42 replies to this topic

[TigerMask]

I'm not sure I'd take IP6; I don't test my iron levels often. When they were tested they were in the medium range. At the moment, due to a lack of funds, I can't be bothered with supplements that aren't going to directly and positively effect my mental health.

The list on the first page can be disregarded; I'm not taking anything right now. I'll reorder the magnesium soon, and resume taking magnesium, D3, K2, and maybe a little calcium. I may throw in some B1, B3 (niacinamide), B6, B12, and inositol. Taurine, glycine, and theanine may be used for sleep, but I'll have to test these out again to see how I react to them without the Subutex in my system. Catnip and/or chamomile tea may also be used when I have trouble sleeping.

[chrono]

Thank you for the links chrono; after reading all that, I think that waiting 7 days after complete discontinuation of the Subutex will be sufficient (in the past I have read that one has to wait two weeks -- that seems way too long). I read a report where the subject took LDN at night, suboxone (which includes naloxone as you may know) in the daytime, and while it didn't seem to send them into withdrawals, the experience was still unpleasant -- though I forget the exact reason and the exact negative effects experienced (this is from a post on the SomniForum; perhaps I'll look it up later). Even if I could take them at the same time, I'd rather discontinue the Subutex first -- I have had many odd side effects, some that are hard to describe, and I'd like to be free of it; it is, after all, an addictive medication just like full opioid agonists. I talk about this more here: http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=411387

Chrono, I see you are a member of the Social Anxiety Support Forum. I just registered there as well, under the same name. Have you tried LDN, or do you ever plan on trying it? From what I understand, for most people, the benefits for anxiety are limited.

Good luck coming off the buprenorphine. It's a strange drug, I imagine it must feel subjectively weird to be on all the time. I imagine it's easier to stop using opiates if you have something else to fill the gap—if not as euphoric as opiates, at least something to give yourself a break from sobriety when you need it. Maybe kava, kratom or phenibut?

As for LDN, I've never tried it. I've been on tramadol for the last 2 years due to chronic back pain. I read that ultra-low doses of naltrexone (something like 0.05-0.2mg, IIRC) can help with opioid tolerance, and I was thinking about that for a while. But I'm currently leaning toward memantine for that purpose, as I think it could help with some anxiety and maybe even attentional problems as well. If not for that, I would think about LDN, as it sounds like it's indicated for some general health issues. I couldn't find anything about effectiveness for anxiety, though, social or otherwise.

My social anxiety is kind of strange, and I'm not sure how applicable my experience is to other sufferers. It doesn't manifest as actual feelings of anxiety very often, but presents itself more like a task avoidance issue. It probably has to do more with ingrained behaviors due to living in some tragic circumstances, and then isolation due to pain issues, for much of my mid-20s. The most effective treatment for my SA is adderall. Benzos and even opiates helped a lot as well. Quitting marijuana

Whatever the source, I still have some trouble prompting myself into certain social situations, and not being too quiet around people I don't know very well. Still looking for supplements to help with this. I've found substances which increase dopamine to help; it's worth checking out Lufega's Manganese thread on SAS. NALT is also very pleasant for me in this regard. While these don't alter my frame of mind drastically, they provide a subtle emotional warmth that makes socializing easier. Transdermal nicotine also had this nice dopaminergic effect for me, but I've stopped using it due to concerns about cancer which were outlined in another thread.

I still have a lot of things to investigate when I have a little more money; right now I'm more worried about attentional and especially motivational problems, and have been concentrating on that this month. I'm excited to try Phenibut for a more acute social lubricant; for a more long-term and daily assistance with anxiety in general, I would be inclinced to try afobazol (and maybe agomelatine and tianeptine), and especially Selank.

Edited by chrono, 03 June 2010 - 07:26 PM.

[health_nutty]

Have you tried lithium orotate for your anxiety/depression?

[TigerMask]

Chrono, I didn't even realize you posted a reply on the 3rd! Some of these changes to the forum are frustrating me. And, unfortunately, at the moment, my response is likely to be brief as I'm quite tired -- the last few days for me have been hell. This is my second time trying to come off the Subutex in just about two months, and it is an unfortunate fact that drug withdrawal (any drug) typically results in a drastic magnification of my mental illness. And as such, this experience has been a bit debilitating. Fortunately, I stopped the medicine a little more gingerly this time and it has been a bit easier than last month's attempt.

Anyway, LDN. I understand that its benefits for anxiety are limited. The fact is, if it does have a positive effect on my depression -- even a slight one -- than I will be happy with the results and continue taking the medication, as I've never taken a medication that has helped my depression, and at this moment, it gradually seems to be getting worse (though this could be an affect of the Sub withdrawal). I'll be giving LDN (from a compounding pharmacy) a try in the next few weeks; I just want to give the Subutex a chance to get out of my system. Perhaps it will help for motivational issues (chronic laziness?), those aches and pains that may or may not be attributable to depression, and the general feeling that my mental illness is more physical than mental (autoimmune disease?). Perhaps not. Time will tell and I will report my findings to this forum; hopefully beginning with the aftermath of the very first dose.

There are still other medications left to try, though. MAOIs, dopamine effecting medications, and well.. I'm sure there's more I haven't tried. I also need to improve my diet, exercise, and expose myself to uncomfortable situations -- all things that are easier said than done. I'm interested in people combining LDN with other (more traditional) medications, as it seems like a possible way to treat treatment-resistant depression (which I have).

I've tried phenibut in the past, but really.. I'd rather just stay away from it for a few reasons (the standard reasons). Kratom typically affects me strangely, like a dirty buzz and a few unpleasant side effects. Still, with Kratom, I do have quite extensive experience trying to help fill that particular gap that you speak of. It just never worked the way I hoped it would, despite the fact that I wasn't really expecting much.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences with social anxiety, chrono. I think I will go more in depth concerning my own experiences in the future, but more likely on the other forum (SAS). Adderall was quite effective for my anxieties as well.

Actually, manganese should arrive in a few days... So we'll see how that works for me. I've been following Lufega's thread on the social anxiety forum.

[TigerMask]

Have you tried lithium orotate for your anxiety/depression?

Lithium orotate will be arriving in a few days as well. I will try it eventually.

[chrono]

I hope the time passes quickly for you! I'm more or less in the same place, trying to figure out which of the many options to experiment with. I think it's deprenyl.

I second the LiOr idea. I just started it, and it's done wonders for this almost subconscious low-level anxiety I have, which interferes with sociability and my motivation to do things I perceive as difficult because of social anxiety or attentional hurdles.

[TigerMask]

I'm going to get tested for Lyme. Over the last decade, New Jersey has ranked 3rd in the US in the number of reported Lyme disease cases, and I used to live by a tick infested forest. My grandmother likely caught the disease from living by the same forest. I've been bitten by more than a few ticks over the years, though not recently.

The fact is, I have a lot of odd little symptoms and generally feel quite ill for no apparent reason. My situation often feels more physical than mental, but I have a very hard time explaining this to anyone; and everyone thinks most of my problems are purely mental. I deal with mental illnesses (depression, anxiety, and social anxiety) and I've yet to find a satisfactory medication for what ails me.

So that's that. If anyone living in New Jersey could point me in the direction of a good Lyme doctor, I would be forever grateful. How do I go about finding a Lyme doctor? Is this just like finding any other doctor?

In the meantime, I will be seeing a psychiatrist.

My LDN experiments have been put on hold. I had to go back on the buprenorphine for fear of relapse. I was having odd symptoms: painful tingling and pressure (pins and needles) up and down my arms and on the back of my neck. These were often accompanied by an intense feeling of heat. I was also having stomach pains. This was 15 or so days into the withdrawal! That's normal, buprenorphine withdrawals take a long time -- but the symptoms seemed incredibly odd. I thought it was my liver acting up or something. Really, kind of scary. Also of note: my stools have been really small and pebble-like or otherwise just plain unhealthy looking; that's the best way I can describe it. Something just felt very wrong with my body, but perhaps it was the withdrawals. Who knows. It'll be good to get some liver tests done. I really don't want to be on buprenorphine forever.

So, as far as supplements, it goes like this:
Jarrow Carotenall
Vitamin C, Ascorbic Acid
NOW D3
Jarrow FamilE
B1
Niacinamide 250 mg (As needed for anxiety)
B6
Inositol 1500 mg (As needed for anxiety)
B12 Sublingual
Taurine
Magnesium Malate

Jarrow Milk Thistle Extract (Liver)
NOW Artichoke Extract (Liver)
NOW Dandelion Root (Liver)
Jarrow NAC Sustain (I haven't started this one yet)

Bluebonnet Whey Protein (Immune System and liver health)

I also have lithium, manganese, and a few other things that I've yet to try.

This is the simple, abbreviated version. As my regimen grows and I develop a set routine, I will update this into a more detailed and organized list.

Has anyone tried Chlorella? I have a bit of that too. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is potentially dangerous, but I can't remember where. Perhaps I was thinking of a different algae.

Edited by TigerMask, 02 July 2010 - 02:18 PM.

[TigerMask]

I hope the time passes quickly for you! I'm more or less in the same place, trying to figure out which of the many options to experiment with. I think it's deprenyl.

I second the LiOr idea. I just started it, and it's done wonders for this almost subconscious low-level anxiety I have, which interferes with sociability and my motivation to do things I perceive as difficult because of social anxiety or attentional hurdles.

Honestly, Chrono, I'd be more interested in trying Parnate than Deprenyl. Deprenyl has really lost the potential appeal it once held for me -- the reports of anger and increased anxiety really put the nail in the coffin. I likely won't be trying it. If a doctor was willing to prescribe the patch, well, I might consider it. It just seems way too anxiogenic, especially for someone with social anxiety.

Parnate and Nardil are the two that I'm interested in. The problem is finding a doctor that is willing to prescribe one of those to me.

I'm not completely sure why I'm leaning towards Parnate, but perhaps it's the stimulation factor.

I'll be giving lithium orotate a try soon. Manganese too. I hope both of these together aren't too hard on the kidneys. I already have trouble urinating, though it's most likely completely due to anxiety.

Somewhere on this forum, in a long ago post, I call Chrono Trigger the best video game ever.

[TigerMask]

LITHIUM
I think I like lithium orotate. It seems to agree quite well with me. I am often a bit irritable and so far this seems to be calming. Things that would normally bother me seem to be easier to deal with, but I have a few other things in my system (the buprenorphine and a benzo [though I feel better and more calm than I normally would with just a small dose of a benzo]).

I will try it again when my mind and body are free of other factors that could skew my findings.

KIDNEYS
I'm a bit worried about my kidneys with this. I already have trouble urinating quite often, along with random, usually dull stomach pains on both sides. Right now I have a dull pain in my left side stomach that is not all that uncommon (I've experienced it before), but could this be my kidney? I'm trying to drink a lot of water. I didn't take the Dandelion today because it can cause an increase in the side effects of the lithium according to a certain animal study (but I did take the Dandelion yesterday evening and the day before). I took some Milk Thistle extract (Jarrow) this morning, along with 1500 mg of inositol, 250 mg of niacinamide, and around 215 mg of magnesium malate (I was experiencing some anxiety and I thought these things might help). This is my first time taking lithium orotate.


Feel free to respond if you're reading this. Any critique or question is welcome.

ALSO: NAC is next, I think. Just trying to clean my body out with all the abuse it has taken over the years (from acetaminophen and other things). This is a good idea, right?

Edited by TigerMask, 03 July 2010 - 04:38 PM.

[TigerMask]

I've had magnesium tested. It was a blood test, I'm not sure which type. Does this sound like an RBC test? Magnesium was in the normal range, but high. I had been supplementing with it for a while already. Calcium was the same.

No way to know without looking at the test results. It could have been mag serum or mag RBC. RBC is more accurate (or so I've read), although even there it's not 100% accurate.

Cronometer may be the best way to figure out mag/calcium and other mineral intakes.

There are other mag tests, like mag intracellular (which nobody seems to offer) and mag loading tests, but those are a pain to do (24 hr urine)... and not sure if every lab even does that.

The basic stuff I expect any good family doc to do at least once (VAP lipoprotein, hs-c reactive protein, glycated hemoglobin, CBC, vitamin D) + maybe you can convince him/her to throw in a mineral or two, if you can explain a good reason to test. Perhaps just saying you've been supplementing mag/zinc or whatever and want to make sure you aren't killing yourself would be a good enough reason. Or doc will just say stop taking those things and not give the tests... depends a lot on the doctor.

If you complain of fatigue & say thyroid disease runs in your family, you can maybe get thyroid stuff tested. But ask for TSH, free T3, free T4 and antibodies. Testosterone and other hormone things may be in endo territory, like I mentioned before.

Some docs act like each blood test comes out of their own pocket and won't test for anything, while I've had others who more or less test for whatever I ask (within reason). For that type, I go with a list written down with what I want tested and just hand the list to doc. Seems less weird for me that way, so I don't have to rattle out 6+ tests -- it's all written down for her, and all she has to do is copy the tests down.

Isn't there a certain type of doctor I can go to that will be willing to do these tests? Like an orthomolecular doctor or an endocrinologist? I need something that might possibly be covered by my insurance.

I need to be really active with this if I truly want to find an answer; it's just frustrating that most of the people in my life don't understand that my mental issues could be caused by something much more "physical." Or the fact that these issues could be the result of hormonal issues or something other than a "chemical imbalance in the brain."

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's possible that the majority of these issues I deal with can be fixed by the right medication. In fact, I really hope that's the case.

Is there a proven way to find an open minded psychiatrist (specifically, one willing to prescribe an MAOi) or is it all just trial and error?

Edited by TigerMask, 03 July 2010 - 05:18 PM.

[chrono]

Are you doing any kind of taper of the bupe? I'm assuming not, if you're getting those kinds of withdrawal effects. If withdrawal symptoms are forcing you to start up again, think about a dosage taper; probably over a month or more if withdrawals last that long? Less decisive, but may have more chance of success.

I'd ask funk for any advice about finding a lyme doctor, in his regimen thread maybe.

Lithium/Kidneys: It's hard to say if there's any reason for worry. Almost all of the literature is concerned with therapeutic dosages of lithium, the lowest of which is about 10x as much as you get from a 120/5mg LiOr pill. This paper gives a convenient overview of the issue. It suggests that lowering the dose decreases the risk, and mentions getting a serum creatine test once a year. I recall another paper I read yesterday saying that pre-existing disorders were more likely to result in problems, but I can't find it now. It's tempting to say that these doses are so low that it's not going to be an issue, but I really don't know that.

The review mentions that any problems are reversible for a certain amount of time. If you find lithium helpful, and it doesn't cause any acute kidney problems that you can see, I think it's very reasonable to use it for the time being. I'm taking this view, myself; LiOr is helping me in a subtle yet important way that is making it easier to make some important life changes, and get some things in motion. I'm not sure if I want to be on it forever, but for now, it's very cheap and a good tradeoff.

If you're definitely having some kidney trouble, maybe get a referral to a nephrologist? Better to get it looked at before it becomes a major issue.

NAC: This thread has excellent discussion of its safety concerns. I was taking it for a few weeks, but stopped. Seems like there are other antioxidants that don't have as much controversy. Saving it for times when I'm using other substances which may increase oxidation (it also binds to manganese, reducing possible toxicity).

I'm taking green tea extract right now; very good stuff, as long as you don't get into the dosage range that might cause liver problems over a long time. And for general brain health, maybe think about adding fish oil? And something like ashwagandha may help clean up any problems from those 'other things,' and it also has some anxiolytic effects.

Blood tests: Have you asked your GP about it yet? If you say that you want to concentrate on changing your life, becoming healthy, and eliminating possible causes of what's ailing you, I would imagine that they'd be willing. Insurance is another matter; they might not be willing to pay for tests that aren't "very likely" to be the cause of a demonstrable concern. So you'll probably want to do some research and prioritize based on that, and which of the non-covered ones might be worth paying for yourself.

Psychiatrists: Unless you can get a recommendation from a friend, it's pretty much hit-or-miss. They all have different approaches, and different thresholds of what they're willing to prescribe. Frustrating, isn't it?

I feel like I've read some bad reports about nardil and parnate, so I didn't look into them further. Maybe I should. DPR still sounds like a good option to me, unless I react badly to it, in which case it will rapidly become a bad option.

I've had like 4 people mention Chrono Trigger to me this week. I love it, but I'm much more partial to Chrono Cross. It's been about 7 years, I'm feeling like it may be time for a re-play...

[TigerMask]

I'm not sure if I actually have kidney issues; the only thing I really have to go on is occasional trouble urinating, and I believe that can be blamed on my typically high level of anxiety. When I get random dull stomach pains, I get a little more worried. I'm pretty sure these pains are a result of the Subutex/buprenorphine "backing up" my system (I infrequently pass stools when on it -- just like with any opiate), and I really hope I'm right about this. Still, it is worrying that even when I was coming off the medication, my stomach seemed to be in shambles. Stools were small and infrequent, but with opiate withdrawal you expect the very opposite -- it's just a little odd. At the moment, they just look quite unhealthy. That’s been the case for a few weeks to a month.

And yeah, I did do a taper. Not a long taper, but for my last attempt at coming off buprenorphine, I thought the taper was great (I was taking a crumb once a day for a while!)—I thought it was going to be relatively painless. This was not the case; it was a pretty painful experience that ended in a relapse and a return to the safety blanket known as Subutex. This medication—It is not to be taken lightly. If I had a time machine, I would go back and tell myself to avoid it altogether. Or.. I would go back even further and tell myself to avoid drugs altogether and to work a little harder in school!

I think this time I will try taking a crumb (of Subutex) once a day for a while, followed by a crumb every other day. Because of the long half-life of this medication, every other day dosing is reasonable. I may use small doses of Kratom and Valium during the withdrawals. The odd thing is, low doses of buprenorphine are still quite potent, if not just as potent as higher doses. There isn’t a huge difference between 2 mg and 8 mg, and some people may feel better on 2 mg.

So, due to my transgressions (including ingesting large amounts of acetaminophen[the kind included in many pain pills that also contain low doses of strong opioids]), I'm also at risk for liver problems. There's a slim chance that I may have a certain liver issue, but it takes a little while for it to show up on tests. In the meantime, I really should get my liver enzymes tested. Most doctors should be willing to do this.

Anyway, lithium orotate really does seem to help a great deal, so it's likely that I will continue taking it. I do still worry about the possible negative effects of taking lithium orotate and certain other supplements, and I don’t think the possibility is something we should discount, but the fact is, 5 – 10 mg (or even slightly higher) is most likely a safe dosage.

NAC: I haven’t started taking it yet but I will soon. I do understand the safety concerns, but I’ve put some awful things in my body and I feel like NAC is a good way to clean everything up and to start over (perhaps this is flawed thinking?). I’ll probably take it consistently for a few months and then only occasionally after that. I’m pretty dedicated to getting healthy and keeping my body “clean,” especially with the threat of a liver problem. 21 is an odd age to decide to swear off drinking, but I’m pretty sure I’m done with it, along with most other legal or illegal intoxicants.

I am going to add fish oil to my daily regimen. I have a cheap brand – Natrol. Green tea extract is something that was almost included in my last order, but at the last moment, to cut the total cost down a bit, I eliminated it. I could just drink green tea, but it seems to increase my anxiety. I’ve taken Ashwagandha before and I’m not sure if I like how it makes me feel. It is a good suggestion, though, and something that I will experiment with again in the near future. I also have Gotu kola, which seems to be quite similar and will also be subject of near future experiments. Both seem to help repair the brain after opiate withdrawal. I don’t have the sources for that right now, but I could dig them up quite easily.

I just recently had an appointment with a psychiatrist who doesn’t seem to be a drug-pusher. We talked about all the medications I’ve been on, and he stated his opinion that there was little left to try. I politely disagreed. He then asked if there were any medications that I’ve heard about that I’d like to try. I said, politely as possible, that I’ve never been on an MAOi. He was willing to try Parnate or Nardil (the two I mentioned), and he said we’ll discuss it at the next appointment. I’m pretty happy about this.

It looks like it will be up to me which one I try, so I’d better do some research. I sort of look at Nardil first, then remember the whole reformulation debacle. I look at Parnate and question its ability to quell anxiety.

They both can are potentially effective options when one has treatment-resistant depression—when nothing else works. I’ve heard mostly good things about the both of them.

My GP isn’t the most openminded doctor. I could give it one last shot, but I don’t think she’s going to test for everything.

I do appreciate your replies. It’s nice to know that someone is reading my posts.

[TigerMask]

I'm fairly sure that NAC triggered the closest thing to a panic attack I've experienced in a LONG time. I had consumed a certain amount of acetaminophen beforehand (it's combined with the oxycodone, of course [it's a small dose.. I'd get more "pleasure" taking my normal Subutex dosage]), and I decided a few hours later to give the NAC a try -- since, you know, it's used in acetaminophen/paracetamol overdoses -- despite the fact that I had taken less than 2000 mg acetaminophen. The product was Jarrow NAC Sustain.

I can attribute some of the anxiety to the Subutex withdrawal I've recently begun, which isn't really so bad; but, in a dramatic twist, the withdrawal seems to make me freak out about my health in every possible way (which is probably why I took the NAC).

I had to take a small amount of oxycodone after the NAC Sustain's half-life (supposedly 4 hours) was up -- the last bit of the oxycodone and the last anti-anxiety medicine left in my house. I was planning on making it last a little longer; I'd rather withdraw from that than the Subutex with its long half-life and subsequently long withdrawals; but a panic attack is a panic attack and I don't enjoy them one bit, especially since they are so rare to me. So I did what I had to do.

For some strange reason, I had taken 1200 mg of the NAC Sustain. 600 would probably have done just fine.. It's not like there was a drastic issue in the first place.

Then, I was panicking about taking the acetaminophen containing oxycodone so soon after the NAC. I truly thought this was the end of the world and my liver would explode. But really, it will likely protect my liver a bit, though I've found no studies regarding this. And I looked. In moments like these, my mind plays awful tricks on me. It tricks me into thinking everything is the end of the world when it really isn't. I hate this feeling. I still think I've caused some "damage" to my body; but I definitely haven't. People with anxiety disorders are contradictory.

I don't know. This really isn't a good way to feel but perhaps I need to find a new forum for rants like this. My interest in supplements is limited these days and most of the time, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I've accepted now that I won't find the cure to my mental issues by taking one supplement or ten supplements; but still, they can be helpful.

Perhaps I will start a thread in the free speech section of the forum.

Calcium, magnesium malate (the most helpful), D3 (confirmed deficiency), K2 are my main supplements. I'm also taking milk thistle, dandelion root, and artichoke extracts for liver health. I'll likely add in a few minerals for mood support. But that might be it. Oh, and I'm enjoying coconut oil as well, for what it's worth. I like it.

Typing this post has helped me calm down a bit. I really appreciate those of you who have taken the time to read my posts and respond to them. I really do.

By the way.. Tomorrow, I will be starting Parnate. I'm sort of excited, so I hope there's a wonderful placebo effect. :P Considering today's events, I will likely talk to my doctor about a benzo at the next appointment.

Did you guys know Parnate was originally created as an analogue of amphetamine? Interesting.

Anyway, once again, to those of you have been brave enough to admit to having a mental illness on this forum, all I can say is I appreciate you. Keep doing what you do and remember how brave you really are. Don't let your illness hold you back. Be safe; Be well.

Edited by TigerMask, 19 July 2010 - 07:01 AM.