34 replies to this topic

[shedon666]

in my random pursuits to discuss life and death as an aspiring eternal earthling, i have run into a few times now, the fundamental of entropy. it seems to be immoratalities greatest foe. i did a search and found no specific thread discusscing it exclusively, so here i start. now i am not a scientifically based soul, but otoh, i understand more about physics and the way things are structured more than one would seem. i'll do my best and watch for discussion and assistance. here is what i get from the dictionary:

entropy: For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work; A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system; A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message; The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity; Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

ok, i will comment on each individual definiftion:

For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work

a quantitative measure? since how and when is there a depleting resource of temperature? does anyone here know that Earth Mother is a living being, spherical, no limbs, a host for us? does anyone see the balance? how we the limbed are host for other spherical individuals inside us, all called cells? if these cells "act up" we are governed. ah, so if we as humans act up, could the Earth be governed? it is my Earthling insight that Earth Mother does have emotions. stepping away and towards the sun is a reaction. need proof? bah!

A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system

disorder? lmao. so entropy has been made a "law". now what is it based on? the past? mankind has nothing but destruction and dissolution and disintegration to offer (except for a select few). so if this observed "law" is based on what has become and what we do understand today, we are screwed.

A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message

that explains everything.
lol.
the ability to understand and communicate effectivily is not a law.

The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity

the tendancy? again, if this is based on example then there is no room for progress and/or evolution. i have disproved most of what entropy thrives on with my own life and knowledges.

Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

ok, this one seems to be the clencher and backbone of entropy if i am understanding the deathrace correctly. my personal defense is my knowledge of energy and frequencies thereof; in music, the frequency of a note is dependant upon a position. i think the two sciences can coincide in theory.

ill add to this post and edit later, i am being pushed off this pc. my povert self doesnt own a pc so i am stricken to public resource with limited time usage. gtg.

Edited by shedon666, 12 May 2004 - 12:39 AM.

[chubtoad]

A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message

I think this is for a different kind of entropy from some kind of information science not from physics.

In physics entropy is usually defined statistically or in terms of heat. The verbal definitions are vague so I will give the mathematical form.

The statistical definition of entropy is S=k ln (omega). S is entropy, k is a constant (about 10^-23 joules/kelvin), omega is the number of microscopic states for a given macroscopic state. This number is normally huge so a logarithm is used much like the richter scale.
The second law of thermodynamics roughly states that entropy tends to increase.
An intuitive definition is found in Greene's book The Fabric of the Cosmos:

entropy: a measure of the disorder of a physical system; the number of rearrangements of a system's fundamental constituents that leave its gross, overall appearance unchanged

In terms of matter, solids tend to be at low entropy, liquids medium entropy, and gases/plasma high entropy.
There tends to be a change in energy towards the much less useful thermal energy (Here at wikipedia there is some info about how entropy can be measured and heat definitions of entropy (and more info on statistical the definition) http://en.wikipedia....re_of_disorder)

[shedon666]

entropy: The thermodynamic entropy S, often simply called the entropy in the context of chemistry and thermodynamics, is a measure of the amount of energy in a physical system which cannot be used to do work. It is also a measure of the disorder present in a system.

with that definition, especially the end, i see that "order" must be defined between individuals. i would safely guess that among immortalists that disintegration is disorder, correct? to die would be the outcome of disorder and to live would be order, correct? among immortalists? if yes, then wouldn't all death be disorder? even the death we cause? behind all the veil of "higher education" entropy seems to be simply poor conditions among opposing forces. and why is a metal engine used as a measuring point for entropy and our lives?

btw, thanks for the link. will read.

[chubtoad]

with that definition, especially the end, i see that "order" must be defined between individuals

The mathematical definition of entropy is more precise than this. It refers to the total number of microscopic states the system can be in not a subjective idea of order.

An interesting side note is that a black hole is the arrangement with the greatest possible entropy in the universe. The odd thing is that calculations have shown that the entropy depends on the surface area of the event horizon not on volume. This leads to speculation of a hologram universe and other odd ideas.

[shedon666]

The mathematical definition of entropy is more precise than this.  It refers to the total number of microscopic states the system can be in not a subjective idea of order.

is microscopic viewpoint a subjective idea of accuracy?

(that was a serious question)

i guess i should add an elaboration of my stance in all this. a laboratory overcoat, needles, microscopes, extracted bodily innards, etc., does not seem very sensible to me if "trying" to find a perpetual positive progress entowards integration with life.

am i a mathematical equation?

Edited by shedon666, 12 May 2004 - 07:44 PM.

[chubtoad]

Well the calculations of the numbers of microscopic states is not very accurate at all, but thermodynamics is a statistical science so only the average picture is important.

[shedon666]

This leads to speculation of a hologram universe and other odd ideas.

ah! see, i don't want anything other than Earth. i have quite the open mind to accept all the ideas of hologram universes and alternate realities. that's easy. but one has nothing if one doesn't chosse which one wants. i have chosen this planet and this reality for Eternity. I Love this Life and can forever. focusing on other places gets one nowhere with where one is. this is a viable science of mind. for example, if one is married to thy wife or husband, one will get nowhere if thinking about someone else romantically the whole time.

back to entropy, i have learned that on the physiological side of quantum physics within an individuals mind, there is a chemical or cellular manifestation for every emotion that a "brain" experiences. this system is also a two way street. what is physically and energetically (emotions) fed to the brain applies also. anyways, so this system of entropy is not a driver by design. i think it should be recognized as a passenger which is manageable.

aging can be sped up and slowed down, correct? i know this is correct, because i have done it myself. so with that, it comes irrefutable to me that it can be stopped. if you will, think about the physiological representation of confidence and honour/truth.

[chubtoad]

am i a mathematical equation?

A mathematical equation is a human made idea. You are likely governed by laws that can to some extent can be modeled by equations. You may be a collection of point particles, strings, branes, a computer simulation, a god created creature, your mind may be all there is and perception just an illusion, you may be a figment of my imagination, but I don't think you are literally an equation.

[shedon666]

A mathematical equation is a human made idea.  You are likely governed by laws that can to some extent can be modeled by equations.  You may be a collection of point particles, strings, branes, a computer simulation, a god created creature, your mind may be all there is and perception just an illusion, you may be a figment of my imagination, but I don't think you are literally an equation.

that was a very cool (and i am not speaking in terms thermodynamics) response!



just so this post is not a one-liner...i am glancing at the word "laws".
can "law(s)" to a human be defined as "barrier(s) of consciousness?"

does telekinetics adhere to laws? (i'm not sure)
using a source given to me earlier, here is some diction upon psychokinesis

thanks for discussion thus far fun fun.

[chubtoad]

i am glancing at the word "laws".
can "law(s)" to a human be defined as "barrier(s) of consciousness?"

properties of nature is probably a less subjective word than laws. These properties are barriers to consciousness in the sense that it prevents you from knowing certain things about the universe at certain times. But these properties also determine all of your thoughts and emotions so in that sense they are not barriers. Your consciousness is just the result of these properties.

[shedon666]

the intended and hopeful purpose of this thread was/is to possibly defile the inevitability of immortalities alter ego, entropy. if a concensus vision of its demise is captured then it is no longer a subjective viewpoint.

properties of nature is probably a less subjective word than laws.

property: A characteristic trait or peculiarity, especially one serving to define or describe its possessor; A special capability or power; a virtue

nature: The material world and its phenomena; The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world.

round and round we go.

[th3hegem0n]

Life uses energy to build order (less entropy), however-- reactions are never 100% efficient, some energy is lost in the form of heat, which is the trend of greater entropy.

Small amounts of heat go to entropy and cannot be reconciled back into a usable form. (If I remember all the science right [tung] )

[Illuminatusdarksoul]

can all this lost energy, no matter how small be recaptured, and can we live inside a 100% effective energy store and cycle the energy, could we make a barrier that was 100% effective, as i know lots of nearly effective barriers would not be good enough to hold in the energy we need to be immortal in a universe with limited energy resources is this something to bear in mind? i think it so.

[eternaltraveler]

This is a problem for beings far wiser than we are now. I do forsee a few possible solutions. We would have to be able to generate energy from nothing. Zero point energy.

But I know of no possible way to tap into zero point energy. Maybe in a billion years I'll have a solution.

[Illuminatusdarksoul]

yey the singularity, or something suspiciously alike it. what happens if lots of people become the singularity. will we have to call it something else.hmm.

[hightrain]

Matter is neither created nor destoryed. Hence, energy can neither be created nor destoryed.

[ilia]

“The intended and hopeful purpose of this thread was/is to possibly defile the inevitability of immortalities alter ego, entropy. Shedon666”


The entropy (disorder) of the universe does not necessarily increase – it just cannot decrease. And if the entropy of the universe does not change, then any process can be reversed and immortality is possible.

And even if the entropy of the universe does increase (this can be only in the case that the universe is a closed finite system), we as individual beings can maintain or decrease our entropy (the level of orderliness sufficient for life) by increasing the entropy/disorder of the environment – in Schrodinger’s terms “feeding on negative entropy”. There seems to be no fundamental limit to such “entropy parasitism”. Thus an individual system can be maintained indefinitely, at least until the hypothetical heat death of the Universe. But the heat death of the Universe is asymptotic and therefore will occur exactly an eternity from now.

[Infernity]

Matter is neither created nor destoryed. Hence, energy can neither be created nor destoryed. 

hightrain, I disagree on this statement, I tend to know non is possible- energy creation nor destruction.

Tell me what you think, please go through my crazy theory spread over this thread:
http://www.imminst.o...T&f=9&t=6139&s=

And over these two posts:
http://www.imminst.o...238
http://www.imminst.o...238

Ilia,

...îåæø ù"ùãåï666" äåà áëìì ìà îéùøàì... îòðééï àí äåà âí ìà îáéï òáøéú åîöà àú æä àéôä ùäåà

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[eternaltraveler]

Matter is neither created nor destoryed.  Hence, energy can neither be created nor destoryed.

You must have taken chemistry. In chemical reactions, you are correct; matter is neither created nor destroyed. But in the realm of physics matter is created and destroyed all the time.

Energy is also created and destroyed fairly continuously according to well standing theories, it just happens to happen at an equal rate, and at a scale that is very difficult to measure. So we don't tend to notice it.

[Infernity]

Energy is not being destroyed, simply divide, as other elements whom are destroyed- are actually only losing the molecular current order but the parts exist the same.
Yet- we don't know of a way to create information such as energy, simply to turn it, and use it, it always were...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[ilia]

Infernity,
áàîú îñ÷øï. øàéúé ëàï âí çáø áùí "àìåäéí" àáì äåà âí çáø áúðåòä äøàìééðéú åäí ëðøàä àåäáéí ùîåú òáøééí. àáì îòðééï áàîú îàéæä ëéååï áà ä"ùãåï". àéìéä.

[Infernity]

àéìéä,
äîîî, àðé âí øàéúé àú "àìåäéí". áëì î÷øä, àðé çåùáú ùàðé éåãòú áòøê àéê äåà äâéò ì"ùãåï". ùèðéñè ùìà îúîöà áñîìéí éåúø îéãé ðåèä ìçùåá ùäëåëá äîçåîù äåà ñîì äùèï (ùäåà ìîòùä ñîì ùì ùìîåú åéåôé ðùé, áä÷ùø ìëåëá åðåñ, âí ëï- àìú äàäáä ìôé äàîåðä äøåîéú...) ùàééì äåà ñîì ùèðåú- îùí áàå âí ä÷øðééí (àê ìîòùä ùäå îñîì áñê äëì âáøéåú, ëê âí àì äôéøéåï áàîåðä àçú îï äôâàðéåú äåà áòì øàù ùì àééì, æä òì ùí ùæàåñ áàîåðä äéååðéú éð÷ îòæ áäéåúå úéðå÷ àå îùäå ëæä åæä ðúï ìå àéæä ëåç...) åùäî÷ì äæä ùì ôåñéãåï- àì äéí òí ùìåùú äøàùéí äàìä (ùçëúé àéê ÷åøàéí ìæä, éù ìé áìà÷ ààåè) äåà ìîòùä äî÷ì ùì äùèï... ëì àìä åòåã øáéí æä ìîòùä äëçùä ùì äëðñééä ä÷úåìéú ìãáøéí äàìä åúéòåáí- äôëä àåúí ìùèðééí åîåùîöéí. (çç ìãòúé äëì ëëä,îåôøê, ëì îä ù÷ùåø ìãú, áëì î÷øä- äàîåðåú äôâàðéåú éåúø ñåçôåú åîøú÷åú). ú÷øà àú öåôï ãä åéðö'é îàú ãï áøàåï, áàîú ñôø èåá, îãáø òì ëì æä áéï äéúø.
áãøê ëìì, áñîì ùì äëåëá äîçåîù áä÷ùø ìùèï éù àåúéåú òáøéåú- îìîèä "õ", àçøéå îöã ùîàì "ø" àçø ëê "ð" àæ "æ" åàæ "á". àéï ìé îåùâ îä æä àåîø, àáì àðé éåãòú ùéù ÷ùø áéï äùôåú äùîéåú ìùèï- æä äëì äéä çì÷ îúäìéê îçé÷ú äàîåðåú äôâàðéåú ùì äëðñéä ìîòï äðöøåú, ìîøåú ùãåå÷à áëì æàú äøáä úôñ (ìãåâîà ùîåú äéîéí áùáåò, áàðâìéú ëîåáï...).
äåà ëðøàä ùèðéñè ëæä, åëðøàä éù ìå îï îùéëä ìè÷ñè ùîé ëâåï òáøéú- áâìì æä, ëëä ùäåà çéôù îåùâéí ùèðéñèéí ëàìä, åäâéò àéëùäå ì"ùãåï"...

àâá, úåãä ùìà úéøâîú àú äùí
Infernity
ìòáøéú

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[John Schloendorn]

Heh, that language is what I call entropy ;-)

[eternaltraveler]

Energy is not being destroyed, simply divide, as other elements whom are destroyed- are actually only losing the molecular current order but the parts exist the same.
Yet- we don't know of a way to create information such as energy, simply to turn it, and use it, it always were...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

i'm talking about quantum vacuum fluctuations

[armrha]

Entropy is just the loss of information when any two states interact with each other. Anything that happens in our universe is a process in time. A ray of light racing through the cosmos is a process of a particle that entangles, detangles, and travels through a energy-filled vaccum. Eventually that process results in the information of the photon, it's source, being dissapated into heat. Heat, in a closed system, is useless, information-free random motion. A statue is also a process in time, and as it is destroyed or decays, it releases heat. We release heat as we walk around, as we think. Unless radical, trans-universal technology is developed, we will not be able to create any kind of intelligent creature that does not produce heat in order to compute the operations of it's intelligence.

It's true that entropy can be halted, if no interactions or entanglements to any matter or energy happen within a system. There cannot be any intelligence in this state though. Intelligence requires computation. If we are thinking, we are giving off heat.

As to the staving off of entropy, making the human race last as long as possible... I suppose a logical course of action would be to extinguish all the stars. We could build a gigantic shell of superdense materials, larger then a solar system, and fuel it with the siphoned off matter from thousands of extinguished stars. In the center could rest our homestar, which we could keep burning for an extreme amount of time in a dark universe. If we filled the shell to capacity, we could build another, but with no other stars burning, it would take a very long time for the universe to reach an ultimate heat death. This solution is only feasible with a Type III civilization... but if we are worrying about the imminent heat death of the universe as a feasible end to our society, we'll probably be there by then.

And while Elrond is right and matter is created and destroyed, it is 'destroyed' into energy, releasing heat and light, neutrinos, positrons, whatever other remnants the destruction leaves. The equillibrium is maintained, the law of conservation of mass/energy still holds true. There is no more energy in the universe as the day it was created, so we have to be careful how we use it. If we could truly create energy without destroying an equal amount of matter or other energy, heat death would not be a threat at all. As it is, each time we use the matter and energy we have, some of it is lost, and we move closer and closer towards an informationless, person-free universe. We have yet to get any experimental evidence of failure modes of the laws of thermodynamics, as even black holes have turned out to eventually decay and release their energy as heat.

[armrha]

i'm talking about quantum vacuum fluctuations

Every experiment getting energy from QVF's has required more energy to set up then to get out of it... You have to push casimir's plates close together to add that energy to the system before you can witness the plates being attracted.

If we can eventually pull energy from the vaccum, that may not be the end of our worries, either, though. The universe would get pretty crowded, I'd wager... And I wonder what happens to an area of space if we drain all of the vaccum energy from it, if that is possible? Given the temperatures and scale of the big bang, I view most everywhere we see around us in the universe as completely 'frozen' space, crystallized in uniformity and clarity...

I'm not up to date on the latest ZPE research, though. What good candidates are there for some kind of energy source?

[Infernity]

Heh, that language is what I call entropy ;-)

Hehe well John that's one of the Semitic languages called Hebrew

(Elrond)
i'm talking about quantum vacuum fluctuations

Ah.

Entropy is just the loss of information when any two states interact with each other. Anything that happens in our universe is a process in time. A ray of light racing through the cosmos is a process of a particle that entangles, detangles, and travels through a energy-filled vaccum. Eventually that process results in the information of the photon, it's source, being dissapated into heat. Heat, in a closed system, is useless, information-free random motion. A statue is also a process in time, and as it is destroyed or decays, it releases heat. We release heat as we walk around, as we think. Unless radical, trans-universal technology is developed, we will not be able to create any kind of intelligent creature that does not produce heat in order to compute the operations of it's intelligence.

It's true that entropy can be halted, if no interactions or entanglements to any matter or energy happen within a system. There cannot be any intelligence in this state though. Intelligence requires computation. If we are thinking, we are giving off heat.

Armrah, isn't entropy simply a measure of the level of disorder in a system; amount of unavailable energy in a system [Thermodynamics]... [?]

And while Elrond is right and matter is created and destroyed, it is 'destroyed' into energy, releasing heat and light, neutrinos, positrons, whatever other remnants the destruction leaves. The equillibrium is maintained, the law of conservation of mass/energy still holds true. There is no more energy in the universe as the day it was created, so we have to be careful how we use it. If we could truly create energy without destroying an equal amount of matter or other energy, heat death would not be a threat at all. As it is, each time we use the matter and energy we have, some of it is lost, and we move closer and closer towards an informationless, person-free universe. We have yet to get any experimental evidence of failure modes of the laws of thermodynamics, as even black holes have turned out to eventually decay and release their energy as heat.

Ah ok, then I suppose I was somewhat correct...
However, I'm not too worried about finding in the future the possibility to regather the energy.

Hmm, perhaps if that white projector............ it won't be needed [glasses] . Err too groundless.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[knite]

I would have to disagree that entropy is a law, as evolution is the antithesis of it. and yes, the universe is still decaying all the same, but its entirely possible that we, the (hopefully) greatest product of true evolution, will be able to continue evolutions legacy and order the universe as we do our own environment.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

Entropy is a quantity in the laws of thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynamics are fundamental statistical laws of nature. These laws do not prohibit advancement and propagation of intelligence but only place limits on it. Wherever there is a bubble of low entropy there is a plentiful resource for the advancement and propagation of intelligence. When the entropy gets too high in the bubble then that potential is lost. There are claims of being able to get around this limitation by creating new universes, but I would like to see a mainstream scientific study of the statistical mechanical considerations of such a possibility.