45 replies to this topic

[youandme]

Thanks Rwac for your posts.!

That study is interesting.
Now Ive seen several potential treatments..interestingly none that I know of are being tried on a clinical basis..not sure why ?!

[youandme]

Peter @ Hyperlipid has some comments on this.

Can you post your macronutrient ratios here? If your wife is very conservative with fat, you might consider pointing her to some relevant studies/blogs on the matter. Also, usually low-fat thinking comes packed with the idea that PUFAs are good and saturated fats are bad, which probably won't help your liver any.

JLL
Thankyou...especially for that link to Peter's blogs....even more informative are when people make comment to the his posts.

Im not quite ready to finalise my diet by ratios.
However in my next post I will highlight what Ive changed so far and current results.

Thanks

[youandme]

Just got my latest LFT results.

All are within normal range...for the first time in 4 years the GGT was well within normal range.
ALT and ALKP are well within normal range...
the only LFT that rose was Total Bilirubin....not sure why...but still happy to see all signs of liver injury reduce.

Hoping these results are pointing to Liver getting better...will be getting an Ultrasound in a couple of months to see how it looks

What Ive changed in my diet

Removed Foods:
Chewing Gum (aspartame laden)
Honey (Fructose laden)
Cocounut Choc bars (who knows whats in them)
Cows Milk - replaced with Rice Milk
Reduced dramatically fruit intake (reducing fructose)


Added Foods:
Butter from Grass Fed Cows to increase SCFA's/butyrate acid (btw very orange in colour)
Linseed, Almonds, Sunflower Seeds, Taurine, Slippery Elm combined into a breakfast cereal with Rice Milk.

Added Exercise:
Now Ride Bike to and from work - 1 hour journey 2 times a week.

Meds:
Increaed Thyroid Hormone Replacement....now close to being Hyper..(however I think this maybe helping the metabolism efficiency of the Liver)..


See my Blood Results attached...
The LFT's have improved markedly over the last 6 months...however Bilirubin has increased..bucking the positive trend.

Attached Files

•  bloods.jpg   55.08KB   9 downloads

Edited by youandme, 14 January 2010 - 12:16 PM.

[James Cain]

Thanks James for your input !

I agree with pretty much most of your post.

The only question marks are...fasting causes Fatty Liver.
I noticed the Mouse study where they induced NASH by fasting.
And then recently heard that those people who have lapband sugery develop fatty livers as well.

Why would sudden reduction in food intake induce a fatty liver ?

Which paper would that be?

I've seen a couple papers (most by Varady, et al. I think) that showed a marked increase in de novo lipogenesis in the refeeding after a fasting period. Even lapband mimics CR to an extent that it could be deemed fasting compared to a normal diet. These are mixed diets and the DNL is glucose mediated. Two adaptations of fasting and meal-feeding are enhanced energy storage and enhanced energy mobilization. This makes sense because if you are repeatedly fasting then you become better at using stored fuel for energy. At the same time you must eat more food (presumably, but even "normal" sized meals will seem large compared to fasting) when you do eat, and the body becomes more efficient at storing the energy since it is expecting to go without food for an extended period of time.

This could theoretically lead to an increased chance of fatty liver. This might only be relevant to those on a higher-carb fasting diet or more imporantly an energy-excess diet. I can't imagine losing or maintaining weight on just about any diet leading to fatty liver, but you can get fatty liver on just about any diet in energy excess.

I'd hedge my bets on DNL, but I'd like to look at the papers if you have the refs available.

[James Cain]

Removed Foods:
Cows Milk - replaced with Rice Milk


Added Foods:
Linseed, Almonds, Sunflower Seeds

You removed cow's milk (galactose) which is probably good if you already have liver problems, but rice milk has a ton of sugar from the stuff I've seen. The linseed and nuts are pretty high is PUFA as well. I'm all for eating these foods, but you might want to avoid them for a short period during your "liver rehab." You don't have to go crazy with these eliminations, but I wouldn't suggest making them a significant portion of your diet until you're in the clear.

Great improvement on the liver enzymes. Hopefully the thyroid and dietary changes help your lipid profile too, mainly the triglycerides and HDL.

Edited by James Cain, 27 January 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[youandme]

Hi james

Thanks for your post and comments.

I remember reading about post surgery causing Liver inflammation etc..but can I find it !
also one of my earlier posts highlighted that a study in mice were made to fast to induce a fatty liver for experiementation..

However this human study below :
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1402345/

shows a positive report on surgical procedures for a better outcome for people with NAFLD.
It does highlight that an additional 'insult' to the liver such as surgey or large weight loss and diet change can aggravate an already stressed out Liver..certain procedures are worse.
Perhaps this is what I read...however the study concludes:

In conclusion, this study presents anthropometric, biochemical, and histologic evidence of significant improvement of NAFLD after profound weight loss induced by minimally-invasive techniques. The reversal of liver disease was globally apparent across all stages and grades (except in two cirrhotic patients) and this effect was achieved with only minimal morbidity and no mortality. There is an intimate relationship between metabolic syndrome and NAFLD, as shown by the coexistence of both disease processes and, conversely, by their simultaneous regression with weight loss.

Here maybe a clue in this article...'PPAR'..does it apply to humans ??

Lipid Metabolism and Liver Inflammation. II. Fatty liver disease and fatty acid oxidation.
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/290/5/G852
Overnight or prolonged fasting leads to severe hepatic steatosis when PPAR- sensing is inefficient, as seen in PPAR-^–/– mice (11, 20). PPAR-^–/– mice fail to upregulate fatty acid oxidation systems in the liver and cannot oxidize the influxed fatty acids and thus develop severe hepatic steatosis. PPAR-^–/–

[youandme]

The Rice Milk has 8.5 grams of sugar per 250ml...not sure what that equates to in Cows Milk ?..

I probably only use about 100ml as I use half water..so approx intake is 4 grams of sugar at breakfast from the Rice Milk.

However it also has 23.6grams of carbohydrate !

I wish there was a low sugar & low carbohydrate milk alternative...looked at oat milk but thats worse for sugar and carbs.

Yeah I think that the thyroid level is significant..I seem to have broken thru with my LFT's so to speak....going a little higher on the thyroid maybe a factor.

...blood tests every 2 months from now on to check.

You removed cow's milk (galactose) which is probably good if you already have liver problems, but rice milk has a ton of sugar from the stuff I've seen. The linseed and nuts are pretty high is PUFA as well. I'm all for eating these foods, but you might want to avoid them for a short period during your "liver rehab." You don't have to go crazy with these eliminations, but I wouldn't suggest making them a significant portion of your diet until you're in the clear.

Great improvement on the liver enzymes. Hopefully the thyroid and dietary changes help your lipid profile too, mainly the triglycerides and HDL.

[rwac]

I wish there was a low sugar & low carbohydrate milk alternative...

It's called heavy cream.

Lipid Metabolism and Liver Inflammation. II. Fatty liver disease and fatty acid oxidation.
http://ajpgi.physiol...full/290/5/G852
Overnight or prolonged fasting leads to severe hepatic steatosis when PPAR- sensing is inefficient, as seen in PPAR-^–/– mice (11, 20). PPAR-^–/– mice fail to upregulate fatty acid oxidation systems in the liver and cannot oxidize the influxed fatty acids and thus develop severe hepatic steatosis. PPAR-^–/–

It's specific mouse model with PPAR-alpha knocked out. Humans do express PPAR-alpha, so I'm not sure what it's supposed to show.

[youandme]

Ooh Heavy Cream...thats big n fat and all that btw I wonder how much sugar is in cream ?

I mentioned PPAR (removed) as a mechanism shown to cause fatty liver when fasting (albeit in mice)..
Question ....Is PPAR a possible factor in Fasting in humans and NAFLD...??

It's called heavy cream.


It's specific mouse model with PPAR-alpha knocked out. Humans do express PPAR-alpha, so I'm not sure what it's supposed to show.

[rwac]

Ooh Heavy Cream...thats big n fat and all that btw I wonder how much sugar is in cream ?

Very very little.

Question ....Is PPAR a possible factor in Fasting in humans and NAFLD...??

I doubt it. People can fast for days without too much trouble, but mice need to eat a significant portion of their bodyweight in food everyday.

Edited by rwac, 29 January 2010 - 07:14 AM.

[Berama]

Hi You and me

I've read that caffeine can cause a protective fat build up in the liver - do you drink a lot of coffee?

B

[James Cain]

Ooh Heavy Cream...thats big n fat and all that btw I wonder how much sugar is in cream ?

I mentioned PPAR (removed) as a mechanism shown to cause fatty liver when fasting (albeit in mice)..
Question ....Is PPAR a possible factor in Fasting in humans and NAFLD...??

It's called heavy cream.


It's specific mouse model with PPAR-alpha knocked out. Humans do express PPAR-alpha, so I'm not sure what it's supposed to show.

The PPARs are associated with macronutrient metabolism (among other things). PPAR-alpha agonists (fibrates) and PPAR-gamma agonists (anti-diabetics) are used to treat metabolic disorders primarily by increasing fat storage and fat cell differentiation. While this may make a person have more fat cells and potentially have more total fat mass, these adaptations can allow for better glycemic control and lipid regulation. I know that fasting increases PPAR-alpha expression, which would make sense as an adaptation to easily store and mobilize fat for energy. I read some papers that show fasting increases de novo lipogenesis, so I'd assume this effect carries over to the liver such that if you overdo carb or protein intake you'de be more apt to store it as fat, and potentially led to increased fat storage in the liver. Then again, this would only be a concern (as far as I know) in overall caloric excess.

[youandme]

James

Thankyou for that input and explanation..love the fact there are good people like yourself who know their stuff and are willing to share the knowledge..we can all learn from this place.

Rwac/James
What I was thinking was..perhaps there is situation in humans (for whatever reason)where PPAR Alpha is inhibited ? Causing NAFLD ??....I know no evidence of such thing...but more the thought..this is what you get from mouse experiments conjecture



Berama
No I dont drink coffee..I did but 1 small cup per day...so I think we can rule that out...still think its a metabolic issue tied with a dysregulated immune system...its gone out of wack...but its not easy to pinpoint exactly the mechanism..hence me searching and really guessing if PPAR alpha inhibition in humans could cause NAFLD the same as mice without any PPAR Alpha.

[youandme]

Its been a while since I posted about my NAFLD....I thought Id give the high fat diet a good go (lots of organic grass fed cow butter...on everything)...and not test until now.....and the results are in....and



Bugger !



Higher LDL 3.9
HDL (unchanged at 1.1)

LFT (ggt) gone from 50 to 99



Ultrasound Result Bad...increase of fat in the Liver from last year noted in Liver Doctors Report....



Note: Rice Milk was eliminated...no margarine...low sugar...



I guess it can be said that the High Fat diet was a complete failure.

[rwac]

Ok, you should read this. Have you tried choline yet ?

http://blog.choleste...ggs-organs.html

Edited by rwac, 09 December 2010 - 06:17 AM.

[youandme]

Thanks rwac

That link provided a good read...not that I understand it all..if I did Im sure id have my own ideas....even if the author is wrong Im heartened by the fact that people are talking about this in such a way....soon we might just get some definitive answers.



Choline + L-Carnitine perhaps