23 replies to this topic

[What'sAllThisThen]

I just found out about nootropics a couple weeks ago and they really sound too good to pass up. And too good to be true. And too fickle to bother. And to questionable to safely trust.

I read one thread that makes me think, "Damn, I'm gonna get me some of that." And then another thread, "Damn, I don't think I want that after all."

What I want to know is, is it really worth it? My plan was to get Piracetam, CDP, and Sulbutiamine. But I've read so many threads on it working for 3 days, and then they're foggy and tired. Or 2 weeks and it stops working and gives them fog. Or 3 months, etc.

I understand we're all different and need to find the right mix and balance, and I can't say I'd mind dealing with a little fog to find that. However, if I do find something that works, is it going to be so amazing that if it then stops working I'll actually feel worse off just because I knew how good it was? Like being a millionaire and then losing it all.

And what about extreme long term use? As in for life. What's the longest someone has taken these supplements with them being effective? Is it truly that safe? Would discontinuing after years of use leave you worse off than when you started (and this time I mean physically, not just emotional perception of losing your amazing positive effects)?

I imagine that if it worked, I'd want to keep that feeling for life. If not physically addicted, just simply addicted to the effects and finding going back to normalcy less than acceptable. Losing the effects after 2 weeks is one thing, but after 2 years... that's depressing. Especially if it leaves me cognitively/physically worse off. So is this something that can be taken forever, safely and effectively?

As it stands now, I'm almost too curious to pass it up. But also hesitant to fly so close to the sun. Which is another reason I'd like to start with really small doses and also see how coming off of them affects me.

[kassem23]

I just found out about nootropics a couple weeks ago and they really sound too good to pass up. And too good to be true. And too fickle to bother. And to questionable to safely trust.

I read one thread that makes me think, "Damn, I'm gonna get me some of that." And then another thread, "Damn, I don't think I want that after all."

What I want to know is, is it really worth it? My plan was to get Piracetam, CDP, and Sulbutiamine. But I've read so many threads on it working for 3 days, and then they're foggy and tired. Or 2 weeks and it stops working and gives them fog. Or 3 months, etc.

I understand we're all different and need to find the right mix and balance, and I can't say I'd mind dealing with a little fog to find that. However, if I do find something that works, is it going to be so amazing that if it then stops working I'll actually feel worse off just because I knew how good it was? Like being a millionaire and then losing it all.

And what about extreme long term use? As in for life. What's the longest someone has taken these supplements with them being effective? Is it truly that safe? Would discontinuing after years of use leave you worse off than when you started (and this time I mean physically, not just emotional perception of losing your amazing positive effects)?

I imagine that if it worked, I'd want to keep that feeling for life. If not physically addicted, just simply addicted to the effects and finding going back to normalcy less than acceptable. Losing the effects after 2 weeks is one thing, but after 2 years... that's depressing. Especially if it leaves me cognitively/physically worse off. So is this something that can be taken forever, safely and effectively?

As it stands now, I'm almost too curious to pass it up. But also hesitant to fly so close to the sun. Which is another reason I'd like to start with really small doses and also see how coming off of them affects me.

I completely understand your view. I have often thought about this as well, and it's interesting what the more professional people will say. But if you think about it, there are lots of people using different drugs every single day, that being painkillers or opiates and I just think: "What is better?". I understand it's a shitty argument, but it allows me to sleep at night.

I'm right now starting the same regime as bmud. I started on oxiracetam and sulbutiamine and I already feel much better. I don't know how it will go in long-term, but I hope it'll help in the same way it helped bmud.

[Ventus]

"So is this something that can be taken forever, safely and effectively?" The answer is probably no. I say probably because we do not know anything about the long-term effects. These drugs have not been around long enough.

Few days of reading the forum will not help you much. Opinions are biased and we have no control over what anyone can post. I suggest you to consult a doctor, if you live in the States there are quite a few who are competent on the subject. While you are at it, reading a book would not do any harm, "Mind Boosters" by Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a good place to start.

Ventus

[Dorho]

Some drugs, like piracetam, have been around long enough to pretty much guarantee their safety (when used in moderation, but that rule applies to everything). Actually, nootropics should be safe just because of the way this class of substances is defined. The definition includes this requirement: "They [nootropics] should lack the usual pharmacology of other psychotropic drugs (e.g. sedation, motor stimulation) and possess very few side effects and extremely low toxicity". The problem is that people are using the word carelessly and even talk of potentially dangerous stimulants like amphetamines as nootropics, which they are not.

What's important to understand is that the best (not meaning the most effective) nootropics, like CDP choline and methylcobalamin, repair the brains instead of wearing them out like stimulants do. I actually think it is important to use those kind of nootropics as general dementia and more severe neurodegenerative diseases are becoming the most important contributor to health-span limitation, eventually costing huge sums of money to states and thus decreasing everyone's quality of life.

Edited by Dorho, 02 February 2010 - 12:39 PM.

[Recortes]

I just found out about nootropics a couple weeks ago and they really sound too good to pass up. And too good to be true. And too fickle to bother. And to questionable to safely trust.

I read one thread that makes me think, "Damn, I'm gonna get me some of that." And then another thread, "Damn, I don't think I want that after all."

What I want to know is, is it really worth it? My plan was to get Piracetam, CDP, and Sulbutiamine. But I've read so many threads on it working for 3 days, and then they're foggy and tired. Or 2 weeks and it stops working and gives them fog. Or 3 months, etc.

I understand we're all different and need to find the right mix and balance, and I can't say I'd mind dealing with a little fog to find that. However, if I do find something that works, is it going to be so amazing that if it then stops working I'll actually feel worse off just because I knew how good it was? Like being a millionaire and then losing it all.

And what about extreme long term use? As in for life. What's the longest someone has taken these supplements with them being effective? Is it truly that safe? Would discontinuing after years of use leave you worse off than when you started (and this time I mean physically, not just emotional perception of losing your amazing positive effects)?

I imagine that if it worked, I'd want to keep that feeling for life. If not physically addicted, just simply addicted to the effects and finding going back to normalcy less than acceptable. Losing the effects after 2 weeks is one thing, but after 2 years... that's depressing. Especially if it leaves me cognitively/physically worse off. So is this something that can be taken forever, safely and effectively?

As it stands now, I'm almost too curious to pass it up. But also hesitant to fly so close to the sun. Which is another reason I'd like to start with really small doses and also see how coming off of them affects me.

As for me, I think it's crazy to take nootropics continously. Nothing is free, and there is problably side effects.

IMHO the clever way is to use them when they are necessary, and later stop them. Sometimes that can be even months, but no more than that. If you want something good for the long term for your brain focus in good nutrition and moderate (not much) exercise.

[chrono]

However, if I do find something that works, is it going to be so amazing that if it then stops working I'll actually feel worse off just because I knew how good it was? Like being a millionaire and then losing it all.

This is probably true of any good experience, unless you cultivate a disposition of acceptance modulated by ambition (or perhaps the other way around). Certain experiences can only last for a time, but if you don't strive for improvement, no matter how fleeting, won't life be lacking in richness.

Like you said, it's all about finding a balance, and a plan that's appropriate to your situation and each chemical. Some things might benefit you every day without harm, and other may work on the tolerance/addiction/withdrawal axis, and need to be used accordingly. Keep reading, every source you can find, and keep expanding the breadth and complexity of your understanding. Research is accelerating in this field, so there are rich possibilities if you learn to be realistic, and/or not be afraid of disappointment

[What'sAllThisThen]

Thanks. Many of your sentiments balance with mine. Such as, unknown long term use, moderation, anything good can be addictive, disappointment is part of life.

I'm gonna ponder for a bit longer, even though I am so curious about them. I just want a little something for motivation/focus and something to make me more-outgoing/mood-booster. Something safe and doesn't cause a crash, side effects, etc. I'm experimenting with Manganese right now, but so far nothing.

[Zoroaster]

Thanks. Many of your sentiments balance with mine. Such as, unknown long term use, moderation, anything good can be addictive, disappointment is part of life.

I'm gonna ponder for a bit longer, even though I am so curious about them. I just want a little something for motivation/focus and something to make me more-outgoing/mood-booster. Something safe and doesn't cause a crash, side effects, etc. I'm experimenting with Manganese right now, but so far nothing.

Just try it. For many people they works great and if you stick to the basics (piracetam, choline) the risk of harm, even over the long term is extremely, extremely small. And the risk of harm over the short term is zero. We do have enough safety information to know that. And many nootropics work great, but for me at least, I have no real desire to take them for the rest of my life. The simple inconvenience of having to take so many pills in the morning is enough to make me take a nootropic stack only when I need it. And another important fact is that it's not like these things will vastly improve your social interactions. You only really notice the difference when you're taxing yourself mentally. So studying, taking exams, perhaps in an in-depth debate or something. But it's not like it drastically changes your daily interactions to the point that you'd miss it terribly when it's gone. At least that's been my experience.

[chrono]

Indeed, just try it. Start with piracetam, and maybe CDP/GPC, it's harmless and fairly brilliant. I'd do this for a couple weeks and then try out sulbutiamine...it's tempting to start a bunch of helpful things all at once, but in the long run it's much more useful to be sure what each one does to you.

[What'sAllThisThen]

Later in the day, my thoughts are to just try it. But the last few days I've had a bit more anxiety and even some depression earlier in the day. I do have problems with anxiety, but I'm working on them with and without supplements.

So anytime I read something like, "piracetam gives me anxiety" or "choline can cause depression," I become hesitant. Then later in the day when I'm feeling well and confident I think, I'll just order and try them out because everyone is affected differently. The next morning I get waking anxiety and feel like I should wait.

I'm not sure why it's been worse the last 4 days as there's a few possibilities. One is Manganese, even though I've read a handful of people (one on this board, who also created a thread on another board) of getting good anti-anxiety effects from it. I started last Wednesday and worked up to 30mg in a few days to build it up faster. So perhaps it doesn't work for me, or perhaps I took too much. I'm not taking it today or for the next few to see if that's a possible cause.

Then there's my anti-anxiety program, where I have to face my fears. It's getting closer to where I have to dive in so I wonder if that's weighing on me. As well as another recent emotional issue. Plus, I gave blood on Monday which usually doesn't affect me but I do feel a little more out of it. Though, that may be causing additional fog it's not the main cause as I woke on Sunday with more waking anxiety than usual.

By the way, I call it "waking anxiety" because it's there when I wake up and actually wakes me up.

I wasn't going to start taking all 3 at once and I'm not sure about Sulbutiamine at all anymore. I was thinking start with CDP and see how it affects me and build some reserves and then add piracetam after a 2-3 days. And after I noticed positive/negative or no effects I'd check out Sulbutiamine.

If it doesn't really affect social interactions, then perhaps I'm looking at the wrong stack. However, I did start my research about them for motivation though, so that's still something I'm interested in. It's just that I started reading about them and finding many reporting anti-anxiety, increased sociability, etc. that made me more interested in them. I already take Amoryn and Serodyn which helps with anxiety/depression (contains things like SJW, theanine, etc.), but figured if these things increase motivation AND would provide additional help anxiety wise then that could be nice.

Either way, I want to wait a few days and see what's causing my recent downturn.

Edited by What'sAllThisThen, 03 February 2010 - 09:15 PM.

[chrono]

Piracetam helps me with social interaction in a roundabout way...I have social anxiety probably caused by dopamine problems (also attentional difficulties), and I have a horribly hard time getting myself to enter into social situations, even if there's a 100% chance I'll enjoy myself. Piracetam helps me get motivated, and makes it easier to avoid such ruts. I also have a tendency to be too quiet and not speak up, I feel like piracetam helps to balance that out as well. It's certainly not an automatic effect, but it helps if I'm working on these.

But its effects are mainly motivational/cognitive enhancing, so if you have a tendency to get stuck in negative thought loops, I'd start with a low dose. It can also help with reasoning, if you're trying to "think things through." It sounds like you would probably benefit from more anxiolytic substances, but piracetam has a very short action, and can improve your sense of well-being.

You can certainly take piracetam without a choline precursor. I need one, but it takes 2-3 days before I start getting brain fog/stuffy head feelings. If I take a few days off, I can start again with no troubles. And I know quite a few people who take it regularly with no/minimal side effects, so if you're worried about CDP causing depression, you could just wait and see if it's necessary.

Tried magnesium? Can help with depression/anxiety and well-being. Avoid the citrate, it's effective but can give you GI problems.

Manganese is on my list as well, for social anxiety. Need to do more research, but isn't 30mg in the upper range?


It sounds like you're in a place where you're making pre-judgements about the effectiveness of possible solutions based on your current mood. That makes it tough to try things out, even if their failure wouldn't really make things worse. Since the idea obvious attracts you, order some piracetam now, so you'll have some on-hand when you're in a good place to try it.

There's some great threads on here about anxiety and depression. The tone of this board is one of challenging ideas to find the truth, so don't necessarily let possible objections or "can cause..." statements prevent you from doing things that might help you.

[What'sAllThisThen]

Thanks, that's a real helpful reply.

I don't have terrible social anxiety, so just a general motivation and a slight push to be sociable could be good for me. I'm just more on the quiet side, as I can be around people and feel well and not anxious, but I don't speak up much. I have been changing some though and thought a little nootropic push may give that extra boost.

Starting on a low dose was my plan. I see many go for 1gram, so I was thinking 300mg to start. Though I have now run into threads where people mention 100mg+ being their sweet spot so I may start even lower than 300mg. Many people mention slight anxiolytic affects from Piracetam and it's the standard, so that's why I picked it. I might experiment with the greater anxiolytic affects of aniracetam later. Some supplements I already take contain anxiolytic ingredients (Niacin, magnesium, b12, sjw, theanine, etc), so that's why I'm not picking anything specific for that. Though I may scope out Ashwaghanda.

I was debating whether to try the Piracetam without Choline (to see if I perhaps didn't need Choline) or taking the Choline first without Piracetam to see if it caused it's own positive or negative effects. I generally eat 1-2 soft boiled eggs a day, so perhaps I could refrain from additional choline and see how piracetam affects me. Plus, I can always hit up a health store for CDP and save on not ordering that unless I absolutely need it.

There is magnesium in my supplements already, which is 175mg of Mag Taurinate. I take 5-6 a day. However, 175mg Magnesium Taurinate is in parentheses and next to that it says 14mg 3.5%RDA. So I don't know if that means I'm getting 14mg of elemental magnesium, or 14mg of bioavailable magnesium. Nice of them to have some additional truth in labeling though. I also take a multi-min which assuredly has some as well.

I also mix some Natural Calm Magnesium into my post workout protein shakes and my veggie smoothie everyday. That is citrate, but I don't get anything more than softer stools which is good IMO. I don't think I'm up to full dose though, I just sprinkle a little in.

Yes, 30mg is in the upper range of Manganese. The RDA is something like 2mg and the upper tolerable limit is 9mg. However, there doesn't seem to be any research to suggest that above that is dangerous. The only problems associated seem to be from industrial workers. I was only taking 30mg to perhaps speed it into my system. On the thread I read on a social anxiety board the thread starter took 20mg (later reduced to 10) and a woman came along and found results at 50mg. I was hoping to feel the affects and then reduce to 10mg. You can find the thread here.... Manganese for SA I bumped it, but no one chimed in with an update to its effects.

I'm definitely in a place where I'm prejudging based on my mood. I tend to do that, not to mention just analyze over and over and over (see where my anxiety comes from). Though it can be helpful at times as I've many a time wanted something that instant, but refrained only to find new info that supported my hesitation saving me lots of money and leading me to the proper solution. Problem is this time it's all anecdotal anyway and everyone's different so I need to just bite the bullet. Additional hesitation stems simply from the fact that I'd be taking piracetam in the morning and that's when I'm anxious. But that's all negative thinking and I'm gonna try it.

Thanks again.

[Animal]

Yes, 30mg is in the upper range of Manganese. The RDA is something like 2mg and the upper tolerable limit is 9mg. However, there doesn't seem to be any research to suggest that above that is dangerous.

Abstract

We report a rare case of manganese (Mn)-induced parkinsonism in a patient on maintenance hemodialysis therapy who complained of gait disturbance and dysarthria. His symptoms and abnormal magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) findings of the brain were thought to be caused, at least in part, by long-term ingestion of a health supplement (Chlorella extract) that contained 17 mg of Mn in the usual daily dose. Elevated serum and cerebrospinal fluid Mn levels were detected, and brain MRI showed areas of abnormal intensity in the bilateral basal ganglia (low intensity on T1-weighted images and high intensity on T2-weighted images). Edetic acid infusion therapy dramatically improved the MRI abnormalities, after which his symptoms gradually improved 4 months later.

Be careful with manganese doses above 10mg.

Edited by Animal, 04 February 2010 - 04:24 PM.

[What'sAllThisThen]

Yes, 30mg is in the upper range of Manganese. The RDA is something like 2mg and the upper tolerable limit is 9mg. However, there doesn't seem to be any research to suggest that above that is dangerous.

Abstract

We report a rare case of manganese (Mn)-induced parkinsonism in a patient on maintenance hemodialysis therapy who complained of gait disturbance and dysarthria. His symptoms and abnormal magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) findings of the brain were thought to be caused, at least in part, by long-term ingestion of a health supplement (Chlorella extract) that contained 17 mg of Mn in the usual daily dose. Elevated serum and cerebrospinal fluid Mn levels were detected, and brain MRI showed areas of abnormal intensity in the bilateral basal ganglia (low intensity on T1-weighted images and high intensity on T2-weighted images). Edetic acid infusion therapy dramatically improved the MRI abnormalities, after which his symptoms gradually improved 4 months later.

Be careful with manganese doses above 10mg.

Righteo, thanks Animal.

The 30mg was intended be temporary anyway. That must be one hell of a Chlorella extract, because my Chlorella powder only contains 0.12mg of Manganese per 2 grams of powder.

Funny that he got heavy metal poisoning from a product that is often recommended for natural oral chelation therapy. I guess he should have stuck to the powder.

[chrono]

Mg Taurate contains about 9% elemental magnesium, so I'm assuming that 14mg is the amount of actual Mg here. I've read that 350-400mg is about what you want for elemental dosage. I just ordered a 1kg tub of Mg Taurate from Vitaspace. I wonder if all of your dose coming from taurinate would give you more sleep/relaxation effects? I decided on the taurate because I don't particularly like the loose stool effect, taurine is cardioprotective and better for sleep/relaxation, and there was some concern that the citrate might increase retention of certain metals in the body (e.g. aluminum). These threads have great discussion on the different forms: Best Form of Supplemental Magnesium?, Bioavailability & elemental % of magnesium types.

I'd suggest 300mg as a good place to start with piracetam, but there's no harm in going lower if you're really worried. Do you take caffeine? It will tend to exacerbate any anxiety/jitters when combined with piracetam. I'd recommend Smart Powders, Mike has great customer service and is fairly active in our communities.

Is there some reason you wanted to take it in the morning? I usually time it to coincide with when I'll be using my brain the most, so these days I take a dose when I wake up, and another in the early afternoon. I can take it a few hours before bed and have no trouble getting to sleep, and I'm usually an insomniac. It might behoove you to wait until later in the morning or early afternoon, if your anxiety is strongest in the am.

Another thing you might want to look at is Bacopa. Combined with the magnesium it makes me very sleepy a few hours after I take them at night. I was taking it mainly for memory, but I seem to recall some mention of anxiety reduction as well. I actually stopped taking it a few nights ago, because it made me extremely groggy upon waking (I was taking about 130mg bacosides, which is a little high), but this might be a good thing for you?

Be sure to keep us posted!

[What'sAllThisThen]

Mg Taurate contains about 9% elemental magnesium, so I'm assuming that 14mg is the amount of actual Mg here. I've read that 350-400mg is about what you want for elemental dosage. I just ordered a 1kg tub of Mg Taurate from Vitaspace. I wonder if all of your dose coming from taurinate would give you more sleep/relaxation effects? I decided on the taurate because I don't particularly like the loose stool effect, taurine is cardioprotective and better for sleep/relaxation, and there was some concern that the citrate might increase retention of certain metals in the body (e.g. aluminum). These threads have great discussion on the different forms: Best Form of Supplemental Magnesium?, Bioavailability & elemental % of magnesium types.

I'd suggest 300mg as a good place to start with piracetam, but there's no harm in going lower if you're really worried. Do you take caffeine? It will tend to exacerbate any anxiety/jitters when combined with piracetam. I'd recommend Smart Powders, Mike has great customer service and is fairly active in our communities.

Is there some reason you wanted to take it in the morning? I usually time it to coincide with when I'll be using my brain the most, so these days I take a dose when I wake up, and another in the early afternoon. I can take it a few hours before bed and have no trouble getting to sleep, and I'm usually an insomniac. It might behoove you to wait until later in the morning or early afternoon, if your anxiety is strongest in the am.

Another thing you might want to look at is Bacopa. Combined with the magnesium it makes me very sleepy a few hours after I take them at night. I was taking it mainly for memory, but I seem to recall some mention of anxiety reduction as well. I actually stopped taking it a few nights ago, because it made me extremely groggy upon waking (I was taking about 130mg bacosides, which is a little high), but this might be a good thing for you?

Be sure to keep us posted!

Well, if 350-400mg is the elemental dosage then I guess I could squeeze some more in.

Other than what might be found in certain foods like the occasional chocolate, I'm pretty much caffeine free. So I've got that going for me.

I ordered from Smart Powders last night and received shipping notification today.

I was thinking morning just because it seemed the most common dosage time for those who only dosed once a day. I'll consider night when I find how it affects me, but I see some people say it helps them sleep and others note it keeps them up. A few hours after I wake sounds good though. I think that behooves me quite well actually. Enough past anxiety so as not to make it worse (nor cover its possible effects) and early enough to not ruin sleep.

Yes, many of the threads mentioned Bacopa for use with anxiety. It's definitely on the list of possible trials.

I'll keep ya posted. I'll be able to try it Monday, but might wait until Tuesday because Sunday I'll be having Superbowl beers and might not be my clearest on Monday.

[QwickyQuasar]

Give Theanine a try for the anxiety. I've had good luck with it.

[What'sAllThisThen]

Theanine is in one of my supplements already and I've had experience with it before and it does work.

How much Theanine can one take in a day?

[QwickyQuasar]

Theanine is in one of my supplements already and I've had experience with it before and it does work.

How much Theanine can one take in a day?

Haha. I realized that after I posted. There is no way to delete a post apparently.

800mg is the limit afaik. I usually take around 100-300mg, any more and I get tired.

[What'sAllThisThen]

How do I measure the piracetam? What would a 1/8 teaspoon flush with the brim be in mg?

[russianBEAR]

First of all, there's no "magic pill" which will make everything better all the time. You get desensetized to EVERY substance that enters your body, eventually getting less of an effect, and later getting more side effects, which you haven't had before. You know how they write: Common and Rare side effects in the manuakl? Well, the more you use anything, the more chance you have to get those rare side effects all the time...this is true of absolutely EVERY substance.

When I attended drug counseling some year back, they told me that every substance does the exact opposite going out as it does coming in. So if you feel relaxed on opiates, then you get angry and agitated for no reason...your cough/flu symptoms are suppressed for a long time - well you're gettin sick during your "crash"...etc. 

So, I dunno if it's really worth it, I'm still wondering what'll happen to my brain in about 10-20 years' time, since I've pretty much taken the whole catalog in combination with the rest of that catalog at some point.

Stuff like social anxiety and worrying about one's cognitive abilities on a day to day comparative basis is very often "all in your head". No single drug or nootropic will change you as a person - it's only working with what you got going on in your mind already. So if you're acting out of character on various substances, then it's some unresolved issues that you have to take a look at.

People put too much stake in their emotional state at any given time, because when you're stimulated (all noots are psychostimulants) you tend to believe your own hype much more, and start comparing to how much better off you are now compared to baseline...But there really is no change.

So the answer is: It's worth it if you know what you want to get out of it, and what you're striving for, and when to "face the music" and move on. Taking that stuff for "anxiety" and other "problems" will not do anything, unless you're already working towards eliminating their root cause, and using the substance to help you. But denial is a sweet domain, so people confuse one for the other...

Noots can easily be just like hard drugs in that sense...

Edited by russianBEAR, 08 February 2010 - 08:39 PM.

[What'sAllThisThen]

Thank you, very well written.

I agree completely that drugs are not the answer and I need to work on the source. Which is exactly what I'm doing. The noots are hoped to maybe give me that extra push of drive or focus or relaxation to help me on my journey. I wanted to know what I was getting into and whether it would be better to do that all on my own without drugs at all. I can't say that's not the case, but I have a lower expectation of the drugs now and a more realistic view as how I might use them so I will give them a try.



And for anyone reading, I still need help on how to convert teaspoon (flush with the brim) measurements of piracetam to mg.

[russianBEAR]

^

If you guys are investing loads into supplements, get a digital scale... you figure piracetam is taken by grams so any "drug-dealer-spec" scale should do.

My friend invested thousands into a scientific-grade scale...mesauring up to 0.001mg or something....says it's worth it, esp. when you gotta bust out 2.5 mg let's say

[chrono]

And for anyone reading, I still need help on how to convert teaspoon (flush with the brim) measurements of piracetam to mg.

I've done some tests with a very accurate scale; a level 1/4 teaspoon has a range of 740-820mg. I have a wonky kids' plastic spoon that gives 100mg less, so make sure you're using a modern metal one, with a well-defined lip. Also, this range was found after I'd crushed the piracetam fairly thoroughly with a mortar & pestle; this is important if you're measuring by volume, as it will clump over time. Putting a small amount in a smooth bowl and crushing it against the sides with a heavy spoon will work just as well.

A scale is really great to have. You can get one online for like $20. Look for one that measures down to 0.01g (10mg), though be aware that they usually have an accuracy of +/- 20-30mg.