10 replies to this topic

[Solitude]

This is really only partially a "Nootropics" thread, but I don't know where else I can ask something like this and get a fact-based, scientific answer. Does anyone know anywhere else I could get a good answer to this largely psychological question? This is an extremely serious issue for me (though it may seem silly to you).

I am a very, very, very bad learner. I have a high IQ (ie, my brain is in perfectly good health, in theory), but I'm completely terrible at learning. I *know* how to learn (ie, I've done the research and understand the best methods and techniques), but I fail to employ the effective methods. I'm supposed to be a good, competitive musician. However, it seems like whenever I'm practicing my instrument, my brain loses all ability for rational thought, and I do a terrible job, and I don't learn anything. As soon as I sit down to practice, I lapse into all sorts of terrible habits. For example, practicing slow is important, but I only realize and understand this when I'm not practicing. That's just one of several terrible things I do compulsively.

I know, it seems totally silly to say something like "I can't practice using method X", because one would expect that I can just sit down and do it. I seems really dumb to me, too, but it's an immense problem which is severely compromising my education, happiness and future. It makes no sense, and I understand that it might sound like I'm just complaining, or something, but, just saying “today I will practice effectively” doesn't work. It just... doesn't. It's like an addiction, and I have no idea why I would be addicted to doing a bad job at something and being miserable because of it, but I am, and I need to quit. This isn't an issue only with practicing my instrument - it has also historically been a problem with other activities I have taken up seriously over the past several years.

I am willing to take any measures necessary to resolve this issue. I would like to try Ibogaine (very theoretical), but it currently is not feasible due to the extreme cost. I will try meditation. I'm very skeptical, but it theoretically helps reduce the automatic influence of the amygdala, which should help. I currently take Piracetam before bed if I have to wake up early, and ALCAR for energy in the mornings on those days.

Nootropics or not, what other measures (no matter how extreme) could I take?

[Zoroaster]

I don't know that you need to get too extreme here. It sounds like you really just need something to help you break your behavioral patterns. Maybe you should get a teacher for a few weeks. It might be a little embarrassing at your level but having someone else lead you through your practice session, giving you feedback throughout seems like it might be really helpful for you. You could do that for several practices in a row to try to reset your patterns.

Alternatively, you could just get someone you know to come hang out with you during your practice. They can bring a book or something so they have something to do when they're not needed. Then you could make a list beforehand of all the things you want to change about your practice methods and have them go through the list with you as you practice.

If getting someone else to sit with you is too embarrassing or impractical even just planning your practice out ahead of time might be helpful. Before you even pick up your instrument you can write down what you're going to do during each step of the practice session. Plan it out before you sit down and start into your automatic behaviors. Then just follow the list once you start practicing. Switching up your practice location when you do this could make it even easier to adjust your practice methods.

Supplement wise I think it's going to be hard to find supplements targeted specifically towards reducing automatic behaviors. It might be best to look for things that reduce anxiety generally, since anxiety and OCD-like patterned behaviors can go hand in hand. You could try some phenibut (very effective), theanine, bacopa or rhodiola. I'd also recommend meditation but I wouldn't bother trying it unless you have a group around you can join or at very least some guided meditation CDs or something. It can be really hard to get into by yourself.

Hope that helps.

[Solitude]

That's some very good advice, Zoroaster, thank you. I do have a teacher (most musicians pretty much have a teacher until they reach the professional level), but it's really quite expensive, and as it is, we don't get through nearly as much as would be ideal each week as it is. If it was financially feasible, I would definitely dish out the $70+/hour for a few hours a week for several weeks and be done with it, but that's ridiculously expensive..

Having someone other than a teacher watch me practice is a great idea actually, I can't believe I didn't think of that. That is, if I can find someone who doesn't mind investing a fair bit of time. Almost everyone I know who is competent enough is much too busy during the school seasons, but it's definitely an option (and probably ther best one) at a less-busy time of year. Carefully planning my practice sessions is what I've been working on quite extensive lately, but to only limited effect. It's as if the only way to stop me from behaving stupidly as soon as I start practicing is for someone to whack me with a great big stick. I wonder if you can hire people to do that?

Yes, I was thinking something that is useful against OCD would be useful. I don't suffer from any classic symptoms, but I do have several fairly compulsive behaviors (such as compulsive smiling, among others, grr). I don't suffer from any psychological symptoms of anxiety, but my heart rate (among other things) really ramps up when I have to perform (even though my rational brain doesn't feel too anxious). That might make bacopa a good option.

Phenibut actually sounds like a good option, too. If I cycle it, I could probably get the inhibitory effects (to help reform my habits) without any extensive withdrawal - I hope. How would Picamilon compare? There doesn't seem to be as much information available about it. Of course, I don't expect any drugs to be a 'magical cure' by any means, but it's certainly feasible that they could help. I'll give bacopa a shot, too.

Also, should I drop the tea? I drink 2-3.5 teaspoons of loose leaf green per day. I get some theanine from that, but unfortunately caffeine, too.

As for meditation, do you have any specific ideas of which types will yield the highest benefits in regards to reducing compulsive behavior? I'm thinking mindfulness, but mostly due to theory rather than scientific confirmation (which seems to be relatively lacking regarding meditation).

Edited by Solitude, 05 December 2009 - 02:13 AM.

[rwac]

Hmmm. Do you have "brain-fog" ?

You should try CDP-Choline.

It looks like you're ill with something, but it's not very clear what the something is.

What's your diet like ?
Do you think it could be a problem with sugar/carb metabolism ?
As in, skip carbs for a meal or two and see if you function better.

Have you tried a gluten-free diet ?

Is it possible you have an infection of some sort ? Viral, bacterial, etc

What's the rest of your regimen like ?
You should take Magnesium, D3, Omega-3

Sorry, lots of questions.

[Solitude]

As a first note, I'm still perfectly sharp in terms of general ability to function. I'm maintaining an A in all of my classes right now with only occasional use of piracetam and ALCAR, so I'm definitely not worried about my brain 'not working properly' in the more general sense. I'm not aware of any viral or fungal infections that I could look out for that would allow me to perform so well in my normal classes (and in everyday cognition), while having such a drastic effect on some behavioral patterns. Do you have any specific infections I should be wary of?

I've never actually taken any choline supplements, but I've had extended periods of eating 2-3 eggs a day, along with a large intake of nuts and veggies (such as broccoli) which are also relatively high in choline. The only thing I do notice is that I have a mildly better memory on those days, but fatigue comes quicker if I haven't slept much. So, I do get a fairly large amount of dietary omega 3s and magnesium, as well as occasional supplementation.

My diet is 'mostly good'. As in, I probably eat only a fraction of the sugar/carbs that is in the average American diet, but I will semi regularly eat a carby meal, or something with a bit of sugar. I do plan on changing this, though. Interestingly enough, a habit like this (ie, diet) is really quite easy for me to develop. I suppose I'll give gluten-free a shot while I'm at it. In terms of lifestyle, the only thing I feel that needs much work is consistency with exercise. I've always been excessively on-and-off.

I'll try going a day with very minimal carbs over the weekend and get back to you.

Edited by Solitude, 05 December 2009 - 02:48 AM.

[rwac]

As a first note, I'm still perfectly sharp in terms of general ability to function. I'm maintaining an A in all of my classes right now with only occasional use of piracetam and ALCAR, so I'm definitely not worried about my brain 'not working properly' in the more general sense. I'm not aware of any viral or fungal infections that I could look out for that would allow me to perform so well in my normal classes (and in everyday cognition), while having such a drastic effect on some behavioral patterns. Do you have any specific infections I should be wary of?

Yeah, I used to have very similar symptoms. I could think fine in terms of math problems, classes, etc, but I have trouble thinking on-my-feet so to speak.

I now believe that was an infection of some sort. Possibly bartonella.

[csrpj]

zoroaster, do you recommend any particular meditation guiding CDs?

[k10]

Piracetam helps the communication between the left and right side of the brain, may be a good thing to take before practice along with something like Alpha GPC for your choline source.

[Zoroaster]

No offense to RWAC but I think it's extremely unlikely that you have an infection, least of all a bacterial infection. And if you did the answer would be to get a blood culture and take antibiotics, not go on a gluten free diet. It's actually pretty common to have at least a few repetitive habitual behaviors, especially among driven individuals. I have several myself, including a few surrounding studying which have caused me more than a little bit of frustration.

As for the tea it wouldn't hurt to try toning it down or cutting it out. While it would be pretty uncommon to be so affected by the amount of caffeine you'd likely get in that much tea, some people are more sensitive than others. I occasionally use large amounts of caffeine and my OCD side definitely comes to the fore on those days. I don't know a lot about picamilon. Like you said there's just not as much info out there about it as there is for some of the other anxiolytics. I've tried it before, it seemed to work, but I definitely didn't like the affect as much as phenibut.

For performance anxiety I've found that nothing works better than beta-blockers. I also have problems with a very pronounced physical response to performance situations, regardless of my mental state. Beta-blockers simply cancel that response. No racing heart, no dry mouth or shaking knees. It's great. I have them prescribed legitimately for occasional heart arrhythmia.

I've tried both transcendental and mindfulness meditation. The medical world is getting really excited about mindfulness meditation lately. At our hospital doctors have been recommending it left and right, and it's used as firstline therapy for medical students complaining of anxiety or excessive stress. I prefer transcendental techniques, but maybe that's because it's what I started on. I think the methods of transcendental meditation are probably better for those with attention/distraction issues, but mindfulness meditation may make more sense for your situation, since it's less focused on clearing the mind and more focused on becoming more aware of and controlling your mind's natural state (that's not the best way to describe it but I couldn't think of a better phrase).

And I don't know of any good guided meditation CD's off hand. Our hospital has a site with a ton of well-produced guided meditation mp3's that I've used to good effect in the past, but it's password protected. Probably any well-reviewed CD would work. In general I don't like guided meditation as much simply because it takes longer. With enough practice a quick 10 minute, or even 5 minute session of individual meditation will work better than a 30 minute guided session. But it can definitely be a good way to start out.

[rwac]

No offense to RWAC but I think it's extremely unlikely that you have an infection, least of all a bacterial infection. And if you did the answer would be to get a blood culture and take antibiotics, not go on a gluten free diet.

None taken. I'm just throwing possibilities/suggestions out there.

[Solitude]

Piracetam helps the communication between the left and right side of the brain, may be a good thing to take before practice along with something like Alpha GPC for your choline source.

Alas, I do not respond to piracetam - I tried for several months, but the only benefit seems to be for sleep (which I still use it for sometimes)

Zoroaster,

I'll stick with the tea; I don't even notice the effects of caffeine after several cups of coffee, and I never drink coffee. It seems unlikely, then, that it has any effects that I am not noticing at the dose in tea.

I'll give beta blockers a try for bigger performances, but I still plan on desensitizing myself with smaller ones. I think at least a few students around here get some great benefits from them, though it's something that generally tends not to be discussed.

I guess mindfulness meditation seems like the most reliable option. I'm certainly don't expect much, but it's a start, I suppose. Along with the phenibut (if I can get hold of some, I still live at home, and it's difficult to explain mysterious packages) and bacopa.