70 replies to this topic

[medievil]

Neurotoxicology. 2008 Jan;29(1):179-83. Epub 2007 Sep 22.
Memantine prevents MDMA-induced neurotoxicity.

Chipana C, Camarasa J, Pubill D, Escubedo E.
Unitat de Farmacologia i Farmacognòsia, Facultat de Farmàcia, Nucli Universitari de Pedralbes, Universitat de Barcelona, Av. Joan XXIII s/n, 08028 Barcelona, Spain.

MDMA (ecstasy) is an illicit drug causing long-term neurotoxicity. Previous studies demonstrated the interaction of MDMA with alpha-7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (nAChR) in mouse brain membranes and the involvement of alpha-7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChR) in dopaminergic neurotoxicity induced by MDMA in mice. The aim of the present study was to investigate the utility of memantine (MEM), an alpha-7 nAChR antagonist used for treatment of Alzheimer's disease patients, to prevent neurotoxicity induced by MDMA in rats and the oxidative effect of this amphetamine derivative in mice striatal synaptosomes. In isolated mouse striatal synaptosomes (an in vitro model of MDMA neurotoxicity of dopaminergic origin), MDMA (50muM)-induced reactive oxygen species (ROS) production that was fully inhibited by MEM (0.3muM). This effect of MEM was fully prevented by PNU 282987 (0.5muM), a specific agonist of alpha-7 nAChR. The preventive effect of MEM on this oxidative effect can be attributed to a direct antagonism between MDMA (acting probably as agonist) and MEM (acting as antagonist) at the alpha-7 nAChR. In Dark Agouti rats (an in vivo model of MDMA neurotoxicity of serotonergic origin), a single dose of MDMA (18mg/kg) induced persistent hyperthermia, which was not affected by MEM pre-treatment. [(3)H]Paroxetine binding (a marker of serotonergic injury) was measured in the hippocampus of animals killed at 24h and 7 days after treatment. MDMA induced a significant reduction in [(3)H]paroxetine binding sites at both times of sacrifice that was fully prevented by pre-treatment with MEM. Since previous studies demonstrate that increased glutamate activity is not involved in the neurotoxic action of MDMA, it can be concluded that the effectiveness of MEM against MDMA-induced neurotoxicity would be the result of blockade of alpha-7 nAChR, although an indirect mechanism based on the interplay among the various neurotransmission systems leading to an increase in basal acetylcholine release should also be taken into account.

PMID: 17980434 [PubMed - in process

Memantine protects against amphetamine derivatives-induced neurotoxic damage in rodents.
Neuropharmacology. 2008 Jun;54(:1254-63.
We hypothesize that 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) and methamphetamine (METH) interact with alpha-7 nicotinic receptors (nAChR). Here we examine whether memantine (MEM), an antagonist of NMDAR and alpha-7 nAChR, prevents MDMA and METH neurotoxicity. MEM prevented both serotonergic injury induced by MDMA in rat and dopaminergic lesion by METH in mice. MEM has a better protective effect in front of MDMA- and METH-induced neurotoxicity than methyllycaconitine (MLA), a specific alpha-7 nAChR antagonist. The double antagonism that MEM exerts on NMDA receptor and on alpha-7 nAChR, probably contributes to its effectiveness. MEM inhibited reactive oxygen species production induced by MDMA or METH in synaptosomes. This effect was not modified by NMDA receptor antagonists, but reversed by alpha-7 nAChR agonist (PNU 282987), demonstrating a preventive effect of MEM as a result of it blocking alpha-7 nAChR. In synaptosomes, MDMA decreased 5-HT uptake by about 40%. This decrease was prevented by MEM and by MLA but enhanced by PNU 282987. A similar pattern was observed when we measured the dopamine transport inhibited by METH. The inhibition of both transporters by amphetamine derivatives seems to be regulated by the calcium incorporation after activation of alpha-7 nAChR. MDMA competitively displaces [(3)H]MLA from rat brain membranes. MEM and METH also displace [(3)H]MLA with non-competitive displacement profiles that fit a two-site model. We conclude that MEM prevents MDMA and METH effects in rodents. MEM may offer neuroprotection against neurotoxicity induced by MDMA and METH by preventing the deleterious effects of these amphetamine derivatives on their respective transporters. [

[Jojo]

If you can possibly practice physically, I would recommend ashtanga yoga 3-5 times/week
Alcohol (in lil bigger doses) for me causes brain fog and social anxiety for a week or two. Totally poison for my nervous system these days..

just registered to tell what I've found healing. Take care!

Edited by Jojo, 13 December 2009 - 07:22 PM.

[The Likud Is Behind It]

The big four that helped me to heal the brain after alcohol:

CDPCholine
4g Inositol attack dose for a couple weeks
Sulbutiamine
Picamilon

All are in the family of b vitamins. Picamilon is recommended for alcohol induced brain damage. It gives you niacin and GABA that are only broken down in the brain. Sulbutiamine is good because alcohol depletes thiamine. Inositol and Choline are just good for you in general.

Edited by bmud, 14 December 2009 - 03:34 PM.

[bionixx]

The best thing you can do is to stop using all addictive substances and do what I am doing. You'll find it in the anti aging section. HGH is the best thing to restore your limbic system and trazodone will block your addictive personality & its a piperine a euphoric substance. This is perfect, you sound like me in high school.

[bben]

BUMP. As I have this same problem im gonna bump this thread to see if anyone else has any more info. Especially people that have abused MDMA and found something that works decently.

[dronez]

thanks for bumping bben.

mdma, from what I have read affects serotonin axons in the raphe nuclei - which is part of the brain stem.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Raphe_nuclei

any idea on how to regenerate this part of the brain? would bdnf accelerate growth here?

[Owen Mac]

thanks for bumping bben.

mdma, from what I have read affects serotonin axons in the raphe nuclei - which is part of the brain stem.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Raphe_nuclei

any idea on how to regenerate this part of the brain? would bdnf accelerate growth here?

I think what you need to take to address your specific needs is idebenone. It is known to increase the NGF (Nerve Growth Factor) in the brain. It increases the production of the neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, adrenalin, and noradrenanlin. It's also used to treat those suffering liver damage from toxic chemicals or hepatitis.

Might be worth a look

[dronez]

^ thanks for the rec. I'll check it out.

How plausible is it that brain cells/neurons and/or axons regrow?

if damaged, how likely is it that they can heal?

I've read things like 'dead axons never grow' or 'axons never grow or heal', but I've also heard the converse, that the brain can regenerate parts of itself. Does anyone have any positive studies or info on that affirms that axons/cells regrow? I really hope there is hope for myself and others. Not really looking for studies that disaffirm.

[medicineman]

^ thanks for the rec. I'll check it out.

How plausible is it that brain cells/neurons and/or axons regrow?

if damaged, how likely is it that they can heal?

I've read things like 'dead axons never grow' or 'axons never grow or heal', but I've also heard the converse, that the brain can regenerate parts of itself. Does anyone have any positive studies or info on that affirms that axons/cells regrow? I really hope there is hope for myself and others. Not really looking for studies that disaffirm.

in vitro, many agents cause axonal regen or neuron proliferation etc..... (neurogenesis), but in vivo, it is more difficult to ascertain which substances would, but exercise and DHA (in omega 3) I think have evidence of in vivo regen.. i myself provided some literature, and there is plenty online if you google it, pubmed it, or whatever.....
the idea that axon and neuron growth is finished in adulthood has been debunked.....

[jama]

do you think axons can repair themselves?

I have always had some sort of anxiety - though didn't know how to label it until I was about 17 (im 25 now). I was officially diagnosed with OCD - I used to have to shower 7 times a day. now my OCD is minor but I sometimes get extremely nervous talking to people. I can't really think of anything else it could be other than genetics/drug use.

I hit my head skateboarding when I was 14 - but I didnt go unconscious or anything.
[/quote]

"Your situation is more common than you think.... No medication that you get from a doctor is going to restore the damage done immediately.. Remember, ecstasy does not damage your ability to reason nor does it hinder your ability to perform complex tasks. The fear of MDMA abuse is mainly damage to memory consolidation and short term memory"

From personal experience and extensive research into the long-term adverse effects of mdma use, I would be reluctant to attribute your perceived cognitive difficulties to your mdma use. Given your relative infrequency of use as well as your patterns of use, I am actually quite surprised that you experience cognitive difficulty in any capacity whatsoever. Reports have been equivocal yet cautious with several suggesting no cognitive impairments after long-term abstention for light/moderate users (Reneman 2006, Golding 2007--off the top of my head).

But if you are convinced of brain injury--as I was when in similar circumstances (5-10 uses over 18 months, one time twice in one week)--I would take established regenerative measures. I cited the above quote from medicineman for 2 reasons: (1) damage done is not necessarily permanent--every study done on mdma effects notes this, while most of the pessimism regarding recovery concerns heavy users (50+ tablets) (2) subacute effects seem to selectively disrupt the encoding/consolidation stage of verbal memory but not visual/spatial memory, prospective memory or other aspects aspects of cognition in light users (Schilt, 2007).

Given this information, the prior suggestion of learning an instrument is extremely useful. Studies have demonstrated significantly improved verbal memory/learning in children and adults with musical training (C Ho, 2003). In my own experience, musical training (trumpet) accompanied by verbal exercises (crosswords, word puzzles, logical puzzles) for 1 year dramatically improved my concentration, attention, and (working, short-term, and verbal) memory. I think it may be helpful to view your current circumstance more as a time for cognitive rebuilding rather than being plagued by worry and doubt.

Also, meditation is a serious suggestion. Studies (particularly David Richardson, UW-Madison) have unambiguously shown increased cortical thickness in regions responsible for attention and concentration as well as a general slowing or even cessation of cognitive decline. I have OCD and the practice of mindfulness was particularly helpful in mood improvement and silencing the obsessions.

In all, your concerns about your memory are refreshingly proactive and I expect they will lead you into lifestyle changes that will improve your general well-being (including but not limited to cognitive functioning, efficiency and capacity). As a peripheral note, axonal regeneration can occur in the presence of stimulation and psychological stability (especially in your case, as you are young, educated, and merely (possibly) sustained light injury). Good luck, keep at it, and stay positive. You will notice improvements providing consistent practice and exercise. In my own case, my memory and other cognitive functions have peaked as never before.

[LabRat84]

I'm glad this thread was bumped.

I've used cannabis about a dozen times, twice having especially profound experiences. During one (in college) I experienced absolute short-term memory loss. Ever since, my short-term memory hasn't been the same. The blunt may have been laced with PCP "angel dust" which is known to contribute, but even if not, I took some huge hits from very pure stuff.

I've also had anxiety and depression problems that pre-dated that experience. Regular alcohol use certainly didn't help. I developed concentration and verbal fluency problems, which became worse the day after drinking.
I've been seeing a psychiatrist since August and a went to see a neurologist last month. My psychiatric meds have reduced my desire to drink, which is good. I drink a lot less now. My neurologist ordered thyroid tests and recommended B12, either sublingual or shots. I started sublingual methyl-B12 together with n-methylfolate and my memory started improving. After a few days on methyl-B12 my plasma levels were normal (I didn't have a pre-treatment baseline, but they were probably low). I'm taking 300mg pramiracetam every day with alphaGPC, and I just got aniracetam for its ampakine action. I also take 8 mg of galantamine/day, divided into 4mg doses.

My stack:

AM (empty stomach)
Prescribed meds
Adderall XR 30 (I know you're trying to stay away from amphetamines, and I'd like to find a better alternative at some point)
Alprazolam 1.0 mg ER + .25mg IR (same goes for benzos - would rather not be on these long-term, but they're very helpful)
Lexapro (Escitalopram) 10 mg (I have some Stablon and a full supply coming in, but I'm not sure I want to tinker with serotonin quite yet)
Other meds
Memantine 10mg (to reduce amphetamine tolerance and improve cognitive performance)
Deprenyl 5mg every other day (anti-aging and mood booster)
Supplements
SAM-e 400mg
ALCAR 500mg (just got arginate, might switch - arginine is good by itself, so I might as well)
Lion's mane (no bad effects so far; want to see if this actually does anything)
Zinc Picolinate 100mg (Prescribed by Pfeiffer Treatment Center- I have serious copper/zinc balance issues and need 150mg zinc/day to maintain good levels)
1 capsule ZMA (for the magnesium: ~112.5mg Magnesium Aspartate, only 10 mg zinc)
B12 sublingual 5mg (might switch down to 1-2mg)
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 1g
Guggulsterones 37.5mg
n-methylfolate 500mg EOD (my folate levels tested very high)

With first meal of the day
P-5-P 50 mg (Rx by PTC)
Biotin 1000mcg (Rx by PTC)
Manganese 10mg (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin E 400 IU (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin D 4000 IU (Rx by PTC; I was taking 1000 IU but I tested very low for vitamin D - Spring is here so I may not need as much soon)
Vitamin A 10,000 IU EOD
Idebenone (CoQ10) 180mg
Pramiracetam 300 mg
Galantamine 4 mg
AlphaGPC 300 mg
Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix 500 mg (100 mg PS + mostly PC)



Afternoon (5PM)
Adderall 15mg IR
Xanax .5 mg ER
Galantamine 4 mg
AlphaGPC 300mg
Guggulsterones 37.5mg
Zinc Picolinate 50mg

Evening
Alprazolam .5mg IR
Magnesium Glycinate 400mg (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin C 500mg extended release
500mg Alpha Lipoic Acid Timed Release (waiting for R-Lipoic Acid)
L-Tyrosine 500mg (to replenish NTs)
Melatonin (working on appropriate sublingual dose).


Basic tips/supplements to help your memory:

-Cut down on alcohol. Seriously.
-No more neurotoxic amphetamines (Adderall helped me with all my cognitive difficulties except short-term memory deficits, which is actually how I became interested in nootropics to begin with)
-Use sublingual methyl-B12, NAC, and n-methylfolate. Consider alpha- or r-lipoic acid and ALCAR.
-Take Zinc and Magnesium (these also prevent hangovers!)
-Get exercise regularly
-Play dual n-back
-Get enough sleep, and get a sleep study if you can to check for sleep apnea, especially if you snore.

Edited by LabRat84, 13 April 2010 - 05:59 AM.

[Thorsten3]

I'm glad this thread was bumped.

I've used cannabis about a dozen times, twice having especially profound experiences. During one (in college) I experienced absolute short-term memory loss. Ever since, my short-term memory hasn't been the same. The blunt may have been laced with PCP "angel dust" which is known to contribute, but even if not, I took some huge hits from very pure stuff.

I've also had anxiety and depression problems that pre-dated that experience. Regular alcohol use certainly didn't help. I developed concentration and verbal fluency problems, which became worse the day after drinking.
I've been seeing a psychiatrist since August and a went to see a neurologist last month. My psychiatric meds have reduced my desire to drink, which is good. I drink a lot less now. My neurologist ordered thyroid tests and recommended B12, either sublingual or shots. I started sublingual methyl-B12 together with n-methylfolate and my memory started improving. After a few days on methyl-B12 my plasma levels were normal (I didn't have a pre-treatment baseline, but they were probably low). I'm taking 300mg pramiracetam every day with alphaGPC, and I just got aniracetam for its ampakine action. I also take 8 mg of galantamine/day, divided into 4mg doses.

My stack:

AM (empty stomach)
Prescribed meds
Adderall XR 30 (I know you're trying to stay away from amphetamines, and I'd like to find a better alternative at some point)
Alprazolam 1.0 mg ER + .25mg IR (same goes for benzos - would rather not be on these long-term, but they're very helpful)
Lexapro (Escitalopram) 10 mg (I have some Stablon and a full supply coming in, but I'm not sure I want to tinker with serotonin quite yet)
Other meds
Memantine 10mg (to reduce amphetamine tolerance and improve cognitive performance)
Deprenyl 5mg every other day (anti-aging and mood booster)
Supplements
SAM-e 400mg
ALCAR 500mg (just got arginate, might switch - arginine is good by itself, so I might as well)
Lion's mane (no bad effects so far; want to see if this actually does anything)
Zinc Picolinate 100mg (Prescribed by Pfeiffer Treatment Center- I have serious copper/zinc balance issues and need 150mg zinc/day to maintain good levels)
1 capsule ZMA (for the magnesium: ~112.5mg Magnesium Aspartate, only 10 mg zinc)
B12 sublingual 5mg (might switch down to 1-2mg)
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 1g
Guggulsterones 37.5mg
n-methylfolate 500mg EOD (my folate levels tested very high)

With first meal of the day
P-5-P 50 mg (Rx by PTC)
Biotin 1000mcg (Rx by PTC)
Manganese 10mg (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin E 400 IU (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin D 4000 IU (Rx by PTC; I was taking 1000 IU but I tested very low for vitamin D - Spring is here so I may not need as much soon)
Vitamin A 10,000 IU EOD
Idebenone (CoQ10) 180mg
Pramiracetam 300 mg
Galantamine 4 mg
AlphaGPC 300 mg
Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix 500 mg (100 mg PS + mostly PC)



Afternoon (5PM)
Adderall 15mg IR
Xanax .5 mg ER
Galantamine 4 mg
AlphaGPC 300mg
Guggulsterones 37.5mg
Zinc Picolinate 50mg

Evening
Alprazolam .5mg IR
Magnesium Glycinate 400mg (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin C 500mg extended release
500mg Alpha Lipoic Acid Timed Release (waiting for R-Lipoic Acid)
L-Tyrosine 500mg (to replenish NTs)
Melatonin (working on appropriate sublingual dose).


Basic tips/supplements to help your memory:

-Cut down on alcohol. Seriously.
-No more neurotoxic amphetamines (Adderall helped me with all my cognitive difficulties except short-term memory deficits, which is actually how I became interested in nootropics to begin with)
-Use sublingual methyl-B12, NAC, and n-methylfolate. Consider alpha- or r-lipoic acid and ALCAR.
-Take Zinc and Magnesium (these also prevent hangovers!)
-Get exercise regularly
-Play dual n-back
-Get enough sleep, and get a sleep study if you can to check for sleep apnea, especially if you snore.

Wow that's an incredible amount of stuff you are taking. Do you find this enhances your quality of life or does it border on overkill? I couldn't agree more with your views on sleep and exercise but I would definitely add diet to that. All three of those are the cornerstone to any healthy lifestyle. By eating healthily there would also be no need for quite a few of the things you have there.
I'm also curious as to how Alprozalam, xanax, adderall, pramiracetam, lexapro and memantine all mix together? Jesus Your brain must be getting boshed all over the olace. I'm on day 6 of Memantine and although the initial terrible sides have gone there is a cerain amount of fog that still lingers. It's very good with stimulant type meds but i've tried mixing it with serotonegics but this is a bad idea so far. It increases the tiredness/fog even further.

[chrono]

You have a great regimen, labrat! I'm more than a little jealous. I'd keep taking the lion's mane (if you can afford it) even if you don't "feel" anything, as it's been shown to increase NGF. Possibly moreso when combined with ALCAR.

Along these same lines (and also highly relevant to this thread): have you looked at very low dose lithium for promotion of neurogenesis and prevention of stress-induced brain alterations?

I've used cannabis about a dozen times, twice having especially profound experiences. During one (in college) I experienced absolute short-term memory loss. Ever since, my short-term memory hasn't been the same. The blunt may have been laced with PCP "angel dust" which is known to contribute, but even if not, I took some huge hits from very pure stuff.

I think it's very problematic to say that marijuana has the capacity to permanently alter memory function when used in such isolation. Or a little PCP, even. The psychological impact of an intense and dissociative experience could have amplified the apparent importance of whatever brief effects these had on memory/cognition. Rather, I'd suggest it's more likely a combination of continued anxiety/depression with chronic alcohol use (both of which are detrimental to working memory).

In addition to dual-n-back, have you tried any systems of memory association? It would be a great addition, as they provide solid methods of increasing ease of recall (for example, remembering a long number by a memorable mental image, rather than relying on innate ability alone). Probably much more noticeable than the "muscle pumping" improvements dual-n-back provides.

[Lallante]

I too am glad this thread has been bumped. This forum is so judgemental of illegal drugs (bizarrely, as the distinction between them and a prescription-only drug obtained on the internet purely for perceived 'mood elevation' or 'focus' is muddy at best), I could have practically predicted the content of every post in reply to the Op without actually needing to read this.

I also note that many of the people who sit in judgement of synthesized drug use still smoke a lot of weed...

I am what one might call a super-heavy lifetime user of MDMA and ecstasy. One post earlier in the thread described a heavy user as "50+ pills". The average pill contains probably around 75mg of MDMA, perhaps even less. I would say I've taken, over 5 years, the equivalent of 2000 pills (not to mention moderate to heavy use of several other psychoactives, hallucinogens and stimulants).

That said, and while some of you may feel this statement is incompatible with the usage I've just described, I am eminently sensible about my drug use. Damage is not really correlative to total amount taken - how you take is also highly relevant. I have always pre- and post- loaded with anti-oxidants to minimize oxidative stress, 5-HTP to prevent extended seratonin depletion and so on, I also have strict rules about the length of a 'session' and the maximum total quanitity ingested in that time (amounts based on personal experience and scientific research).

My memory is powerful. My cognitive abilities are at least as strong as they have ever been, and I am very, very intelligent. I work in one of the most intellectually demanding and stress-based jobs there is, and far from suffering from my supposed 'abuse' of drugs, I actually find I have a far better and more conscious control of my mood than my colleagues, and perform (at the very least) competitively.

Am I an exception? I don't think so. I got in to this lifestyle at university (the University of Oxford), and have a group of 30 or so similarly ambitious, similarly intelligent friends who are all at the top of their chosen careers (medicine, banking, law, consultancy, trading or in business for the most part) and have a similar history with illegal narcotics.


Simply put - sensible but heavy MDMA use does not cause a noticeable long term negative effect on your cognition in practice.

That said, most drug users are not as 'sensible' as we are, in particular skipping the pre and post-loading and maintaining 'binges' for more than a few hours at a time. Both behaviours are likely to lead to oxidative stress and serotonin receptor downregulation. This can cause perceived issues with mood/anxiety and cognition/memory, but most studies seem to show this damage is not permanent!

Repair: I would recommend abstention from further MDMA use while you re-train your memory, avoid serotonergic substances in general for the time being (eventually, when you feel your memory has returned to any perceived previous strength, you can resume if desired, provided as mentioned you use sensibly).

I would recommend Bacopa, Piracetam (not attack doses, <1gm is fine) and a Choline source daily for a few months. I would be very surprised if you dont see results.

Edited by Lallante, 13 April 2010 - 08:57 AM.

[Thorsten3]

I too am glad this thread has been bumped. This forum is so judgemental of illegal drugs (bizarrely, as the distinction between them and a prescription-only drug obtained on the internet purely for perceived 'mood elevation' or 'focus' is muddy at best), I could have practically predicted the content of every post in reply to the Op without actually needing to read this.

I also note that many of the people who sit in judgement of synthesized drug use still smoke a lot of weed...

I am what one might call a super-heavy lifetime user of MDMA and ecstasy. One post earlier in the thread described a heavy user as "50+ pills". The average pill contains probably around 75mg of MDMA, perhaps even less. I would say I've taken, over 5 years, the equivalent of 2000 pills (not to mention moderate to heavy use of several other psychoactives, hallucinogens and stimulants).

That said, and while some of you may feel this statement is incompatible with the usage I've just described, I am eminently sensible about my drug use. Damage is not really correlative to total amount taken - how you take is also highly relevant. I have always pre- and post- loaded with anti-oxidants to minimize oxidative stress, 5-HTP to prevent extended seratonin depletion and so on, I also have strict rules about the length of a 'session' and the maximum total quanitity ingested in that time (amounts based on personal experience and scientific research).

My memory is powerful. My cognitive abilities are at least as strong as they have ever been, and I am very, very intelligent. I work in one of the most intellectually demanding and stress-based jobs there is, and far from suffering from my supposed 'abuse' of drugs, I actually find I have a far better and more conscious control of my mood than my colleagues, and perform (at the very least) competitively.

Am I an exception? I don't think so. I got in to this lifestyle at university (the University of Oxford), and have a group of 30 or so similarly ambitious, similarly intelligent friends who are all at the top of their chosen careers (medicine, banking, law, consultancy, trading or in business for the most part) and have a similar history with illegal narcotics.


Simply put - sensible but heavy MDMA use does not cause a noticeable long term negative effect on your cognition in practice.

That said, most drug users are not as 'sensible' as we are, in particular skipping the pre and post-loading and maintaining 'binges' for more than a few hours at a time. Both behaviours are likely to lead to oxidative stress and serotonin receptor downregulation. This can cause perceived issues with mood/anxiety and cognition/memory, but most studies seem to show this damage is not permanent!

Repair: I would recommend abstention from further MDMA use while you re-train your memory, avoid serotonergic substances in general for the time being (eventually, when you feel your memory has returned to any perceived previous strength, you can resume if desired, provided as mentioned you use sensibly).

I would recommend Bacopa, Piracetam (not attack doses, <1gm is fine) and a Choline source daily for a few months. I would be very surprised if you dont see results.

If I had my time again I would not go near that shit. I don't care how good it feels. If used incorrectly this stuff changes your brain quite profoundly. The thing is when I use it on occasions I notice no change at all in my phyche nowadays. It's like those first few magical hits were the ones that did the real damage. Anything I do now is damage limitation or the drug is not as strong as it was. Either way there is no going back.

[tunt01]

I too am glad this thread has been bumped. This forum is so judgemental of illegal drugs (bizarrely, as the distinction between them and a prescription-only drug obtained on the internet purely for perceived 'mood elevation' or 'focus' is muddy at best), I could have practically predicted the content of every post in reply to the Op without actually needing to read this.

i personally dont care if you or anyone is snorting coke off a hooker's ass. but expecting equality in judgement between people who fry their brains engaging in hedonistic behavior and those who are trying to improve their cognitive capability for the sake of being more productive, seems pretty stupid to me.

[chrono]

Well, it's hardly what most of us are here to discuss, and is in many ways opposed to it. But I think the point that a lot of people are somewhat mean-spirited and derisive about drug use because it's culturally fashionable is a valid one. For my part, I'm not here to pass judgement on the compromises each of us make with an unswervingly healthy lifestyle.

Lallante: the mechanism of MDMA neurotoxicity is not yet entirely understood, and pre/post-loading as an effective countermeasure is based on a lot of assumptions. Supposing you've done no damage to your neurons with such repeated heavy usage is wishful thinking, whether you suffer noticeable cognitive deficits or not. Though I agree that your methods probably mitigate this to some degree.

[Lallante]

Well, it's hardly what most of us are here to discuss, and is in many ways opposed to it. But I think the point that a lot of people are somewhat mean-spirited and derisive about drug use because it's culturally fashionable is a valid one. For my part, I'm not here to pass judgement on the compromises each of us make with an unswervingly healthy lifestyle.

Lallante: the mechanism of MDMA neurotoxicity is not yet entirely understood, and pre/post-loading as an effective countermeasure is based on a lot of assumptions. Supposing you've done no damage to your neurons with such repeated heavy usage is wishful thinking, whether you suffer noticeable cognitive deficits or not. Though I agree that your methods probably mitigate this to some degree.

True indeed, and lets suppose I have done myself some form of damage: if I am nevertheless still on the top of my game, have no subjective negative effects and can locate no areas of cognitive weakness (to the contrary, though I dont attribute this to drugs OR supplements, I am actually better at my job than most of my peers), then what exactly is the issue?

The long-term aspect, though less well studied (due to the difficulty of controlling long-term studies), is no less experimented with. I have several friends in their mid and late 30s who have been heavy users since their teens and have no subjective negative effects.

Repeating over and over that these substances are dangerous because we dont fully understand their long term effects is rather rich in a forum where near enough everyone is taking a regime of a cocktail of exotic substances that are even less understood and FAR less widespread.


Finally, the interesting idea that there are 'noble' motivations for experimentation in nootropics which are somehow better than the desires influencing the use of illegal drugs such as MDMA. This is an interesting one. What is to say that a goal of 'fun' is any less worthy than a goal of 'improved intelligence'. In both cases we are taking what is unarguably a risk (even though you might argue the risk (as borne out by scientific studies) of a regimen of, say, Piracetam, is pretty negligable, I would argue the same of bimonthly pre and post loaded use of a few hundred mg of MDMA (equally as borne out by scientific studies)) taken for the purposes of gaining an advantage over normal functioning, be it improved concentration and focus or (greatly) enhanced enjoyment and social bonding.

Ask yourself why you want improved intelligence, memory and focus. It seem like an obvious question, but follow it through. You want these effects because you perceive that they will enhance your ability at work or study, or in a social setting. Why are the first two important? Perhaps because they enhance your career prospects (viewed purposively - your earning potential). Why is any of this important to you? Because you feel, subconsciously or consciously, that having increased income and status will allow you to live a happier and more fulfilled life, or in the case of improved ease in social settings, allow you to socially bond more effectively. How is that any different from the motivation behind recreational drug use? It isn't.

What is the point of life if not to facilitate one's own enjoyment and improvement? There isn't one.

[Invariant]

Well, it's hardly what most of us are here to discuss, and is in many ways opposed to it. But I think the point that a lot of people are somewhat mean-spirited and derisive about drug use because it's culturally fashionable is a valid one. For my part, I'm not here to pass judgement on the compromises each of us make with an unswervingly healthy lifestyle.

Lallante: the mechanism of MDMA neurotoxicity is not yet entirely understood, and pre/post-loading as an effective countermeasure is based on a lot of assumptions. Supposing you've done no damage to your neurons with such repeated heavy usage is wishful thinking, whether you suffer noticeable cognitive deficits or not. Though I agree that your methods probably mitigate this to some degree.

True indeed, and lets suppose I have done myself some form of damage: if I am nevertheless still on the top of my game, have no subjective negative effects and can locate no areas of cognitive weakness (to the contrary, though I dont attribute this to drugs OR supplements, I am actually better at my job than most of my peers), then what exactly is the issue?

The long-term aspect, though less well studied (due to the difficulty of controlling long-term studies), is no less experimented with. I have several friends in their mid and late 30s who have been heavy users since their teens and have no subjective negative effects.

Repeating over and over that these substances are dangerous because we dont fully understand their long term effects is rather rich in a forum where near enough everyone is taking a regime of a cocktail of exotic substances that are even less understood and FAR less widespread.


Finally, the interesting idea that there are 'noble' motivations for experimentation in nootropics which are somehow better than the desires influencing the use of illegal drugs such as MDMA. This is an interesting one. What is to say that a goal of 'fun' is any less worthy than a goal of 'improved intelligence'. In both cases we are taking what is unarguably a risk (even though you might argue the risk (as borne out by scientific studies) of a regimen of, say, Piracetam, is pretty negligable, I would argue the same of bimonthly pre and post loaded use of a few hundred mg of MDMA (equally as borne out by scientific studies)) taken for the purposes of gaining an advantage over normal functioning, be it improved concentration and focus or (greatly) enhanced enjoyment and social bonding.

Ask yourself why you want improved intelligence, memory and focus. It seem like an obvious question, but follow it through. You want these effects because you perceive that they will enhance your ability at work or study, or in a social setting. Why are the first two important? Perhaps because they enhance your career prospects (viewed purposively - your earning potential). Why is any of this important to you? Because you feel, subconsciously or consciously, that having increased income and status will allow you to live a happier and more fulfilled life, or in the case of improved ease in social settings, allow you to socially bond more effectively. How is that any different from the motivation behind recreational drug use? It isn't.

What is the point of life if not to facilitate one's own enjoyment and improvement? There isn't one.

I agree with many of your points but I'd like to point out one thing that you appear to have overlooked. While not actually used as such, the nootropics forum on imminst is for discussing ways in which we can use nootropics to prevent or reverse age related mental decline and disorders. Granted, we want to be mentally healthy because it makes us happy, but the focus here is on the long term, not on short term happiness at the cost of long term health. In reality the forum is used more for testing dangerous cocktails of semi-legal drugs on yourself, but it is not the intent and should be discouraged.

I have used MDMA and shrooms a couple times (not together) myself and while I'm still one of the best students in my university, I do feel like my verbalization and short-term memory isn't what it was before. I guess it depends on the person, some can go for years without damage and some are ruined by one use. I do wonder if the difference is only in the amount of damage, or also in people's ability to gauge their own level of cognitive performance.. (I had a weed smoking roommate who had horrible short-term memory who insisted nothing was wrong.)

[Jurence]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Edited by Jurence, 13 April 2010 - 08:14 PM.

[Lallante]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

[chrono]

if I am nevertheless still on the top of my game, have no subjective negative effects and can locate no areas of cognitive weakness (to the contrary, though I dont attribute this to drugs OR supplements, I am actually better at my job than most of my peers), then what exactly is the issue?

If you're assuming that you'll be able to feel any negative impact on brain structure/chemistry as a significant drop in mental performance, then I guess there's no issue for you. Though I'm not sure how you can say it hasn't been detrimental in any way based on a sample size of 1 (i.e. no control on which to base the comparison).

Repeating over and over that these substances are dangerous because we dont fully understand their long term effects is rather rich in a forum where near enough everyone is taking a regime of a cocktail of exotic substances that are even less understood and FAR less widespread.

In this case, it's not that we "don't fully understand" the effects (which can be said of any substance, at this stage). It's that there's a fairly huge body of evidence showing neurological and cognitive damage, and your methods for allegedly negating this are based on the anecdotal success of unproven countermeasures.

Finally, the interesting idea that there are 'noble' motivations for experimentation in nootropics which are somehow better than the desires influencing the use of illegal drugs such as MDMA.

You're indulging yourself in feeling persecuted. This is a forum about improving the functioning of the mind. Nootropics aren't so much "noble" as on-topic.

Taking a calculated risk to gain something valuable is a choice some of us make. You've already made your point about more intelligent usage, but I guess what you want is for us to condone your heavy amphetamine use, and not mention the proven downsides when you recommend it to others.

[LabRat84]

I'm glad this thread was bumped.

I've used cannabis about a dozen times, twice having especially profound experiences. During one (in college) I experienced absolute short-term memory loss. Ever since, my short-term memory hasn't been the same. The blunt may have been laced with PCP "angel dust" which is known to contribute, but even if not, I took some huge hits from very pure stuff.

I've also had anxiety and depression problems that pre-dated that experience. Regular alcohol use certainly didn't help. I developed concentration and verbal fluency problems, which became worse the day after drinking.
I've been seeing a psychiatrist since August and a went to see a neurologist last month. My psychiatric meds have reduced my desire to drink, which is good. I drink a lot less now. My neurologist ordered thyroid tests and recommended B12, either sublingual or shots. I started sublingual methyl-B12 together with n-methylfolate and my memory started improving. After a few days on methyl-B12 my plasma levels were normal (I didn't have a pre-treatment baseline, but they were probably low). I'm taking 300mg pramiracetam every day with alphaGPC, and I just got aniracetam for its ampakine action. I also take 8 mg of galantamine/day, divided into 4mg doses.

My stack:

AM (empty stomach)
Prescribed meds
Adderall XR 30 (I know you're trying to stay away from amphetamines, and I'd like to find a better alternative at some point)
Alprazolam 1.0 mg ER + .25mg IR (same goes for benzos - would rather not be on these long-term, but they're very helpful)
Lexapro (Escitalopram) 10 mg (I have some Stablon and a full supply coming in, but I'm not sure I want to tinker with serotonin quite yet)
Other meds
Memantine 10mg (to reduce amphetamine tolerance and improve cognitive performance)
Deprenyl 5mg every other day (anti-aging and mood booster)
Supplements
SAM-e 400mg
ALCAR 500mg (just got arginate, might switch - arginine is good by itself, so I might as well)
Lion's mane (no bad effects so far; want to see if this actually does anything)
Zinc Picolinate 100mg (Prescribed by Pfeiffer Treatment Center- I have serious copper/zinc balance issues and need 150mg zinc/day to maintain good levels)
1 capsule ZMA (for the magnesium: ~112.5mg Magnesium Aspartate, only 10 mg zinc)
B12 sublingual 5mg (might switch down to 1-2mg)
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 1g
Guggulsterones 37.5mg
n-methylfolate 500mg EOD (my folate levels tested very high)

With first meal of the day
P-5-P 50 mg (Rx by PTC)
Biotin 1000mcg (Rx by PTC)
Manganese 10mg (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin E 400 IU (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin D 4000 IU (Rx by PTC; I was taking 1000 IU but I tested very low for vitamin D - Spring is here so I may not need as much soon)
Vitamin A 10,000 IU EOD
Idebenone (CoQ10) 180mg
Pramiracetam 300 mg
Galantamine 4 mg
AlphaGPC 300 mg
Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix 500 mg (100 mg PS + mostly PC)



Afternoon (5PM)
Adderall 15mg IR
Xanax .5 mg ER
Galantamine 4 mg
AlphaGPC 300mg
Guggulsterones 37.5mg
Zinc Picolinate 50mg

Evening
Alprazolam .5mg IR
Magnesium Glycinate 400mg (Rx by PTC)
Vitamin C 500mg extended release
500mg Alpha Lipoic Acid Timed Release (waiting for R-Lipoic Acid)
L-Tyrosine 500mg (to replenish NTs)
Melatonin (working on appropriate sublingual dose).


Basic tips/supplements to help your memory:

-Cut down on alcohol. Seriously.
-No more neurotoxic amphetamines (Adderall helped me with all my cognitive difficulties except short-term memory deficits, which is actually how I became interested in nootropics to begin with)
-Use sublingual methyl-B12, NAC, and n-methylfolate. Consider alpha- or r-lipoic acid and ALCAR.
-Take Zinc and Magnesium (these also prevent hangovers!)
-Get exercise regularly
-Play dual n-back
-Get enough sleep, and get a sleep study if you can to check for sleep apnea, especially if you snore.

Wow that's an incredible amount of stuff you are taking. Do you find this enhances your quality of life or does it border on overkill? I couldn't agree more with your views on sleep and exercise but I would definitely add diet to that. All three of those are the cornerstone to any healthy lifestyle. By eating healthily there would also be no need for quite a few of the things you have there.
I'm also curious as to how Alprozalam, xanax, adderall, pramiracetam, lexapro and memantine all mix together? Jesus Your brain must be getting boshed all over the olace. I'm on day 6 of Memantine and although the initial terrible sides have gone there is a cerain amount of fog that still lingers. It's very good with stimulant type meds but i've tried mixing it with serotonegics but this is a bad idea so far. It increases the tiredness/fog even further.

It's actually not that much if you think about it. I don't take much beyond what's in a typical multivitamin, and I take what I need to balance my specific levels (I'm a patient of the HRI Pfeiffer Treatment Center). I want to supplement with the best, most bioavailable forms. That's why I'm using Methyl B12, P5P, and methylfolate. instead of just a multi-B. In fact, I've dropped the multi-B altogether. Being on amphetamines, the most potent benzo, and the best (and probably last) SSRI to be developed concerns me a bit. What I do know is that they're helping me. It was the side effects and "gaps" that led me to this forum (I still had difficulty concentrating and still suffered short-term memory loss even after I started the Adderall.) I found out about B12, NAC, and ALCAR here and they started reversing my cognitive deficits very quickly.

I was taking Source Naturals Mega Mind, which has everything but the kitchen sink. But that looks like a "simpler" regimen than what I'm taking. (The pills are huge and taste horrible).

I haven't been scientific enough with the racetams. I just tried aniracetam and it seems to be very effective (I'm blowing through psychopharmacology textbooks, ha). I haven't really tried pramiracetam in isolation or in doses higher than 400mg; I probably should. Oxiracetam 800mg didn't seem to do much. I actually haven't tried plain 'ol piracetam. I'm going to experiment a bit more and then order in bulk once I figure out what's effective. I have a bunch of other things to try but my goal is stability. I have most of the major antioxidants (resveratrol, olive leaf, etc.), green tea (which was part of my stack but gave me heartburn), and some of the more obscure Russian drugs (phenibut, noopept, phenotropil). Oh, I forgot to list L-Threonine on my PM list.

I did become obsessed with supplements, and I'm simplifying my regimen and getting on with my life. I was taking Bacopa (Bacognize) for several weeks and I'm pretty sure it contributed to fatigue without noticeable congnitive effects. One more supplement I plan to try is Ashwagandha. (I probably won't try Rhodiola for a while because it's likely an MAO.) I'm getting more exercise, eating better, and feeling better. I have a sleep study scheduled this week (I'm almost certain I have obstructive sleep apnea - two immediate relatives do, and overnight companions have noticed it.) I still have problems with motivation, time management, and obsessiveness. But I will soon make a material contribution to this forum very soon that I think you'll all appreciate.

Other psychiatric issues I have, like procrastination and avoidance behaviors, are probably better dealt with using CBT. That's the next step for me.

As for the interactions, I haven't noticed side effects from memantine. I take 10mg once a day. I don't have any "fog" other than when I wake up in the morning. Oh, and Xanax is Alprazolam - I forgot to change the name to the generic. I won't go into the pharmacology right now, but each of the drugs interacts with distinct targets. Drugs.com has a wonderful feature where you can check for interactions, including hepatic ones. So far, so good.

[Jurence]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Please tell me where MDMA is legal.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am strictly trying to defend the integrity of this organization and to prevent it turning into having a reputation of "where all the *really* intelligent druggies go* sort of like what blulight.ru has. Of course we are far away from that, and will remain that way! :-)

Edited by Jurence, 14 April 2010 - 04:41 PM.

[polybi]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Please tell me where MDMA is legal.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am strictly trying to defend the integrity of this organization and to prevent it turning into having a reputation of "where all the *really* intelligent druggies go* sort of like what blulight.ru has. Of course we are far away from that, and will remain that way! :-)

Portugal, poland, mexico

[LabRat84]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Please tell me where MDMA is legal.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am strictly trying to defend the integrity of this organization and to prevent it turning into having a reputation of "where all the *really* intelligent druggies go* sort of like what blulight.ru has. Of course we are far away from that, and will remain that way! :-)

Portugal, poland, mexico

And Canada. Polybi, your concerns are valid. But many people are prescribed drugs that lead to long-term damage, and many have abused substances--legal and illegal--and are genuinely looking for ways to recover their cognititive abilities. Almost all research into cognitive enhancement comes from Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, both of which involve neuronal damage and cognitive impairment. I fail to see a relevant difference between that and sharing research and experience with substance-induced cognitive impairment.

[Lallante]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Please tell me where MDMA is legal.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am strictly trying to defend the integrity of this organization and to prevent it turning into having a reputation of "where all the *really* intelligent druggies go* sort of like what blulight.ru has. Of course we are far away from that, and will remain that way! :-)

As well as the responses above, this really does demonstrate a basic illogical discrimination against what you call "druggies". There is really very little in principal to morally or intellectualy separate using a serotonergic (and likely illegal) chemical and using, for example, adderal off label to improve exam results. The only difference is legal classification, and even that entirely depends on which jurisdiction you are in and is often far from logical or based on consistant principles. Rethink your biased presumptions please.

[Thorsten3]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Where do you live? Drugs in my possesion without a prescription are not illegal unless they are controlled substances. I'm not going to go to jail for possessing an anti-depressant I've bought off the internet. Or were you referring to the 'controlled' prescription drugs? The chemicals I have had imported into the UK for my own personal use have on occasions been stopped by customs - but then released and sent on their way to my lovely doorstep!

[polybi]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Where do you live? Drugs in my possesion without a prescription are not illegal unless they are controlled substances. I'm not going to go to jail for possessing an anti-depressant I've bought off the internet. Or were you referring to the 'controlled' prescription drugs? The chemicals I have had imported into the UK for my own personal use have on occasions been stopped by customs - but then released and sent on their way to my lovely doorstep!

america doesnt allow any prescription drugs

[Lallante]

Little research to find out that it is oxidative damage from MDMA that causes the damage would quickly prompt you to use materials and posts here and elsewhere to find nootropics that have antioxidant properties. I am seeing an increased trend in the discussions of illegal drug use on the imminst boards, and it is disconcerting to say the least.

Prescription drugs are 'illegal drugs' to possess without a prescription, and yet there are (and always have been) many threads on these forums dedicated to discussing the best suppliers.

Where do you live? Drugs in my possesion without a prescription are not illegal unless they are controlled substances. I'm not going to go to jail for possessing an anti-depressant I've bought off the internet. Or were you referring to the 'controlled' prescription drugs? The chemicals I have had imported into the UK for my own personal use have on occasions been stopped by customs - but then released and sent on their way to my lovely doorstep!

Just because you aren't being punished for something doesn't mean it isn't illegal. Posessing any kind of prescription drug without a prescription is illegal in the US. Importing (ie buying from abroad on the internet) is also illegal. This may not be true wherever you live (but I bet it is, at least with some controlled substances), but that's no more (or less) relevant than the fact that MDMA is legal in Spain or Mexico.