62 replies to this topic

[oehaut]

Methylmercury cannot be negated by antioxidants, nor can hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, mad cow prions, salmonella, e coli, or basically any of the other toxins. The optimum dosage is none.

I can't help but think that about all of these can be avoided by choosing organic, grass-fed meat. At least the antibiotics, pesticides (which are also present with plant food), polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and methylmercury. Do you have hard data on how much of these can be found in meat, and much better, in grass-fed, organic raised meat? Also, most of the toxins are in the fatty part, so by choosing lean meat, and cutting off visible fat, I don't know how much one is really getting.

It looks like heterocyclic amines can be inhibited by polyphenols, althought maybe not all of them.

Effects of Rosemary Extracts on the Reduction of Heterocyclic Amines in Beef Patties

And then, most of the possible bacteria you name are, in fact, not that much occuring often. Do you have data on the occurence of mad cow disease or salmonella in meat eater? I'll try to see if I can find something today.

I guess the biggest concern with meat would be the AGEs and ALEs formed during cooking. But it looks like most of the problem with meat can be avoided or greatly minimized. Can't it?

But I can perfectly understand the vegan view. Why take any chance and not just supplements? It make sens to me. Maybe i'm not yet ready to drop it simply because I enjoy it. Are we sure that we know everything we need to supplement if we drop meat from the diet for optimal nutrition?

Thanks for the link to the meat post. I had missed that one.

Edited by oehaut, 27 February 2010 - 01:25 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

But it looks like most of the problem with meat can be avoided or greatly minimized. Can't it?

I admit that it is possible with enough effort to find healthy meats and prepare them in a way to minimize the negative effects. Small sustainably harvested fish and invertebrates that have been cooked with spices and proper oils at lower temperatures, and skinless properly marinated organic cage-free chicken, etc. Beef is more dubious in my opinion, no matter what the source is. Nevertheless, if you are doing all of that then I could hardly call you unhealthy or even unethical/unecological, but I have a strange feeling the vast majority of people do not put that amount of effort into it... even those that might be inclined to care. When you are in a restaurant, for instance, you just get what they have on the menu. Eating meat, in that case, means you are almost certainly paying (voting with your dollar) for corn-fed, factory farmed, high-AGE, toxic, unecological, and, yes, unethical garbage that you should never be putting in your body.

Lacto-Vegetarianism is much simpler.

But I can perfectly understand the vegan view. Why take any chance and not just supplements? It make sens to me.

Precisely

Maybe i'm not yet ready to drop it simply because I enjoy it..

Admitting the problem is the first step

Are we sure that we know everything we need to supplement if we drop meat from the diet for optimal nutrition?

Heck, even a completely unsupplemented vegetarian diet can sustain you for a long and healthy life, and has worked in India and elsewhere for centuries. And this is coming from a person who has stated in the past that vegetarians not supplementing with carninutrients are "committing violence upon their bodies." (I was trying to make a point)

Of course for optimal nutrition you do need the carninutrients. Do we know enough about them? We don't know everything, but certainly we know enough to cover the most important bases. You can get chemically-identical versions of virtually every important carninutrient, and chemically identical amino acid profiles and fatty acids in precise amounts. Having the ability to be precise via supplements actually gives you the flexibilty to adjust accordingly when new data comes in.

Cultured Meat will be here in the not-too-distant future, and that would allow a similar degree of precision. Supporting this new technology is one of the absolute most important causes in the world today.

Edited by progressive, 27 February 2010 - 02:09 PM.

[DairyProducts]

Debate is one thing, getting personal and defining someone elses statement with ad hominems to try and invalidate that personis something entirely different.

You're right TheFountain. I should not have said what I said like I did. I was very much in a bad mood when I wrote that (not that that is a good excuse) and I apologize for how I went after you.