12 replies to this topic

[Berserker]

Here is the link:

http://forum.rickros...12,64749,page=7

There are many good arguments, maybe this is interesting to anyone here.

[Cyberbrain]

That site is pretty much the leading (and only) website that considers Alcor to be a cult. First time I heard some of those arguments - most of them the delusions of a conspiracy theorist.

There's a lot of hype and controversy revolving around Alcor, some of it true, most of it probably false. I for one wouldn't object to tougher regulations and auditing.

However, to consider cryonics in general as a cult or a foolish endeavor is foolish in its self.

To me cryonics is the most logical course if one dies. To argue against cryonics is pointless.

[brokenportal]

However, to consider cryonics in general as a cult or a foolish endeavor is foolish in its self.

It would be as if people accused the cremation business of being a cult.

[Cyberbrain]

As for the Society Of Venturism, I don't know much about it. But I heard that it was mainly created to prevent cryo patients from undergoing an autopsy.

It's not really a religious or even spiritual organization (despite its looks). It was just created for legal purposes to prevent autopsies.

[advancedatheist]

The site's moderator displays an anti-cryonics bias, and doesn't let people present a case for it. The poster called The Anticult, like Larry Johnson, has written absurd things about David Pizer and the Venturists, despite the work we did to raise money for William O'Rights's suspension last year.

BTW, Mr. Pizer had surgery yesterday to cryoablate a possibly malignant mass on his right kidney.

[EmbraceUnity]

AdvancedAtheist,

I am not a cryonics supporter, nor am I opposed to it, but it is telling that you were banned from that site despite making very sensible posts. That site clearly has no credibility.

[enoonsti]

AdvancedAtheist,

I am not a cryonics supporter, nor am I opposed to it, but it is telling that you were banned from that site despite making very sensible posts. That site clearly has no credibility.

I was also banned from their website. But perhaps rightly. I cussed a lot.

[Shannon Vyff]

I've read through all those pages (most recently a month ago though, to see updates from the LJ fallout), and I've found many points interesting-but never have jumped into countering things there. Probably the main reason is that it would take a lot of time, and a lot of patience -secondly I'm not sure if any good would come of it-if I'd be able to help broaden understanding.

[Luna]

I didn't see much of a reason to bother with it, it's pretty much "cryonics is a plan to make a lot of money out of innocent people" conspiracy at most and once you believe it, coming and say that it is an attempt to save live you are either seen as naive or a liar.

[David Styles]

However, to consider cryonics in general as a cult or a foolish endeavor is foolish in its self.

It would be as if people accused the cremation business of being a cult.

Indeed! And those undertakers, always dressing in black and driving around in expensive cars - very suspicious

More seriously: Funerals cost lots of money, and ultimately horribly disfigure the deceased's body, and yet are still claimed by many go be the path to eternal life despite the lack of evidence. I don't see much that can be argued against cryonics that can't be equally applied to funerals.

As for the ridiculous allegations against Alcor and the Venturists... Perhaps Johnson et al should enter ImmInst's creative writing competition! They seem pretty good at imaginative fiction.

[JediMasterLucia]

A few months ago I had read the topic on that forum. It is stupid to think that cryonics is a cult or a scam.
They didn't did their homework well :S

-secondly I'm not sure if any good would come of it-if I'd be able to help broaden understanding.

I think they won't listen. they are too narrow minded.

[The Immortalist]

http://forum.rickros...12,64749,page=1

Wow that anticult guy sure does come across as a biased A-hole, but he sure does have a lot of good points that are worthy of discussing.

Some of his points that I'm worried and want to learn more about are these:

• The possibility of when you donate your body the cryonics orgs use a legal loop hole so that means your body is legally donated to science and they can do away with it anyway they like such as donating it to medical schools to practice sugery on and stuff instead of cryopreserving it.
  
  Quote: (of course the problem is that the cryonics people are fighting any new regulation, and the fact is people have donated their dead body under the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act, and thus the cryonics company can freeze-unfreeze, slice, dice, cut-up, and do experiments on the body, and even dispose of the body, as they see fit, within the law. This is something cryonics people fail to understand, as they have been deceived. Once you donate your LEGALLY DEAD body under that Act, "Body donation is not regulated through licensure and inspection by the federal government and most states", and they know this of course, which is why they can do what they want, and hire untrained people to do the butchery...I mean the cryonics. Its madness).
  
  
• The possibility that cryonics practitioners are not medically trained and that they actually destroy the body.
  
• The possibility of the cryonisists targeting peoples fear of death to reap a huge profit.
  
• The cost of cryonics
  
  Quote: So this is what has drawn the professional SALESMEN like a David Pizer into the cryonics business. he is a businessman, and appears to be part of a family owned car upholstery shop? (see below). They know MASSIVE profit-margins when they see them, especially connected to tax-free religions, ability to buy/sell/develop land, capital gains exemptions, write-downs, etc. (if you want to get rich quicker, start a religion, its a gold mine, Venturism is a cryonics religion).
  It could be that the profit-margin for a cryonics freezing is well over 500%. Even if it cost 20K total, and they charged 150K, that is 700%. That does not include all of the other financial schemes they are running on top of this, like with the trusts.
  So the actual cost is something that needs to be figured out by honest people.
  
  Why do they charge what they charge? Because that is how much life-insurance pays-out with a small monthly payment. Its marketing, all they have to do is convince people to pay $30-40 a month, to start, and then they start the upselling process.
  The bottom line is the few main players in the business of cryonics, see it as a business opportunity to possibly become the worlds first cryonics billionaires. If they can make it into a Baby Boomer trend, and take a bit of the funeral business, they can make a fortune in that niche.
  If they can find a few guys who are superrich, who turn over millions/billions to them at death, then they are set. That clearly is the ultimate goal, to build multibillion dollar cryonics companies, which are controlled by groups like the Church of Venturism, and tax-exempt religions. Its the same model as Scientology, and all these other sects.
  Its amazing that more people in the cryonics biz refuse to see that reality, they are just blinded by their beliefs and close their minds to the facts. Of course, the guys running it make a very serious effort to conceal that reality, as one can see in their own writings.
  
  Below is a public listing from Cortera Business Research Reports, of course it may not be accurate.
  ________________________________________
  [start.cortera.com]
  PIZER FAMILY INVESTMENTS INC is in the Top, Body, and Upholstery Repair Shops and Paint Shops industry in PHOENIX, AZ. This company currently has approximately 10 to 20 employees and annual sales of $500,000 to $999,999.
  
  Contact Information
  ***** N CAVE CREEK RD
  PHOENIX, AZ
  
  Key Facts
  Location Type: Single Location
  Industry: Top, Body, and Upholstery Repair Shops and Paint Shops
  Year Founded: 1992
  Sales Range: $500,000 to $999,999
  Employees: 10 to 20
  People at this Company
  Name Title
  DAVID PIZER PRESIDENT
  _________________________________

[bgwowk]

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,64749,page=1

Wow that anticult guy sure does come across as a biased A-hole, but he sure does have a lot of good points that are worthy of discussing.

Some of his points that I'm worried and want to learn more about are these:

[list]
[*]The possibility of when you donate your body the cryonics orgs use a legal loop hole so that means your body is legally donated to science and they can do away with it anyway they like such as donating it to medical schools to practice sugery on and stuff instead of cryopreserving it.

That is not going to happen with any of the present cryonics organizations because they are run by people who want cryonics for themselves. Such a fraud would be suicidal because it would undermine the system of care that leaders need for themselves, their friends, and own family. Not only that, but such misconduct would lead to massive civil liability. In the 1970s the Cryonics Society of California collapsed, and tried to use the anatomical gift as a loophole to evade civil liability for failing to maintain patients at cryogenic temperature. The defense totally failed.

In fact, most of the media controversies around cryonics for the past three decades have involved extraordinarily legal actions to have people cryopreserved when others obstructed cryopreservation, or tried to remove patients from cryopreservation. Losing money to keep people cryopreserved is the opposite of taking money and not following through with cryopreservation. Cryonics critics sometimes exhibit a sort of schizophrenia, alternating between calling cryonicists crazy fanatics one minute, and frauds motivated by money the next. This is indicative of the real objection to cryonics, and motive to regulate cryonics, being something other than concern over whether clients are getting what they pay for. If protecting interests of cryonicists were the objective of past regulatory efforts involving cryonics, cryonicists would more broadly support them. However this will not happen as long as the main political constituencies for cryonics regulation are people who don't want cryonics for themselves.

[*] The possibility that cryonics practitioners are not medically trained and that they actually destroy the body.

Scientists, physicians, and other medical professionals have been involved in cryonics in various capacities since its earliest days. Someday when the field is large enough, and popular enough, perhaps there can be legal mandates for medical professionals in various roles. For now, the organizations do the best they can within the constraints of the resources they have and people who are willing to get involved.

Historically, debates between cryonics organizations about what procedures should be done have dwarfed in biological significance the question of who does them. For example, whether field cooling, medication administration, or blood substitution are done are much more fundamental questions than who does them. With availability of professionals for cryonics as limited as it is, and the effects of warm ischemia being as bad as they are, there is strong justification for early intervention by whomever can be reasonably trained to do it. Like medical emergencies, the biological cost of waiting for professionals to arrive on scene in cryonics (which by nature cannot be scheduled) can be very high.

[*] The possibility of the cryonisists targeting peoples fear of death to reap a huge profit.

See above explanation of who runs present cryonics organizations. Anyone who looks into information that is readily available can see that cryonics consumes the resources of its leaders rather enriching them. It's been that way for 40 years.

That David Pizer was targeted on that forum as a putative cryonics profiteer is especially absurd. Pizer was historically one of the largest DONORS to Alcor. He was extremely generous with both his time and money, and instrumental in Alcor's successful move to Arizona in the 1990s. He never operated or profited from any cryonics business I am aware of.