Bullshit isotope measurements?
What is bullshit about isotope measurements? Do you know what they are and what they show?
Listen, I fucking understand the use of laser spectroscopy and other forms of measurement. Just because I do not have faith in the use of such measurements to make all encompassing determinations, does not mean I do not fucking know what they are. Stop being so arrogant and thinking you know, but I do not.
Isotopes, when used to measure the flow of nutrients through the human body, is determinable. Isotopes, when used to look for traces of foods or the signs such and such were consumed on bone fragments is very very sketchy IMO and should not be trusted.
Excellent, then you understand that they can roughly approximate the composition of the diet in terms of macro-nutrients. It makes arguing over whether legumes were consumed during the Paleolithic some what of a moot point, as animal products comprised the majority of caloric intake in the individuals that were studied. However, if you want to get technical about it, according to Wikipedia:
"The history of legumes is tied in closely with that of human civilization, appearing early in Asia, the Americas (the common Phaseolus bean in several varieties), and Europe (broad beans) by 6,000 BC, where they became a staple, essential for supplementing protein where there was not enough meat." [
source]
The earliest Neolithic or Archaic subsistence systems were based on the farming of domesticated grains complemented by hunting and the gathering of wild plants. Domestication of these grains seems to have occurred independently in the Near East (wheat and barley), Southeast Asia (rice), and Central America (maize), according to both the availability of wild progenitors (or assumed progenitors) and earliest archaeological evidence. Secondary crops such as legumes and gourds seem to have been domesticated either concurrently with the grains, as in the Tehuacan Valley in Mexico, or shortly thereafter, as in the Near East. Regardless, these secondary crops seem to have provided vital complementary nutrients, especially in the form of proteins (legumes), to the Neolithic/Archaic diet. Legumes also fix nitrogen in the soil, so crop rotation between grains and legumes can considerably enhance soil productivity. If, like Paleo-diet followers, you are trying to avoid consuming post-Paleolithic foods, then legumes would not be on the menu.
Study:
Chickpea domestication in the Neolithic Levant through the nutritional perspective"An alternative approach to the process of selection and domestication of grain crops in early history based on nutritional value is proposed. Selection by a long trial and error process among a number of wild large seeded legumes gave rise to a nutritionally superior domesticated chickpea among the selected "founder crops" of the Neolithic Near Eastern agriculture. We found considerably higher free tryptophan levels in cultivated stocks (44 desi and 29 kabuli types from 25 countries; 1.10 mg/g seed dry weight), compared with the wild progenitor Cicer reticulatum (15 accessions; 0.33 mg/g seed dry weight). Dietary tryptophan determines brain serotonin synthesis, which in turn affects certain brain functions and human behaviour. We suggest that these nutritive facts may explain the decision of prehistoric farmers to choose this rare species and struggle to keep such an agronomically complicated crop under domestication."Study:
Vicia peregrina: an edible early Neolithic legume "We identified hundreds of Vicia peregrina (rambling vetch) seeds from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A site of Netiv Hagdud, an uncommon archaeobotanical find. The hilum, radicle and the depression under the lens (chalaza) are seen in several of the charred seeds lacking a testa. The rambling vetch and lentil are the prevailing legume seeds found at the site. Rambling vetch seeds contain small amounts of toxic compounds. The residents of Netiv Hagdud could have used tools found at the site for peeling, soaking and probably cooking the seeds, procedures that remove or reduce these toxic components. Mixing the vetch with cereals can also reduce the toxicity by dilution. We suggest that the rambling vetch seed could have been collected in its wild habitat or brought from cultivated wild barley fields. It seems that these unusual finds, which have not been observed in later local sites, are evidence that the start of plant domestication was a trial and error cultivation process. Thus the Netiv Hagdud rambling vetch remains represent the cultivation of a Near Eastern crop plant that was finally abandoned and did not become domesticated."
Study:
The legumes: the earliest domesticated plants in the Near East?Text:
Legumes in human nutritionStudy:
Domestication of Pulses in the Old World, Legumes were companions of wheat and barley when agriculture began in the Near East "This article reviews the available information on the place of origin and time of domestication of the cultivated pea (Pisum sativum), lentil (Lens culinaris), broad bean (Vicia faba), bitter vetch (V. ervilia), and chickpea (Cicer arietinum). On the basis of (i) an examination and evaluation of archeological remains and (ii) an identification of the wild progenitors and delimitation of their geographic distribution, it was concluded that pea and lentil should be regarded as founder crops of Old World Neolithic agriculture. Most probably they were domesticated, in the Near East, simultaneously with wheats and barley (certainly not later than the sixth millennium B.C.). Bitter vetch shows a similar mode of origin. The evidence on the broad bean and the chickpea is much more fragmentary and the wild progenitors of these legumes are yet not satisfactorily identified. But also these two pulses emerge as important food elements in Bronze Age cultures of the Near East and Europe."TheFountain, I think a valid argument can be made surrounding the exclusion of legumes from the diet as being unnecessary or perhaps not conducive to longevity. However, you are approaching the topic incorrectly. The foods consumed during the Paleolithic are generally well understood to have varied from region to region, as well as seasonally, so making blanket statements about the macro-nutrient composition of the best "evolutionary" diet is difficult. Isotope studies done on the select individuals from the European region do indicate a high protein and fat diet. Furthermore, all diets from that time period did exclude modern derivatives developed in the Neolithic. That said, even if a rough approximation can be made, how do we know this is the best diet for longevity? Why exclude legumes on the basis of being strictly from the Neolithic, when almost all plant and animal species have been bred / altered significantly through domestication processes?
I would agree, based on preliminary anecdotal evidence and
some limited clinical evidence, that the Paleolithic diet does seem to optimize bio-markers for survival and reproduction. It should also be noted that we have not seen many (any?) long lived populations on such a diet. While the Paleolithic diet might be another avenue to longevity, it just hasn't been proven yet. Where as many traditional long lived populations are known to have consumed legumes i.e Sardinian and Okinawan populations. Following such a restricted regimen is an experiment, or gamble, just like how many individuals on these forums take supplements with scant evidence in their favor. While you may have decided to take a more conservative approach to nutrition, consuming foods closer to those long lived populations, we should not devalue the contribution of others by following alternative routes of nutrition such as the Paleolithic diet. Human metabolism is highly adaptable, and we may find that longevity (or more accurately, a squaring of the mortality curve) can be achieved through a variety of different conduits.
Personally, I don't see legumes as a nutritionally necessary component of human diet, they do not confer the same benefits as leafy greens such as kale, spinach, or chard. Perhaps they can be used for protein if one is excluding meat / dairy? At any rate, legumes don't agree with my stomach either. So I exclude them. I don't see that as hurting my longevity.
Edited by Skotkonung, 14 December 2009 - 06:33 PM.