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Couteracting 5htp causing lower Dopamine levels


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#1 the_colossus

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 02:27 AM


I've been taking 5htp for sleep, mild depression and compulsion for a few years. I've had a steady decrease in dopamine since and only recently learned 5htp can cause this. People have recommended taking tyrosine with 5htp to offset this. Would taking a dopamine booster from the start with taking 5htp prevent this? Or whether taking a booster, while continuing to take 5htp will reverse it? As Im a professional poker player and 5htp greatly reduced compulsion which caused him to go on tilt and costs a lot of money eliminated it isn't an option.

The tryosine didn't work. I have tried Deprenyl, Strattera and Dexedrine as well. Deprenyl and Strattera definitly boosted dopamine, but it also gave me very bad insomnia. As I only tried it for a few days I don't know if it would be permanent and restore it to previous levels. Dexedrine didn't work. I will continue to try other ADD meds till I hopefully find one that works without insomnia. Other dopamine booster suggestions would be nice.

I could take a day or maybe a second off 5htp each week and not work the next one. Would that make a significant difference? As people take deprenyl once a week for life extension purposes would doing the same work to counteract 5htp? I could try that and take some melatonin and Valerian the next day if I don't find another dopamine booster that is tolerable. That would likely make me groggy enough so I couldn't work the next day. If Im not working it would be a good time to skip the 5htp and just take more alternative sleep aids.

Any answers, suggestions or something I hadn't considered would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by the_colossus, 15 January 2010 - 02:28 AM.


#2 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 02:33 AM

It seems like you're taking a good number of things without doing a lot of research. ie, Strattera is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, not a dopamine one. Did you take the tyrosine in the day, when you woke up, on an empty stomach? What was your dosing schedule and quanity for Deprenyl? Have you tried tryptophan and/or melatonin? 5-HTP can cause problems with long-term use because it causes blood serotonin levels to be raised, which can damage blood vessels and the heart. Did you take anything for depression/sleep issues before 5HTP? How did you feel before 5HTP?

Details, please.

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#3 the_colossus

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:04 AM

It seems like you're taking a good number of things without doing a lot of research. ie, Strattera is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, not a dopamine one. Did you take the tyrosine in the day, when you woke up, on an empty stomach? What was your dosing schedule and quanity for Deprenyl? Have you tried tryptophan and/or melatonin? 5-HTP can cause problems with long-term use because it causes blood serotonin levels to be raised, which can damage blood vessels and the heart. Did you take anything for depression/sleep issues before 5HTP? How did you feel before 5HTP?

Details, please.


I took tyrosine asap in the morning with food, without it gave me nausea. It didn't give me insomnia, it just didn't work. I took deprenyl daily. Started with 5mg, than 2.5 the next and finally 1.25. Had bad insomnia even at that does.

Does tryptophan not cause serotonin levels in the blood and heart? If I take some should do it with Vit B or not? I take 15mg Seroquel at night for Bipolar, any less and my mind gets racy.

Before taking 5htp I would have some sadness, despair, some crying spells. My motivation, concentration, was slightly lower than I would have liked, that has always been the case.

I also take Lamictal 225 and Lithium 600.

Edited by the_colossus, 15 January 2010 - 03:24 AM.


#4 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:42 AM

I think you mean 150mg of seroquel, but even that's low. I am assuming you have been prescribed all this by a doctor, right?

The tryptophan will not cause blood problems. It might be worth a shot.

The Lithium will likely have a much greater serotonin effect than the 5HTP. The Lamictal also is known to give a bit of a serotonin boost. Adding 5HTP to this mix might be the problem, especially considering that the Tryptophan -> 5HTP conversion in your body is the rate-limiting step (meaning the control mechanism for serotonin production). Taking 5HTP bypasses this. Combined with these two it might be a problem. Not to mention that Seroquel has anti-dopaminergic effects (though, at 150mg, it's not going to be that high). Did you start taking 5HTP after all the other meds were set in place? Because if not, it might not be the 5HTP. I am on 125mg Lamictal (real skinny though) for anxiety. I know that stuff slows my mind down, and is numbing a bit. So, more details on changes. This is complex stuff and it will definately be worth your time to really dig into the wealth of info about all this before trying more things.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 15 January 2010 - 03:44 AM.


#5 VespeneGas

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:55 AM

Um, you haven't listed any symptoms for which you are seeking treatment.

#6 shaggy

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:51 PM

5-HTP can cause problems with long-term use because it causes blood serotonin levels to be raised, which can damage blood vessels and the heart. Details, please.


Can you show me your evidence for your theory here please?

#7 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 01:43 PM

There's a million posts on here about that, just search for it.

#8 VespeneGas

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:47 PM

Can you show me your evidence for your theory here please?


Can J Biochem. 1979 Jul;57(7):1014-8.


Biochemical properties and kinetic parameters of dihydroxyphenylalanine--5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase in brain, liver, and adrenals of cat.

Bouchard S, Roberge AG.

Biochemical properties and kinetic parameters of nonpurified dihydroxyphenylalanine-5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase extracted from brain and two peripheral organs, liver and adrenals, were studied in the cat. This study shows that decarboxylase activity in brain is lower than in peripheral organs and that 5-hydroxytryptophan can be decarboxylated without exogenous addition of pyridoxal-5'-phosphate (PLP). However, the addition of PLP substantially increases the enzyme activity. Excess of coenzyme (greater than 60 muM) induces inhibition in adrenals and liver but not in the central nervous system (CNS). The observed inhibition might be related to the presence of a tetrahydroisoquinoline derivative formed in the medium. Differentiation between mechanisms of action of decarboxylase in the CNS and peripheral organs is suggested.

PMID: 39668 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Acta Pharmacol Toxicol (Copenh). 1981 Sep;49(3):184-9.


Plasma accumulation of metabolism of orally administered single dose L-5-hydroxytryptophan in man.

Magnussen I, Jensen TS, Rand JH, Van Woert MH.

Single oral doses of L-5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) were administered in combination with L-aromatic amino acid decarboxylase inhibitors. The time courses of plasma concentrations of 5-HTP, 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and the concentrations of 5-HT in blood platelets were measured. Carbidopa enhanced the rise in plasma concentrations of 5-HTP 5-15 fold and counteracted the increase in plasma 5-HIAA levels induced by 5-HTP alone. A single dose of the decarboxylase inhibitor was equipotent to 14 days' pretreatment. Plasma or platelet concentrations of 5-HT failed to reflect the metabolism of 5-HTP. The ratio of 5-HTP to carbidopa influenced the systemic bioavailability of single dose administered 5-HTP indicating dose dependent absorption kinetics. Co-administration of L-dopa with 5-HTP and decarboxylase inhibitors had no effect on gastrointestinal absorption of 5-HTP in six parkinsonian patients.

PMID: 6175178 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Circulation. 2005 Mar 29;111(12):1517-22. Epub 2005 Mar 21.
Long-term serotonin administration induces heart valve disease in rats.
Gustafsson BI, Tømmerås K, Nordrum I, Loennechen JP, Brunsvik A, Solligård E, Fossmark R, Bakke I, Syversen U, Waldum H.
Department of Internal Medicine, St Olavs Hospital HF, Trondheim University Hospital, Trondheim, Norway. bjorn.gustafsson@medisin.ntnu.no
BACKGROUND: The purpose of this study was to investigate whether rats dosed with serotonin develop changes similar to those seen in human carcinoid heart disease. METHODS AND RESULTS: Ten Sprague-Dawley rats were given serotonin injections subcutaneously once daily for 3 months; controls were given saline. A long-lasting hyperserotoninemia with a >10-fold increase in both platelet-poor plasma and dialysate from the femoral muscles appeared. The animals developed clinical signs such as flushing and loose stools. After 3 months, 6 of 10 rats given serotonin had pathological echocardiographs. Two animals had a combination of aortic and pulmonary valve insufficiency, 1 had isolated aortic valve insufficiency, and 3 had isolated pulmonary valve insufficiency. Histopathological examination revealed shortened and thickened aortic cusps and carcinoidlike plaques characterized by a collection of myofibroblasts within an extracellular matrix of collagen ground substance. Immunostaining for Ki-67 demonstrated an increased number of proliferating subendocardial cells. In the control group, no pathological changes were seen. With the use of reverse-transcription polymerase chain reaction, normal rat aortic cusps were shown to express mRNA for serotonin receptors 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, and 5-HT2B and the serotonin transporter 5-HTT. CONCLUSIONS: For the first time, long-term serotonin administration was performed in rats. Morphological and echocardiographic changes similar to those seen in human carcinoid heart disease developed. This study demonstrates that serotonin most likely is involved in the pathogenesis of carcinoid heart disease.
PMID: 15781732 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Am J Pathol. 2002 December; 161(6): 2209–2218.


PMCID: PMC1850896
Copyright © 2002, American Society for Investigative Pathology
Serotonin Mechanisms in Heart Valve Disease II
The 5-HT2 Receptor and Its Signaling Pathway in Aortic Valve Interstitial Cells
Jie Xu,* Bo Jian,* Richard Chu,† Zhibin Lu,* Quanyi Li,* John Dunlop,‡ Sharon Rosenzweig-Lipson,‡ Paul McGonigle,‡ Robert J. Levy,* and Bruce Liang†
From the Cardiology Research Laboratory,* Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; the Departments of Medicine and Pharmacology,† University of Pennsylvania Medical Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and Wyeth-Ayerst Research,‡ Princeton, New Jersey
Accepted August 15, 2002.

Abstract
Serotonin [5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT)]-mediated cardiac valvular disease has been commonly observed in patients with carcinoid tumors. Previous research by others using reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction demonstrated that aortic valve cells expressed predominantly 5-HT2A/2B receptors (5-HT2AR). Related investigations by our group using sheep aortic valve interstitial cell (SAVIC) cultures demonstrated that 5-HT both up-regulates transforming growth factor (TGF)-β1 expression and activity, and also results in increased phospholipase C (PLC) activity. Thus, the present study investigated the hypothesis that the 5-HT signaling pathway in SAVICs involves 5-HT2Rs with associated G-protein signal transduction. The objectives were to functionally characterize in SAVIC cultures the native serotonin receptor subtypes using specific agonists and antagonists, and to delineate the serotonin-signaling pathway. 5-HT administration caused a marked stimulation of PLC activity. SAVIC studies of specific agents that target the 5-HT2R subtypes indicate that this response seemed to be mediated predominantly by 5-HT2ARs. Furthermore, the sheep 5-HT2AR was identified by reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction with sequence confirmation including comparisons to pig and human 5-HT2AR. Extracellular signal-regulated kinase (Erk 1/2) is a signaling molecule downstream from the 5-HT2AR. Both a protein kinase C inhibitor, GF109203X, and a Src inhibitor, PP1, attenuated 5-HT-stimulated Erk 1/2 activation. However, a 5-HT2AR antagonist, MDL 100907, inhibited 5-HT up-regulation of PLC and TGF-β1, while having far less pronounced effects on Erk 1/2. In conclusion, these studies of the signal transduction activity of SAVICs in response to 5-HT have demonstrated that the 5-HT2ARs are the most functionally active of the 5-HT2Rs in this cell type. Furthermore, 5-HT2ARs are also involved in 5-HT up-regulation of active TGF-β. 5-HT also mediated strong Erk 1/2 signaling via the MAP-kinase pathway, which was only in part because of 5-HT2AR activity. Thus, major 5-HT Erk 1/2 signaling beyond that controlled by 5-HT2Rs must involve other serotonin receptor types and/or secondary signaling events.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez


5htp may alter BP or fluid balance by messing with plasma renin activity:

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1981 Jun;14(6):895-900.
Effects of serotonin and L-5-hydroxytryptophan on plasma renin activity in rats.
Barney CC, Threatte RM, Kikta DC, Fregly MJ.
The effects of dipsogenic doses of l-5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and serotonin on plasma renin activity (PRA), blood pressure, and body temperature were determined in unanesthetized female rats. Both serotonin (2 mg/kg, s.c.) and 5-HTP (25 mg/kg, s.c.) induced six-fold increases in PRA measured 1 hr after drug administration. The central and peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor, benserazide (30 mg/kg, s.c.), as well as the peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor, carbidopa (6.5 mg/kg s.c.), prevented the increase in PRA associated with administration of 5-HTP. This suggests that 5-HTP must be converted to serotonin peripherally to increase PRA. At the doses used, serotonin decreased mean blood pressure and colonic temperature of unanesthetized rats while 5-HTP was without effect. The increase in PRA induced by 5-HTP does not appear, therefore, to be a response to either hypotension or a decrease in colonic temperature. Since 5-HTP must be converted to serotonin to initiate both a drinking response and an increase in PRA, the results suggest that the decrease in blood pressure and colonic temperature following administration of serotonin may not be important in induction of the drinking response and the increase in PRA. The mechanism by which activation of the renin-angiotensin system occurs following peripheral administration of either 5-HTP or serotonin remains for further study.
PMID: 7019933 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

See also:
Hiroshima J Med Sci. 1976 Sep;25(2-3):135-40. On the tryptophan-serotonin metabolism in manic-depressive disorders. Changes in plasma 5-HT and 5-HIAA levels and urinary 5-HIAA excretion following oral loading of L-5HTP in patients with depression.

Amamoto T, Sarai K.

PMID: 1088369 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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#9 the_colossus

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:27 PM

All my meds are doctor discussed and approved. I only take 15mg seroquel. I am very sensitive to it. I started taking those 3 drugs for bipolar 7 years ago and only started 5htp a couple years ago. My concentration, focus, desire, definitely was reduced significantly when I started those meds. I got diagnosed bipolar after a maniac episode, what followed was a big depression and that was when I started those 3 meds. So its impossible to know what how much impact was due to the meds compared to my mood. My moods don’t fluctuate too severly anymore and when they do the change in mental abilities is very apparent.

After 4 years I reduced my seroquel from 50mg to 25mg and definitely saw a large increase in concentration, energy, etc. That happened again when decreasing to 15mg, 6 months later. Completely eliminating it doesn't work as the mind goes racy. I had lowered my lithium from 900mg down to 600mg, due to blood levels getting high, 4 months ago without noticing a big difference. I had increased my lamictal a couple times years ago, before 5htp. Lamictal really hurts my language skills.

Whenever I had changes with seroquel or lamictal the impact was very sudden and obviously due to the change. After starting 5htp the only sudden change was a significant decrease in libido. I didn’t have any other noticeable, immediate impact. Gradually overtime motivation, concentration, focus was decreased, libido also has slowly decreased. Thats why it took so long to make a connection.

#10 VespeneGas

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:30 PM

Well, this is taking a detour to obvious town, but online poker is not a good career choice for someone with bipolar disorder. It's like, one of the worst I can think of. If 5-htp is hurting your libido, concentration, motivation, etc., then you should try to eliminate it, via eliminating poker... or just stop the 5htp, since impaired concentration will hurt your income anyway. If you simply must keep playing, I find that regular meditation helps prevent me from going on tilt. I'm more likely to just get up from my computer and go for a walk rather than pouring my chips into pot after pot. It's just a good idea in general, and doesn't carry 5htp's side effects or heart valve disease risks.

Taking an antipsychotic that acts (partially) through dopamine antagonism, then taking deprenyl/amphetamine/strattera(?) to boost dopaminergic activity is kinda silly, not to mention irresponsible given that these drugs could launch you into mania. Did your physician really prescribe the aforementioned drugs to you? If so, his license should be revoked. If you are indeed currently taking seroquel, lithium, lamotrigine, and 5HTP, you should be looking to reduce your medication burden, not increase it. Yikes.

#11 the_colossus

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 08:56 PM

I read that stock trading was the worse possible career for people with Bipolar, poker would have likely been considered worse except they didn't think of it. I actually do trade and don't have any tilt problems with it. Likely as the real work is in working on algorithms and the execution is very boring with nothing to think about. If the portfolio says to sell I sell, to buy I buy, not like poker where the decision making is subjective and challenging. Im spending increasing time on it and less on poker. A lot due to poker just not interesting me so much. I started taking Acetyl Cysteine and that made a big difference for tilt and compulsion, eliminating dairy and gluten also helped as an elimination diet showed I had problems with them. I no longer have the strong compulsive urges when not playing. It feels much more like work, which is good. Doing meditation is a good idea. It sounds incredibly boring, which is probably why it would be of benefit.

Taking a dopamine antagonist and adding an agonist looks silly on the surface. Neurotransmitters are extremely complex and not fully understood by science. That is why they have so many different ADD meds that attempt to do the same thing in slightly different ways. Some work for certain people and others don't. Some affect people in different ways. When I tried deprenyl it increased libido significantly, increased concentration and motivation moderately. It didn't make my mind racy or anything, just couldn't sleep. When my pdoc agreed to try eliminating seroquel my mind started going racey after a couple days, so I went right back on it. My libido actually didn't increase much when I was off it.

I am fortunate in that my only manic experience was before I was diagnosed. That was 8 years ago. If I ever find my mind going funny I take a bunch of seroquels and that knocks me out. Haven't had to do that in so many years, except when I tested no seroquel that one time. My manic experience was not very pleasent, which is a good thing as Im very cuatious against becoming manic again. The goal is to try to get that right spot, where what causes my mind to race is greatly and go uppy is kept down but part affecting motivation, concentration, energy are higher. As I don't mess around with possibly becoming manic, taking a bunch of serquels doesn't bother me. I have only become manic once years ago, I can experiment with changing my levels. The goal of treatment and medication isn't to just reduce the chance of mania as much as possible but to raise the overall quality of life. Im sure with many patients my pdoc wouldn't try adding any uppers, but in some cases its reasonable.

Edited by the_colossus, 15 January 2010 - 09:01 PM.


#12 shaggy

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:49 AM

Can you show me your evidence for your theory here please?


Can J Biochem. 1979 Jul;57(7):1014-8.


Biochemical properties and kinetic parameters of dihydroxyphenylalanine--5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase in brain, liver, and adrenals of cat.

Bouchard S, Roberge AG.

Biochemical properties and kinetic parameters of nonpurified dihydroxyphenylalanine-5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase extracted from brain and two peripheral organs, liver and adrenals, were studied in the cat. This study shows that decarboxylase activity in brain is lower than in peripheral organs and that 5-hydroxytryptophan can be decarboxylated without exogenous addition of pyridoxal-5'-phosphate (PLP). However, the addition of PLP substantially increases the enzyme activity. Excess of coenzyme (greater than 60 muM) induces inhibition in adrenals and liver but not in the central nervous system (CNS). The observed inhibition might be related to the presence of a tetrahydroisoquinoline derivative formed in the medium. Differentiation between mechanisms of action of decarboxylase in the CNS and peripheral organs is suggested.

PMID: 39668 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Acta Pharmacol Toxicol (Copenh). 1981 Sep;49(3):184-9.


Plasma accumulation of metabolism of orally administered single dose L-5-hydroxytryptophan in man.

Magnussen I, Jensen TS, Rand JH, Van Woert MH.

Single oral doses of L-5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) were administered in combination with L-aromatic amino acid decarboxylase inhibitors. The time courses of plasma concentrations of 5-HTP, 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) and the concentrations of 5-HT in blood platelets were measured. Carbidopa enhanced the rise in plasma concentrations of 5-HTP 5-15 fold and counteracted the increase in plasma 5-HIAA levels induced by 5-HTP alone. A single dose of the decarboxylase inhibitor was equipotent to 14 days' pretreatment. Plasma or platelet concentrations of 5-HT failed to reflect the metabolism of 5-HTP. The ratio of 5-HTP to carbidopa influenced the systemic bioavailability of single dose administered 5-HTP indicating dose dependent absorption kinetics. Co-administration of L-dopa with 5-HTP and decarboxylase inhibitors had no effect on gastrointestinal absorption of 5-HTP in six parkinsonian patients.

PMID: 6175178 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Circulation. 2005 Mar 29;111(12):1517-22. Epub 2005 Mar 21.
Long-term serotonin administration induces heart valve disease in rats.
Gustafsson BI, Tømmerås K, Nordrum I, Loennechen JP, Brunsvik A, Solligård E, Fossmark R, Bakke I, Syversen U, Waldum H.
Department of Internal Medicine, St Olavs Hospital HF, Trondheim University Hospital, Trondheim, Norway. bjorn.gustafsson@medisin.ntnu.no
BACKGROUND: The purpose of this study was to investigate whether rats dosed with serotonin develop changes similar to those seen in human carcinoid heart disease. METHODS AND RESULTS: Ten Sprague-Dawley rats were given serotonin injections subcutaneously once daily for 3 months; controls were given saline. A long-lasting hyperserotoninemia with a >10-fold increase in both platelet-poor plasma and dialysate from the femoral muscles appeared. The animals developed clinical signs such as flushing and loose stools. After 3 months, 6 of 10 rats given serotonin had pathological echocardiographs. Two animals had a combination of aortic and pulmonary valve insufficiency, 1 had isolated aortic valve insufficiency, and 3 had isolated pulmonary valve insufficiency. Histopathological examination revealed shortened and thickened aortic cusps and carcinoidlike plaques characterized by a collection of myofibroblasts within an extracellular matrix of collagen ground substance. Immunostaining for Ki-67 demonstrated an increased number of proliferating subendocardial cells. In the control group, no pathological changes were seen. With the use of reverse-transcription polymerase chain reaction, normal rat aortic cusps were shown to express mRNA for serotonin receptors 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, and 5-HT2B and the serotonin transporter 5-HTT. CONCLUSIONS: For the first time, long-term serotonin administration was performed in rats. Morphological and echocardiographic changes similar to those seen in human carcinoid heart disease developed. This study demonstrates that serotonin most likely is involved in the pathogenesis of carcinoid heart disease.
PMID: 15781732 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Am J Pathol. 2002 December; 161(6): 2209–2218.


PMCID: PMC1850896
Copyright © 2002, American Society for Investigative Pathology
Serotonin Mechanisms in Heart Valve Disease II
The 5-HT2 Receptor and Its Signaling Pathway in Aortic Valve Interstitial Cells
Jie Xu,* Bo Jian,* Richard Chu,† Zhibin Lu,* Quanyi Li,* John Dunlop,‡ Sharon Rosenzweig-Lipson,‡ Paul McGonigle,‡ Robert J. Levy,* and Bruce Liang†
From the Cardiology Research Laboratory,* Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; the Departments of Medicine and Pharmacology,† University of Pennsylvania Medical Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and Wyeth-Ayerst Research,‡ Princeton, New Jersey
Accepted August 15, 2002.

Abstract
Serotonin [5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT)]-mediated cardiac valvular disease has been commonly observed in patients with carcinoid tumors. Previous research by others using reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction demonstrated that aortic valve cells expressed predominantly 5-HT2A/2B receptors (5-HT2AR). Related investigations by our group using sheep aortic valve interstitial cell (SAVIC) cultures demonstrated that 5-HT both up-regulates transforming growth factor (TGF)-β1 expression and activity, and also results in increased phospholipase C (PLC) activity. Thus, the present study investigated the hypothesis that the 5-HT signaling pathway in SAVICs involves 5-HT2Rs with associated G-protein signal transduction. The objectives were to functionally characterize in SAVIC cultures the native serotonin receptor subtypes using specific agonists and antagonists, and to delineate the serotonin-signaling pathway. 5-HT administration caused a marked stimulation of PLC activity. SAVIC studies of specific agents that target the 5-HT2R subtypes indicate that this response seemed to be mediated predominantly by 5-HT2ARs. Furthermore, the sheep 5-HT2AR was identified by reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction with sequence confirmation including comparisons to pig and human 5-HT2AR. Extracellular signal-regulated kinase (Erk 1/2) is a signaling molecule downstream from the 5-HT2AR. Both a protein kinase C inhibitor, GF109203X, and a Src inhibitor, PP1, attenuated 5-HT-stimulated Erk 1/2 activation. However, a 5-HT2AR antagonist, MDL 100907, inhibited 5-HT up-regulation of PLC and TGF-β1, while having far less pronounced effects on Erk 1/2. In conclusion, these studies of the signal transduction activity of SAVICs in response to 5-HT have demonstrated that the 5-HT2ARs are the most functionally active of the 5-HT2Rs in this cell type. Furthermore, 5-HT2ARs are also involved in 5-HT up-regulation of active TGF-β. 5-HT also mediated strong Erk 1/2 signaling via the MAP-kinase pathway, which was only in part because of 5-HT2AR activity. Thus, major 5-HT Erk 1/2 signaling beyond that controlled by 5-HT2Rs must involve other serotonin receptor types and/or secondary signaling events.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez


5htp may alter BP or fluid balance by messing with plasma renin activity:

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1981 Jun;14(6):895-900.
Effects of serotonin and L-5-hydroxytryptophan on plasma renin activity in rats.
Barney CC, Threatte RM, Kikta DC, Fregly MJ.
The effects of dipsogenic doses of l-5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and serotonin on plasma renin activity (PRA), blood pressure, and body temperature were determined in unanesthetized female rats. Both serotonin (2 mg/kg, s.c.) and 5-HTP (25 mg/kg, s.c.) induced six-fold increases in PRA measured 1 hr after drug administration. The central and peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor, benserazide (30 mg/kg, s.c.), as well as the peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor, carbidopa (6.5 mg/kg s.c.), prevented the increase in PRA associated with administration of 5-HTP. This suggests that 5-HTP must be converted to serotonin peripherally to increase PRA. At the doses used, serotonin decreased mean blood pressure and colonic temperature of unanesthetized rats while 5-HTP was without effect. The increase in PRA induced by 5-HTP does not appear, therefore, to be a response to either hypotension or a decrease in colonic temperature. Since 5-HTP must be converted to serotonin to initiate both a drinking response and an increase in PRA, the results suggest that the decrease in blood pressure and colonic temperature following administration of serotonin may not be important in induction of the drinking response and the increase in PRA. The mechanism by which activation of the renin-angiotensin system occurs following peripheral administration of either 5-HTP or serotonin remains for further study.
PMID: 7019933 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

See also:
Hiroshima J Med Sci. 1976 Sep;25(2-3):135-40. On the tryptophan-serotonin metabolism in manic-depressive disorders. Changes in plasma 5-HT and 5-HIAA levels and urinary 5-HIAA excretion following oral loading of L-5HTP in patients with depression.

Amamoto T, Sarai K.

PMID: 1088369 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Thanks for all this information....And please excuse my obtuseness....But which of these studies proves to me orally administered dosages of 5-HTP in the normal supplement range of say 50-200mg of 5 HTP damages heart valves via serotonin?

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#13 shaggy

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:44 PM

5-HTP Safety
'
By James South M.A.
Last month, a WARNING ABOUT 5-HYDROXYTRYPTOPHAN was mailed to many members of the life extension/nutritional supplementation community. This Warning alleges that little, if any, benefit is to be gained through use of 5 -Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), and that anyone using it is actually risking death!
What are the claims made against 5-HTP in this Warning, and what can be said about the relevance and truth of these allegations?

The Warning claims that 5-HTP should be used (if at all) only with a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor (PDI). Yet large numbers of studies reviewed by Zmilacher et al (1) found 5-HTP more effective without PDIs than with them and with fewer and less serious side effects. Zmilachers own study of 5-HTP both with and without a PDI reported in the same article found notably more, and more serious, side effects from 5-HTP when combined with a PDI. Thus, the relevant scientific literature simply does not support the claim that 5-HTP is neither safe nor effective without a PDI.

The Warning claims that without a PDI most or all of the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin in the bloodstream outside the brain; and since serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, this would nullify any hoped-for brain benefit from 5-HTP. Yet successful studies (only some of many published) using 5-HTP without a PDI (1,2,4,6,11) clearly refute this contention. Furthermore, studies infusing tryptophan or 5-HTP directly into the bloodstream of human subjects have been performed, and these studies have not found any increase in blood serotonin caused by increased blood 5-HTP. Thus, one report states: Six healthy male subjects received ... 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan (5-HTP) ... on two occasions in a randomized cross-over study. There were marked increases in urinary 5-HTP and 5-HT [serotonin] excretion after infusion of [5-HTP] ... . This occurred without significant changes in blood 5-HT [serotonin] levels measured in platelet-rich plasma. (23) Another report using intravenous tryptophan infusion stated: ... 5-hydroxy-Trp [5-HTP] rose rapidly and massively after Trp[tryptophan] infusions, at the 5 g dose more than ... 20-fold[!] ... and declined rapidly to about 5-fold baseline levels within 2 hours. Whole blood serotonin levels were almost unaffected by the Trp [tryptophan] infusions [in spite of the massive conversion of the tryptophan to 5-HTP in the blood]. (24) Thus, both clinical studies and blood serotonin measurements in response to dramatically increased blood 5-HTP levels fail to support the Warning claims that 5-HTP without PDI will only elevate blood serotonin and not brain serotonin levels.

The Warning circulating in the life extension/nutrition community also states that the high blood levels of serotonin (allegedly) ensuing from using 5-HTP without PDI, would cause blood platelets to clot up, triggering a heart attack, or cause a spasm of heart arteries (coronary artery vasospasm), also triggering a heart attack. Again, if this were a real-world-problem, then the many test subjects taking 5-HTP without PDIs should have suffered numerous heart attacks yet nowhere is this mentioned in the vast literature on 5-HTP! It should be noted here that platelet-aggregation and vasospasm heart attacks can be triggered in moments, even in perfectly healthy and non-occluded arteries. Thus, even a single dose of 5-HTP, not to mention weeks or months of 5-HTP use, would be sufficient to elicit a heart attack, if this were really a serious problem. As Byerley et al note in a major review article on 5-HTP use: Researchers who reported on the results of various laboratory functions (hematologic [i.e., blood], liver, kidney, etc.) found that 5 -HTP caused no significant changes ... . Oral administration of 5-HTP, with or without carbidopa [a PDI], is associated with few adverse side effects. (2) As Poeldinger et al note: In general, 5-HTP-induced adverse events worthy of note are rare within the therapeutic dosage range. (4)

Those concerned about even the theoretical possibility of 5-HTP use triggering platelet-aggregation heart attacks or coronary artery vasospasm heart attacks may minimize any such risks through a nutrient supplement program that specifically inhibits these two problems (which, of course, can and do occur in people who never take 5-HTP). According to Melvyn Werbach, M.D., 1 gm of vitamin C three times daily, 400 - 600 iu vitamin E daily, 500 -1000 mg calcium daily, 400 - 600 mg magnesium daily, 200 mcg selenium daily, and 1.5 gm EPA from fish oil daily will significantly reduce risk of platelet-aggregation and vasospasm heart attacks. (27,28)

The Warning also claims that Americans use of vitamin B-6 supplements further worsens 5-HTPs (alleged) danger, since B-6 activates the enzyme that could convert 5-HTP to serotonin in the bloodstream. Yet experiments with monkeys (18) and rats (19) fed even moderate excess amounts of B-6, increased brain serotonin production up to 60%--an impossible finding if B-6 would cause the bulk of ingested 5-HTP to be prematurely converted to serotonin outside the brain. And College Pharmacy of Colorado, one of Americas premier mail-order compounding pharmacies, has been selling (by prescription) a 100 mg 5-HTP with 12.5 mg B-6 (and no PDI) since 1990 with no problems.

The Warning also offers the scary scenario that a rare type of serotonin-secreting tumor, called hind-gut carcinoid, may also be associated with fibrosis of the heart muscle and heart valves, and heart failure. However, the Warning offers no evidence (and doesnt really claim, but merely implies) that taking 5-HTP supplements at reasonable doses would actually cause these tumors, or the heart damage occasionally associated with them (one study found 19 out of 604 carcinoid patients with high blood serotonin and valvular heart damage). (20) Furthermore, studies of carcinoid heart patients have been done which find no correlation between blood levels of serotonin and the heart disease sometimes found with carcinoid syndrome. Thus one report notes: We have also studied the correlation between plasma hormone levels (e.g., 5-hydroxytryptamine {5-HT} [serotonin] and substance P) and the degree of cardiac involvement... No correlation between blood levels of 5-HT or substance P and heart involvement was found. (25) Another report states: Analysis of the data shows that unlike animal models, there is no difference in serum serotonin and urinary 5 hydroxyindole acetic acid [the chief serotonin metabolite] levels in patients with carcinoid syndrome with or without cardiac involvement (26) Nonetheless, prudence suggests that in those rare individuals suffering metastatic carcinoid disease, 5-HTP use should probably be undertaken only with a physicians recommendation and supervision.

The same paragraph mentions a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content. Firstly, it should be noted that 5-HTP is not serotonin, and the brains rapid absorption of 5-HTP from the blood provides an escape hatch from the bloodstream for ingested 5-HTP, before it can be converted to serotonin in the blood. If preformed serotonin were ingested and absorbed (as from the green banana mush), it would not have this same brain escape hatch to remove it from the blood. When high serotonin diets have actually been studied, (21) increases of blood serotonin have been neither consistent, nor as high as that seen in the carcinoid patients.

Lastly, the Warning asserts that taking 5-HTP is safe only if one has regular tests to determine urinary levels of 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid (5HIAA). 5HIAA is the chief breakdown metabolite of serotonin. The Warning asserts 5-HTP is safe only if urinary 5HIAA levels remain low. Yet the 1992 Italian obesity study (11) that used 900 mg 5-HTP daily (without PDI) for 12 weeks found a 50-fold increase in urinary 5HIAA compared to the placebo-control patients. It also found no blood chemistry abnormalities in the 5-HTP group and no difference in side effects between the 5-HTP and placebo patients. The study concluded by stating: ... the good tolerance to 5-HTP treatment observed suggest[s] that this substance may be safely used in the long-term treatment of obesity. The Warning claims that Some people ... could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload [from 5-HTP ingestion]. Yet in the hundreds of papers published on 5-HTP during the past 30 years, I have not been able to uncover a single reported incident of death or serious injury from oral 5-HTP use. The Warning also does not cite even a single published medical reference to any such presumed death or injury.

In summary, the anti-5-HTP allegations made by the Warning are falsified by the vast body of published scientific literature on 5-HTP. The main side effect occasionally experienced by 5-HTP users reported in the scientific literature is gastrointestinal (GI) upset gas, nausea, diarrhea, and cramping. This GI upset happens only to a minority of users, and even then, only occasionally. It usually lessens or disappears in the first few days or weeks of use. The published studies also indicate that taking 5-HTP with food (i.e., partway through a meal or snack) also minimizes the risk of GI upset. Starting with a low dose (25-50 mg) and increasing the dose slowly (every 3 - 5 days) up to a maximum of 200 - 300 mg daily will also minimize risk of GI upset. Total daily intake should be divided into 2 - 4 doses, with no more than 100 mg per dose. Those suffering from gut disorders, such as ulcers, irritable bowel disease, Crohns disease, celiac disease (sprue), etc., and those with just an extremely sensitive GI tract, should probably use 5-HTP with great caution, or not at all. The use of aloe vera juice/gel and/or ginger extracts may lessen or eliminate the occasional GI side effects of 5-HTP.

A final note of caution: 5-HTP may intensify the effects of various antidepressant drugs. Van Praag notes that 5-HTP combined with the tricyclic antidepressant clomipramine proved more effective than clomipramine alone. (22) Yet because of the potentially powerful but unpredictable synergy to increase brain serotonin when 5-HTP is combined with serotonin-potentiating drugs, those using MAO-inhibitor drugs, tricyclic antidepressants, SSRIs such as Prozac, Paxil or Zoloft, and the diet drugs Pondimin (DL-fenfluramine) or Redux (D-fenfluramine), should use 5-HTP only with medical supervision. Similarly, those wishing to reduce or eliminate their serotonin-potentiating drugs with 5-HTP, should do so only with medical supervision.

References:
1. K. Zmilacher, et al. L-5-Hydroxytryptophan Alone and in Combination with a Peripheral Decarboxylase Inhibitor in the Treatment of Depression. Neuropsychobiology. 1988; 20: 28-35.

2. W. Byerley, et al. 5-Hydroxytryptophan: A Review of Its Antidepressant Efficacy and Adverse Effects. J Clin Psychopharmacol 1987; 7: 127-37.

3. S. Risch and C. Nemeroff. Neurochemical Alterations of Serotonergic Neu ronal Systems in Depression. J Clin Psychiatry. 1992; 53: 3-7.

4. W. Poeldinger, et al. A Functional-Dimensional Approach to Depression: Serotonin Deficiency as a Target Syndrome in a Comparison of 5 -Hydroxytryptophan and Fluvoxamine. Psychopathology. 1991; 24: 53-81.

5. H. van Praag. Management of Depression with Serotonin Precursors. Biol Psychiatry. 1981; 16: 291-310.

6. S Takahashi, et al. Effect of L-5-Hydroxytryptophan on Brain Monoamine Metabolism and Evaluation of Its Clinical Effect in Depressed Patients. Psychiat Res 1975; 12: 177-87.

7. R. Kahn and H. Westenberg. L-5-Hydroxytryptophan in the Treatment of Anxiety Disorders. J Affect Disord, 1985; 8: 197-200.

8. V. Linnoila and M. Virkkunen. Aggression, Suicidality, and Serotonin. J Clin Psychiatry. 1992; 53: 46-51.

9. L. Buydens-Branchey, et al. Age of Alcoholism Onset. II. Relationship to Susceptibility to Serotonin Precursor Availability. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1989; 46: 231-36.

10. J. Wurtman. Carbohydrate Craving, Mood Changes and Obesity. J Clin Psychiatry. 1988; 49: 37-39.

11. C. Cangiano, et al. Eating Behavior and Adherence to Dietary Prescriptions in Obese Adult Subjects Treated with 5-Hydroxytryptophan. Am J Clin Nutr 1992; 56: 863-7.

12. D. Murphy et al. Obssessive-Compulsive Disorder as a 5-HT Subsytem -Related Behavioural Disorder. Bri J Psychiatry. 1989; 155: 15-24.

13. C. Maurizi. The Therapeutic Potential for Tryptophan and Melatonin: Possible Roles in Depression, Sleep, Alzheimers Disease and Abnormal Aging. Med Hypoth. 1990; 31: 233-42.

14. G. DeBenedittis and R. Massei. 5-HT Precursors in Migraine Prophy laxis: A Double-Blind Cross-Over Study with L-5-Hydroxytryptophan versus Placebo. Clin J Pain. 1986; 3: 123-29.

15. J. Robertson and T. Monte. Natural ProzacLearning to Release Your Bodys Own Anti-Depressants. San Francisco: Harper; 1997.

16. A. Gaby. B6The Natural Healer. New Canaan: Keats: 1984.

17. H. van Praag. Studies of the Mechanism of Action of Serotonin Precursors in Depression. Psychopharmacol Bull. 1984; 20: 599-602.

18. P. Hartvig et al. Pyridoxine Effect on Synthesis Rate of Serotonin in the Monkey Brain Measured with Positron Emission Tomography. J Neural Trans. 1995; 102: 91-7.

19. K. Dakshinamurti, et al. Influence of B Vitamins on Binding Properties of Serotonin Receptors in CNS of Rats. Klin Wochenschr. 1990; 68: 142-45.

20. M. Jacobsen, et al. Cardiac Manifestations in Mid-gut Carcinoid Disease. Eur Heart J. 1995; 16: 263-68.

21. Y. Hoshino, et al. Serum Serotonin Levels of Normal Subjects in Physiological State and Stress Conditions. Jpn J Psychosom Med. 1979; 19: 283-93.

22. H. van Praag. Central Monoamine Metabolism in Depressions. I. Serotonin and Related Compounds. Compreh Psychiatry. 1980; 21: 30-43.

23. T. Li Kam Wa, et al. Blood and Urine 5-Hydroxytryptamine [Serotonin] Levels after Administration of Two 5-Hydroxytryptophan Precursors in Normal Man. Bri J Clin Pharmacol. 1995; 39:327-29.

24. G. Huether, et al. The Metabolic Fate of Infused L-Tryptophan in Men: Possible Clinical Implications of the Accumulation of Circulating Tryptophan and Tryptophan Metabolites. Psychopharmacol (Germany). 1992; 109: 442-32.

25. K. Tornebrandt, et al. Heart Involvement in Metastatic Carcinoid Disease. Clin Cardiol. 1986; 9 (1).

26. R. Arora and R. Warner. Do Indole Markers Predict Carcinoid Heart Disease? Chest. 1986; 90: 87-9.

27. M. Werbach. Nutritional Influences on Illness, 2nd ed. Atherosclerosis, 57-102. Tarzana, CA: Third Line Press; 1996.

28. P. Turlapaty and B. Altura. Magnesium Deficiency Produces Spasms of Coronary Arteries: Relationship to Etiology of Sudden Death Ischemic Heart Disease. Science. 1980; 208: 198-200.
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