284 replies to this topic

[niner]

why not?
they appear really good and effective at treating and boasting mitochondrial function.
and I think c60 might act in the same way.

What's the evidence that they work in mammals? What's the evidence that they are safe? c60-oo is easy to buy, easy and cheap to make, and it is accumulating an impressive record in a variety of species, including rats and humans.

[anagram]

It may seem mysterious, but the mechanism by which Nitroxides work is extremely simple and exists in both humans in animals. Nitroxides effectively bind to iron, and prevent its reduction, stopping the fenton reaction, basically ceasing mitochondrial decay.
I suspect c60 might also oxidize iron to iron(+3), except c60 will stay in your mitochondria for a long long time, and the oxidation takes longer than it does for ntBHA, probably because of ntBHA's small size. A key thing that I thought might exist is that perhaps c60 and Nitroxides are similar in they're life extension properties because the body does not recognize either, so it is unable to metabolize and get rid of either c60 or ntBHA through normal metabolism.

And my evidence that Nitroxides are safe is the fact that they are anti-radiation induced damage, anti teratogenic, and will treat radiation induced alopecia, all seem to show some safety for use.

The one thing that I am wary of is dosing properly, because as foreign chemicals that cannot be metabolized effectively, dosing to much could inhibit certain biological functions, however the risk is the same for practically anything, take to much and you die.
The ld50 for ntBHA is about 145mg/kg so its pretty safe on comparison to caffeine and other common chemicals.
The person who runs the more life website(it looks old but he is still posting new things on it), still takes a hefty dose of ntBHA a day.

Edited by anagram, 22 January 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[niner]

It may seem mysterious, but the mechanism by which Nitroxides work is extremely simple and exists in both humans in animals. Nitroxides effectively bind to iron, and prevent its reduction, stopping the fenton reaction, basically ceasing mitochondrial decay.
I suspect c60 might also oxidize iron to iron(+3), except c60 will stay in your mitochondria for a long long time, and the oxidation takes longer than it does for ntBHA, probably because of ntBHA's small size. A key thing that I thought might exist is that perhaps c60 and Nitroxides are similar in they're life extension properties because the body does not recognize either, so it is unable to metabolize and get rid of either c60 or ntBHA through normal metabolism.

And my evidence that Nitroxides are safe is the fact that they are anti-radiation induced damage, anti teratogenic, and will treat radiation induced alopecia, all seem to show some safety for use.

The one thing that I am wary of is dosing properly, because as foreign chemicals that cannot be metabolized effectively, dosing to much could inhibit certain biological functions, however the risk is the same for practically anything, take to much and you die.

Lots of speculation here, but little evidence. Being radioprotective is a good sign that they will do something useful, but it's not evidence of long term safety. Is there any evidence that they extend life? Improve health? If so, I doubt they're in the same league as c60-oo.

[anagram]

there are a ton of studies suggesting the use of nitroxides for they're protective ability, while very little suggest the use of c60 for any illness/ toxicity. one of the first things I ever researched on the internet was nardil toxicity, and one of the top links was a study saying that PBN ameliorated nardil caused kidney dysfunction. c60 sometimes causes kidney dysfunction, so I think saying c60 is "safe" compared to nitroxides is a little ungrounded. I know for a fact that many people use nitroxides on longecity, and just don't or haven't talked about it for awhile, so I am very interested naturally.
its been said that someone died from taking them, but I couldn't find any other info into that, so if that is where all the stigma is coming from, its probably not true, just another isochroma(forgive me for this) type fanatic trying to "protect" his supplements.
and honestly my only issue right now is that they're price seems to be extremely high, and one of the precursor chemicals have been banned by the government because of methamphetamine manufacture.
when I get some though, I will dose properly, even if nitroxdes don't give me the "life extending" properties that they do in older rats, something that is this good cannot be passed up, even for someone of my relatively young age.

Edited by anagram, 22 January 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[ta5]

A new review on spin traps was published a few days ago.

Free' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://pmid.us/23419732']Free Radic Biol Med. 2013 Feb 15.

Nitrone-based Therapeutics for Neurodegenerative Diseases. Their use alone or in Combination with Lanthionines.

Floyd RA, Castro Faria Neto HC, Zimmerman GA, Hensley K, Towner RA.

The possibility of free radical reactions occurring in biological processes led to the development and employment of novel methods and techniques focused on determining their existence and importance in normal and pathological conditions. For this reason the use of Nitrones for spin trapping free radicals came into widespread use in the 1970s and 1980s when surprisingly the first evidence of their potent biological properties was first noted. Since then wide-spread exploration and demonstration of the potent biological properties of phenyl-tert-butylnitrone (PBN) and derivatives were shown in preclinical models of septic shock and then in experimental stroke. The most extensive commercial effort done in order to capitalize on the potent properties of the PBN-Nitrones was for acute ischemic stroke. This occurred during the 1993-2006 time interval where the 2,4-disulfonyl-phenyl PBN derivative, called NXY-059 in the stroke studies, was shown to be safe in humans and was taken all the way through clinical phase 3 trials and was deemed to be ineffective. As summarized in this review because of its excellent human safety profile 2,4-disulfonyl-phenyl PBN, now called OKN-007 in the cancer studies, was tested as an anti-cancer agent in several preclinical glioma models and shown to be very effective. Based on these studies this compound is now scheduled to enter into early clinical trials for astrocytoma/glioblastoma multiform this year. The potential use of OKN-007 in combination with neurotropic compounds such as the lanthionine ketamine esters (LKE) is discussed for glioblastoma multiform as well as for various other indications leading to dementia such as aging, septic shock, and malaria infections. There is much more research and development activity on-going for various indications with the nitrones alone or in combination with other active compounds as briefly noted in this review.
PMID: 23419732

→ source (external link)

There are a few studies on OKN-007.

[renfr]

I do agree with anagram indeed, c60 is not as safe as some say...
In fact the ratio risk/benefit could be even quite high. But some people will naturally deny this to protect their precious supplements, I guess that's called fanaticism and I don't really understand why Longecity is making such a big deal out of c60, it even has its own forum when even the most popular nootropics (ie racetams) don't even have a forum of their own.
And how would nanoparticles be really beneficial?
Microparticles also exist in our bodies but at high doses they're an health hazard that's why we're trying to reduce pollution.
The best it can do is placebo effect, in the worst case it will damage your organs and your kidneys in particular.

[pleb]

Renfr please read any relevant tests about C60 there are dozens of them

i would guess that the supplement makers amounts are at the low end regarding how much they make compared how much is home made, there is a full list of posts and references to research done on C60 that show no toxicity even as far as 1 to 3 mg per cubic metre of air in factory settings being breathed in in its natural state,, so yes whilst no one can say it is absolutely safe it's probably safer than the whilst antibiotics you take,

whilst there are very few lab results regarding its use in humans (if any) from a medical point of view that's probably because it is intended for engineering use in electronics, photo cells, batteries, and similar items
the results with the rats came as a complete surprise to the team using it on the rats where it was being tested to see how toxic it was,,
as an aside my Ukrainian ex was a professor of Biochemistry and as she once told me if it don't kill rats it won't kill you,
although that may not strictly be true :>)

Edited by pleb, 22 February 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[anagram]

cyclic hydrocarbons are awful because the epoxides they form are damaging to DNA. C60 appears to be safe although it falls into that class of cyclic hydrocarbons, for the time being it appears that people "tolerate" high dose. That being said, I would not call C60 safe. adolescents and children have different metabolisms then adults, C60 should be listed as a teratogen because we know very little about its true effects right now. If c60 acts by blocking Na+ from moving through Na+ channels, a developing child might experience life long changes to this essential biological system because of C60 ingestion.
My concern here is the fact that this substance has its own personal sub forum on this website, giving people the impression that it is "safe". I would feel very guilty if someone were to have a negative reaction to C60. Lithium has been shown to have anti aging properties however I would not recommend 3 grams of it, not even to a total stranger.

[pleb]

whilst its true we know very little about how it works, Hydrocarbons are formed from petrol/oil and hydrogen and have nothing to do with C60

[anagram]

I still believe that C60 should be described as "a supplement for people above the age of 20", I wouldn't want someone giving this to they're kids.
C60 personally makes me a little depressed, I think it is similar to choline related depression, it feels exactly the same. I know there already is a disclaimer about C60's possible negative effects here on longecity, but another one more disclaimer would make me happier, possibly going into detail about side effects that I and a few others have experienced.

Edited by anagram, 22 February 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[pleb]

i totally agree with that i wouldn't talk anyone into taking it simply because i do, especially a younger person at the age you mention, i have one friend who has started it and has found it helped both her sleep and pain in her metatarsal bone caused by arthritis but she's 64
plus as i have been taking it for 6 months and not dropped down dead (my daughter words), she has also decided to try it to see if it helps with her fibromyalga which if i remember correctly is caused by inflammation,
she said she waited that long just in case, :>)
are you sure your side effects were caused by C60 as you seem to like to experiment with cocktails of C60 and other stuff,
are you sure it wasn't the olive oil, any one taking olive oil for fun deserves to be depressed lol
(just kidding guys)
i've had side effects, by that i mean things that the rats in Bahti's study didn't
mention, lol

Edited by pleb, 23 February 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[anagram]

I thought the oral gavage treatment of C60 was very stressful on the rats which ultimately made Bahti kill the remaining rats.


-I have rethought why C60 causes life extension, seeing the recent topic of lithium induced life extension and considering c60's effect on pain reduction, I am guessing that c60 blocks larger anions like Na+, and K+ from moving through out the body. Na+ and other voltage gated ion channels play a crucial part in causing apoptosis, by blocking these channels with agents like Lidocaine and melatonin you effectively save many cells from exocytotic death. Perhaps part of C60's benefit comes from allowing only smaller anions like H+ and Li+ through its caged pores, so the body does not completely shut down from lack of ion control, and retains the benefit of reduced ATP synthesis and lowered oxidative damage that is conferred with ion channel blockers.

-I was wondering why C70 gave me mild pains
http://pubs.rsc.org/...2/cp/c2cp41117b
-potassium deficiency is know to cause mild muscle pain.

C60s negative effect in Fish and aquatic animals could be explained by its interference with these channels which are crucial to amphibian life, ion channels are much more crucial to aquatic animals than they are in humans.

C60 is a neurotoxin in high doses, possibly because of its protein inhibiting effects. Protein inhibitors are known to be toxic, expecially to children.

Edited by anagram, 23 February 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[niner]

c60 sometimes causes kidney dysfunction

This sounds like more unfounded alarmism. Where does this claim come from? Is it the same compound (fatty acid adduct), or even the same form (solution of single molecules) that we are using? There are a lot of people taking c60-oo, and I've not heard a single report of kidney dysfunction.

[niner]

I do agree with anagram indeed, c60 is not as safe as some say...
In fact the ratio risk/benefit could be even quite high.

What do you base this on? A feeling?

But some people will naturally deny this to protect their precious supplements, I guess that's called fanaticism and I don't really understand why Longecity is making such a big deal out of c60, it even has its own forum when even the most popular nootropics (ie racetams) don't even have a forum of their own.

I would not deny realistic cautions about c60-oo, but I don't want to see people spreading baseless rumors either. That's not fanaticism, it's just a matter of being evidence-based. Longecity as an organization is about extreme life extension. We're making a big deal out of C60-oo because it is the most promising life extension agent that we have ever encountered. Nootropics are a sideline for us.

And how would nanoparticles be really beneficial?
Microparticles also exist in our bodies but at high doses they're an health hazard that's why we're trying to reduce pollution.

C60-oo isn't a nanoparticle, it is a single molecule. It is no more a nanoparticle than hemoglobin is a nanoparticle. It is beneficial because of its very unusual electronic nature which allows it to accept an electron very easily and delocalize it across a very large aromatic system. This makes it an extremely powerful antioxidant. Its molecular shape and hydrophobicity cause it to localize to membranes, particularly the mitochondrial membrane, which is exactly where most damaging ROS are created. It probably works primarily by intercepting and detoxifying mitochondrial and other ROS.

The best it can do is placebo effect, in the worst case it will damage your organs and your kidneys in particular.

This is simply nonsense. It's fine to ask questions, but please don't make factual claims about things that you don't understand.

[anagram]

C60 is exactly 1nm across, so it is not really close to just a small molecule, however I would not use size of a molecule to discriminate the effects in the human body, some extremely small molecules have drastic effects.

Right now C60 appears very safe, though some people have experienced light kidney pain. People report that they feel less pain after exercising, C60-in olive oil has analgesic effect that is comparable to very low dose Asprin. This might mean that c60 has the potential to react with certain peoples medications, and it might be especially bad for people who have kidney problems, we don't really know. Thats all I wanted to get out.

Edited by anagram, 23 February 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[niner]

C60 is exactly 1nm across, so it is not really close to just a small molecule, however I would not use size of a molecule to discriminate the effects in the human body, some extremely small molecules have drastic effects.

Right now C60 appears very safe, though some people have experienced light kidney pain. People report that they feel less pain after exercising, C60-in olive oil has analgesic effect that is comparable to very low dose Asprin. This might mean that c60 has the potential to react with certain peoples medications, and it might be especially bad for people who have kidney problems, we don't really know. Thats all I wanted to get out.

Do you know how long astaxanthin is? About three and a quarter nanometers. I think most people would consider it a small molecule. The term "small" in this case means "not a macromolecule". It doesn't mean "tiny", like nitric oxide or hydrogen. renfr was talking about nanoparticles and microparticles, which have dimensions ranging from tens to thousands of nanometers. That "kidney pain" report was later recanted, but I guess that's how rumors start. So what you're really trying to say is "we don't really know". You should say that, and not make statements like "c60 sometimes causes kidney dysfunction", which sounds factual, but isn't true. I wouldn't say that c60 has an analgesic effect. I would say it has an activity against chronic forms of inflammation, but not against acute inflammation, nor against pain. I don't think we can say that it reacts with medications. Is there any evidence of that? It might, or might not. There is no reason at all to think that it would be bad for people with kidney problems. If anything, it may well be good for people with kidney problems.

[renfr]

Niner there are studies out there about the nephrotoxicity it can cause, I'm sure you read them as well.
There's no certainty whether some c60 accumulate in tissue overtime, while c60 has very interesting antioxidant properties it's probably not worth extending your life if you are going to damage your kidneys, some people use c60 daily.
There are other studies like the one about brain damage in fish :
http://online.sfsu.e...braindamage.htm
It's not c60 in particular but also other kind of buckyballs be it c70, c84, ...
I have nothing in personal against c60 but it just doesn't deserve an entire forum for itself.
Moreover doing a whole forum about it is just making something with very unknown long term side effects popular but if you want to be a guinea pig fine.
And I don't understand why you are not calling it a nanoparticle, because as far as I can read it is, the buckyball itself is a nanoparticle.
If you are neutral then you should acknowledge that c60 isn't that wonder supplement with almost no SE and only benefits but here you almost sound like isochroma trying to desperatly protecting his racetams.
I recognize that it has an extremely antioxidant potential and it is an interesting matter of research but from the current studies it's probably not something you would take everyday like some people here do but rather sporadically.
I've always found irresponsible to take a research chemical daily for weeks, it's too unknown to be used chronically.

[tunt01]

carnosine, the dipeptide that has histidine has an increased antioxidant ability in the presence of zinc and copper.

I've not read these studies on histidine which you cite, but there are many chronic diseases where people are histidine deficient in which supplementation is considered useful.

[Turnbuckle]

renfr, you are off topic. This thread is about supplements that caused you harm, not about wild speculations.

[niner]

Niner there are studies out there about the nephrotoxicity it can cause, I'm sure you read them as well.
There's no certainty whether some c60 accumulate in tissue overtime, while c60 has very interesting antioxidant properties it's probably not worth extending your life if you are going to damage your kidneys, some people use c60 daily.
There are other studies like the one about brain damage in fish :
http://online.sfsu.e...braindamage.htm
It's not c60 in particular but also other kind of buckyballs be it c70, c84, ...
I have nothing in personal against c60 but it just doesn't deserve an entire forum for itself.
Moreover doing a whole forum about it is just making something with very unknown long term side effects popular but if you want to be a guinea pig fine.
And I don't understand why you are not calling it a nanoparticle, because as far as I can read it is, the buckyball itself is a nanoparticle.
If you are neutral then you should acknowledge that c60 isn't that wonder supplement with almost no SE and only benefits but here you almost sound like isochroma trying to desperatly protecting his racetams.
I recognize that it has an extremely antioxidant potential and it is an interesting matter of research but from the current studies it's probably not something you would take everyday like some people here do but rather sporadically.
I've always found irresponsible to take a research chemical daily for weeks, it's too unknown to be used chronically.

The 2004 fish paper that you linked has been debunked. It's due to experimental artifacts in the way they prepared the c60-water mixture. If you had been following the c60 discussions here, you would know this, as it's been covered more than once. Instead you are arrogantly declaring that you know things that you actually have no expertise on. If you think there are papers that show nephrotoxicity from c60-oo, kindly produce them. Do you even bother to read what I've written in this thread? I already explained why it isn't a "nanoparticle". We use the term "particle" for agglomerations with dimensions of tens to thousands of nanometers, NOT SINGLE MOLECULES.

Where in the hell am I saying c60-oo has no SE? We've discussed all the valid side effects in this forum, as well as numerous bullshit "side effects" like your nephrotox claim. I've already explained why c60 has its own forum. If you don't want to take it, no one is holding a gun to your head. How about showing a little humility, and read up on c60 before making claims about it? As Turnbuckle pointed out, this discussion is off topic. If you want to continue it, create a thread for it.

[ironfistx]

This is going to sound crazy but I think I have negative reactions to fish oil.

I have used both Vitamin Shoppe brand and Carlson brand liquid fish oils, and both of them make me sleepy after I take a single dose (1,500mg fish oil, 800mg EPA, 500mg DHA). I even made a thread about it.

I've heard nothing but good things about fish oil, though, so I continued to take between one and three servings (between 1,500mg - 4,500mg fish oil, between 800mg-2,400mg EPA, between 500mg-1,500mg DHA) per day over a period of weeks. During this period I began to feel worse and worse overall. Tiredness. Brainfog. Joint pains.

I stopped taking fish oil entirely 4 days ago and I'm feeling a little bit better each day.

I do have some other issues going on so it may be unrelated to the fish oil.

I keep detailed logs of everything I take each day so I can establish trends.

Will update in the future.

Edited by ironfistx, 23 February 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[nowayout]

I also feel achy all over from fish oil. I don't take it any more.

Also, there is a thread with lots of anecdotal accounts on another (weight training) forum claiming loss of sex drive from fish oil.

[renfr]

Niner there are studies out there about the nephrotoxicity it can cause, I'm sure you read them as well.
There's no certainty whether some c60 accumulate in tissue overtime, while c60 has very interesting antioxidant properties it's probably not worth extending your life if you are going to damage your kidneys, some people use c60 daily.
There are other studies like the one about brain damage in fish :
http://online.sfsu.e...braindamage.htm
It's not c60 in particular but also other kind of buckyballs be it c70, c84, ...
I have nothing in personal against c60 but it just doesn't deserve an entire forum for itself.
Moreover doing a whole forum about it is just making something with very unknown long term side effects popular but if you want to be a guinea pig fine.
And I don't understand why you are not calling it a nanoparticle, because as far as I can read it is, the buckyball itself is a nanoparticle.
If you are neutral then you should acknowledge that c60 isn't that wonder supplement with almost no SE and only benefits but here you almost sound like isochroma trying to desperatly protecting his racetams.
I recognize that it has an extremely antioxidant potential and it is an interesting matter of research but from the current studies it's probably not something you would take everyday like some people here do but rather sporadically.
I've always found irresponsible to take a research chemical daily for weeks, it's too unknown to be used chronically.

The 2004 fish paper that you linked has been debunked. It's due to experimental artifacts in the way they prepared the c60-water mixture. If you had been following the c60 discussions here, you would know this, as it's been covered more than once. Instead you are arrogantly declaring that you know things that you actually have no expertise on. If you think there are papers that show nephrotoxicity from c60-oo, kindly produce them. Do you even bother to read what I've written in this thread? I already explained why it isn't a "nanoparticle". We use the term "particle" for agglomerations with dimensions of tens to thousands of nanometers, NOT SINGLE MOLECULES.

Where in the hell am I saying c60-oo has no SE? We've discussed all the valid side effects in this forum, as well as numerous bullshit "side effects" like your nephrotox claim. I've already explained why c60 has its own forum. If you don't want to take it, no one is holding a gun to your head. How about showing a little humility, and read up on c60 before making claims about it? As Turnbuckle pointed out, this discussion is off topic. If you want to continue it, create a thread for it.

My bad then, I was just reporting what other C60 users reported themselves ie a pain in the area of the kidney.
I'm sorry maybe you should edit that article about nanoparticles on wikipedia where they state that fullerenes are nanoparticles... But right we're off topic so whatever.

[npcomplete]

Butcher's Broom:

I recently started taking butcher's broom for its elastase inhibition properties. This led to issues of peripheral neuropathy, which I have never had before. Symptoms started shortly after starting BB, and after discontinuing it all issues of PN disappeared. Perhaps it is related to the vasoconstriction properties of BB???

23andme says I am at increased risk for Raynaud's (STAT4, rs7574865 GT), which I have suspected for quite some time, but thought it was just frostbite (which is associated with Raynaud's) from spending a year in Antarctica living on a glacier. It sounds like rs7574865 GT mixed with living at the coldest place on earth was not a good mix. oh well... no BB for me.

Niner and Lufega have some interesting posts on elastase and BB here:
http://www.longecity...-looking-young/

[xEva]

I already explained why it isn't a "nanoparticle". We use the term "particle" for agglomerations with dimensions of tens to thousands of nanometers, NOT SINGLE MOLECULES.

Just curious, particles of what substance "nanoparticles" are, if they are less than a molecule in size? What do they consist of?

Wiki gives "the van der Waals diameter of a C60 molecule is about 1.1 nanometers (nm)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene

[Hebbeh]

Not to take this any further off topic than it already is but for those that aren't familiar with the C60/EVOO topic, the C60 is dissolved in the EVOO rather than being a suspension of C60 in oil.....there are no so called particles in the solution once prepared.

Edited by Hebbeh, 25 February 2013 - 02:13 AM.

[spermidine]

A new review on spin traps was published a few days ago.

Free Radic Biol Med. 2013 Feb 15.

Nitrone-based Therapeutics for Neurodegenerative Diseases. Their use alone or in Combination with Lanthionines.

Floyd RA, Castro Faria Neto HC, Zimmerman GA, Hensley K, Towner RA.

The possibility of free radical reactions occurring in biological processes led to the development and employment of novel methods and techniques focused on determining their existence and importance in normal and pathological conditions. For this reason the use of Nitrones for spin trapping free radicals came into widespread use in the 1970s and 1980s when surprisingly the first evidence of their potent biological properties was first noted. Since then wide-spread exploration and demonstration of the potent biological properties of phenyl-tert-butylnitrone (PBN) and derivatives were shown in preclinical models of septic shock and then in experimental stroke. The most extensive commercial effort done in order to capitalize on the potent properties of the PBN-Nitrones was for acute ischemic stroke. This occurred during the 1993-2006 time interval where the 2,4-disulfonyl-phenyl PBN derivative, called NXY-059 in the stroke studies, was shown to be safe in humans and was taken all the way through clinical phase 3 trials and was deemed to be ineffective. As summarized in this review because of its excellent human safety profile 2,4-disulfonyl-phenyl PBN, now called OKN-007 in the cancer studies, was tested as an anti-cancer agent in several preclinical glioma models and shown to be very effective. Based on these studies this compound is now scheduled to enter into early clinical trials for astrocytoma/glioblastoma multiform this year. The potential use of OKN-007 in combination with neurotropic compounds such as the lanthionine ketamine esters (LKE) is discussed for glioblastoma multiform as well as for various other indications leading to dementia such as aging, septic shock, and malaria infections. There is much more research and development activity on-going for various indications with the nitrones alone or in combination with other active compounds as briefly noted in this review.
PMID: 23419732

→ source (external link)

There are a few studies on OKN-007.

i wonder why nobody commented on this yet

[tham]

ginkgo spiked my blood pressure, paradoxically. Might have been something else in the pill, because it doesn't make sense.
blueberry extract caused insomnia.
lipoic acid gave me orthostatic hypotension
creatine made my hair fall out.

I wouldn't be surprised if different versions of the same supplements did not show these effects, with the possible exception of the ALA.

Some years ago, I gave this local brand of ginkgo, just one tab daily, to
a Malay friend. It landed him in hospital with a hypertensive crisis after
one or two weeks on it.

http://hovidonlinest...-10-x-10-s.html


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23271526

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19455923



There are also several documented cases of it causing subarachnoid hemorrhage
or subdural hematomas.


http://www.neurology...46/6/1775.short


" In the June 1996 issue of the journal Neurology a case report appeared of a lady
in her thirties, who had been taking 120 mg of Ginkgo biloba daily for two years
and who presented with large bilateral subdural hematomas - bleeding deep to the
covering of the brain, compressing the brain matter itself.4 There was no antecedent
history of head trauma, and the patient's only other medications were acetaminophen
and a very brief trial of ergotamine/caffeine tablets. Specifically, the patient had
taken no anticoagulants. She had taken neither aspirin nor any non-steroidal
anti-inflammatory medications. Her bleeding time (see below) was prolonged, but
returned to normal when it was re-checked a month after cessation of the ginkgo.
(She underwent emergency surgical evacuation.) "

http://home.comcast....ler/ginkgo.html



http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15277097


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21476233

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1490168/


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11206893

Edited by tham, 25 February 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[spermidine]

also on the issue of l-histidine as niner and anagram discussed extensively for a bit, i have a question relating. is zinc that is chelated with histidine, aka zinc histidinate, possible to be getting a bit too much histidine bioavailable over time supplementing it ?

[anagram]

spermidine, anything in excess in B.A.D.. Stick to the recommended dose and you should be set.


I have a new supplement to add the the shit list, Phenylalanine + choline bitartate + Bocopa + Ginko.
That ruined my grades so much... I studied for 3+ hours on a single paper, and didn't retain anything, absolutely nothing and there were only about 10 sentences I was looking at the whole time. In the end I scored lower than I would have If I had never taken supplements, had never attend the class, and had been asleep for most of my life.

This test was multiple choice, but I scored less than 50% even though this was a test where every question offered a 50% chance of being right.
it breaks the laws of probability.... Fuck that cheap ass supplement.
Ironically it was being marketed as a brain boaster, BS, realistically it could be given to prisoners before they are put on Death row, so they don't whine about they're impending death.

I pray I don't have brain damage, the fact that I lost a lot of memories while I was on this supplement is not reassuring.