* BJKlein Official Chat Starts
<BJKlein> Ken MacLeod - Politics & Science Fiction
<BJKlein> Scottish science fiction writer Ken MacLeod joins ImmInst to discuss current ideas on politics, science fiction and physical immortality.
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=63&t=3630<BJKlein> Thanks for joining us, Ken!
<Ken> Good evening, and thanks for inviting me
<BJKlein> you're in Stocland or Ireland now?
<BJKlein> *Scotland
<Ken> Scotland
* BJKlein hears the accent
<BJKlein> what got you into writing scifi?
<Ken> It can be mistaken for Irish, but I've never lived in Ireland
<Ken> SF - reading it in my teens. Like most SF writers, started as a reader then wrote some SF short stories - all bad
<BJKlein> sorry about using scifi, will use SF
<BJKlein> careless habit
<igniculus> whats wrong with scifi?
<Ken> No problem. Was going to add, I only started writing seriously in my mid thirties I think
<Ken> SF had got interesting again with cyberpunk etc
<BJKlein> I'm not to familar with cyberpunk
<Ocsrazor> Do you think SF can keep up with the pace of tech development Ken?
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<Ingmeme> igniculus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-fi<BJKlein> igniculus, scifi seems a little brutish, but i may be wrong
<igniculus> ah, elitism !
<Ken> Gibson's 'Neuromancer', Sterling's Schismatrix etc. Vinge, Neal Stephenson
<Ocsrazor> as examples of keeping up Ken?
<SFpen> Ken any advice for incoming sci-fi writers?
<Ken> They were ahead of it! In general it is difficult but this only matters with near future stuff
<Ken> SFpen - advice: keep writing, because practice is all. Read widely and know more than you write about!
<BJKlein> Ken, have you have any new wow ideas lately?
<BJKlein> no pressure
<SFpen> What in your view is the state of "the market" now?
<Eliezer> SFpen: To become a good author you must write a million words to throw away. Yes, a million, so you'd better start now. Read at least four books about writing science fiction.
<Ken> I have a far-future first contact novel started, Bruce. Ideas are not that original, but I think the combination is.
<transBeing> Q: In next decate, do you expect massive unemploynment becouse of the work robotization, and how to deal with it? How will (not) politics deal with it...?!
<igniculus> Eliezer>why? he could be a natural
<Ken> SFpen - state of the market is good.
<transBeing> *decade
<Ken> transBeing - no I don't, tech progress automation etc have never done this in the past
<Ken> Other jobs open up.
<BJKlein> what's your best SF novel thus far?
<Ken> BJK - not for me to say. I like The Stone Canal best but I think my latest, Newton's Wake, is pretty good.
<Eliezer> Ah, yes. Newton's Wake.
<Eliezer> The Singularity book.
<Ken> That's it.
<BJKlein> Ken, do you expect a Singularity within the next few decades?
<Ken> BJK - some kind of Singularity, sure, but I think more to do with biotech, lifespan extension etc than uploading or human-level AI. May be just a prejudice, but the bio and genetic stuff is what's moving fastest now
<SFpen> Ken, in your view, how important are quotes for unpublished authors?
<Ocsrazor> completely disagree Ken, but I'm very bised
<Ocsrazor> biased
<Ken> SFpen - not a lot, and not your problem - your editor will get quotes if the book is accepted.
<BJKlein> Ken, i agree biotech is blazing now.. but it seems likely that any AI at human level would zoom past humans when it was able to self-improve intellignece...
* Eliezer smiles wryly. "It's always a bit odd to see the way that the Singularity is viewed in science fiction as a plot device. For me, it's a real event I want to influence, and any plot-device characteristics are distractions."
* Eliezer is completely unbiased
<Ocsrazor> biotech is becoming extremely dependent on advances in computing
<BJKlein> Ken, you may know.. but Eli is my estimation and many others, Mr Singularity
<Ken> Yes BJK, but first get your human level AI. Hard problem IMHO
<igniculus> biopolitics how is this going to shape up over next decade you think?
<Eliezer> Are there any aspects of Newton's Wake that you would view as best predictions? Or does it all strictly follow the needs of the story?
<Ken> igniculus - that's up to us as transhumanists or whatever to influence the debate away from the Luddites and religioious reactionaries etc
<Eliezer> Would you actually expect the brightest minds to be, ahem, "Raptured" away following the emergence of a rapidly recursively self-improving intelligence? What would you regard as the most probable outcome in real life?
<Ken> Eli - Newton's Wake is written as a Singularity novel with human characters, what Charlie Stross calls 'rats inthe walls'. Not meant to be predictive, just playing with the ideas
* Eliezer sighs
<BJKlein> Ken, who is your fav. SF author now?
<Eliezer> Vinge's original novels... I can't quite call them activist
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<Eliezer> But they took the concept seriously in a way that cyberpunk doesn't seem to, these days
<Ken> Sure Eli. BJK - Vinge is a writer I greatly respect. Paul MacAuley is doing good work, which I'm a couple of books behind on.
<BJKlein> what is your writing schedule?
<Eliezer> Or at least, the cyberpunk I've read, Charlie Stross and such, seems to treat the Singularity as ironic commentary on the speed of change - it's not predictive or activist.
<Ken> I try to write in the mornings, but as deadlines approach this can be morning noon and night. Eli, Charlie takes the Singularity very seriously
<SFpen> Ken, which near-future authors you believe are doing revolutionary work?
<Ken> What do you mean by revo work?
<SFpen> New stuff?
<BJKlein> Ken, do you let your politics openly influence your writing?
<Ken> OK. Charlie Stross, for sure. M. John Harrison's 'Light' is an amazing book. Partly near future. Paul MacAuley, real serious research and thought, and very readable
* Eliezer says to BJKlein: "Nah, Ken has a wide reputation as one of the most apolitical writers."
<BJKlein> you're kidding?
<Eliezer> yes, outrageously so
<BJKlein> ha
<Ken> BJK, yes I do indeed. I use them, I hope, to show different sides of an arguement rather than to preach.
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<BJKlein> Is this a comon practice among SF writers?
<Ken> BJK - no, it's very much the other way esp when the writers have strongly held views.
<BJKlein> do you think you've been effective in this, or i guess it's hard to tell..
<Eliezer> How would you present the opposite side of hard-left libertarianism? You should get a free pass. Intrinsic diversity.
<BJKlein> stretch the writing skills
<Ken> I've certainly sparked off a lot of arguments if online SF fora are anything to go by, but this was a few years ago, especially when The Cassini Division came out in US. People have written to me and said my books got them thinking and studying.
<transBeing> isn't SF writer suppose to have strong views, principles?
<Ken> Eli - opposite side is just normal politics.
<Eliezer> Fair enough.
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<John_Ventureville> Any comments on how you portray women and human sexuality in your novels?
<Ken> trnasBeing - they don't have to. Scepticism is a virtue, or can be. A lot of libertarian SF writers grind the axe too much, follow the bad examples set by some of Heinlein's work
<BJKlein> Could you encapsulate for us the reasoning behind your political views?
<Ken> John - I try to portray women as human beings. Sexuality is a bit conventional in most of my books
<John_Ventureville> I thought to your credit you have strong female characters and show sexual mores somewhat different than the current mainstream ones today in the west
<Ken> BJK - the reasoning I suppose is that freedom is hard work and has many dimensions.
<BJKlein> Ken, so how long do you wish to live?
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Ken> John - thank you. More liberal sexual mores, sure. We all learned a lot from Heinlein. But there are no e.g. gay characters really shown as viewpoint characters, etc
<Ken> BJK - I would like to live a thousand years and then see what the options are
<Eliezer> Ken, suppose you could live in any kind of world - any background rules, from our current background rules to background rules based on your favorite SF novel, or video game. What kind of world would you live in, if it were entirely up to you? You can't give yourself a special case in the dynamics - you have to pick rules that apply to everyone equally, including you - but aside from that you can pick any possible society and ap
<BJKlein> thus, would this imply that you do not think death=oblivion?
<Ken> BJK - sure I do. I'm a materialist
<BJKlein> Eli, sorry cutoff at "possible society and ap" (need to fix that)
<Eliezer> from that you can pick any possible society and apparent laws of Nature. Where would you most like to live?
<Ken> Eli - it's not a question I've ever really thought about. I wouldn't mind living in Banks's Culture
<John_Ventureville> Ken, do you think the odds are good that technology will allow you (based on a man of your age) to actually "break" the lifespan barrier which currently has a stranglehold on you and the rest of us?
<MRA>
<Eliezer> That's a common choice.
<Ken> John, that's my hope. I once wrote a little piece called 'What if we're already immortal?'
<John_Ventureville> I will have to track that one down
<MRA> Is it published?
<Eliezer> Banks appears to be the one to beat in the quality-of-living department. There's a challenge for an SF writer; write a nicer place to live than Banks's Culture.
<Ken> It was published in T3, a technology magazine, a few years ago.
<irvken> Ken, why does so much good sc-fi come out of Scotland?
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, how about the world of the Krell before their *little mishap" of out of control ids?
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Ken> irvken - Just coincidence! None of the Scottish SF writers think there is a Scottish SF
<Eliezer> Oddly enough, I haven't heard Jack Chalkers's Malkovians mentioned in the same breath with the Culture.
<John_Ventureville> Ken, why do you think so much good SF comes out of Australia?
<Eliezer> er, Markovians
<Ken> John, I couldn't begin to guess
<John_Ventureville> ok
<Eliezer> they're upside-down, so they have a different perspective on things
<Ken> ha1
<Ken> ha!
<John_Ventureville> *maybe it's all the beach parties they have*
<Eliezer> they all feel like people are comparing them to Greg Egan
<Eliezer> well, we are, of course
<Ken> Siunshine lifts the mood. See, eg, Egan :-)
<BJKlein> heh
<John_Ventureville> that must be it!
<John_Ventureville> Ken, I heard you make an unflattering comment about Extropians? Would you care to explain? Has it been taken out of context?
<BJKlein> Ken, you've written about cryonics, I'd guess?
<irvken> I left a copy of tereanesia in a taxi once, 30 pages from the end, I appealed on some newsgroup for someone to ocr the last 30 pages, and Greg Egan mailed me the rest of the book instaed, which i thought was very nice of him
<John_Ventureville> I would be touched
<Ken> John- I've said I found some of the Extropians, online when I first encountered them, a bit either scary or nerdy, and the Outwarders in my Fall Revo books were kind of a caricature of that element.
<John_Ventureville> ok
<BJKlein> Ken, that wouldn't be political bias now would it?
<Ken> Re cryonics - I haven't written on it. For one thing, people much better informed than me have done good SF on the subject
<John_Ventureville> well..., hopefully the Immortality Institute chat crowd will not make the same impression upon you
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Ken> BJK - I had some political bias, sure, but it wasn't because of the anarcho-capitalism. That was cool. It was a kind of attitude of to hell with everybody else
<BJKlein> Mantra: Don't mix Immortality and Politics
<irvken> ken, do you do alot of this, hosted chat stuff, are you promoting a book athe moment?
<Ken> This my first hosted chat. No promotion going on though I always slip in a good word for Newton's Wake :-)
<John_Ventureville> Has Hollywood shown interest in any of your novels? And even if not, have you ever written a screenplay or at least considered it?
<Ken> John - no nibbles from Hollywood yet. I've tried writing a screenplay - well, a treatment to begin with - and found it harder than just writing a novel.
<John_Ventureville> interesting
<Eliezer> Boy, I'd love to see what the wta-talk list (leftist, *non*-libertarian transhumanism) would make of you
<John_Ventureville> a screenwriter friend of mine said the "word on the street" now is that Hollywood execs now prefer novel submissions over screenplays
<Ken> Eli - I'm in the WTA, but don't take part in the list. Post sometimes to Cyborg Democracy
* Eliezer nods
<John_Ventureville> I don't know the correctness of his claim
<Ken> I'll bear it in mind
* MRA looks in his 'To Read' pile and notices 4 novels by Ken
<Ken> Cool!
<Eliezer> The problem with writing an interesting SF screenplay is that you've got two hours of screen time. That's maybe one chapter of a good SF book. I think there are more sci-fi movies based on short stories than novels.
<MRA> Actual books... ever thought of publishing eletronic copies?
<John_Ventureville> I must confess that I have so far only read The Cassini Division
<irvken> I wish i hadn't read them, I'd love it to be the first time again
<BJKlein> Ken, I just wanted to remind you, you'll be turning 50 soon.
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<Ken> MRA - electronic publishing is for my agent and editors to sort out!
<MRA> ah.. true.
<MRA> Most of them seem to make a mess of e-publishing.
<Ken> BJK - are you suggesting I should arrange to freeze my head?
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* BJKlein looks behind himself
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Ken> :-)
* BJKlein is on a mission to save valuable sentience
<Eliezer> I'd suggest that you go stick your head in a bucket of liquid nitrogen.
<Ken> E-publishing is an area where the right hardware platform is the key insight and the place where stacks of money will be made
<Eliezer> And hey, that's just what I tell my friends.
<MRA> Although I've bought several of Damien Broderick's stories from Fictionwise as e-books.
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<irvken> hmm, you use the same blogging template as me :(
<irvken>
http://www.irvken.pw...der.co.uk/blog/<MRA> Quite cheap, and Damien gets a bigger cut
<John_Ventureville> Ken, I must admit that as a signed up cryonicist that it bugs the hell out of me that so many science fiction writers have rejected the notion of personally getting signed up for cryonics. I think that if they are so entranced with the future they should take the ultimate educated gamble and join up.
<Guest> oh, just talked to Damien. He's doing fine- livin in San Antonio (the honeymoon capital of the world).
<John_Ventureville> I have never met Damien in person but I know his lovely lifemate.
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<Guest> I never met her. He's been married a couple of years, right??
<John_Ventureville> yes
<Ken> John, it's just one of those things. You are right about SF writers, they're not that interested. I guess it's a sort of fatalism.
<Eliezer> Hah. Not all SF writers are *entranced* with the future. There's... surprisingly little *hope* in SF, these days. Sometimes I wonder if Vinge's Singularity concept is ultimately behind that change.
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<Eliezer> Ken: Do you have any objections to cryonics - reasons you feel it unsuitable for you personally?
<Ken> Eli - no, read some Brit SF! Read Peter F. Hamilton!
<Eliezer> I've read Peter Hamilton. I suppose that wasn't entirely despairing.
<BJKlein> 5 min til end of official chat.. all (including Ken) please feel free to stay
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<MRA> Gee, most of the SF I've read is pretty positive.
<MRA> Recent SF i mean
<Eliezer> Interesting how you can measure a (recent) SF writer's optimism by the amount of sex their characters have.
<Ken> Eli - re cryonics. It's not personal, it just seems to me like dying and somebody else coming back.
<BJKlein> is that Ben Hijink?
<John_Ventureville> ahh....
<Ken> I would like to live a long time, but have no interest in dying and being resurrected.
* MRA mentions it is *really* nice to chat with SF authors, and encourages Ken to return!
<Eliezer> Mm. Willing to risk your life to bet that your philosophy of consciousness is correct?
<Ben> Hello
<Ken> Eli - damn right! Also, you don't know what world you'll wake up in!
<irvken> Ken how are you voting in the Euro elections?
<John_Ventureville> Ken, your concern has been discussed at great length among the most educated of the transhumanists
<BJKlein> Ken, i don't want to drive a wedge into your brain.. but it's not death.. death is not an event.. it's a process
<BJKlein> to a degree
<BJKlein> freez and slow the progression
<John_Ventureville> as I like to tell people "it's a huge gamble but one worth taking if it really works the way I want it to."
<Eliezer> For me it is a question of pure neurology, information change. If the information doesn't change, it doesn't matter what else happens, what it looks like, and so on. Just like going to sleep and waking up, except that when you sleep your mind-state undergoes sharper changes.
<BJKlein> dust is much more toward dead than frozen brain
<MRA> BJK - the large price tag attached to the gamble that turns many off cryonics.
<Ben> Apparently BioTime has frozen and revived mammals after 2 hourshttp://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.05/biotime.html?pg=1
<Eliezer> As for not being sure what world you'll wake up in... it's a world that cared enough to revive you, and had the tech to do it. That part really is a question of courage.
<John_Ventureville> I admit to being one of those people who shudders at the very idea of being uploaded
<Ken> I've read the arguments, Drexler etc, and while I have no serious scientific objection it still somehow doesn't grab me.
<irvken> just leaves me cold
<BJKlein> MRA, I'm not a salesman, but cryonics can be as low or lower than cable
<MRA> BJK: I don't have cable
<Ken> As to how I'll vote, probably Scottish Socialist Party, because they were the anti-war party here.
<BJKlein> MRA, you're smarter than I
<Eliezer> Crushing your feeling of weirded-outness is a critical life skill. Even if you plan on living into the future the warm way, it's still a critical life skill.
<Ben> I think of it as awakening from a coma now - if functionalism is correct and the substrate is not replaced by glass or something, it seems it should work
* BJKlein Official Chat Ends
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<Ken> Thanks BJKlein and all who've taken part. This was fun for me and I hope it was for you. Will stick around a few minutes, but it's midnight here.
* BJKlein stares into the mirror
<TylerE> I'm just in time!
<TylerE>
* BJKlein runs away
<MRA> No, you're late!
<Eliezer> For me, the odd thing is that people are willing to bet their life on their personal philosophy of consciousness.
<Ken> Hi
<John_Ventureville> Ken, thank you so much for coming
<TylerE> Hehe
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, or their "feelings" about cryonics
<BJKlein> Ken, many thanks for your time.. it's been quite fun!
<irvken> ken have you come across the IWCA?
<Eliezer> I mean, I look at my philosophy of consciousness from, say, four years ago, and I see total crap. It's not a reliable thing to risk your life on. I wouldn't even risk my life on the correctness of general relativity, if I could avoid it.
<SFpen> Ken do you write quotes for incoming authors?
<Ken> Eli, people have been doing that since the beginning of humanity. But it's not my life I'm betting ... oh well
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<Eliezer> I didn't understand that part, actually.
<Ken> irvken, yes I have, so far not too impressed but will see what they're saying more recently
<BJKlein> Eli, have you signed up for cryonics yet?
<irvken> they're standing in the London mayoral elections!!!
<irvken> which i thought was very odd
* Eliezer says to BJKlein: "I've been considering it. I worked out a possible albeit improbable way my frozen brain could benefit humanity pre-Singularity."
<Ben> Peopel risk their life on beliefs all the time. Sometimes the beliefs are mainstream and they just don't notice it. I'm not too keen on cloning myself, so I can understand reservations to cryonics to some extent
<Ken> SFpen, I write quotes when I get a manuscript I enjoy from an editor or publisher.
* BJKlein encourages Eli to save himself
<BJKlein> we'll have a laugh at the old chats in 1,000 yrs
<Guest> has anyone researched immortality though a change in diet?
<irvken> yeah me
* Eliezer is still a strict altruist until his work is done
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<John_Ventureville> BJ, I'm sure we will have a very good laugh!
<BJKlein> welcome Guest... CR is the way to extend lifespan
<Guest> irvken what have you found?
<Guest> hell bjklein
<John_Ventureville> Ken, do you think the U.S. overthrow of Saddam/occupation of Iraq will ultimately be a huge failure in terms of trying to create a longlasting democracy within the heart of the Arab world?
<Guest> er hello I mean
<SFpen> Don't you think a quote would help an unpublished author get an editor in the first place?
<irvken> that i've reached tha age of 400 on a diet of beer and beans
<Ben> I don't "go to church as life insurance" as most people in the US do - I think people really need to be convinced by advanced technological proposals before many can be expected to embrace them, jgiven that we are pushing minority perspectives
<Guest1> Just signed on. Loved Macleod's books, but Gad, whats with his left wing communist leanings?
<Guest> lol irvken
<irvken> funnily enough, he's abit too conservative for me
<Guest1> lol
<BJKlein> if you're a guest, you can change your nick name by typing: /nick NewName
<Guest1> ok
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<Guest> has anybody heard of somebody callled saint germain, supposed to be 2000 years old?
<Ken> SFpen, I really don't, and I don't recommend that approach. Writers don't read unpublished MS except for personal friends or in writing circles or workshops etc. You do not need quotes form published writers to get your work seen. I recommend Teresa Nielsen Hayden's blog Making Light as a fount of sound advice.
<irvken> yep, he lives 4 door down
<SFpen> Many thanks!
<Martin> I enjoyed his Cassini Division books. Any discussion about post singularity futures?
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<Ken> John - I don't know but that's the way to bet!
<Guest> irvken I am trying to be serious
<BJKlein> Guest, the oldest recorded human is 122
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<John_Ventureville> where were they from?
<irvken> as i'm in the same time zone as Ken, and I have work in the morning, I'm off to bed, Sunday evenings are not designed for seriousness
<Guest> yes bjklein i know that
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<BJKlein> Jeanne Louise Calment
<irvken> god, the virians have arrived I'm definitely off
<Guest> yes from france i believe, died a few years ago
<Ken> keep in touch irvken
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<Eliezer> why do I have the feeling that the changed chat time was not explained so clearly as it might perhaps have been?
<goomba> rawr
<BJKlein> Jeanne Louise Calment was born in Arles, France on February 21, 1875
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.o...T&f=48&t=510&s=<Guest> so what is the most promising way to become immortal without cryogenics?
<Guest> and without cloning organs when they fail?
<Ken> Martin, we briefly discussed Newton's Wake
<BJKlein> Eli, some just show at 8 regardless of any email reminder
<John_Ventureville> I read there was an African-American man who may have been 135 years-old but their were no conclusive birth records (he had been born to slaves in the south)
<Eliezer> Guest: Immortality is a high-tech deal. Barring enormously high-tech, or cryonics, or just living another 15 years, you're screwed.
<MRA> Guest: Create a Friendly AI ->
http://www.singinst.org/intro then ask it nicely to help out.
<BJKlein> it's our current packaging that sucks.. biology is a sad deal
<Guest> eliezer there has to be an easier way....
<Sat> 15 years is a short time
<Ken> Good night/evening/morning all, I'm off, but will drop by in the future all being well. Thanks again.
<Eliezer> Guest: No, there doesn't. Reality is cruel that way. Cryonics is what you've got, and if you turn it down, Reality will squish you without a moment of remorse. Just be glad you've got the cryonics option. The last hundred billion humans to die didn't.
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<BJKlein> seya Ken.. take care, and come back anytime
<John_Ventureville> Ken, thank you again for coming
<John_Ventureville> a great chat tonight
<Ken> Thanks!
<Guest> what about fasting to increase life span, I have heard of research saying rats that live for two years will live for three years when put on a fasting regimen, the same theory they say should work for humans
<John_Ventureville> or calorie restriction
<BJKlein> Eli, i suspect your instinct to survive will eventually outshine your instinct for alturism
<Guest> yes john that too
<MRA> Fasting, or CR - calorie restriction - only buys you 20% increase at most!
<BJKlein> but you will find a way to ballance
<Gordon> well, crap, I make it back to the computer just as Ken is leaving :-(
<Guest> mra I disagree
* Eliezer says to BJKlein: "Then *you'd* be screwed. Do you really want to encourage me along that road? You're being altruistic at the expense of your own survival, y'know."
<Ocsrazor> on the 20% guest?
<BJKlein> good poing.. forget what i said
<BJKlein> *point
<NewName> yes ocsrazor
<goomba> its too late youve doomed us all
<MRA> Do you think the number is too high or too low?
<old> mra i think it is possible to double your lifespan at least with fasting and calorie restriction
* BJKlein feels he can altruistic and self-interested
<MRA> But humans != mice.
<oldmaybe> has anybody done fasting?
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, I love you to death but sometimes I think you have a real messiah complex in terms of your relationship with the oncoming Singularity
<Ocsrazor> speaking as a molecular biologist and an expert on aging I would completely agree with MRA
<Ocsrazor> 20% max
<oldmaybe> I have done fasting and it is really interesting
<MRA> The experimental results for mice will not carry over to humans in an equivalent % increase.
<oldmaybe> what about researching into cleansing junk out of your body
<John_Ventureville> but I do admit to wishing the world would embrace you and fund your initiatives
<MRA> Cleansing 'junk' is just pop-science.
<oldmaybe> and eliminating cooked food, eating raw food, especially fruit, theorietcly you wont age
<oldmaybe> mra why do you say that?
<oldmaybe> have you ever tried cleansing?
<MRA> oldmaybe: because it is not backed by experimental evidence.
<oldmaybe> has anybody done any "cleansing"?
<mjr> *sigh*
<oldmaybe> yes because it would wipe out a trillion dollar industry
<MRA> Oh nonsense... the industry could just cater to the new diet.
<oldmaybe> I would suggest not bashing it until you have tried it
*transBeing* hi, the page imminst.org have real troubles showing right with Opera browser
<oldmaybe> what if you could cure all disease for free
<MRA> And the industry would make even more money, and for a longer period.
<MichaelA> I know one way to cleanse "junk" out of your body
<oldmaybe> taking no medication, no surgery
<oldmaybe> michaela ... how?
<mjr> MichaelA, decapitation?
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<MichaelA> Visiting the bathroom on a regular basis
* MRA lol
<oldmaybe> well I see I am being made fun of and that is really sad
* MRA thanks MichaelA for a good summary.
<MichaelA> Sorry
<Ocsrazor> and exercise Michael :D
<Ocsrazor>
<MichaelA> Seriously though, to get real life extension, you have to be serious
<oldmaybe> usually a intelligent person would ask how and not just make fun
<MichaelA> Eh... serious x 2
<oldmaybe> I am being very serious
<Ocsrazor> its not sad oldmaybe, there just isnt any data to back it up
<MichaelA> "Serious" as in "turn yourself into a cyborg"
* Eliezer says to oldmaybe: "There's a way of cleansing junk from your mind; it is called the scientific method."
<oldmaybe> because there is no money in it
<oldmaybe> eliezer it is scientific
<BJKlein> let me throw this idea out...
<Eliezer> A scientist would not say, "X is scientific."
<Ingmeme> If I were you, I'd definitely invest in some mental floss before I worry about cleaning anything else.
<Eliezer> A scientist would say, "X was experimentally confirmed by Ledbetter and Pompzidaize (1991)."
<BJKlein> will there be an industry for mental enhancement within the next 10 yrs
<oldmaybe> like what bjklein?
<MRA> A scientist would present a theory, hypothesize about that theory and show experimental results supporting the hypothesis.
<Eliezer> there is already an industry; I don't expect an industry that sells technological projects.
<BJKlein> not by chemical.. but by computer interface
<Eliezer> er, working technological prospects
<Ingmeme> BJKlein: Ten years? Imma say no.
<MichaelA> It's hard to get FDA clearances for brain-computer interfacing, unfortunately
<oldmaybe> hahah create cybogs wow I thought you were being serious bjklein
<MichaelA> Meaning that research and progress is seriously held back
<Ocsrazor> actually its not too bad suprisingly enough Michael
<oldmaybe> why do you need computer interface the brain doesnt need such devices
<Ingmeme> BJKlein: Considering nobody has any idea how to do get it done even experimentally today, I can't see it becoming commercial in ten years.
<BJKlein> that's a concern, is there ways around the FDA problem
<MRA> BJK: offshore.
<oldmaybe> you are talking about puting a computer chip in the brain?
* BJKlein nods
<oldmaybe> why
<Ingmeme> So you can think better/faster.
<oldmaybe> the brain is already so powerful why do you need such devices?
<BJKlein> ever want to add 23 numbers on the fly..
<Ocsrazor> there isn't an entrenched bureacracy for implants yet Michael
<BJKlein> every want to know a foreign language?
<MichaelA> well, that's good
<Ingmeme> oldmaybe: The same reason people buy pocket calculators.
<BJKlein> ever want to spell better than BJKlein?
<Ocsrazor> there is no one who really understands the technology at FDA right now so they are just giving things a pass without too much debate...
<BJKlein> will there be, or is there already a market for BCI tech?
<oldmaybe> why not take such things as ginko to help the brain function better?
<Ocsrazor> BUT
<Ingmeme> oldmaybe: Because ginko doesn't work well enough.
<Ocsrazor> there may be some serious resistance in the future
<oldmaybe> have you ever taking ginko before... anyone?
<Ocsrazor> yes oldmaybe, its effects are minimal
<Ingmeme> oldmaybe: Tell me the squareroot of 51134 down to six decimal places.
<oldmaybe> have you ever taking ginnko leaves and chewed them up... not taking worthless pills
<Ingmeme> oldmaybe: My TI-89 can do that in a fraction of a second. If your ginko biloba can do that, I'll start taking it.
<oldmaybe> who cares ingmeme
<John_Ventureville> yes, I took it but it probably just had a placebo effect
<oldmaybe> i challenge you to get raw ginko leaves and chew them up. you will feel increased brain circulation, especially if combined with cayenne pepper
<BJKlein> oldmaybe, one had to think a little further out..
<BJKlein> has*
<oldmaybe> I am just saying why put a computer chip in your brain ... if were are not born with one, you are messing with nature
<BJKlein> chemical boost is good.. but people will want more, no?
<Ingmeme> oldmaybe: Good. Nature needs messed with every now and then.
<Ingmeme> Keep its ego in check.
<BJKlein> oldmaybe, what is natural?
<Ocsrazor> increased brain circulation has a minimal effect on general intelligence, there have been many studies on this
<John_Ventureville> oldmaybe, I have to admit I have always been fascinated by the concept of the "mentat" from the Dune SF series
<oldmaybe> cleaning out six to ten pounds of rotting material out of the average person's colon, which every major natural doctor has, and thus eliminating 80-90 percent of any diseasae
<Ocsrazor> nature is a null term as BJ was pointing out
<oldmaybe> has anybody tried doing that?
<Ocsrazor> exercise is far more effective at cleaning out the colon than any substance you can take, period
<oldmaybe> what about eliminating cooked food, because it contains huge free-radicals?
<oldmaybe> have you ever done a colon cleanse ocsrazor?
<John_Ventureville> have serious studies been conducted on the raw food diet plans?
<BJKlein> getting back to increasing intelligence... if one was smarter, they'd know more about how to take care of themselves, no?
<Ocsrazor> I dont need one oldmaybe
<oldmaybe> john i dont think so because like I said, it would be shown that it is far superiour to all diets
<Ocsrazor> I have no elimination difficulties and eat extremely healthy
<BJKlein> smartness may be increased by ginko.. but why stop there?
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<John_Ventureville> I personally have a fascination with alternative medicine but it does tend to be overhyped in areas and with it's share of snake oil salesmen.
<oldmaybe> bjklein no i do not think so because the average person is a sheep willing to accept anything they are told and not try anything new
<oldmaybe> ocsrazor why not?
<BJKlein> why should we limit incresed intellignece to all because some people are sheeps?
<Randolfe> Super intelligent sheep might ber very dangerous.
<BJKlein> bahhha
<Ocsrazor> oldmaybe, I spent four years as an analyst sorting what was true and what was false in the anti-aging/supplements realm
<oldmaybe> unless you eat only fruit and green vegs you will have 6 to 10 pounds of stuff in your colon, ever increasing for your whole life
<John_Ventureville> I love SF novels which focus on mass IQ raising
* OmniDo joins the chat
<BJKlein> yo, mr Alcor!
<OmniDo> =)
<Ocsrazor> that is absolutely untrue oldmaybe
<BJKlein> OmniDo made a recent Alcor visit
<oldmaybe> why oscrazor?
<BJKlein> with future wife in toe
<BJKlein> tow sorry
<Ocsrazor> there has never been any reputable work to show that
<Ocsrazor> I looked for it, it just isn't out there
<John_Ventureville> like Charles Platt's "Freezone" which has a sexually transmitted virus which infects the brain and gives you a bonus 50 IQ points
<oldmaybe> so instead of cleaning stuff out of your body you will just freeze your brain and clone a new body, is that right?
<Ocsrazor> you could easily prove that with an MRI
<Ocsrazor> no, I don't plan on dieing
