19 replies to this topic

[nootropi]

Moved here

Edited by nootropi, 31 January 2005 - 12:19 AM.

[shpongled]

If it was due to the drugs, it would probably not be choline depletion, rather the reverse - excess cholinergic activity can lead to a headache.

I would give the same combo another try at another time though, see if it causes the headache again.

[D Sade]

FYI, I have been using 750mg of Aniracetam and (now down to) 800 of Piracetam twice a day and have had also had a headache for a few days now.

[ejdavis1]

I had a bad headache the first day that I used centrophenoxine with my usual stack along with oxyracetam also.

After backing off a little for a few days I am back to the same dose of 250mg twice a day of centrophenoxine with no tension or headaches.

[ejdavis1]

Adam:

Even though it works well for most people, Holosync is not for everyone. Some people love it and have little or no temporary side effects. I had a few bumps in the road which is very typical. Some people have a hard time with the product. Lots of discussion here:

http://b7.ezboard.com/bcenterpointe

Also, if you are a student, don't hesitate to take time off if it seems to be upsetting your ability to concentrate or your motivation. Just go back to it after the exam / presentation / project and the side effects do eventually leave on their own. I always take two weeks off for finals as a precautionary measure. I do this even if I am feeling fine with the CDs.

I saw some good results before the end of the 4 month first CD, some "OK" results after Level 1, but dynamite results both emotionally and intellectually towards the end of Level 2. This is fairly typical. I have not bit the "inner circle" hook yet, rather preferring to decide at each level if I will continue. I have ordered Level 3 and currently plan on completing at least through Awakening Level 4.

The nootropics and Rhodiola Rosea seem to knock down many of the undesired side effects, in my short experience.

It is much like working out - you have to put in the time and temporarily be a little sore before you can get stronger. Not everyone is going to put themselves through this, so in a way, the program could be viewed as a test of perserverence, determination, and character.

You'll get a barrage of advertising in the mail for a while. It ends after a while. Don't let that color your opinion of the product.

The effects of the brain's conditioning and the new connections between the hemispheres are supposedly permanent.

[lynx]

@ejdavis:

per your testimony, I ordered the first 4 month CD's of Holosync.  I must admit that the sales pitch intro CD is disappointing, however, I am using it, and will report my findings.  Thanks for the recommendation.

For anyone who has attention problems, I would be very careful using Holosync in the way it is recommended.

People with attention problems tend to have exaggerated resting theta and low beta. So, while using holosync what you are in fact doing is encouraging conscious theta/delta which will further screw up the theta/beta ratio.

This product caused me serious problems for the above mentioned reasons and I highly recommend you investigate it further. If you have a QEEG done, then you will be better able to judge whether it is for you.

The other thing to consider is that you can buy a very good light/sound machine, which will do exactly the same thing as holosync, for about $120.00. Don't believe all of their BS marketing claims, the guy used a binaural beat generator, made some tapes and is selling pseudoscience.

If you get a light/sound machine, you have a lot more flexibility, and you will save yourself thousands of dollars. Furthermore, light and sound machines provide attention/focus programs that are quite useful for studying, focusing. Holosync is based on the notion that staring at your navel will bring you to nirvana. Dubious, at best.

And always remember, you can return it.

[ejdavis1]

There is a PC based entrainment program from bwgen.com. There is a shareware version for free and a full version for 40 dollars. I bought it last year but after the novelty wore off, I stopped using it. The entrainment does not seem to be as effective as the Holosync CDs, particularly at lower frequencies. It is hard to perceive your own entrainment, but after several weeks I still was not getting the endorphin rush that I usually get at least once a week with holosync.

I don't know how clean the sine wave produced by the bwgen program is, but I do know that stepped or slightly imperfect sine waves do not entrain very well.

You could probably re-create the entire Holosync series using a bwgen or some other synthesizer device if you could figure out or reverse engineer the frequencies used. This would cost you probably less than a hundred dollars for software and CDs, etc.

For personal preference to using the strongest product with the longest track record, I stick with Holosync. I don't have the time nor the mental make-up to be trying to reverse engineer this system just to save a few bucks.

Holosync has been shown through tests to significantly lower cortisone levels and also to stimulate the production of HGH. But then again, so does a good workout.

[ejdavis1]

I'd like to make it clear that the "dynamite results towards the end of Level 2" that I referred to in an earlier post took me a year and a half of listening for an hour per day. Some people get dramatic results earlier, but I consider my progress with the program fairly typical.

Another good entrainment product is the Focus CD from Awakened Minds. I bought one and use it frequently. It entrains the brain at higher freqs for concentration and attention. They also sell an "Insight" CD which entrains low frequencies but only makes short excursions into the low frequencies. This supposedly results in a "kinder, gentler" growth and there is a lot of anectodal evidence that it works well. There is just one level to this CD, however, and my opinion is that only limited results would result.

The theory of Holosync is that since the brain eventually adapts to the signal, lower frequency carrier frequencies are needed to force continued development.

[lynx]

Well lynx, you kind are leaving me hanging with your post.  Please elaborate further about what a light sound machine is, a good one, what its benefits are, etc.

Thanks.

Light/sound machines combine photic stimulation, with audio. The original was the DAVID. The combination of photic driving and binaural entrainment is more powerful than Holosync. For beginning use, try the ORION, about $120.00.

I have a Nova Pro, and it works better than Holosync.

Really though, most of the profound effects from brain wave manipulation are more reliably achieved with EEG neurofeedback. I have a BrainMaster, which is a very good unit. The alpha/theta training sessions produce reliable AHA! experiences after some training. Furthermore, it is very useful in training sustained attention states.

For therapeutic purposes, among binaural, light/sound, EEG feedback, only EEG feedback has any extensive clinical studies to back it. With Binaural beats, studies have found that theta/delta training, like Holosync, makes people depressed. Additionally, low frequency dominance diminishes cognitive performance, and lower fequency alpha bands correlate with poor performance. Pretty simple. So what Centrepointe tells you is that they are stirring up unconscious conflicts, blah blah, blah, but all they are doing is making you depressed and stupid.

Furthermore, learning to control any aspect of one's physiology/psychology is inherently more powerful than relying on external forces to alter it. Generalization from lying down, and passively listening is not likely to extend to any useful areas of life. Whereas with EEG attention training, the protocol is done eyes open, interacting with the environment, which is more similar to real life cognitive demands.

Instead of mucking around with binaural beats, get an EEG feedback unit, and go straight to the source.

If you bought the full Holosync set up, it would cost way over $1000.00, for which you can buy a BrainMaster and really start directly influencing your neurology.





Physiol Behav. 1998 Jan;63(2):249-52. Related Articles, Links


Binaural auditory beats affect vigilance performance and mood.

Lane JD, Kasian SJ, Owens JE, Marsh GR.

Department of Psychiatry, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina, USA. jdlane@acpub.duke.edu

When two tones of slightly different frequency are presented separately to the left and right ears the listener perceives a single tone that varies in amplitude at a frequency equal to the frequency difference between the two tones, a perceptual phenomenon known as the binaural auditory beat. Anecdotal reports suggest that binaural auditory beats within the electroencephalograph frequency range can entrain EEG activity and may affect states of consciousness, although few scientific studies have been published. This study compared the effects of binaural auditory beats in the EEG beta and EEG theta/delta frequency ranges on mood and on performance of a vigilance task to investigate their effects on subjective and objective measures of arousal. Participants (n = 29) performed a 30-min visual vigilance task on three different days while listening to pink noise containing simple tones or binaural beats either in the beta range (16 and 24 Hz) or the theta/delta range (1.5 and 4 Hz). However, participants were kept blind to the presence of binaural beats to control expectation effects. Presentation of beta-frequency binaural beats yielded more correct target detections and fewer false alarms than presentation of theta/delta frequency binaural beats. In addition, the beta-frequency beats were associated with less negative mood. Results suggest that the presentation of binaural auditory beats can affect psychomotor performance and mood. This technology may have applications for the control of attention and arousal and the enhancement of human performance.

PMID: 9423966 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Int J Psychophysiol. 2003 Jan;47(1):75-85. Related Articles, Links


The effect of training distinct neurofeedback protocols on aspects of cognitive performance.

Vernon D, Egner T, Cooper N, Compton T, Neilands C, Sheri A, Gruzelier J.

Department of Cognitive Neuroscience and Behaviour, Imperial College London, Charing Cross Hospital, St. Dunstans Road, London W6 8RF, UK. d.vernon@ic.ac.uk

The use of neurofeedback as an operant conditioning paradigm has disclosed that participants are able to gain some control over particular aspects of their electroencephalogram (EEG). Based on the association between theta activity (4-7 Hz) and working memory performance, and sensorimotor rhythm (SMR) activity (12-15 Hz) and attentional processing, we investigated the possibility that training healthy individuals to enhance either of these frequencies would specifically influence a particular aspect of cognitive performance, relative to a non-neurofeedback control-group. The results revealed that after eight sessions of neurofeedback the SMR-group were able to selectively enhance their SMR activity, as indexed by increased SMR/theta and SMR/beta ratios. In contrast, those trained to selectively enhance theta activity failed to exhibit any changes in their EEG. Furthermore, the SMR-group exhibited a significant and clear improvement in cued recall performance, using a semantic working memory task, and to a lesser extent showed improved accuracy of focused attentional processing using a 2-sequence continuous performance task. This suggests that normal healthy individuals can learn to increase a specific component of their EEG activity, and that such enhanced activity may facilitate semantic processing in a working memory task and to a lesser extent focused attention. We discuss possible mechanisms that could mediate such effects and indicate a number of directions for future research.

PMID: 12543448 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Brain Topogr. 1993 Spring;5(3):241-51. Related Articles, Links


Alpha frequency, cognitive load and memory performance.

Klimesch W, Schimke H, Pfurtscheller G.

Dept. of Physiological Psychology, University of Salzburg, Austria.

EEG-signals were recorded from subjects as they performed a modified version of Schneider's and Shiffrin's memory search paradigm. The hypothesis was tested whether individual (centre of gravity) alpha frequency, termed IAF, is related to memory performance and/or attentional demands. The results show that memory performance exerts the strongest effect on IAF. As compared to a resting period, the difference in IAF between age-matched good and bad memory performers reached a maximum when subjects were actually retrieving information from their memory. During retrieval, the IAF of good performers is 1.25 Hz higher than for bad performers. Attentional and task demands also tend to reduce IAF, but as compared to memory performance-to a much lesser degree. The results of amplitude analyses demonstrate further that during retrieval, alpha desynchronization is more pronounced for bad performers than for good performers. Taken together, the results indicate that a decrease in IAF is always related to a drop in performance.

PMID: 8507550 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[lynx]

Well lynx, thanks for the replies, but I still do not understand the theory behind these devices of which you speak.  How do they work and what do they affect?

Thanks.

Hey adam,

I thought that since you had ordered the holosync that you had read the materials. I guess you haven't recieved them yet. After you read the holosync pseudoscientific tripe then my above post will make more sense.

Essentially my point is that if your goal is to improve cognition, then increasing waking slow waves is antithetical to that goal.

lynx

[ejdavis1]

Lynx,

I'm sure that your light/sound machines are very effective. I've heard a lot of good things about that technology. I also would not be surprised if it was more effective than Holosync. I'll concede that.

I infer from your comments that the L/S machines increase mental activity by increasing brainwave frequency. Sounds good so far but I don't know how much restructuring or growth results from high frequency entrainment. If the answer is "little or none," then this needs to be taken into account when comparing prices. The development resulting from Holosync is permanent for the rest of your life. You can also take a day, week, month, or year off and it picks back where you left off.

I don't feel like I need to defend Holosync because it is just a tool like many others. Many people despise Holosync and many people love it. I'm replying only to point out some glaring mis-statements and mis-interpretations that you posted.

Additionally, low frequency dominance diminishes cognitive performance, and lower fequency alpha bands correlate with poor performance. Pretty simple.

A Holosync user doesn't remain in delta dominant state after a Holosync session. As soon as he or she opens the eyes, the eeg picks back up. After a session, I feel a little sluggish for about a minute, and after that I find that I am sharper and more focused. Of course, trying to solve math problems with the headphones on playing Holosync would result in poor performance, which is what one of the studies you pasted concludes.

Users don't become more delta, theta, or low alpha dominant after even years of Holosync use. There are published EEG images of long-term Holosync users and one user also went and had some done for himself. Longtime Holosync users do have a more synchronized eeg, however, which leads to better reasoning, better memory recall, and other positive effects.

So what Centrepointe tells you is that they are stirring up unconscious conflicts, blah blah, blah, but all they are doing is making you depressed and stupid.

Notwithstanding hundreds of testimonials that I have seen (and seen, and seen - their marketing is a little smothering), myself and about a half dozen co-workers and close friends are finding that the exact opposite of your conclusory statement above is true. I have seen a lot of before and after grades and even IQ tests that people have done on a regular basis to see if Holosync is really helping them, and the results speak for themselves.

Edited by ejdavis1, 12 June 2004 - 11:20 PM.

[ejdavis1]

How do we get this thread moved to a new topic?

First call for Moderator

Adam: light alpha entrainment is good for me studying legal cases but for heavy duty reasoning, such as writing briefs and motions, I put on the Focus CD (http://www.awakenedminds.com) to entrain at a faster BETA. The Focus 2 CD set set also has an alpha and a theta entrainment track. The flute music on the Holosync bonus Alpha CD gets old fast. The Focus CD only has rain sound on it.

Lynx: Please don't mind me getting carried away about details. That's my job, that's what I do. BTW, what is that picture you use next to your username? It looks like a surreal image of a horse hanging from an upside down landscape.

Edited by ejdavis1, 13 June 2004 - 06:00 AM.

[lynx]

Lynx,

I'm sure that your light/sound machines are very effective.  I've heard a lot of good things about that technology.  I also would not be surprised if it was more effective than Holosync.  I'll concede that. 

I infer from your comments that the L/S machines increase mental activity by increasing brainwave frequency.  Sounds good so far but I don't know how much restructuring or growth results from high frequency entrainment.  If the answer is "little or none," then this needs to be taken into account when comparing prices.  The development resulting from Holosync is permanent for the rest of your life.  You can also take a day, week, month, or year off and it picks back where you left off. 

I don't feel like I need to defend Holosync because it is just a tool like many others.  Many people despise Holosync and many people love it.  I'm replying only to point out some glaring mis-statements and mis-interpretations that you posted. 

Additionally, low frequency dominance diminishes cognitive performance, and lower fequency alpha bands correlate with poor performance. Pretty simple.

A Holosync user doesn't remain in delta dominant state after a Holosync session. As soon as he or she opens the eyes, the eeg picks back up. After a session, I feel a little sluggish for about a minute, and after that I find that I am sharper and more focused. Of course, trying to solve math problems with the headphones on playing Holosync would result in poor performance, which is what one of the studies you pasted concludes.

Users don't become more delta, theta, or low alpha dominant after even years of Holosync use. There are published EEG images of long-term Holosync users and one user also went and had some done for himself. Longtime Holosync users do have a more synchronized eeg, however, which leads to better reasoning, better memory recall, and other positive effects.

So what Centrepointe tells you is that they are stirring up unconscious conflicts, blah blah, blah, but all they are doing is making you depressed and stupid.

Notwithstanding hundreds of testimonials that I have seen (and seen, and seen - their marketing is a little smothering), myself and about a half dozen co-workers and close friends are finding that the exact opposite of your conclusory statement above is true. I have seen a lot of before and after grades and even IQ tests that people have done on a regular basis to see if Holosync is really helping them, and the results speak for themselves.

Upon reviewing the literature at pubmed I have only been able to conclude that if prolonged use of binaural beats leads to increased EEG coherence, then it will indeed produce the advertised effects. Which, I must add, I found an extremely disappointing result, given my own personal dissatisfaction with Holosync. But, it looks like I am, once again, an outlier in the statistical amalgamation of my fellows.



Differences in resting EEG related to ability.

Jausovec N, Jausovec K.

Pedagoska fakulteta Maribor, Koroska, Slovenia.

The aim of the present study was to investigate the relationship between different EEG measures (mean power, mean frequency, approximated entropy and coherence), and ability (creativity and intelligence). For that purpose the EEG of 115 student-teachers (Intelligence: M= 115.17; SD = 12.78; IQ(min)= 82; IQ(max)= 136; Creativity - standardized scores: M = 55.97; SD = 10.67; C(min)= 38; C(max)= 84) was recorded while they were resting with eyes open and closed. The study showed only weak correlations between measures based on the level of activity in different areas (mean power, mean frequency and approximated entropy) and creativity. The correlations with IQ scores were even less pronounced. On the other hand, coherence measures showed a much more intense relationship both with creativity as well as with intelligence. In the eyes-open state these differences were mainly distributed over the right hemisphere. The results are discussed in the light of different theories relating brain functioning and ability.

PMID: 10791685 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Neurosci Lett. 1992 Aug 31;143(1-2):10-4. Related Articles, Links


Dimensional analysis of the human EEG and intelligence.

Lutzenberger W, Birbaumer N, Flor H, Rockstroh B, Elbert T.

Department of Clinical and Physiological Psychology, University of Tubingen, FRG.

The purpose of this study was the determination of the relationship between the dimensional complexity of the electroencephalogam (EEG) and the level of intelligence in humans. In two experiments 34 male subjects were divided into two groups, with high and low levels of intelligence (as measured by the intelligence quotient (IQ)). During a resting phase and various mental imagery conditions the EEG was recorded from several scalp sites. Nonlinear analysis, based on the theory of deterministic chaos, revealed that subjects with high IQs demonstrate higher dimensional complexity of the EEG attractors than subjects with low IQs only during resting conditions. During performance of the imagery tasks the less intelligent subjects increase the complexity of electrical brain dynamics such that IQ-dependency vanishes. The gross (mass) neuronal manifestation of general intelligence seems to depend on task conditions and may be related to the individual brain dynamics only when no specific task is present.

PMID: 1436649 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Many studies support the idea that during an active task demanding focus, dominant beta/SMR is more likely to be helpful. However, as the immediately above study indicates, high IQ people may need less beta/SMR to focus compared to lower functioning people.

In conclusion, theoretically Holosync just could work, and anecdotally it does. Just not for me.

[ejdavis1]

The subset of peopel who have bad or the wrong reactions to Holosync is substantial. Granted that satisfied users don't tend to post as much as dissatisfied users who feel ripped off or betrayed, but I've seen a lot of the latter online.

Maybe this is one reason that the company has the one year money back guarantee with their product.

[shapeshifter]

In the late eighties I had experiences with sound tapes with the same technique used in Holosync. It had helped me tremendously in deepening my meditations. Because those tapes now are all worn out, I was looking for a replacement (without success). Coincidentally I come across this conversation about Holosync. Now I've ordered those Holosync CD's.
I hope those CD's will give satisfying results.

[ejdavis1]

Adam,

You can do either, based on experimentation and personal preference. Users do both, and seem to be split about equally in their preferences.

I have briefly done the sessions early in the morning but for the past year I have done it at night. I personally prefer the evening session because it readies me for sleep, and stirred up stuff resolves while you sleep. There were times when for some reason, the session stimulated something inside me and I had trouble sleeping because my mind was very busy - but these were very rare. Probably less than a half dozen instances in a year and a half.

[shapeshifter]

I like those Holosync CD's but they are overly expensive. A very good alternative is this http://www.bliss-music.com
Check out this site.
And notice a comment from one of the users in:
http://www.bliss-mus...riccomments.htm
search for the word "Holosync" and read his comments.

[zencatholic]

Hi all,

I've been listening to Holosync for about 2 months now, mostly at night (because I simply don't have time during the day). My wife is already complaining about my headphone habit at nights. :-( I'm willing to "go along for the ride" to see what happens with any increase in my awareness. I started a thread in the Brain-Computer interface section of this site about Holosync and AM before I saw this discussion. I have long wanted to make "meditation" a part of my daily routine, and Holosync makes that possible. I will check out the other sites posted on this thread. So far, I am happy with H/S. I like the Awakened Minds CDs, although I haven't purchased them yet (just borrowed them from a friend). Thanks!

Peace be with you all,
AMDG

Zen Catholic