materials has not been clear. In this study, we synthesized the Amadori products derived from the glycation of phosphatidylethanolamine (PE), i.e., Amadori-PEs. Dioleoyl PE was incubated with glucose and lactose for 15 days, and the resultant Amadori-PEs were purified and isolated using solid phase extraction followed by HPLC. With this procedure, essentially pure (>98% purity) Amadori-PEs glycated with glucose (Glc-PE) and with lactose (Lac-PE) were obtained and used as standards in the subsequent studies. To determine the presence of Amadori-PEs in food and biological samples, the carbonyl group of Amadori-PEs was ultraviolet (UV)-labeled with 3-methyl-2-benzothiazolinone hydrazone, and the labeled Amadori-PEs were analyzed with normal phase HPLC-UV (318 nm). The detection limit was 4.5 ng (5 pmol) for Glc-PE and 5.3 ng (5 pmol) for Lac-PE. Among the several food samples examined, infant formula and chocolate contained a high amount of both Glc-PE and Lac-PE over wide concentration ranges, such as 1.5-112 microg/g. Testing biological materials showed Amadori-PE (Glc-PE) was detectable in rat plasma.
PMID: 11893788 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted 11 November 2009 - 09:47 AM
Olive oil? I'd be surprised if it contained anything else than ALEs. I don't think there's enough (or any) contamination by sugars. Are you confusing those two?
Posted 11 November 2009 - 10:39 AM
Posted 11 November 2009 - 04:21 PM
Olive oil? I'd be surprised if it contained anything else than ALEs. I don't think there's enough (or any) contamination by sugars. Are you confusing those two?
Posted 11 November 2009 - 04:32 PM
Edited by kismet, 11 November 2009 - 04:35 PM.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 05:46 PM
Not sure but if you look at the data for raw olive and avocado, it's relatively high. Not anywhere near as high for cooked meat but high for plant matter.
Link
Edited by TheFountain, 11 November 2009 - 05:48 PM.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:10 PM
Except that vegetarians have higher AGE levels than omnivores, as seen in Plasma levels of advanced glycation end products in healthy, long-term vegetarians and subjects on a western mixed diet (PMID 11876491):Not sure but if you look at the data for raw olive and avocado, it's relatively high. Not anywhere near as high for cooked meat but high for plant matter.
Link
It seems pretty clear that cooked meat is WAY higher in AGEs than cooked plant matter. Hence probably why raw food vegetarians age more gracefully than meat eaters.
The thought is that the carnosine content of meat more than makes up for the higher AGE content of an omnivorous diet.Enhanced plasma AGE levels in vegetarians in comparison to omnivores are herein presented for the first time. Mechanisms of AGE elevation and potential pathophysiological relevance of this finding are to be elucidated in prospective studies.
Edited by stephen_b, 11 November 2009 - 06:12 PM.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:28 PM
Except that vegetarians have higher AGE levels than omnivores, as seen in Plasma levels of advanced glycation end products in healthy, long-term vegetarians and subjects on a western mixed diet (PMID 11876491):Not sure but if you look at the data for raw olive and avocado, it's relatively high. Not anywhere near as high for cooked meat but high for plant matter.
Link
It seems pretty clear that cooked meat is WAY higher in AGEs than cooked plant matter. Hence probably why raw food vegetarians age more gracefully than meat eaters.The thought is that the carnosine content of meat more than makes up for the higher AGE content of an omnivorous diet.Enhanced plasma AGE levels in vegetarians in comparison to omnivores are herein presented for the first time. Mechanisms of AGE elevation and potential pathophysiological relevance of this finding are to be elucidated in prospective studies.
I see that Michael supplements beta-alanine.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:03 PM
Sounds like you might be dismissing the results of the studies because you don't like the conclusions. It seems to me that generally speaking raising carnosine is more important than lowering dietary AGEs.No one is going to tell me that vegetables are responsible for the plasma AGEs levels in those 'vegetarian' subjects. They obviously weren't all that healthy or in tune with what they ate.
Non-enzymic protein glycosylation (glycation) plays important roles in ageing and in diabetes and its secondary complications. Dietary constituents may play important roles in accelerating or suppressing glycation. It is suggested that carnivorous diets contain a potential anti-glycating agent, carnosine (beta-alanyl-histidine), whilst vegetarians may lack intake of the dipeptide. The possible beneficial effects of carnosine and related structures on protein carbonyl stress, AGE formation, secondary diabetic complications and age-related neuropathology are discussed.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:58 PM
No, it sounds like you are dismissing what I am saying because you don't want to admit the studies may have been flawed and simply did not include 'healthy vegetarians' as it claimed but people who ate junk food and high fructose foods who called themselves vegetarians. But alas, I guarantee you would be very quick to point out any flaws you perceive in studies that show vegetarian diets are conducive to better health and longevity. Because you can't be against vegetarianism without being a complete hypocrite. Yea I already saw carnosine studies and taurine studies etc and I can guarantee another thing. The subjects in the crap study you pointed to weren't supplementing with either.Sounds like you might be dismissing the results of the studies because you don't like the conclusions.No one is going to tell me that vegetables are responsible for the plasma AGEs levels in those 'vegetarian' subjects. They obviously weren't all that healthy or in tune with what they ate.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 08:05 PM
Edited by TheFountain, 11 November 2009 - 08:06 PM.
Posted 11 November 2009 - 08:50 PM
You haven't explained why the vegetarian diet referred to in the study was crap. My conclusion is that most vegetarians would probably be better off with some supplement providing carnosine, not that omnivorous diets are always better than vegetarian ones.The main point here is that the crap study above did not use those who survive primarily on 'plant based diets' but those who more than likely ate processed foods, dairy and lots of fructose containing foods. This is definitely not a fair test of vegetarianism. I hereby throw that study in the trash where it belongs, along side the food those subjects were eating. I stress once again that a 'primarily plant based diet' means just that. Vegetables! Not no freaking grain breads, dairy or other sub-optimal crap that raises insulin and all that!
Posted 12 November 2009 - 12:11 AM
Except that vegetarians have higher AGE levels than omnivores, as seen in Plasma levels of advanced glycation end products in healthy, long-term vegetarians and subjects on a western mixed diet (PMID 11876491):Not sure but if you look at the data for raw olive and avocado, it's relatively high. Not anywhere near as high for cooked meat but high for plant matter.
Link
It seems pretty clear that cooked meat is WAY higher in AGEs than cooked plant matter. Hence probably why raw food vegetarians age more gracefully than meat eaters.The thought is that the carnosine content of meat more than makes up for the higher AGE content of an omnivorous diet.Enhanced plasma AGE levels in vegetarians in comparison to omnivores are herein presented for the first time. Mechanisms of AGE elevation and potential pathophysiological relevance of this finding are to be elucidated in prospective studies.
I see that Michael supplements beta-alanine.
Edited by HaloTeK, 12 November 2009 - 12:12 AM.
Posted 12 November 2009 - 04:05 AM
You haven't explained why the vegetarian diet referred to in the study was crap. My conclusion is that most vegetarians would probably be better off with some supplement providing carnosine, not that omnivorous diets are always better than vegetarian ones.The main point here is that the crap study above did not use those who survive primarily on 'plant based diets' but those who more than likely ate processed foods, dairy and lots of fructose containing foods. This is definitely not a fair test of vegetarianism. I hereby throw that study in the trash where it belongs, along side the food those subjects were eating. I stress once again that a 'primarily plant based diet' means just that. Vegetables! Not no freaking grain breads, dairy or other sub-optimal crap that raises insulin and all that!
Posted 12 November 2009 - 04:32 AM
Please be nice.My conclusion would be that you are arrogant
OK, you can come up with a vegetarian diet that is healthy, but who actually eats that way? I think that most vegetarians don't. Those vegetarians with crappy diets would be well served to learn how to construct a healthier diet, bearing in mind that diets need to be practical. I think that most people here are tired of angry posts attempting to promote a particular diet, particularly when you define it in a way that almost no one else does. Maybe you should call it a Meatless Raw Diet instead.and do not understand the full spectrum/implications of choosing a diet. It isn't just about bulking up today. It is about longevity too. Meat diets have been shown to raise IGF-1 and DHT levels (at least correlative for the latter) and cooked meat definitely contains higher AGEs than cooked vegetables. And yes I DID explain it. The control subjects were more than likely eating some processed grains, lots of fructose and maybe even dairy. This to me is not healthy regardless of whether or not you eat meat. I am talking about a better study needing to be performed using control subjects that do not consume these things, who survive primarily on vegetables, berries, nuts, seeds (all of which should preferably be raw!) maybe some eggs for protein and overall adequate macronutrient accountability. If you can show me a study using this definition of vegetarianism that still shows these results so be it. But I doubt you would see a study using this definition lead to these results. I highly doubt it.
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