27 replies to this topic

[A941]

Is racism a modern phenomenon, or was it present since the early days of mankind?
The romans have had an black emperor (Macrinus) and even the son of a freed slave (Pertinax) became emperor, also the egyptians made no difference between their "egyptian" pharaos or black pharaos from the south.
The rulers of ancient times married foreign princesses (Alexander the great etc.) to secure the peace or enlarge their empires.

What do you think about that?

[KalaBeth]

What's your standard for "modern?"


Certainly as early as Shakespeare, a white lady marrying a Moor (black) was rather scandalous. [Othello]
In the Middle Ages, you weren't likely to run into anyone of another race unless you were a trader or otherwise far-traveling. But even then, I'd speculate the "in group/out group" dynamic was more religious than racial - I suspect a medieval man would call a Somali Christian brother sooner than a white-skinned Muslim.
Egyptian culture was fairly highly regarded in the ancient world though IIRC.




Finally, remember we here in the US/Western Europe remember a historically rather unusual form of slavery, the effects of which are still lingering in the air any time we talk about race today. The "racism means white/black" is a comparatively modern thing I think.

Back in the ancient world, *anyone* could be a slave - it wasn't necessarily a racial thing.
A good quick overview of that you can get over at Dan Carlin's place.

Is racism a modern phenomenon, or was it present since the early days of mankind?
The romans have had an black emperor (Macrinus) and even the son of a freed slave (Pertinax) became emperor, also the egyptians made no difference between their "egyptian" pharaos or black pharaos from the south.
The rulers of ancient times married foreign princesses (Alexander the great etc.) to secure the peace or enlarge their empires.

What do you think about that?

[Luna]

People quite naturally dislike those who are far from their ideals, disable or very different (which usually connects to "far from their ideals" in a way).

We are afraid of mirrors. A person who doesn't want to be fat might have hard time looking at fat people even if the person is super thin.

[chris w]

Depends on what kind of racism you mean, the "natural" or the "scientific". Ethnic prejudice was here as long as nations have had contact with each other since antiquity, but it wasn't any systematical set of beliefs, more like each culture seeing others' customs as weird. Egyptians did care more about culture and religion but also depicted themselves on reliefs as lighter than Nubians, but darker than Middle Estarners http://en.wikipedia....i/Book_of_Gates. Wiki says that this Macrinus guy was a Berber, I don't think they would qualify for Romans as really black, physically they weren't negroids, since it happened not unoften in those times they had blue eyes and redish hair. After that christianity sort of covered the issue with the biblical story of brotherhood ( from common parents ) of mankind ( which made the case of American Indians a bit tough, but finally it was decided by the church that they too are part of human race and have souls descendant from Adam nad Eve). Of course conquistadors felt superior, they only did not attach any theories to back that.

But it was during the Englightment that more similar to today's racism views were developed ( mostly by a French De Gobineau ), based on assumption that there are inherent traits associated with each member of the traditional three race classification - like whites were supposed to be the natural inventors and conqueres and blacks lazy nad easthetically inclined and so on, also Jewish people ( and sometimes other Semites ) were seen as a distinct race.

Edited by chris w, 08 May 2010 - 05:32 PM.

[Alex Libman]

Racism is yet another problem of collectivism. The people who want to unite others under their rule will always find some common propaganda aesthetic to cling on to: sometimes it's the color of their skin, sometimes its religion (ex. Holy Russia), or language, culture, history, etc. It is individualism and the free market that make all those -isms obsolete! In a free society a person has the freedom to be racist in deciding who he does business with, but being racist is very bad for one's bottom line, especially if most people will boycott / ostracize racist individuals and businesses even if it's not their "race" that's being discriminated against.

I don't even know what race the people I work with online are (unless they tell me, of course, but why would they?) - except of course human. The only reason why I would ever turn down a programming project for personal reasons is political (ex. if the client may be tied to a government agency). Things like ethnicity, religion, height, weight, physical handicap, and even language (i.e. real-time computer translation) make no difference in the (post)modern world. All "rational economic actors" are potential buyers, sellers, business partners, stockholders, freelance service providers, micro-credit backers, etc, etc, etc - whoever makes the best deal gets the part. Discriminating against people based on things they were born into is just plain stupid!

A good quick overview of that you can get over at Dan Carlin's place.

Seconded. Dan Carlin rules!

Edited by Alex Libman, 08 May 2010 - 06:17 PM.

[niner]

I'll toss in a mention of our very deep-seated fear of "other" that probably goes back millions of years to when we lived in small tribes. I say "deep seated" because it appears to have a genetic basis. You may have heard the recent buzz about Williams Syndrome, a genetic abnormality (a multi-gene deletion) that causes a number of problems, but has a very interesting symptom: People who have Williams Syndrome are very friendly and trusting of literally everyone, and have been shown through some means to possess no racial prejudice. If we really want to see racism disappear, then we are going to have to expand our sphere of "non-other" to include everyone in the world. This will be a hell of a lot easier in a couple hundred years when we all look alike due to interbreeding. (All except for immortal holdovers, anyway.)

[e Volution]

I think this is why there is a lot of anti-science going around in the world, cause every man and his dog has his own opinion on these things, and slowly slowly, day by day, science is coming out and essentially saying 'im sorry, nice theory you got there but your wrong, heres the proof [data]'. And I think the debate about racism is just one of those:

April 26, 2010 : Human brain recognizes and reacts to race
The human brain fires differently when dealing with people outside of one's own race, according to new research out of the University of Toronto Scarborough.
http://www.physorg.c...s191502142.html

This research, conducted by social neuroscientists at UofT Scarborough, explored the sensitivity of the "mirror-neuron-system" to race and ethnicity. The researchers had study participants view a series of videos while hooked up to electroencephalogram (EEG) machines. The participants - all white - watched simple videos in which men of different races picked up a glass and took a sip of water. They watched white, black, South Asian and East Asian men perform the task.

Typically, when people observe others perform a simple task, their motor cortex region fires similarly to when they are performing the task themselves. However, the UofT research team, led by PhD student Jennifer Gutsell and Assistant Professor Dr. Michael Inzlicht, found that participants' motor cortex was significantly less likely to fire when they watched the visible minority men perform the simple task. In some cases when participants watched the non-white men performing the task, their brains actually registered as little activity as when they watched a blank screen.

"Previous research shows people are less likely to feel connected to people outside their own ethnic groups, and we wanted to know why," says Gutsell. "What we found is that there is a basic difference in the way peoples' brains react to those from other ethnic backgrounds. Observing someone of a different race produced significantly less motor-cortex activity than observing a person of one's own race. In other words, people were less likely to mentally simulate the actions of other-race than same-race people"

The trend was even more pronounced for participants who scored high on a test measuring subtle racism, says Gutsell.

"The so-called mirror-neuron-system is thought to be an important building block for empathy by allowing people to 'mirror' other people's actions and emotions; our research indicates that this basic building block is less reactive to people who belong to a different race than you," says Inzlicht.

However, the team says cognitive perspective taking exercises, for example, can increase empathy and understanding, thereby offering hope to reduce prejudice. Gutsell and Inzlicht are now investigating if this form of perspective-taking can have measurable effects in the brain.

The team's findings are published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.

To me this is close to the final word on racism. Or close in that any discussion that does not consider it is flawed. Yes, we are wired to have prejudice against those that are different to us. Very strong and obvious evolutionary reasoning behind this. But a defining human characteristic is we can overcome many of our natural inbuilt instincts, desires and motivations just like this one that evidently we all share. I think it is silly to deny this and say we are all equal and race doesn't mean anything, its society, yada yada yada. Yes societal structures and all that affect certain outcomes, but if I am walking in an alley and out of nowhere comes an individual of a noticeably different race (im trying not to do a black/white thing here lol) I will instantly be a bit more on alert or frightened that if he was my own race. If you measured my cortisol or adrenalin levels they would probably reflect this also. I don't think this is cultural conditioning (although obviously it can be), cause I am the not at all racist, and on the contrary in my past most violent situations I have been involved in were with other whities. I also don't think its really that politically incorrect to say all Asians look the same. Obviously I do not think they all look the same, but certainty I find a noticeable difference remembering faces, etc than members of my own race. I used to feel almost guilty about this, but then one day a Chinese friend of mine told me a story of his family members and others who were being targeted repeatably for robbers. Apparently the police had said they were being targeted because the older immigrated individuals had a really difficult time describing the criminals, so they could not do good forensic sketches and whatnot, haha so it goes both ways! I feel we really need to acknowledge this stuff, to somehow incorporate this into how we introduce the concept of race and racism to children perhaps.

[Kolos]

Egyptian culture was fairly highly regarded in the ancient world though IIRC.

But at the same time Egyptians were discriminated by Hellenic administration since the times of Alexander and their culture was slowly destroyed.
There were many stereotypes related with ethnicity in the ancient times and many of them were related with appearance, antisemitism also dates back to this period (mostly from the time after destruction of the Second Temple when it become a part of the imperial propaganda). There were many signs of racism in Roman Empire e.g. in 370 Valentinianus I forbig mixed (Barbaro-Roman) marriages and later in 408 genocide of Barbarians in the Roman army started with the execution of Stilicho. But it wasn't related to race as we understand it today, which is a product of colonialism and later Darwins theory of evolution(indirectly) but similar attitudes are probably as old as humanity.

[ken_akiba]

I feel that I should say something here but don't know what :-)

[firespin]

Racism is really a form of collectism and one of the techniques used by those in power to control the massess. Alot of it is also from stereotypes promoted from ignorant.

I think this is why there is a lot of anti-science going around in the world, cause every man and his dog has his own opinion on these things, and slowly slowly, day by day, science is coming out and essentially saying 'im sorry, nice theory you got there but your wrong, heres the proof [data]'. And I think the debate about racism is just one of those:

April 26, 2010 : Human brain recognizes and reacts to race
The human brain fires differently when dealing with people outside of one's own race, according to new research out of the University of Toronto Scarborough.
http://www.physorg.c...s191502142.html

This research, conducted by social neuroscientists at UofT Scarborough, explored the sensitivity of the "mirror-neuron-system" to race and ethnicity. The researchers had study participants view a series of videos while hooked up to electroencephalogram (EEG) machines. The participants - all white - watched simple videos in which men of different races picked up a glass and took a sip of water. They watched white, black, South Asian and East Asian men perform the task.

Typically, when people observe others perform a simple task, their motor cortex region fires similarly to when they are performing the task themselves. However, the UofT research team, led by PhD student Jennifer Gutsell and Assistant Professor Dr. Michael Inzlicht, found that participants' motor cortex was significantly less likely to fire when they watched the visible minority men perform the simple task. In some cases when participants watched the non-white men performing the task, their brains actually registered as little activity as when they watched a blank screen.

"Previous research shows people are less likely to feel connected to people outside their own ethnic groups, and we wanted to know why," says Gutsell. "What we found is that there is a basic difference in the way peoples' brains react to those from other ethnic backgrounds. Observing someone of a different race produced significantly less motor-cortex activity than observing a person of one's own race. In other words, people were less likely to mentally simulate the actions of other-race than same-race people"

The trend was even more pronounced for participants who scored high on a test measuring subtle racism, says Gutsell.

"The so-called mirror-neuron-system is thought to be an important building block for empathy by allowing people to 'mirror' other people's actions and emotions; our research indicates that this basic building block is less reactive to people who belong to a different race than you," says Inzlicht.

However, the team says cognitive perspective taking exercises, for example, can increase empathy and understanding, thereby offering hope to reduce prejudice. Gutsell and Inzlicht are now investigating if this form of perspective-taking can have measurable effects in the brain.

The team's findings are published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.

To me this is close to the final word on racism. Or close in that any discussion that does not consider it is flawed. Yes, we are wired to have prejudice against those that are different to us. Very strong and obvious evolutionary reasoning behind this. But a defining human characteristic is we can overcome many of our natural inbuilt instincts, desires and motivations just like this one that evidently we all share. I think it is silly to deny this and say we are all equal and race doesn't mean anything, its society, yada yada yada. Yes societal structures and all that affect certain outcomes, but if I am walking in an alley and out of nowhere comes an individual of a noticeably different race (im trying not to do a black/white thing here lol) I will instantly be a bit more on alert or frightened that if he was my own race. If you measured my cortisol or adrenalin levels they would probably reflect this also. I don't think this is cultural conditioning (although obviously it can be), cause I am the not at all racist, and on the contrary in my past most violent situations I have been involved in were with other whities. I also don't think its really that politically incorrect to say all Asians look the same. Obviously I do not think they all look the same, but certainty I find a noticeable difference remembering faces, etc than members of my own race. I used to feel almost guilty about this, but then one day a Chinese friend of mine told me a story of his family members and others who were being targeted repeatably for robbers. Apparently the police had said they were being targeted because the older immigrated individuals had a really difficult time describing the criminals, so they could not do good forensic sketches and whatnot, haha so it goes both ways! I feel we really need to acknowledge this stuff, to somehow incorporate this into how we introduce the concept of race and racism to children perhaps.

I am pro-science, but let's be realistic. Very early on in history science was used in abusive ways such as eugenics, racist-science, and total fraud studies and that is one of the reasons why there is a distrust in science. Also that study do not take in account of the white male subjects' existing prejudice or environment they grew up in. Modern science is not end all of everything, especially since it is so young. We have so many studies that come out sooner or later with results that is totally opposite from previous studies. I wonder if there would be a difference from test subjects who grew in different or multi-racial neighborhoods, compared to the mostly mono-racial neighborhoods (which is how most of the US is). If this is the cause then the difference would be cultural or environmental instead of biological.

Edited by firespin, 08 May 2010 - 10:48 PM.

[niner]

Racism is really a form of collectism and one of the techniques used by those in power to control the massess. Alot of it is also from stereotypes promoted from ignorant.

Xenophobia is a great way to manipulate people, but it doesn't have a thing to do with collectivism.

I am pro-science, but let's be realistic. Very early on in history science was used in abusive ways such as eugenics, racist-science, and total fraud studies and that is one of the reasons why there is a distrust in science.

Yes, but does that mean that the science is wrong today?

Also that study do not take in account of the white male subjects' existing prejudice or environment they grew up in.

That's a distinct flaw in this study. What do you suppose would happen if they used other ethic groups in a similar study?

Modern science is not end all of everything, especially since it is so young. We have so many studies that come out sooner or later with results that is totally opposite from previous studies. I wonder if there would be a difference from test subjects who grew in different or multi-racial neighborhoods, compared to the mostly mono-racial neighborhoods (which is how most of the US is). If this is the cause then the difference would be cultural or environmental instead of biological.

I'd like to see the test on people who grew up in mixed neighborhoods. I think it might erase a lot of the observed effects. That doesn't mean that there isn't a biological component. It means that there is a biological mechanism for recognition (or dis-recognition) of "other". It would make sense that we could learn to consider just about anyone to be part of our tribe. I bet they wouldn't have to look like us, but I bet that they would need to share our culture. If we want to erase racism, I think it will require that we not only come into close contact with other ethnicities from an early age, but that we all share a common culture. That is a pro-assimilation idea, and is somewhat at odds with some of the extant multi-culti ethnic pride ideas that are common today.

[chris w]

I'd like to see the test on people who grew up in mixed neighborhoods. I think it might erase a lot of the observed effects. That doesn't mean that there isn't a biological component. It means that there is a biological mechanism for recognition (or dis-recognition) of "other". It would make sense that we could learn to consider just about anyone to be part of our tribe. I bet they wouldn't have to look like us, but I bet that they would need to share our culture.

Definitely true at times in history of America - http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States - runaway slaves addopted into Indian tribes

Edited by chris w, 09 May 2010 - 01:07 PM.

[e Volution]

I'd like to see the test on people who grew up in mixed neighborhoods. I think it might erase a lot of the observed effects. That doesn't mean that there isn't a biological component. It means that there is a biological mechanism for recognition (or dis-recognition) of "other". It would make sense that we could learn to consider just about anyone to be part of our tribe. I bet they wouldn't have to look like us, but I bet that they would need to share our culture. If we want to erase racism, I think it will require that we not only come into close contact with other ethnicities from an early age, but that we all share a common culture. That is a pro-assimilation idea, and is somewhat at odds with some of the extant multi-culti ethnic pride ideas that are common today.

Yes, or as one of the commentators after the article proposed, a test on subjects who grew up in a different/mixed race family.

As I understand Racism basically has two parts, first that there is a an inherent difference amongst the various human races, and then usually [unfortunately] that one race is superior in some way to the other. I think we need a greater acknowledgement that the first part is biological in origin, and will be probably always be with us to some extent. Hopefully the second part will inevitably mostly disappear with the rapid rate of globalisation. And I think scientific studies like the one I posted will help to make this happen.

[firespin]

Racism is really a form of collectism and one of the techniques used by those in power to control the massess. Alot of it is also from stereotypes promoted from ignorant.

Xenophobia is a great way to manipulate people, but it doesn't have a thing to do with collectivism.

I believe Xenophobia does play a part in collectivism. It promotes a ethnic group to act in a certain way and have been used to try to set a standard of how a ethnic group should act as part of a group. Look at the history of the Nazis

I am pro-science, but let's be realistic. Very early on in history science was used in abusive ways such as eugenics, racist-science, and total fraud studies and that is one of the reasons why there is a distrust in science.

Yes, but does that mean that the science is wrong today?

There is a possibility that a lot in modern science of what we think we know will be proven wrong in the future just as many theories in the past was proven wrong today. Modern science is very young and most of it is really just theory.

Also that study do not take in account of the white male subjects' existing prejudice or environment they grew up in.

That's a distinct flaw in this study. What do you suppose would happen if they used other ethic groups in a similar study?

I don't think emphasizing only about using different ethnic groups is important since any individual anywhere can be just as likely influenced by prejudice promoted in their environment. For a study like this it is important about finding the level of existing prejudice in individual test subjects, taking that and their environment into account. Using people from different ethnic groups and cultures would also provide more useful results as well.

Modern science is not end all of everything, especially since it is so young. We have so many studies that come out sooner or later with results that is totally opposite from previous studies. I wonder if there would be a difference from test subjects who grew in different or multi-racial neighborhoods, compared to the mostly mono-racial neighborhoods (which is how most of the US is). If this is the cause then the difference would be cultural or environmental instead of biological.

I'd like to see the test on people who grew up in mixed neighborhoods. I think it might erase a lot of the observed effects. That doesn't mean that there isn't a biological component. It means that there is a biological mechanism for recognition (or dis-recognition) of "other". It would make sense that we could learn to consider just about anyone to be part of our tribe. I bet they wouldn't have to look like us, but I bet that they would need to share our culture. If we want to erase racism, I think it will require that we not only come into close contact with other ethnicities from an early age, but that we all share a common culture. That is a pro-assimilation idea, and is somewhat at odds with some of the extant multi-culti ethnic pride ideas that are common today.

I think the modern multiculturalism and as globalization increase will start or is turning into one large main culture, which may be better in the long term and may be pro-assimilation is not necessary. As throughout history different societies that came into contact and traded with each other, adopted different traditions from other cultures and incorporated into their own. (Even societies that fought each other) A example is how romans adopted religion from the greeks and then christians. A modern day example is how the American children of immigrants are more closer to American culture than to the culture of their ancestors' home country. Globalization and the Internet also help spread information. You can go to china and japan and see teenagers listening to rock or rap. There are some muslim girls that listen to Britney spears around the world. Americans are always trying to find or discover something new. We are now in a period of time where countries are becoming more willing to work together than fighting. Now today you can travel and move to almost any country in the world. Travel will also only become cheaper.

Edited by firespin, 10 May 2010 - 03:46 AM.

[niner]

I'd like to see the test on people who grew up in mixed neighborhoods. I think it might erase a lot of the observed effects. That doesn't mean that there isn't a biological component. It means that there is a biological mechanism for recognition (or dis-recognition) of "other". It would make sense that we could learn to consider just about anyone to be part of our tribe. I bet they wouldn't have to look like us, but I bet that they would need to share our culture. If we want to erase racism, I think it will require that we not only come into close contact with other ethnicities from an early age, but that we all share a common culture. That is a pro-assimilation idea, and is somewhat at odds with some of the extant multi-culti ethnic pride ideas that are common today.

I think the modern multiculturalism and as globalization increase will start or is turning into one large main culture, which may be better in the long term and may be pro-assimilation is not necessary. As throughout history different societies that came into contact and traded with each other, adopted different traditions from other cultures and incorporated into their own. (Even societies that fought each other) A example is how romans adopted religion from the greeks and then christians. A modern day example is how the American children of immigrants are more closer to American culture than to the culture of their ancestors' home country. Globalization and the Internet also help spread information. You can go to china and japan and see teenagers listening to rock or rap. There are some muslim girls that listen to Britney spears around the world. Americans are always trying to find or discover something new. We are now in a period of time where countries are becoming more willing to work together than fighting. Now today you can travel and move to almost any country in the world. Travel will also only become cheaper.

Yes, through globalization and intermarriage we will get away from racism eventually. It might take a couple centuries, though. If we want it to happen faster, then we might need to take some more active steps, like promoting and supporting assimilation.

[Kolos]

Luckily theres no way that whole humanity will end up mixed, most people prefer to marry within their own race, they don't have enough contacts with other ethnicities. Actually globalization might also promote racism for example against black people in asia. If not for American movies they wouldn't associate them with crime and if not for the western media, documentaries etc. they wouldn't associate them with poverty, war and chaos. Sometimes showing the truth abouth certain groups of people is worse than making things up and today informations are more accesible than ever before.

[chris w]

Luckily theres no way that whole humanity will end up mixed, most people prefer to marry within their own race, they don't have enough contacts with other ethnicities. Actually globalization might also promote racism for example against black people in asia. If not for American movies they wouldn't associate them with crime and if not for the western media, documentaries etc. they wouldn't associate them with poverty, war and chaos. Sometimes showing the truth abouth certain groups of people is worse than making things up and today informations are more accesible than ever before.

But why "luckily" ? I'm not so sure if human bio-diversity is so precious afterall, traditional cultures are ussually hard core conservative, they don't allow for freethinking because that is always dangerous to the cohesion of the group. If you take away the whole colorfull decore like cusotms, myths, cuisines and so on ( which I agree should be saved somehow as part of our history as human race ) then what's left ? Closed xenophobic groups that run on murky idea of "tradition" willing to fight other such groups ( and also among themselves ) over cattle or fertile women ( like the Yanomano Indians in Amazonia, probably the most violent culture known to anthropolgy surviving to this day ), the "Noble Savage" has been proven wrong to the ground. There is just too much baggage of potential agression attached to the concept of ethnic identities, that makes me doubt if we should really miss them when they're gone somewhere in the future. And exactly because people will have more contact with others, interracial marriages will become more and more commonplace, making us all mestisized.

As for racism going together with globalisation, it all depends on what kind of images you circulate - Asians could actually feel respect towards Blacks ( American ) if the only thing they saw were today's hip hop videos, because they would associate them with material success, the gold teeth and everything, so it's not that simple.

Edited by chris w, 10 May 2010 - 04:37 PM.

[Kolos]

But why "luckily" ? I'm not so sure if human bio-diversity is so precious afterall, traditional cultures are ussually hard core conservative, they don't allow for freethinking because that is always dangerous to the cohesion of the group

Well I don't really think that racism is so bad that we should all mix just that there would be no "pure" races anymore. There will always (at least as long as we have bodies) be some differences in skin color and in many multiethnic countries like Brazil today it's better to be lighter skinned even for mestizos because it's associated with higher social position. Even if we mix all races there will always be some differences, perhaps some new "races" would be formed and in the end it wouldn't changed anything.

And exactly because people will have more contact with others, interracial marriages will become more and more commonplace, making us all mestisized.

How? It's not like all of a sudden all white women would find black partners and white man asian women and asian men whatever's left? It doesn't work like that. Even after thosands of years significant part of society wouldn't mix much.

As for racism going together with globalisation, it all depends on what kind of images you circulate - Asians could actually feel respect towards Blacks ( American ) if the only thing they saw were today's hip hop videos, because they would associate them with material success, the gold teeth and everything, so it's not that simple.

I don't think they would respect them if it was gangsta rap... Anyway you can't hate someone if you have a few or none contacts with him and with globalization it's both easier to love other cultures and hate them (same with people).

Edited by Kolos, 10 May 2010 - 09:23 PM.

[chris w]

Well I don't really think that racism is so bad that we should all mix just that there would be no "pure" races anymore. In many multiethnic countries like Brazil today it's better to be lighter skinned even for mestizos because it's associated with higher social position.

And to me that sucks, if everybody became equally brownish in Brazil, they wouldn't have a color based discrimination problem there ( which doesn't make a utopia of any country, but still it's better ). Of course it's always wiser to just fight ethnic prejudice, but sometimes it simply doesn't succeed. It is reasonable to put the word "pure" in citation marks, because the very concept of race is flawed. In terms of genetics, humans differ between the races less than one chimpanzee tribe differs from it's neighbour ( altough it now looks that Whites and Asians have traces of cross breeding with Neandertals, but still evolutionary details like this are probably irrelevant in the wider view ). There isn't a common genetic print ( appart from pigmentation and skull shape ) that for ex all Africans in Africa and Americas would share, thus making "Black" in someway a usefull category in terms of science.

Even if we mix all races there will always be some differences, perhaps some new "races" would be formed and in the end it wouldn't changed anything.

How could there be ? if you have a limited number of "colors" then when mixing it all equally, it's not like some totally different trait will appear. They will tend to just blur with one another to the point of the least common denominator.

How? It's not like all of a sudden all white women would find black partners and white man asian women and asian men whatever's left? It doesn't work like that. Even after thosands of years significant part of society wouldn't mix much.

Ok, I did not mean like everyone on the planet, sure, some countries will always be more attractive than others for emmigrants, but wherever they appear, there will be mixed marriages, at least in further generations ( because the older ones tend to stick to themselves ).

Anyway you can't hate someone if you have a few or none contacts with him.

As political life in our country has showed for the last twenty years ( altough I guess recently it has been going down ), it is perfectly possible to have antisemitism in a land with only about 10 000 large Jewish population.

Edited by chris w, 11 May 2010 - 02:31 PM.

[Kolos]

And to me that sucks, if everybody became equally brownish in Brazil, they wouldn't have a color based discrimination problem there

But they would find other reasons, even today most racist wouldn't put skin color on top of their "why do I hate them list" so I wouldn't simplify racism like that. Even if we paint all people brown there would be some cultural differences, certain traits that would make some people hated.
Of course it would be impossible to create some one dark skinned race without any significant differences. There would always be some mixed people looking more asian or black and even thhousands of years of mixing wouldn't be enough to change it because you can't force generation after generation to mate with people from different ethnicities so none of them would dominate, it wouldn't be easy even with rats.

In terms of genetics, humans differ between the races less than one chimpanzee tribe differs from it's neighbour

But still there are some serious differences in how we look, our boddies differ in size, there were also some interesting studies about differences in perception http://www.newscient...ifferently.html health http://ije.oxfordjou...nt/full/32/1/26 and intelligence http://en.wikipedia....alth_of_Nations (controversial)

As political life in our country has showed for the last twenty years ( altough I guess recently it has been going down ), it is perfectly possible to have antisemitism in a land with only about 10 000 large Jewish population.

After extensive, centuries long contacts it's not so shocking.
My point is that it works both ways, some people might become less racist, some might just learn what racism is and like it.
If I didn't have a chance to meet people from Roma minority I wouldn't dislike them like I do on the other hand if I never watched Daimos I wouldn't have a reason to like Japanese culture. Why do you think so many people hate America? It's not so complicated really you can't kill someone that you never met but of course you can't fall in love with him either.

[ken_akiba]

"Why do you think so many people hate America?"
Jealousy.

[niner]

My point is that it works both ways, some people might become less racist, some might just learn what racism is and like it.
If I didn't have a chance to meet people from Roma minority I wouldn't dislike them like I do on the other hand if I never watched Daimos I wouldn't have a reason to like Japanese culture. Why do you think so many people hate America? It's not so complicated really you can't kill someone that you never met but of course you can't fall in love with him either.

I don't think people hate America because they've met us, lived with us, and gotten to know us, which is what you seem to be implying. I don't think they hate America because they are jealous, either.

[ken_akiba]

Ahh Tosho Daimos! How would you know this relic ? Interesting you brought it up because the plot deals with racism albeit Human vs. Alien.

[Kolos]

I don't think people hate America because they've met us, lived with us, and gotten to know us, which is what you seem to be implying. I don't think they hate America because they are jealous, either.

We were talking about globalization which is more than just personal contacts. People hate America for interventions in internal matters of other countries that wouldn't be needed or even possible without globalization, they hate western lifestyle promoted by Hollywood and American companies that probably wouldn't even been there if not for globalization etc. Immigration is just a part of this process and not the most important one since you can have globalization with little immigration.

Ahh Tosho Daimos! How would you know this relic ? Interesting you brought it up because the plot deals with racism albeit Human vs. Alien.

It was quite popular in Poland when I was a kid (although not as much as Captain Tsubasa) good old days...

[chris w]

Ahh Tosho Daimos! How would you know this relic ? Interesting you brought it up because the plot deals with racism albeit Human vs. Alien.

It was quite popular in Poland when I was a kid (although not as much as Captain Tsubasa) good old days...

Oh oh, and also Gigi - the little pervert basketball player and Yattaman, always with some stupid joke at the end where they laughed like crazy, sometimes I cut class when paretns weren't home in the morning just to watch them, those cartoons rocked a 12 year old's world . Globalisation in action.

Edited by chris w, 12 May 2010 - 04:26 PM.

[chris w]

My point is that it works both ways, some people might become less racist, some might just learn what racism is and like it.
If I didn't have a chance to meet people from Roma minority I wouldn't dislike them like I do on the other hand if I never watched Daimos I wouldn't have a reason to like Japanese culture. Why do you think so many people hate America? It's not so complicated really you can't kill someone that you never met but of course you can't fall in love with him either.

I don't think people hate America because they've met us, lived with us, and gotten to know us, which is what you seem to be implying. I don't think they hate America because they are jealous, either.

Yes, they didn't do all this, but the thing with U.S.A is exactly that you don't have to be there to get to know certain aspects of it. When I was growing up most boys in my class could name all Bulls or Nicks major players without the slicest chance of ever seeing an NBA game in person, the simple fact that we are having this conversations in your native language and not mine for example, is a symptom of what America is today, it's enough to have a cable tv to be able to tap to what Americans produce in matters of culture and politics, so you are indeed in a very specific position, I don't mean to justify any feelings that one can have towards U.S., friendly or hostile, both of them are usually not very thought through in most people I guess, I'm just saying that what happens in and with America somehow affects very various issues in other parts of the world, so it's not a country like any other, that you would have to necesarrily live in to have a valid opinion on.

Edited by chris w, 12 May 2010 - 04:47 PM.

[ken_akiba]

Allow me to be a devil's advocate for a moment, not that I am implying the US is devil :-) nor am I implying everyone here has issues with the US.
It is my opinion that there has never been a more "gentleman" superpower throughout human history than the USA.

(Has there been a true, comparable global superpower till now, is another, though very relevant story, as the poster has described above)

Edited by ken_akiba, 13 May 2010 - 02:08 AM.

[SiliconAnimation]

Is racism a modern phenomenon, or was it present since the early days of mankind?
The romans have had an black emperor (Macrinus) and even the son of a freed slave (Pertinax) became emperor, also the egyptians made no difference between their "egyptian" pharaos or black pharaos from the south.
The rulers of ancient times married foreign princesses (Alexander the great etc.) to secure the peace or enlarge their empires.

What do you think about that?

In a world which embraces and understands genomic research it's far more difficult to have racism. Giving people the ability to pick and choose individual genetic traits they would like to be in their body sort of undermines everything there is to race. What then, would anyone have to argue about? If I decide to modify my genes so that I have say, green hair doesn't that kind of throw a wrench in the whole race issue?

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 13 May 2010 - 07:53 AM.