34 replies to this topic

[EmbraceUnity]

I just wanted to get some critiques on my current regimen, and some advice on some recent additions.

I am a 22 year old male. I am 6' 0" and weigh 150 pounds.

Since I am young, I figure that my priorities shouldn't be so longevity focused. I should take it easy on some of the riskier, more expensive, and longer term supps. Thus I don't take much resveratrol, and steer clear of a lot of newer stuff. I have foregone caloric restriction and intermittent fasting. Having proper blood sugar is necessary for proper brain functioning, motivation, and feeling good.

I am vegetarian but not super strict, and much of my regimen is meant to compliment/compensate for that. I also suffer some mild auto-immune disorders like esophagitis, hayfever, and acne.... all of which have been nearly eliminated by healthy lifestyle choices. I am also trying to prevent male pattern baldness before it starts.

I work from home so I can manage this ridiculous regimen, but would like to consolidate the timing of the supps and eliminate any supps that don't give a good bang for the buck. If I have to spend too much time or money, that won't make me feel very good at all.


Upon Waking
---------------
LEF's Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer (4 capsules)
Sometimes Piracetam + DMAE
Brush teeth with TheraBreath toothpaste or Life Extension Toothpaste
Floss


...Wait 15 minutes or so


Breakfast
-------------------
15 grams of 88% cocoa
A bowl of steel cut oats, muesli, or some organicy low-sugar whole grain cereal with Unsweetened Almond Milk, stevia, and cinnamon
Green Tea


With Breakfast
-----------------
LEF Mix (3 tablets)
Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract (1 capsule)
TMG 500mg (1 or 2 tablets)
LEF Mega EPA/DHA (2 Capsules)
LEF DNA Protection Formula (1 capsule)
LEF Super Saw Palmetto (1 Capsule)


About a half hour before lunch
------------------------------------
NOW Taurine 1000mg (1 capsule)
LEF Vitamin C + Dihydroquercetin (1 tablet)
NOW Amla (1 Capsule)
Biosil (5 or 6 droplets)


With Lunch
-------
LEF Triple Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract
LEF Pomegranate/Blueberry/Cocoa (1 capsule)
Green Tea

.....


Right Before Dinner
----------------------
LEF Mix (3 tablets)
LEF Mega EPA/DHA (2 capsules)
LEF Vitamin D 1000mg (1 capsule)
LEF Super Booster (1 capsule every other day)
LEF DNA Protection Formula (1 capsule)
A swig of Olive oil or MCT oil mmmm


After Dinner
--------------
If the meal was heavy and/or on the unhealthy side I take the following
NOW Resveratrol 200mg (1 capsule)
LEF Resveratrol + Quercetin (1 capsule)



Before Strength Training
----------------------------
NOW BCAAs (1 heaping tablespoon)


After Strength Training
--------------------------
Jarrow Creatine (5mg)
A banana or other fruit
Then I down a bunch of protein of some sort.... usually whey, but sometimes nuts, beans, quinoa, or whatever


Before Cardio (different day than strength)
----------------
Veggie latkes and Lite Salt (electrolytes!)
A Banana or other fruit
Sometimes Astaxanthin (is this a good idea?)


After Workout
----------------
Shower with Jason Shampoo or Nizoral Shampoo.... no soap
Baking Soda as deodorant
LEF Rejuvenex Skin Cream


Before sleep
---------------
Tryptophan 1000mg
Biotene Mouthwash


Adding (when should I take these?)
--------
LEF Methylcobalmin 1mg sublingual
LEF L-Methylfolate
LEF Advanced Oral Hygiene (oral probiotics w00t!)


Thinking of Adding
---------------------
Melatonin
Pyncogenol
Better Skin Cream


Thinking of Removing:
--------------------------
LEF Super Saw Palmetto
Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract (replace with cheaper garlic)

Edited by progressive, 12 December 2009 - 01:00 PM.

[DairyProducts]

The general sense I have from reading these forums is that bananas are probably one of the least beneficial fruits. Sorry no links, but I'd try berries or apples instead.

[NDM]

How did you get the idea that acne is an auto-immune disorder?!

[kismet]

I am not sure hayfever counts as bona fide auto-immunity, either (or type 1 hypersensitivities in general). If anything acne is closer to true auto-immunity, as P. acnes is part of the "normal flora" and an overshooting reaction to it forms part of the acne complex. AFAIK failure of self-tolerance is at the core of auto-immunity, hence type 2, most type 3 and many type 4 hypersensitivities count as auto-immunity.

[niner]

If the meal was heavy and/or on the unhealthy side I take the following
NOW Resveratrol 200mg (1 capsule)
LEF Resveratrol + Quercetin (1 capsule)

Is the idea here to suppress the post-prandial glucose spike? I suppose resveratrol would do that, although I think it would take a higher dose. You'd probably have better luck with pycnogenol if that's in fact the goal. I'm not sure what you mean by "heavy"; I think of that as being high lipid. If so, I don't think resveratrol would do much in an acute sense.

15 grams of cocoa is kind of a lot; I worry about oxalate content primarily, iron and possibly other metals also. Is it non-alkalized? If not you lose a lot of the beneficial polyphenols.

Doesn't seem like much D. Have you done your 25-OH-D3 levels?

Really seems pretty good, but it's kind of LEF-heavy, and thus pretty pricey I would think. You could at least go for a cheaper fish oil; neither consumer reports nor consumer labs has ever found a bad one.

Saw Palmetto scares me a little...

[nameless]

15 grams of cocoa is kind of a lot; I worry about oxalate content primarily, iron and possibly other metals also. Is it non-alkalized? If not you lose a lot of the beneficial polyphenols.

Is 15 grams really a lot? It's only like 2 squares of a decent dark chocolate bar, so I never really considered it a high amount. *wonders*

Regimen-wise, it seems like too much folic acid to me (and too much LEF Multi, which I'm not so fond of anyway). Too high in Bs, alpha only E, etc. And too much selenium, especially when including the super booster.

I don't think you really need saw palmetto at 22 years old.

[EmbraceUnity]

I am not sure hayfever counts as bona fide auto-immunity, either (or type 1 hypersensitivities in general). If anything acne is closer to true auto-immunity, as P. acnes is part of the "normal flora" and an overshooting reaction to it forms part of the acne complex. AFAIK failure of self-tolerance is at the core of auto-immunity, hence type 2, most type 3 and many type 4 hypersensitivities count as auto-immunity.

Yes, you are correct, hayfever is just an allergy and not really auto-immune. I just mean to say that I suffered from inflammation of all sorts in the past. Even gingivitis. All of these things were cured relatively easily with lifestyle changes.

[EmbraceUnity]

The general sense I have from reading these forums is that bananas are probably one of the least beneficial fruits. Sorry no links, but I'd try berries or apples instead.

They aren't too bad. I think Matt eats em. Since I take so many supps, I'm not really worried about the lack of nutrients. I take them because I figure carbs would be good before workouts. Some people, especially extreme endurance people, try to work out in a carb-depleted state. Yet, I don't share the goals of a competitive athlete. I just wanna look good and feel good.

Of course I think even with that goal my workout regimen could use some work. Bananas are probably sub-optimal for my goal. More berries and apples is a good idea. I also like kiwis. I'd rather avoid Waxy Maize Starch or some such thing.

Also, to be honest, it probably isn't very sustainable to ship exotic fruits from Guatemala. So replacing this is probably a good idea for that alone.

Edited by progressive, 13 December 2009 - 06:32 AM.

[EmbraceUnity]

If the meal was heavy and/or on the unhealthy side I take the following
NOW Resveratrol 200mg (1 capsule)
LEF Resveratrol + Quercetin (1 capsule)

Is the idea here to suppress the post-prandial glucose spike? I suppose resveratrol would do that, although I think it would take a higher dose. You'd probably have better luck with pycnogenol if that's in fact the goal. I'm not sure what you mean by "heavy"; I think of that as being high lipid. If so, I don't think resveratrol would do much in an acute sense.

15 grams of cocoa is kind of a lot; I worry about oxalate content primarily, iron and possibly other metals also. Is it non-alkalized? If not you lose a lot of the beneficial polyphenols.

Doesn't seem like much D. Have you done your 25-OH-D3 levels?

Really seems pretty good, but it's kind of LEF-heavy, and thus pretty pricey I would think. You could at least go for a cheaper fish oil; neither consumer reports nor consumer labs has ever found a bad one.

Saw Palmetto scares me a little...

As a vegetarian, my iron intake is on the low side, but I am not deficient... probably because all the vitamin C and spinach.

I only buy non-alkalized cocoa... mostly Endangered Species brand 88%.

I recently had all my bloodwork done, but I neglected to include Vitamin D levels since it cost extra and I figured I was ok. Now all the sudden I hear that even people who are supplementing have low levels, so I think you are right to suggest this. I'll try to get this done soon.

I agree it is LEF heavy.... since they're so darn convenient. The prices usually aren't too bad though. The Super Omega 3 formula that they have is definitely way too expensive, especially if not on sale. But if you get the "Mega EPA/DHA" during one of their sales, it can have a better price per serving than even those big liquid fish oil bottles. I doubt I will find the same price again, so my next batch will probably be sourced somewhere else.

Saw palmetto kinda scares me too, but I haven't researched it extensively. Some people are definitely spreading Teh Fear about it. I am way too ignorant on the subject to have an informed opinion. Yet, I already have a bunch of bottles that I bought before I started having second thoughts. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can help me. Should I just toss em?

Edited by progressive, 13 December 2009 - 06:17 AM.

[EmbraceUnity]

15 grams of cocoa is kind of a lot; I worry about oxalate content primarily, iron and possibly other metals also. Is it non-alkalized? If not you lose a lot of the beneficial polyphenols.

Is 15 grams really a lot? It's only like 2 squares of a decent dark chocolate bar, so I never really considered it a high amount. *wonders*

Regimen-wise, it seems like too much folic acid to me (and too much LEF Multi, which I'm not so fond of anyway). Too high in Bs, alpha only E, etc. And too much selenium, especially when including the super booster.

I don't think you really need saw palmetto at 22 years old.

I heard a lot of people would take 40g per day, and my cocoa powder says 26g is considered one serving. So 15 grams should be just over half a serving..

The folic acid is one of the things I was worried about... especially with the new L-Methylfolate (which I will only take on days that I'm not doing the "super booster"). The Super Booster is what really adds so much folic acid and selenium. LEF sent me tons of studies on folate and selenium when I inquired about those. But now that you mention it, to stay on the safe (and cheap) side, I think I'll dump the Super Booster and replace it with some extra gamma tocopherol and tocotrienols.

As for saw palmetto, my grandpa who I look a lot like, was bald by 30. I am starting to notice a receding hairline... not bad, but noticeable. I figure Saw Palmetto is safer than minodoxil, but that probably isn't saying much. John Stossel thinks it is junk, which automatically makes me think highly of it, but I must remember that reverse stupidity isn't intelligence.

I heard green tea and caffeine are good for hair loss prevention. I'm considering applying some topically to my scalp somehow. Looking for other cheap, non-toxic ideas like that.

Edited by progressive, 13 December 2009 - 06:20 AM.

[niner]

I only buy non-alkalized cocoa... mostly Endangered Species brand 88%.

Oh, you mean chocolate.. I was thinking you were talking about powdered cocoa, in which case 15 grams would be kind of a lot. It's not much if you're talking chocolate though.

[EmbraceUnity]

I only buy non-alkalized cocoa... mostly Endangered Species brand 88%.

Oh, you mean chocolate.. I was thinking you were talking about powdered cocoa, in which case 15 grams would be kind of a lot. It's not much if you're talking chocolate though.

I do occasionally make hot cocoa with 100% raw powdered cocoa, and at one point I was having it every day in addition to the 15g of chocolate bar... since I figured I was only having half a serving. I only have hot cocoa now when I run out of the bars. For hot cocoa I was doing 3 heaping teaspoons, which was the suggested serving size. I will use only one from now on.

By the way, I don't remember oxalate being the problem. I thought lead was the problem. (that makes it so much better, eh)

Edited by progressive, 13 December 2009 - 06:22 AM.

[niner]

I only buy non-alkalized cocoa... mostly Endangered Species brand 88%.

Oh, you mean chocolate.. I was thinking you were talking about powdered cocoa, in which case 15 grams would be kind of a lot. It's not much if you're talking chocolate though.

I do occasionally make hot cocoa with 100% raw powdered cocoa, and at one point I was having it every day in addition to the 15g of chocolate bar... since I figured I was only having half a serving. I only have hot cocoa now when I run out of the bars. For hot cocoa I was doing 3 heaping teaspoons. I will use only one from now on.

By the way, I don't remember oxalate being the problem. I thought lead was the problem. (that makes it so much better, eh)

Lead (and iron) are problems, though the lead should at least be monitored and in theory they wouldn't sell it if it was to high. Practice may be another case, though. The oxalate is what I suspect is responsible for the impact on BMD in post-menopausal females who ate the most chocolate in an epidemiological study. (There's a thread here somewhere...) I was concerned about it because I'm already osteopenic, and used to drink a lot of cocoa (in water, non-alkalized). I've cut back, but still drink a cup or two pretty regularly. I only use about a teaspoon and a half, or so. I should weigh it sometime. It doesn't feel like much.

[EmbraceUnity]

I was thinking of moving the Taurine and Biosil to when I first wake up. Of course since Piracetam is technically an amino acid, and I should probably not take that at the same time (I don't usually take it anyways).

There shouldn't be any reason those would interfere with the Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer (Carnosine, Carnitine, Lipoic Acid, P5P, and Benfotiamine) .... is that correct? Carnosine is related to the amino acid beta alanine, and I mostly hope taurine doesn't interfere with it.

Then I could take the vitamin C and amla with breakfast. That would eliminate one of my troublesome pill times.

Edited by progressive, 13 December 2009 - 08:30 AM.

[EmbraceUnity]

Ok, after researching I have made the following changes. I wasn't able to reduce the number of times that I take vitamins, but I was able to make the times more sensible, and have all of them revolve around things that make sense (waking up, meal times, after brushing teeth, and before bed).

The consensus on imminst seems to be that taurine doesn't need to be taken on an empty stomach, and might actually be better with a meal. Same with Biosil. I moved them to lunchtime.

I am now decided that after I run out of the Super Booster I wont be taking it anymore. I will try to eat more spinach and kale to make up for the reduced Vitamin K.

I added Gamma Tocopherol and Tocotrienols to make up for the lost Super Booster

To save money I am dumping the Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer. Benfotiamine doesn't seem that helpful for healthy people with normal blood sugar. To replace carnosine, which is expensive, I am adding Beta Alanine and Histidine before each meal. I am taking a separate Acetyl-L Carnitine Arginate in the morning, and moved my vitamin C to the morning (supposedly works well with carnitine).

I added the 1mg Methylcobalmin lozenge to my morning routine

To save money I replaced the LEF DNA Formula with NOW Curcumin and NOW Chlorophyll, and take it during breakfast and dinner. Since the DNA Formula had Broccoli extract, and I am concerned about estrogen, I am taking LEF's Cruciferous Vegetable Extract during lunch. Three cheers for Di-indolyl-methane!

I am going to stop taking Saw Palmetto. Nizoral and DIM should be enough, and Saw Palmetto's evidence is thin and safety is speculative.

I decided not to add L-Methylfolate.

I am switching my choline source from DMAE to citicoline

I added LEF Brite Eyes III to my daily hygiene routine

I reduced my Omega 3 to once per day since my PUFA intake is low, but I'm willing to change back if there is a good reason.

I am re-adding melatonin at night, but dropped the dosage.

I'm now considering taking some pre-cardio amino acids... maybe tyrosine... thoughts?

Edited by progressive, 15 December 2009 - 11:30 AM.

[EmbraceUnity]

New regimen, as described above.


Upon Waking
---------------
Jarrow Acetyl L-Carnitine Arginate 500 mg
Jarrow Methyl B-12, 1000 mcg
LEF Vitamin C + Dihydroquercetin (1 tablet)
NOW Amla (1 Capsule)
Sometimes Piracetam 800mg and Citicoline 250mg


...Wait 15-30 minutes


Before Breakfast
--------------------
Twinlab L-Histidine 500 mg
NOW Beta-Alanine 500mg


Breakfast
-------------------
15 grams of 88% cocoa
A bowl of steel cut oats, muesli, or some organicy low-sugar whole grain cereal with Unsweetened Almond Milk, stevia, and cinnamon
Green Tea


With Breakfast
-----------------
LEF Mix (3 tablets)
Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract (1 capsule)
TMG 500mg (2 tablets)
NOW Curcumin 665mg
NOW Chlorophyll 100 mg


After Breakfast
----------------
Brush teeth with TheraBreath toothpaste or Life Extension Toothpaste
Floss
LEF Advanced Oral Hygiene (I lozenge)
LEF Brite Eyes III (1 drop per eye)


After Brushing
-------------------
Country Life P5P 50mg


Before Lunch
--------------------
Twinlab L-Histidine 500 mg
NOW Beta-Alanine 500mg

With Lunch
-------
NOW Taurine 1000mg (1 capsule)
LEF Triple Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract
LEF Pomegranate/Blueberry/Cocoa (1 capsule)
LEF Mega EPA/DHA (2 capsules)
Biosil (5 or 6 droplets)
Green Tea


Before Dinner
-----------------
Twinlab L-Histidine 500 mg
NOW Beta-Alanine 500mg

With Dinner
----------------------
A swig of Olive oil or MCT oil mmmm
LEF Mix (3 tablets)
LEF Vitamin D 1000mg (1 capsule)
LEF Gamma E Tocopherol/Tocotrienol (1 capsule)
NOW Curcumin 665mg
NOW Chlorophyll 100 mg


After Dinner
--------------
If the meal was heavy and/or on the unhealthy side I take the following
NOW Resveratrol 200mg (1 capsule)
LEF Resveratrol + Quercetin (1 capsule)


Before Strength Training
----------------------------
NOW BCAAs (1 heaping tablespoon)


After Strength Training
--------------------------
Jarrow Creatine (5mg)
A banana or other fruit
Then I down a bunch of protein of some sort.... usually whey, but sometimes nuts, beans, quinoa, etc


Before Cardio (different day than strength)
----------------
Veggie latkes and Lite Salt (electrolytes!)
A Banana or other fruit
Source Naturals Astaxanthin 2mg


After Workout
----------------
Shower with Jason Shampoo or Nizoral Shampoo.... no soap
Baking Soda as deodorant
LEF Rejuvenex Skin Cream


Before sleep
---------------
Tryptophan 1000mg
Melatonin 300mcg
Biotene Mouthwash

Edited by progressive, 15 December 2009 - 11:29 AM.

[kismet]

I'd drop resveratrol, curcumin, all supplemental Es, vit C and garlic extract. Generally trade food extracts for real foods. AFAIK P5P is taken with food, not at an empty stomach and at several doses a day. TMG is dangerous as it likely raises LDL.  Methyl B-12 is said to be good for neuroprotection? Anyone got some handy cites?

Resveratrol is not a good postprandial supplement... I'd use red wine, calcium+magnesium, nuts & berries, cholorphyll+IP6 potentially for heme-iron (N/A in your case), etc

...too many brand names I don't get & I think you're making LEF very happy... (I do suggest cutting down on LEF products, no they're not cheap at all, and donating to the Mfoundation and sens.org and imminst)

EDIT: and maybe cites for citicoline which I wanted to look into. I am in a lazy mood today...

Edited by kismet, 15 December 2009 - 03:50 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

I'd drop resveratrol, curcumin, all supplemental Es, vit C and garlic extract. Generally trade food extracts for real foods. AFAIK P5P is taken with food, not at an empty stomach and at several doses a day. TMG is dangerous as it likely raises LDL.  Methyl B-12 is said to be good for neuroprotection? Anyone got some handy cites?

Resveratrol is not a good postprandial supplement... I'd use red wine, calcium+magnesium, nuts & berries, cholorphyll+IP6 potentially for heme-iron (N/A in your case), etc

...too many brand names I don't get & I think you're making LEF very happy... (I do suggest cutting down on LEF products, no they're not cheap at all, and donating to the Mfoundation and sens.org and imminst)

EDIT: and maybe cites for citicoline which I wanted to look into. I am in a lazy mood today...

I do like indian food, but I don't think I could get enough turmeric in my normal diet. The only way is if I swallow a teaspoon straight every day.... I know some people here do that, and I will consider it.

A lot of this stuff is still in there because I just happen to have a bunch left. Resveratrol might not be an optimal postprandial supp, but I am guessing I could finish off what I have.

I don't think red wine would do much of anything. The only substantial components are sugar and alcohol, neither of which I need.

My LEF Mix already has a decent amount of calcium and magnesium, but I do have extra yummy walgreens brand for whenever I need it.

You are correct that I use a lot of LEF stuff. This was partly because when I first started I didn't trust myself to formulate a decent regimen, and I also suffer from laziness. It is convenient to buy from one place and get all my supps heaped into big formulas, but probably not optimal from a health or monetary perspective.

Nowadays I don't spend a ridiculous amount on supps. At one point I certainly was, but now I'm only taking 2/3rds dose of the Mix, and I dropped the Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer and Super Booster. I only buy during their super sales, and usually in bulk, so the prices are the same or better than competitors.

Some of the LEF stuff.... like the Brite Eyes formula are the cheapest on the market (Ortho-Eyes is the same thing except harder to find and more expensive), and other stuff is exclusive to LEF such as the Advanced Oral Hygiene oral probiotic. So there can be good reasons to order from them.

Donating to life extension research is a good idea, if done correctly. Though I have other philanthropic priorities which supersede this. Namely, In Vitro Meat and Open Source.

[EmbraceUnity]

AFAIK P5P is taken with food, not at an empty stomach and at several doses a day.

The LEF Mix has P5P. But, I also take it 15 minutes after breakfast because of a tip from Michael Rae's regimen thread

His citations were the following:

17. Bioavailability of pyridoxal phosphate from enteric-coated tablets. I. Apparent critical dissolution pH and bioavailability of commercial products in humans. Kaniwa N, Ogata H, Aoyagi N, Koibuchi M, Shibazaki T, Ejima A, Takanashi S, Kamiyama H, Suzuki H, Hinohara Y, et al. Chem Pharm Bull (Tokyo). 1985 Sep;33(9):4045-9. No abstract available. PMID: 4092300 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

18. Variability in absorption lag time of pyridoxal phosphate under fasting and pre- and post-meal conditions. Takahashi H, Ogata H, Nagai N, Sugito K, Shimamura H. Biopharm Drug Dispos. 1994 Aug;15(6):505-17. PMID: 7993988 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by progressive, 15 December 2009 - 06:35 PM.

[kismet]

I don't think red wine would do much of anything. The only substantial components are sugar and alcohol, neither of which I need.

Sugar, water, alcohol and the forgotten wine polyphenols; the latter two are the actual magic ingridients -- see the same thread (or the studies therein). Just a suggestion as to relatively proven (postprandial) supps compared to resvrtatrol. 

[EmbraceUnity]

I don't think red wine would do much of anything. The only substantial components are sugar and alcohol, neither of which I need.

Sugar, water, alcohol and the forgotten wine polyphenols; the latter two are the actual magic ingridients -- see the same thread (or the studies therein). Just a suggestion as to relatively proven (postprandial) supps compared to resvrtatrol. 

I'm pretty opposed to alcohol as a rule of thumb, and but the wine extract Michael uses looks interesting and not terribly priced. For now I think I should move the Pommegranate/Blueberry extract to after my meal. Thanks for the tip.

[Sillewater]

I'd drop resveratrol, curcumin, all supplemental Es, vit C and garlic extract. Generally trade food extracts for real foods. AFAIK P5P is taken with food, not at an empty stomach and at several doses a day. TMG is dangerous as it likely raises LDL.  Methyl B-12 is said to be good for neuroprotection? Anyone got some handy cites?

Resveratrol is not a good postprandial supplement... I'd use red wine, calcium+magnesium, nuts & berries, cholorphyll+IP6 potentially for heme-iron (N/A in your case), etc

...too many brand names I don't get & I think you're making LEF very happy... (I do suggest cutting down on LEF products, no they're not cheap at all, and donating to the Mfoundation and sens.org and imminst)

EDIT: and maybe cites for citicoline which I wanted to look into. I am in a lazy mood today...

Why is Calcium+Magnesium a good postprandial supplements? Does chlorophyll bind iron?

[kismet]

Why is Calcium+Magnesium a good postprandial supplements?

Reduced absorption of phosphate, although, in the end it's not as simple as just popping 2 pills (how much to take of each? which salts? which meals? how much Pi do you get from diet and each meal to begin with? etc. Vegetarians generally get less) Serum phosphate and, by extension, high phosphate meals and intakes are teh devil.

Does chlorophyll bind iron?

IIRC, that's what I heard. IAC the chlorophyll molecule is structurally very similar to heme, but other mechanisms may be involved. But as long you're not actually trying to design a postprandial supp those mechanistic musings are not *that* important. Just eat those greens..

Edited by kismet, 16 December 2009 - 02:45 PM.

[VespeneGas]

Reduced absorption of phosphate, although, in the end it's not as simple as just popping 2 pills (how much to take of each? which salts? which meals? how much Pi do you get from diet and each meal to begin with? etc. Vegetarians generally get less) Serum phosphate and, by extension, high phosphate meals and intakes are teh devil.

I hope Michael doesn't mind if I quote him, from the CR mailing list:

"Second, as documented a zillion times, when one factors out saturated fat content, total protein intake is neutral or protective against CVD, and vegetable protein is clearly protective. Again, read Walford, BT120YD, "The Nature of Evidence": actual outcomes trump mechanistic speculation ("animal protein is high in P; high serum P is associated with CVD; therefore, more animal protein will increase CVD risk")... Yes: to the extent that P may be a CVD risk factor, it's SERUM P that would be a useful surrogate; track that before watching dietary P too much, and target the RIGHT dietary P if you find dietary adjustment necessary."

As for histidine, throw it out. Supplemental beta alanine alone increases muscle carnosine, may increase brain carnosine, and is the rate limiting amino for carnosine synthase. Histidine supplementation is not only unnecessary, but probably a bad idea (thanks to krillin for this study):

Basic Clin Pharmacol Toxicol. 2005 May;96(5):352-60.
Antioxidant properties of carnosine re-evaluated with oxidizing systems involving iron and copper ions.
Mozdzan M, Szemraj J, Rysz J, Nowak D.
Department of Experimental and Clinical Physiology, Medical University of Lodz, 6/8 Mazowiecka St, 92-215 Lodz, Poland.

Carnosine has antioxidant properties and is efficient in the treatment of chemically-induced inflammatory lesions in animals. However, some studies question its biological significance as antioxidant and show lack of protection and even pro-oxidant effect of carnosine in systems containing nickel and iron ions. The ability of carnosine to: (1) reduce Fe(3+) into Fe(2+) ions; (2) protect deoxyribose from oxidation by Fe(2+)-, Fe(3+)-, and Cu(2+)-H(2)O(2)-EDTA systems; (3) protect DNA from damage caused by Cu(2+)-, and Fe(2+)-H(2)O(2)-ascorbate systems; (4) inhibit HClO- and H(2)O(2)-peroxidase-induced luminol dependent chemiluminescence was tested in vitro. At concentration 10 mM carnosine reduced 16.6+/-0.5 nmoles of Fe(3+) into Fe(2+) ions during 20 min. incubation and added to plasma significantly increased its ferric reducing ability. Inhibition of deoxyribose oxidation by 10 mM carnosine reached 56+/-5, 40+/-11 and 30+/-11% for systems containing Fe(2+), Fe(3+) and Cu(2+) ions, respectively. The damage to DNA was decreased by 84+/-9 and 61+/-14% when Cu(2+)-, and Fe(2+)-H(2)O(2)-ascorbate systems were applied. Combination of 10 mM histidine with alanine or histidine alone (but not alanine) enhanced 1.3 and 2.3 times (P<0.05) the DNA damage induced by Fe(2+)-H(2)O(2)-ascorbate. These amino acids added to 10 mM carnosine decreased 3.1-fold (P<0.05) its protective effect on DNA. Carnosine at 10 and 20 mM decreased by more than 90% light emission from both chemiluminescent systems. It is concluded that carnosine has significant antioxidant activity especially in the presence of transition metal ions. However, hydrolysis of carnosine with subsequent histidine release may be responsible for some pro-oxidant effects.

PMID: 15853927

[kismet]

"Second, as documented a zillion times, when one factors out saturated fat content, total protein intake is neutral or protective against CVD, and vegetable protein is clearly protective. Again, read Walford, BT120YD, "The Nature of Evidence": actual outcomes trump mechanistic speculation ("animal protein is high in P; high serum P is associated with CVD; therefore, more animal protein will increase CVD risk")... Yes: to the extent that P may be a CVD risk factor, it's SERUM P that would be a useful surrogate; track that before watching dietary P too much, and target the RIGHT dietary P if you find dietary adjustment necessary."

I have read the literature on the topic and MR's post(s), but I don't see no contradiction there. In the end the only practical way to lower serum P (if elevated) is to lower dietary P (absorption or total intake). I am not sure which part of my quick 'n dirty summary reads contradictory -- other than the fact that I am much more opiniated and propose a much more aggressive stance as to P-reduction and recent evidence hasn't let me down. A vegetarian CRON diet is naturally much, much lower in bioavailable phosphate (and may possibly benefit from Pi effects on bone!) so that kind of disposes of that problem (ad lib less so, omnivorous even less).

Originally my point just was that a dozen of things are better postprandially than resveratrol, as there's (more or less) actual science behind many of those.

Edited by kismet, 16 December 2009 - 07:57 PM.

[Sillewater]

Are there any other good post-prandial supplements you have come across Kismet?

Based on CRON-O-Meter I get on average 1200mg of Pi. On some days when I only eat vegetarian it is much much lower. I guess I'll move my magnesium supplement to my meatiest meal.

[niner]

Are there any other good post-prandial supplements you have come across Kismet?

Based on CRON-O-Meter I get on average 1200mg of Pi. On some days when I only eat vegetarian it is much much lower. I guess I'll move my magnesium supplement to my meatiest meal.

Pycnogenol sounds pretty good. Here is a bit from the (free) text of a brief report of a study of pycnogenol in T2DM.

Fasting blood glucose was lowered dose dependently until a dose of 200 mg Pycnogenol was administered. Increasing the dose from 200 to 300 mg did not further decrease blood glucose. Compared with baseline, 100–300 mg lowered fasting glucose significantly from 8.64 ± 0.93 to 7.54 ± 1.64 mmol/l (P < 0.05). Fifty milligrams of Pycnogenol lowered postprandial glucose significantly from 12.47 ± 1.06 to 11.16 ± 2.11 mmol/l (P < 0.05). Maximum decrease of postprandial glucose was observed with 200 mg to 10.07 ± 2.69 mmol/l; 300 mg had no stronger effect.

The following abstract speaks to the mechanism of the glucose-lowering effect:

Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2007 Jul;77(1):41-6. Epub 2006 Nov 13.
Oligomeric procyanidins of French maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) effectively inhibit alpha-glucosidase.

Schäfer A, Högger P.

Universität Würzburg, Institut für Pharmazie und Lebensmittelchemie, Am Hubland, Würzburg, Germany.

The standardized maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) was reported to exert clinical anti-diabetic effects after peroral intake. However, an increased insulin secretion was not observed after administration of the extract to patients. Our aim was to elucidate whether the described clinical effects of Pycnogenol are related to inhibition of alpha-glucosidase. Therefore, we analyzed the inhibitory activity of Pycnogenol, green tea extract and acarbose towards alpha-glucosidase. Furthermore, we explored different fractions of Pycnogenol containing compounds of diverse molecular masses from polyphenolic monomers, dimers and higher oligomers to uncover which components exhibited the most pronounced inhibitory activity. We found that Pycnogenol exhibited the most potent inhibition (IC(50) about 5 microg/mL) on alpha-glucosidase compared to green tea extract (IC(50) about 20 microg/mL) and acarbose (IC(50) about 1mg/mL). The inhibitory action of Pycnogenol was stronger in extract fractions containing higher procyanidin oligomers. The results obtained assign a novel, local effect to oligomeric procyanidins and contribute to the explanation of glucose-lowering effects of Pycnogenol observed in clinical trials with diabetic patients.

PMID: 17098323

[EmbraceUnity]

As for histidine, throw it out. Supplemental beta alanine alone increases muscle carnosine, may increase brain carnosine, and is the rate limiting amino for carnosine synthase. Histidine supplementation is not only unnecessary, but probably a bad idea (thanks to krillin for this study):

I just took a gram or so of Beta Alanine and have some tingling in my ears. I can see why people have found that annoying. Are you sure there is never a use for histidine?

[EmbraceUnity]

Why is Calcium+Magnesium a good postprandial supplements?

Reduced absorption of phosphate, although, in the end it's not as simple as just popping 2 pills (how much to take of each? which salts? which meals? how much Pi do you get from diet and each meal to begin with? etc. Vegetarians generally get less) Serum phosphate and, by extension, high phosphate meals and intakes are teh devil.

My serum phosphorous is 4.1 mg/dL which seems to be on the high end of the reference interval. I suppose that means I should try to lower it.

I am curious though as to why high phosphorous is bad. I read that it is an indicator of potentially bad things, but that seems more like correlation than causation.

[RighteousReason]

Interesting regimen, you gave me a couple of ideas. My regimen is currently under heavy construction... I will update my thread soon.