24 replies to this topic

[medicineman]

everytime I read a book about cosmology, I get this severe depression associated with nihilistic thoughts..... The universe being so big, and us being so finite and fragile, what is the point of all of this, if in the end, we are only pixels in a massive screen, that merely change physical phases?????

have you seen the hubble deep field pictures??? sometimes the creationist story seems so much more favorable to the spirits (I don't mean it in any metaphysical sense).... but I just cant buy it....

[Athanasios]

Usually when someone says this, the correct response is to slap them. Then ask them if they care to get another.

[brokenportal]

Dont get depressed, get motivated. Like they say, "Anger is a more useful tool than despair." That reminds me of the, "Rage, rage against the dying of the light," poem.


Maybe the following list is off, or wrong, but Ive been testing it, and it still seems like a strong list to me. If you make the big 8 your point, then you will automatically go about setting up your will power to help try to make it a reality for all of us.

The big 8, to know:

- the nature of "infinity"
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy

[Cyberbrain]

everytime I read a book about cosmology, I get this severe depression associated with nihilistic thoughts..... The universe being so big, and us being so finite and fragile, what is the point of all of this, if in the end, we are only pixels in a massive screen, that merely change physical phases?????

have you seen the hubble deep field pictures??? sometimes the creationist story seems so much more favorable to the spirits (I don't mean it in any metaphysical sense).... but I just cant buy it....

For me it's the opposite. I actually get very excited knowing how large and complex the universe is and how small we are. It gives me purpose to strive for something that is larger than me.

I awe at the beauty of the cosmos. I look to the heavens and dream of an ever expanding and evolving future for our civilization and one's self.

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

"We can only engineer our freedom from death, not pray for it ... having invented the gods we can turn into them." - Alan Harrington

[Quasar]

I find the study of cosmology and particle physics - ie the very large and the very small - to be the most exhilarating of conscious endeavours, because it demonstrates how a tiny speck of flesh on a far flung planet somewhere in space has the power and nous to contemplate spatial and temporal immensities and microscopic dimensions - and the supreme wonder that the possibility of immortality engenders.

.

Edited by Quasar, 12 January 2010 - 01:34 AM.

[Esoparagon]

Why is being small inherently bad. Why is being a small part of something beautifully grand something to get upset about? I don't get that mentality at all. lol

[Luna]

I felt VERY SCARED when my boyfriend showed me photos showing the size of planets.
Earth is TINY and we are even more then I saw planets 1000 size of earth!!! that's SO SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I am even more scared of the future, energy, our lives, will the universe end?

[JLL]

Usually when someone says this, the correct response is to slap them. Then ask them if they care to get another.

LOL, I'm gonna try that.

But yeah, that doesn't depress me, it inspires me. What would depress me would be knowing I'm going to die and the universe doesn't give a damn. But if I have a chance to live forever and explore the outer reaches of the galaxies...

[medicineman]

Usually when someone says this, the correct response is to slap them. Then ask them if they care to get another.

LOL, I'm gonna try that.

But yeah, that doesn't depress me, it inspires me. What would depress me would be knowing I'm going to die and the universe doesn't give a damn. But if I have a chance to live forever and explore the outer reaches of the galaxies...

but the universe doesn't give a damn.. I am reminded of Mersaults character in the Stranger, when he states that his lack of emotion comes from 'benign indifference of the universe', and that during the end, he feels 'brotherly with the universe' since like him, the universe does not exhibit any care or sway for anything or anyone in it....

[JLL]

I know it doesn't, but as long as I'm there to give a damn about the universe, I'm good.

Dying in a universe that doesn't care about me = bad
Living in a universe that doesn't care about me = good

[Luna]

Usually when someone says this, the correct response is to slap them. Then ask them if they care to get another.

LOL, I'm gonna try that.

But yeah, that doesn't depress me, it inspires me. What would depress me would be knowing I'm going to die and the universe doesn't give a damn. But if I have a chance to live forever and explore the outer reaches of the galaxies...

but the universe doesn't give a damn.. I am reminded of Mersaults character in the Stranger, when he states that his lack of emotion comes from 'benign indifference of the universe', and that during the end, he feels 'brotherly with the universe' since like him, the universe does not exhibit any care or sway for anything or anyone in it....

There is a problem with this statement.

The universe does not "not give a damn" due to the reason the universe most probably can't give a damn, it's not a conscious being - probably.
So you shouldn't care what the universe cares or doesn't care about because the universe cannot care, it's void.

It's just like people saying nature does this, nature does that.. nature doesn't do anything, nature is just a group, a category which we fit things into.

[medicineman]

Usually when someone says this, the correct response is to slap them. Then ask them if they care to get another.

LOL, I'm gonna try that.

But yeah, that doesn't depress me, it inspires me. What would depress me would be knowing I'm going to die and the universe doesn't give a damn. But if I have a chance to live forever and explore the outer reaches of the galaxies...

but the universe doesn't give a damn.. I am reminded of Mersaults character in the Stranger, when he states that his lack of emotion comes from 'benign indifference of the universe', and that during the end, he feels 'brotherly with the universe' since like him, the universe does not exhibit any care or sway for anything or anyone in it....

There is a problem with this statement.

The universe does not "not give a damn" due to the reason the universe most probably can't give a damn, it's not a conscious being - probably.
So you shouldn't care what the universe cares or doesn't care about because the universe cannot care, it's void.

It's just like people saying nature does this, nature does that.. nature doesn't do anything, nature is just a group, a category which we fit things into.

I didn't mean the universe didn't give a damn about me, in the same sense that some conscious beings don't or do give a damn. I meant it more in the lines of, the workings of the universe seem absurd to me.. What is the difference between us, which are just random molecules attached to each other in some way, and another random bunch of molecules in Pluto? there is none really, except our configuration makes us think we are special, but in the end, everything is just a bunch of molecules in some configuration. our configuration isn't really that special, its only us (human subjectivity and a massive ego) who make it special, and not anything 'god given'... this whole idea of us being more special than anything else is a load of crap imo....

i mean, in the end, there is no intrinsic value to anything.... is that not obviously true??

[forever freedom]

Usually when someone says this, the correct response is to slap them. Then ask them if they care to get another.

LOL, I'm gonna try that.

But yeah, that doesn't depress me, it inspires me. What would depress me would be knowing I'm going to die and the universe doesn't give a damn. But if I have a chance to live forever and explore the outer reaches of the galaxies...

but the universe doesn't give a damn.. I am reminded of Mersaults character in the Stranger, when he states that his lack of emotion comes from 'benign indifference of the universe', and that during the end, he feels 'brotherly with the universe' since like him, the universe does not exhibit any care or sway for anything or anyone in it....

There is a problem with this statement.

The universe does not "not give a damn" due to the reason the universe most probably can't give a damn, it's not a conscious being - probably.
So you shouldn't care what the universe cares or doesn't care about because the universe cannot care, it's void.

It's just like people saying nature does this, nature does that.. nature doesn't do anything, nature is just a group, a category which we fit things into.

I didn't mean the universe didn't give a damn about me, in the same sense that some conscious beings don't or do give a damn. I meant it more in the lines of, the workings of the universe seem absurd to me.. What is the difference between us, which are just random molecules attached to each other in some way, and another random bunch of molecules in Pluto? there is none really, except our configuration makes us think we are special, but in the end, everything is just a bunch of molecules in some configuration. our configuration isn't really that special, its only us (human subjectivity and a massive ego) who make it special, and not anything 'god given'... this whole idea of us being more special than anything else is a load of crap imo....

i mean, in the end, there is no intrinsic value to anything.... is that not obviously true??

Of course it's not true. We're intelligent, we're conscious, we can change matter at will, and our capacity to change matter is increasing as technology progresses.

Your doubts are irrational, i see no reason to get depressed. Although i'm not religious nor do i believe humans are special in any divine way, i believe our species is still very special. Should we not get stopped by any catastrophe, that is, if we manage to keep our rate of progress for a long enough time, we could eventually control the whole Universe and then whatever else is out there. To be a spectator of the progress of mankind, even our current day to day progress -i find that extremely exciting.

Edited by forever freedom, 12 January 2010 - 06:12 PM.

[Quasar]

Here is something to clear our thoughts on cosmic sizes:

[Nootropic Cat]

The answer, or at least the antidote, comes from an understanding of the logarithmic nature of reality. We have evolved to perceive everything in a linear way, which happens to be useful for planet-bound existence but does not accurately represent the way things work. For example if you hear a sound that has 10x as many decibels as a previous sound you perceive it to be only twice as loud. Instead of thinking 'holy shit, a light year is a long way, but it's still nothing compared to interstellar distances, which are still are nothing compared to intergalactic distances, which are still nothing... arrrrgh!' try breaking it down into orders of magnitude.

At some point we'll comfortably traverse a light year. Then the next technological breakthrough will make 10 light years just as easy. The next will most likely take us out not just to 20 light years, but 100, and so on. Seen in this way the number of significant leaps of evolution to eventually encompass the whole universe become quite manageable. This assumes of course that there aren't inbuilt constraints in the laws of physics, but the same thinking can be applied to everything. We are made up of organs, which are made up of cells, which are made up of mitochondria etc., which are made up of particles, all leading a somewhat self-contained existence and yet dependent on the levels below and integral parts of the levels above. In the same way we are cosmic DNA made out of the same stuff, the same interactions as everything else. You are the Universe, son. This is holism, and it doesn't require you to renounce nihilism. One is Yin to the other's Yang.

[brokenportal]

Here is something to clear our thoughts on cosmic sizes:

Thats a great representation of an epitome of what it means to exist. It reminds me of this:


It also reminds me (Im sure obviously) of fractals. Ive long wondered what it might take for a really really long fractal to be made. The only good ones Ive ever seen loop after like, 5 minutes. I think you could really lose yourself in the profoundness of what it means to exist in this place if you could think while watching a fractal that didnt end for hours.

[bacopa]

Humans have emotions that are just not sound for how smart we are. Put simply the fear of the universe does not feel our pain is an irrational emotion, that should be replaced with, who cares if the universe has no consciousness? It's just there for us, or any being to explore. Now fight that fear with the promise of technological and scientific breakthroughs.

[spaceistheplace]

very cool program, that addresses the concept of "size"........

http://www.nikon.com...scale/index.htm

Edited by spaceistheplace, 13 January 2010 - 01:52 AM.

[acrossuniv1]

yeah compare to the universe, human are so small and almost hopeless. But, there is still possibility of hope, you should look at what you want to achieve and try achieve it, rather than only focus on the negative things

at least, the "singularity" theory states that human will transform into intelligent machine and eventually take over and saturate the universe, that is one possibility.

on the other hand, you yourself, humans, etc, aren't that important. take what reality gives you and enjoy it. maybe you are a bit self-centered?

good luck, life is fun:)

Edited by acrossuniv1, 13 January 2010 - 01:58 AM.

[fatboy]

"The universe does not give a fuck about you. You are a speck in its shit." - Shit Justin's Dad Says, 17 Sep 09

Edited by fatboy, 15 January 2010 - 09:10 PM.

[SiliconAnimation]

everytime I read a book about cosmology, I get this severe depression associated with nihilistic thoughts..... The universe being so big, and us being so finite and fragile, what is the point of all of this, if in the end, we are only pixels in a massive screen, that merely change physical phases?????

have you seen the hubble deep field pictures??? sometimes the creationist story seems so much more favorable to the spirits (I don't mean it in any metaphysical sense).... but I just cant buy it....

Read Nietzsche or study Buddhism. Have a shot of vodka and post us in the morning.

[SiliconAnimation]

"What has happened, at bottom? The feeling of valuelessness was reached with the realization that the overall character of existence may not be interpreted by means of the concept of "aim," the concept of "unity," or the concept of "truth." Existence has no goal or end; any comprehensive unity in the plurality of events is lacking: the character of existence is not "true," is false. One simply lacks any reason for convincing oneself that there is a true world. Briefly: the categories "aim," "unity," "being" which we used to project some value into the world--we pull out again; so the world looks valueless.

Suppose we realize how the world may no longer be interpreted in terms of these three categories, and that the world begins to become valueless for us after this insight: then we have to ask about the sources of our faith in these three categories. Let us try if it is not possible to give up our faith in them. Once we have devaluated these three categroies, the demonstration that they cannot be applied to the universe is no longer any reason for devaluating the universe.

Conclusion: The faith in these categories of reason is the cause of nihilism. We have measured the value of the world according to categories that refer to a purely fictitious world.

Final conclusion: All the values by means of which we havetried so far to render the world estimable for ourselves and which then proved inapplicable and therefore devaluated the world--all these values are, psychologically considered, the results of certian perspectives of utility, designed to maintain and increase human constructs of domination--and they have been falsely projected into the essence of things. What we find here is still the hyperbolic naivete of man: positing himself as the meaning and measure of the value of things."

- Nietzsche, The Will to Power: Decline of Cosmological Values



What he's basically trying to say is that, just because the ideas you use to judge and interact with the world are totally useless, doesn't make them totally useless. I know, it's hard to grasp but, you must first smash your idea of what is 'right' and 'wrong' without losing track of what is right and wrong. Better put, there are always more than two answers to a single question.

Once someone explained why an equation always turns out to be 'yes' or 'no' by making use of a coffee machine. After putting in the quarters, the coffee would go through a process and eventually come out of the machine. "Yes" it has come out of the machine. While this is true, it has also moved itself from the top of the machine to the bottom. It has also moved one foot closer to the earth. It has also moved thousands of miles per hour around the circumference of the earth. It is also now reflecting different wavelengths of energy from it's surface.

Nothing can be answered by "yes" or "no". Nietzsche called this "Beyond good and evil" in an era where "yes, no" was an entirely morally-oriented question implemented by the church.

Altogether though, it is entirely nihilistic of you to say that you are feeling depressed and nihilistic. "Feeling" "depressed" and "nihilistic" are all yes'es or - "good," because it is good to be depressed at the failure to realize the truth in the world. As it is good to mourn the dead. Understand that truth is dead, all that is sacred has died and above all "God is dead"

Welcome to reality, you're on your own. =)

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 16 January 2010 - 07:22 AM.

[medicineman]

The Schopenhauerian attitude becomes all too powerful sometimes, and overwhelms any sense of value in my life.....

the shot of vodka, well, that works, but than id have to take another one later :S

I will have a read at Will to Power. I am actually a big fan of Nietszche's writings, but I refrained from reading a Will to Power due to the surrounding controversy around it, the fact that it might be written by his sister, and altered,etc. etc.... Nietzsche makes a point of viciously attacking nihilism, a little bit in all of his work, and it makes sense to me. But the reevaluation of all values is a difficult step. Do I feel more at ease that I am not handcuffed by the judeochristian handcuffs???? Maybe I do. Does reading Nietzsche convince me that to live for 70 years and pass like I never existed, in a massive universe, age of 14 billion years, an easy task to accept mentally?? Nope.

That is excellent though, the paragraphs by Nietzsche, I definitely will have a look now at that book.

[SiliconAnimation]

The Schopenhauerian attitude becomes all too powerful sometimes, and overwhelms any sense of value in my life.....

the shot of vodka, well, that works, but than id have to take another one later :S

I will have a read at Will to Power. I am actually a big fan of Nietszche's writings, but I refrained from reading a Will to Power due to the surrounding controversy around it, the fact that it might be written by his sister, and altered,etc. etc.... Nietzsche makes a point of viciously attacking nihilism, a little bit in all of his work, and it makes sense to me. But the reevaluation of all values is a difficult step. Do I feel more at ease that I am not handcuffed by the judeochristian handcuffs???? Maybe I do. Does reading Nietzsche convince me that to live for 70 years and pass like I never existed, in a massive universe, age of 14 billion years, an easy task to accept mentally?? Nope.

That is excellent though, the paragraphs by Nietzsche, I definitely will have a look now at that book.

The controversy is all hype. Granted it's a late 19th century writing from Germany but, the book recommends expelling anti-semites from Germany and complementing the strength of Jewish identity as well as the sophistication of the French culture and people, not the other way(s) around.

I like to think of a seventy year lifespan as a scientific rip-off as a consequence of the 20th century. There isn't any reason why more funds and openness should be attributed to genetic research. Mankind has yet to bring itself out of a much delayed maturation process before these can be achieved.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 18 January 2010 - 12:07 AM.

[cogitoergosum]

Since we are talking about Nietzsche... Recently I read some of his works and in 'Human All Too Human' he stated that actually there is no sense, value etc. in our lives BUT then he said that your response to the recognition of this fact is dependant on your temperament.

I believe that a man's temperament determines the aftereffect of knowledge; although the aftereffect described above is possible in some natures, I could just as well imagine a different one, which would give rise to a life much more simple, more free of affects than the present one. The old motives of intense desire would still be strong at first, due to old, inherited habit, but they would gradually grow weaker under the influence of cleansing knowledge. Finally one would live among men and with oneself as in nature, without praise, reproaches, overzealousness, delighting in many things as in a spectacle that one formerly had only to fear. One would be free of appearance and would no longer feel the goading thought that one was not simply nature, or that one was more than nature. Of course, as I said, a good temperament would be necessary--a secure, mild, and basically cheerful soul; such a disposition would not need to be on guard for tricks and sudden explosions, and its expressions would have neither a growling tone nor sullenness--those familiar bothersome traits of old dogs and men who have lain a long time chained up. Rather, a man from whom the ordinary chains of life have fallen in such measure that he continues to live on only to better his knowledge must be able to renounce without envy and chagrin much, indeed almost everything, that other men value. He must be content with that free, fearless hovering over men, customs, laws and the traditional evaluations of things, which is for him the most desirable of states. He is glad to communicate his joy in this state, and perhaps he has nothing else to communicate, which is, to be sure, one renunciation, one self-denial the more. But if one nevertheless wants more from him, with a benevolent shake of the head he will indicate his brother, the free man of action, and perhaps not conceal a little scorn: for that man's "freedom" is another matter entirely.

I don't know for sure whether this passage represents Nietzsche's approach towards this issue but obviously it seems to be a kind of a buddhistic approach. And it also supposes chirful disposition and calm state of mind which can be obtained by a healthy life style and everything associated with it so that you wouldn't be depressed by these nihilistic thoughts, you'd rather be thinking as Cyberbrain: "I actually get very excited knowing how large and complex the universe is and how small we are. It gives me purpose to strive for something that is larger than me."