20 replies to this topic

[Mind]

A nice entry over at the less wrong blog - Eliezer implores parents to sign their kids up for cryonics. Interesting comments as well.

You know what? I'm going to come out and say it. I've been unsure about saying it, but after attending this event, and talking to the perfectly ordinary parents who signed their kids up for cryonics like the goddamn sane people do, I'm going to come out and say it: If you don't sign up your kids for cryonics then you are a lousy parent.

If you aren't choosing between textbooks and food, then you can afford to sign up your kids for cryonics. I don't know if it's more important than a home without lead paint, or omega-3 fish oil supplements while their brains are maturing, but it's certainly more important than you going to the movies or eating at nice restaurants.

[Cameron]

I'm not so sure it's such a good idea to do that. I mean unless you make it to escape velocity you likely won't be around to look after your kids' frozen bodies|heads, and obviously they won't be able to defend their interest directly either. It is conceivable that some dystopian future could occur were death would be preferable to being awakened from a cryonic state.

PS

I should also add that it is not inconceivable that an even more advanced technology could be used to reconstitute one irregardless of mode of death.

[David Styles]

I'm not so sure it's such a good idea to do that. I mean unless you make it to escape velocity you likely won't be around to look after your kids' frozen bodies|heads, and obviously they won't be able to defend their interest directly either. It is conceivable that some dystopian future could occur were death would be preferable to being awakened from a cryonic state.

I would say that maybe alive is definitely better than definitely dead. The latter point you make is subjective; preferable to whom? I cannot conceive of any eventuality that is worse to me than my death. Anything, however terrible, being tortured constantly in a Dante-esque Hell, would mean I had some hope of things improving at some point in the future. I realise that others opinions may vary in this regard, and since it is a subjective value judgement rather than an objective fact, I respect those opinions and consider conclusions based on their use as premises to be valid, insofar as one can hold the premise to be valid (ie, since the premise may be true for you, but is not for me, then both our conclusions are valid, and I say that out of logic, not out of any emotional need to make peace with everyone - if I do disagree with a philosophical point, I'll say so).

I should also add that it is not inconceivable that an even more advanced technology could be used to reconstitute one irregardless of mode of death.

True, but I'd rather improve my chances however I can, right down to "Plan Z".

[advancedatheist]

It is conceivable that some dystopian future could occur were death would be preferable to being awakened from a cryonic state.

Like waking up in Haiti now? The Haitians still seem to value their lives despite the current awfulness. Some of them might even have rational expectations of getting better living conditions than they had before the earthquake.

You also have to internalize the long-term perspective that radical life extension brings. Suppose you wake up in a Future World, say, FW₂₂₀₀, where you don't like the quality of life, but still have the opportunity to live a long time. You could tough it out for better things in FW₂₃₀₀, FW₂₄₀₀, or however long it takes; or you could discipline your desires to make FW₂₂₀₀ livable, like a good Stoic. Hooking up with cryonauts in similar situations would probably help as well.

Edited by advancedatheist, 21 January 2010 - 07:19 PM.

[Cameron]

It is conceivable that some dystopian future could occur were death would be preferable to being awakened from a cryonic state.

Like waking up in Haiti now? The Haitians still seem to value their lives despite the current awfulness. Some of them might even have rational expectations of getting better living conditions than they had before the earthquake.

You also have to internalize the long-term perspective that radical life extension brings. Suppose you wake up in a Future World, say, FW₂₂₀₀, where you don't like the quality of life, but still have the opportunity to live a long time. You could tough it out for better things in FW₂₃₀₀, FW₂₄₀₀, or however long it takes; or you could discipline your desires to make FW₂₂₀₀ livable, like a good Stoic. Hooking up with cryonauts in similar situations would probably help as well.

It is the possibility of power irreversibly concentrating into an unstable|deranged intellect, say a superintelligence, that worries me. Virtual reality cannot only liberate the mind but it can also be the ultimate prison, when coupled with nanotech, there's no waking up, no escape, not even suicide is possible. If one imagines the horrors seen in fiction, while they may befall one at present there is the possibility of escape or at least death. But in a virtual prison the tortures and horrors can be perpetuated indefinitely, with advanced neuroscience memory and feelings may be modified and even intensified such that the pain|suffering may never decrease in vivid intensity through the passage of time. The only hope, in such cases, would be that something, maybe external forces or the heat death of the universe, would be unavoidable in the long term for such an entity.

[advancedatheist]

It is the possibility of power irreversibly concentrating into an unstable|deranged intellect, say a superintelligence, that worries me. Virtual reality cannot only liberate the mind but it can also be the ultimate prison, when coupled with nanotech, there's no waking up, no escape, not even suicide is possible.

Assuming Future World would bother to revive us in good health, the odds favor an average outcome between excessive solicitude and excessive hostility towards us. (I guess you could call that the Copernican Revival Principle.) After the novelty about us wears off, we'll probably have to make our own ways in life like everyone else.

[advancedatheist]

For example, do you expect the people in Future World to treat you like a perpetual celebrity, showering you with a fortune, praise, new sex partners, book deals and a contract for your own talk show (kind of like a forever Oprah)?

Of course not. But why? That sounds about as likely as the scenario where someone in Future World tortures you in virtual reality indefinitely. Assuming you can pass through the revival bottleneck, an average situation seems much more likely.

[enoonsti]

Everything I said (aka: grasping at straws)

I guess someday a loving grandparent will suggest: "Grandson, I want you to live a wonderful life. Then kill your family before the robots attack." Well anyways, Cameron. I noticed you said "escape velocity." Aubrey de Grey likes to say that. You know what Aubrey also likes? Cryonics. I mention this because I just wanted to make sure you know what you're talking about, as opposed to inserting random buzz words simply to make you sound "futuristic"


Please read this Depressed Metabolism article about cryonics and the "something else".


p.s. I'm glad Eliezer went ape-shit. We need more of this

Edited by enoonsti, 22 January 2010 - 02:20 AM.

[Cameron]

I guess it all depends on the plausibility of super intelligence and what that entails(especially provided the realistic possibility of a time gap between the first and second super intelligence).

There are 2 possibilities for dismissing the possibility of dystopia postulated here a.) you don't take it is plausible for a super intelligence to come into being, b.) you don't believe its existence could have a substantial possibility of resulting in some sort of horrific dystopia as postulated(for whatever reason.).

My view is that it is plausible super intelligence is possible, that it is also plausible that a gap of at least a few years could conceivably exist, and that this has a high probability of resulting in irreversible concentration of power that will simply render the will of the members of all nations moot. I doubt such a scenario would result in dystopia, but as said I'm open to the possibility. Absolute power, allows an entity to do whatever it pleases, should malevolence be possible in such a being and it happened to be present it could very well create hell on earth.

PS

The escape velocity is in reference to there being someone, who cares enough, capable of physically destroying the brain of an individual in a cryo state should it seem such a scenario is taking place. Other possible negative outcomes might not be as easily avoidable without increased security(Say having one's remains stolen, sold, and waking as some immortal's personal slave in some vr jail.).

[Kutta]

@enoosti:

Congrats, you just won the thread!

[advancedatheist]

I guess someday a loving grandparent will suggest: "Grandson, I want you to live a wonderful life. Then kill your family before the robots attack."

I joked to Dave Pizer one time that he could wake up in Future World where the doctor tells him: "I have good news, and bad news, Mr. Pizer. The good news is that we've discovered how to keep the human body and mind alive in good health forever. The bad news is that a comet will strike our planet tomorrow and wipe out all life. So I guess you're 'immortal for a day'!"

[Luna]

It is conceivable that some dystopian future could occur were death would be preferable to being awakened from a cryonic state.

Like waking up in Haiti now? The Haitians still seem to value their lives despite the current awfulness. Some of them might even have rational expectations of getting better living conditions than they had before the earthquake.

You also have to internalize the long-term perspective that radical life extension brings. Suppose you wake up in a Future World, say, FW₂₂₀₀, where you don't like the quality of life, but still have the opportunity to live a long time. You could tough it out for better things in FW₂₃₀₀, FW₂₄₀₀, or however long it takes; or you could discipline your desires to make FW₂₂₀₀ livable, like a good Stoic. Hooking up with cryonauts in similar situations would probably help as well.

It is the possibility of power irreversibly concentrating into an unstable|deranged intellect, say a superintelligence, that worries me. Virtual reality cannot only liberate the mind but it can also be the ultimate prison, when coupled with nanotech, there's no waking up, no escape, not even suicide is possible. If one imagines the horrors seen in fiction, while they may befall one at present there is the possibility of escape or at least death. But in a virtual prison the tortures and horrors can be perpetuated indefinitely, with advanced neuroscience memory and feelings may be modified and even intensified such that the pain|suffering may never decrease in vivid intensity through the passage of time. The only hope, in such cases, would be that something, maybe external forces or the heat death of the universe, would be unavoidable in the long term for such an entity.

There was the article of the man being 13 or 17 years in fake coma. He was thought to be in coma but was actually completely paralyzed. He managed to hold himself in. That encourages me that even if I am in that situation, that I hope there will be no external forces to kill me ever. I really hope there is no heat death of the universe or anything else like that.

But I also really hope I won't be in that situation ^^

I have to completely agree with advancedatheist. It might be bad for 200 years but hey, there is infinite of years later too! and as long as if have something to do about it, we can change it for the better!

P.S. I am against living in a Virtual Reality. I am not again Virtual Reality, I think it can be fun - playing a real feeling MMO. But living in there is stupid.

[Luna]

I don't get Cameron. Are you saying like "don't bother to try because it will all MIGHT come really bad, even if it succeeds"?

If that's what you mean, well, what, is no chance better? And hey, what if you wake up into some bad scenario, at least you have hope of getting out of it!

[enoonsti]

@enoosti:

Congrats, you just won the thread!

Thank you. I will accept my prize in unmarked one-dollar bills.

I joked to Dave Pizer one time that he could wake up in Future World where the doctor tells him: "I have good news, and bad news, Mr. Pizer. The good news is that we've discovered how to keep the human body and mind alive in good health forever. The bad news is that a comet will strike our planet tomorrow and wipe out all life. So I guess you're 'immortal for a day'!"

This is why I keep telling people that we need to get Bruce Willis on board with cryonics. (We don't need to worry about Ben Affleck though).

In the Year of our Lord 1314, patriots of Scotland - starving and outnumbered - charged the fields of Bannockburn. They fought like warrior poets; they fought like Scotsmen, and won their freedom.

Cameron, I'm glad you were a good sport and did not lash out at my sarcasm. Nevertheless, I'm simply going to give you another scoop of it. Why? I mean, isn't this Imminst and we're supposed to help answer legitimate arguments? Well, yes, and I certainly enjoyed discussing cryonics with JJN because it was a refreshing change of pace. Yet as it turns out, most arguments against cryonics can be reduced to the following scene:


Jerry: Is this guy a dentist or Caligula?

Elaine: Okay, so you were violated by two people while you were under the gas. So what? You're single.

Jerry: But I'm damaged goods now.

Elaine: Join the club.


That was from "The Jimmy," the 105th episode of Seinfeld. Jerry had been sedated at Dr. Whatley's office; upon awakening, he finds Dr. Whatley and a nurse still dressing up. And I usually think of the episode because the problem with the science of cryonics is that its been overshadowed by external - and completely comical - politics. As Aschwin de Wolf puts it: "When a person goes in for surgery it is not common to engage medical personnel in abstract arguments about the nature of identity" [or the possibility of doctors having sex] "prior to induction of anesthesia."


I have a feeling what really worries you are taxes. Or that annoying aunt who keeps calling at odd hours. Or any of the other ordinary things that ordinary folks worry about. This stuff mentioned above that "worries" you is just stuff you found while grocery shopping online and were like, "Ooo, I'll take a bit of this for my argument. Ooooo, and this too!" Much like when Tyler Cowen preferred an infinite universe with copies of himself as opposed to cryonics. I mean, I'm rather surprised he said that with a straight face.


Threats deserve their time and place. And I'm glad you admitted that they aren't inevitable, because if they were inevitable, then everybody in the world should play a quick game of Scrabble and commit mass suicide. Hence, I hope you understand why I find it frustrating that a person in hospice is just about to undergo the initial steps of cryonics.... and then..... then..... you stumble in and yell, "THE ROBOTS MY GOD THE ROBOTS." So here, let me just stress the concepts you brought up, and the people who were key in developing them:


"escape velocity": Aubrey de Grey (I insist)

"superintelligence": Nick Bostrom, Eliezer Yudkowsky, more

"nanotech(nology)": Eric Drexler, Ralph Merkle, more


What do all these people have in common? They're signed up for cryonics. This should tell you something. And for whatever it's worth, I've read Global Catastrophic Risks (I even tore apart William Clark's Amazon review). So from my vantage point, it appears you're resting on "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream." Needless to say, I'm waiting to be impressed, which will come about upon linking to your extensive area of research. Otherwise, I will not waste time debating you for the same reasons that scientists do not waste time with creationists.

...

Please just help with cryonics. You're not a dummy, and it needs all the help it can get.

[Shannon Vyff]

I commented in that thread, and on cryo-net--his post emotionally touched me. I wrote "21st Century Kids" to excite children about the possibilities of the future--it also addresses the fears involved with doing cryonics (the sadness/anger of losing loved ones if it does work, living with uncertainty as to if it will work and the reasons to still support it).

Ray Kurzweil is also a cryonicist in addition to those listed above, it is a second best alternative to ending aging in ones' lifetime through biological or technological (uploading et al.) ways.

[Cameron]

P.S. I am against living in a Virtual Reality. I am not again Virtual Reality, I think it can be fun - playing a real feeling MMO. But living in there is stupid.

IF your brain is connected to a vr machine and you're then awakened, assuming it is by a hostile entity, there is no way to choose not to be living there, there might not even be a way for you to tell you're in vr.

I don't get Cameron. Are you saying like "don't bother to try because it will all MIGHT come really bad, even if it succeeds"?

If that's what you mean, well, what, is no chance better? And hey, what if you wake up into some bad scenario, at least you have hope of getting out of it!

If we assume immortality, space-travel and self-sufficiency is possible, any being with said capabilities that illegally acquires a cryo state individual will be for all intents and purposes able to keep such indefinitely, and in the event he may be about to lose such he could have set a self-destruct mechanism on his victim.

It is highly doubtful any entity|government may be able to thoroughly check the facilities of each and every individual wherever they may reside in space and irregardless of how well armed|defended|concealed they may be. Thus in such cases no realistic hope can seemingly exist.

As for trying I believe it is a good idea if you can have functioning individuals(family or maybe an institution or something) that can provide for the security|safety of your cryo state body.

What do all these people have in common? They're signed up for cryonics. This should tell you something. And for whatever it's worth, I've read Global Catastrophic Risks (I even tore apart William Clark's Amazon review). So from my vantage point, it appears you're resting on "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream." Needless to say, I'm waiting to be impressed, which will come about upon linking to your extensive area of research. Otherwise, I will not waste time debating you for the same reasons that scientists do not waste time with creationists.

...

Most of the stuff, I've been originally exposed through fiction. While it may not have been called that, it is pretty clear that what has been passed as genius in comic books for decades is clearly a superintelligence(handicapped by plot|writers).

Had I not known of the popular escape velocity idea from Aubrey, I would have simply said until biological-immortality|aging-is-cured becomes a reality.

Anyone who's been exposed to sufficient works of fictions knows of the horrors that can take place. The future, if technological progress continues, seems to promise massive powers for individuals, and the possibility of acquiring practical immunity from virtually all of the laws, for better or worse. At present a person can spend months or years locked in a basement with an acceptable probability of escape. The probability of escaping an immortal being in a self-sufficient facility who's locked you in vr and has moved to a remote corner of the galaxy, is for all practical purposes zero. Though in most cases that might not be as bad as it seems, so long as true malevolence is not present.

Please just help with cryonics. You're not a dummy, and it needs all the help it can get.

The help it needs is to show viable reversibility. If the technology improved and they'd show even in just animals, that it is reversible, I'm pretty sure massive numbers both in terms of money and people would go their way. Many people with terminal diseases, or months to live, would obviously join in as it'd be the rational thing to do(this would also make it more socially appealing and lead to more people joining such, irregardless of their health status.). Space agencies would invest and use the technology to travel to other planets with far lower costs.

[enoonsti]

I commented in that thread, and on cryo-net--his post emotionally touched me. I wrote "21st Century Kids" to excite children about the possibilities of the future--it also addresses the fears involved with doing cryonics (the sadness/anger of losing loved ones if it does work, living with uncertainty as to if it will work and the reasons to still support it).

Ray Kurzweil is also a cryonicist in addition to those listed above, it is a second best alternative to ending aging in ones' lifetime through biological or technological (uploading et al.) ways.

Shannon, I had been meaning to purchase your book for a while (things kept getting in the way) but I just ordered it now via Amazon. Thank you for writing it, because families really need books that they can read together. I don't have a family (I'm pretty lame.... I have a crush on someone who probably doesn't even like me, haha), but if I ever have one, I have a feeling it will be the first book we all read together

The help it needs is to show viable reversibility, so it sucks to be a person dying today.

So in the meantime, let's crack out the champagne and let the bodies hit the floor! 150,000 per day! Woohoo!

[Cameron]

The help it needs is to show viable reversibility, so it sucks to be a person dying today.

So in the meantime, let's crack out the champagne and let the bodies hit the floor! 150,000 per day! Woohoo!

I'm not sure storing 150k bodies per day is viable without some technological advance. In short time we'd have billions of stored bodies. It's best to consider those that manage to acquire such privileged.

[enoonsti]

[Luke Parrish]

I love how Eliezer doesn't confuse emotion with irrationality.

[Luke Parrish]

The help it needs is to show viable reversibility, so it sucks to be a person dying today.

So in the meantime, let's crack out the champagne and let the bodies hit the floor! 150,000 per day! Woohoo!

I'm not sure storing 150k bodies per day is viable without some technological advance. In short time we'd have billions of stored bodies. It's best to consider those that manage to acquire such privileged.

Not only feasible, but far cheaper. Per person, that is.

Neuros are less resource-consuming, but fullbody locks more carbon out of the atmosphere.

Billions of neuros are only a few million cubic meters. The surface area of the structure that holds them is only a few thousand square meters. It would be far from the most ambitious project we've attempted.